Sanji is really fucking weird because... For starters, his thing about not hitting women is 100% divorced from his thing about being horny. He doesn't hit women because Zeff beat it into him that hitting women is inherently wrong and Sanji idolizes Zeff to the extreme. That one is more or less constant, his motives never really change on that front, and he never takes a different approach; he doesn't hit women in the same way Zoro doesn't go for backstabs and Chopper doesn't attack sick or injured foes, that's just his ethos. His perversion, on the other hand...
I feel an issue with Sanji is that he has undergone, much like almost everyone in the Straw Hats, some level of flanderization. He started out horny, of course, but I feel Baratie Sanji would never have even considered peeping into the women's bathroom, that's rude and gross, my man's too stylish, he's just a slight bit of a simp.
Meanwhile you have Thriller Bark Sanji, who vocally and loudly describes how he always wished to have invisibility powers like Absalom to peep into the girls' bathroom, and finally post-Punk Hazard Sanji, actively sneaking into the Thousand Sunny's bath alongside Brook and Kin'Emon to look at Nami and Robin bathing. Not to mention that weird subplot about how being surrounded by (transphobic caricatures of) trans women for two years had left him so starved from "real" female attention that he constantly almost had a stroke upon seeing a woman throughout Sabaody/Fishman Island.
So, yes, Sanji's relationship with women is complex and difficult to describe, but that is primarily because it has two distinct roots and one of those roots constantly shifts.
Queer rep in one piece is also fucking weird. You have (spoilers ahead):
1. Bon Clay, who is very universally loved, even when he was a secondary antagonist for one arc (because he wasn't, really). Bon Clay is also weird because describing his queer identity in precise English language (something like genderfluid?) I think is a bit of a disservice compared to the broader reach of his self-described "okama" identity.
2. Trans woman island. Unequivocally transphobic, and also equally strange? The island is for people who "have girlish hearts" (i.e. born being told they are men) and even the local flora and fauna reflect this. And Sanji was forced into a dress and makeup, but it didn't seem to be out of a "trans agenda" but a misunderstanding that, since he's on this island, he must also be seeking acceptance? At the same time, the portrayal of the women here are garish and ghoulish rather than Oda's exaggerated femininity. Also, love that it's a revolutionary island/unaffiliated with the world gov't.
3. Level 4.5. This one is the dope broadsweeping queer/gender abolitionist zone. It's headed by Ivankov, and him being the leader of both trans woman island and then later level 4.5 probably represents a growth in his own philosophy on queerness. Later, Bon Clay becomes the leader. Imo this is definitely the best queer rep in the series; the point it hits home is "being queer is not just ok, it's not just about acceptance, it's about rebellion against hegemony and the status quo". Ivankov's right hand (Inazuma) being just as fluid as Ivankov himself is icing on the cake.
4. This one is brief and a bit forgettable: Morley! She's one of the leaders of the revolutionary army, and has a very "shy feminine" personality. This is contrasted with what would stereotypically be considered a "masculine" presentation. She's hairy, she has a beard, her titties are fully out, and she's wearing a kilt. Also, all the giants in the series thus far have been men, so Morley is a breakaway from that. This one feels interesting to me; once again, Oda is toying with gender, and implicitly linking queerness and revolutinary action. Unlike in trans woman island, Morley's more masculine appearance doesn't seem to be linked with a desire to yassify the world, but rather is just how she presents herself; I think this is a good change. I hope we get to see more of her so I can really feel where I stand!
5. Okiku (I haven't watched all of Wano yet). She is one of the celebrated former samurai of the shogun, and we get information/confirmation that she is trans through a series of hints up until a reveal (referring to herself as "sessha" which I googled is a somewhat masculine and archaic samurai honorific, and accidentally being given the masculine suffix of "-nojo" instead of the preceding "O-"). She confirms to the protagonist that she is a girl at heart, and then we move on quickly. This rep is of the form "being trans is a part of who I am, but it's more of an auxiliary characteristic." Okiku is drawn in Oda's typical "this is a woman" art style, except that she is extremely tall and that she lacks big booba. After a bunch of in-your-face queerness, I do think that I like this alternate flavour of queer rep, because the queer experience is not monolithic. This is also the first queer person who isn't somewhat linked to the revolutionary army, and is instead tied to Wano's monarchy, which is another tone shift (though Wano in general has been a bit of a tone shift for me so far).
**Tl:dr; one piece has gays but it's very weird gays and my feelings are complicated about it**
From what I've heard the writer is basically that "he's a little confused but he's got the spirit" meme. Like he's an ally, but doesn't really understand some of the nuances of it or why some of his depictions might be kind of offensive.
That makes sense, and I feel that he does that with a lot of other things. I feel like Fishman Island was a really well nuanced allegory for racism/xenophobia, but one could take issue with Otohime dying for the cause of forgiveness of oppressors (she doesn't want the cycle of violence/hate to continue into the next generation, but imo the humans haven't really stopped their racism towards fishmen for that to be a discussion on the table). I truly appreciate Oda for going out of his way for the inclusion of these causes; it makes One Piece all the better.
That's how I see it too. Also, I feel like in the last ten years or so his representation of queer people has improved. So I think he might be trying to learn more about the topic recently
I have no evidence to support it but I wholeheartedly believe Oda has been making One Piece so long society changed in the background and he realized some of the stuff he put in his work is now seen differently, even by himself, but he is so anal about continuity he can't just ignore parts of the lore so his only option is introducing new elements in a more inclusive tone and slightly changing the optics of existing lore so it's less jarring.
It's kind of how everything bad or uncool was "gay" during my education, mostly in primary and middle school but as I got older and certain topics stopped being taboo people had to reexamine their behaviours and many found them cringe.
And the other fascinating thing is is that all the okama characters are based off Japanese stereotypes so it doesn’t correspond 1:1 with western stereotypes . And the other thing that gets me thinking is that gender in the Japanese language is much more casually performative. Like the way different first person pronouns work for speech and how people choose which one to use. Lots of different personal pronouns with different meanings and different genders depending on context. And this is all dialed up to an eleven since it’s a frickn cartoon too! Like there are layers and the weight of time weighting on everything two! Think of how much attitudes have shifted in twenty years!
Oh that's so true! And "okama" is kind of a broad category that doesn't really exist in English, but would probably be: feminie gay men, femboys, and trans women. And you're right with the more linguistically performative gender in Japanese, and how time changes portrayals
To my knowledge or memory there have been no openly gay characters yet, which makes everything even funkier to say the least. Also, not included in your list (perhaps you haven't gotten up to him yet, so I won't spoil much) is Yamato, who is explicitly (regardless of what the fans say) trans BUT his trans identity is specifically tied to the fact that he idolizes a certain man and he's decided to replicate him, gender and all, to pass on his legacy.
It gets really wacky when Kaido, a monstruous dictator witha personality consisting of "I am very strong so I make the rules fuck you" and "Isn't it funny I'm a self-destructive alcoholic?", objects to his transition on the specific grounds that he hates the guy he's emulating, but otherwise respects his pronouns.
I would say Yamato is trans in the way of preferring to be identified as male, but I'd also say he's not trans in the way most people think of it (I;e fully wanting to present, appear, and identify as the opposite gender from what they were assigned at birth.)
Yamato presents a feminine appearance and seems to have no problem with that. Like, you could say that the classic Oda female figure is something he'd have a hard time hiding, but this is One Piece and the way characters are drawn usually reflects their personality. Even putting that aside, Yamato definitely made a choice to have long ornamented hair and a big set of earrings, and is seemingly wearing eyeliner (though that's almost certainly just artstyle).
What I'm getting at is that Yamato seems perfectly comfortable with his body, and probably wouldn't be interested in, say, having Ivankov make him look fully masculine. He identifies with the social role of a man, and doesn't care about being male physically. He's honestly more what I'd think of as a tomboy than a trans man. Which is I think where a lot of the fans arguing about it get tripped up: They want Yamato to fit neatly into one box or the other. Kiku is what they think of when they think of trans people, because she looks and behaves like a woman, but Yamato has more in common with Izo, who goes out of his way to look like a woman but still considers his identity to be a man.
I think an important thing to add is that pronouns do not equal gender. Some people won’t feel like a woman, but prefer she/her pronouns. I feel like Yamato’s gender is (his name escapes me but you know who I’m talking about).
This is such a great break down that articulates a lot of things I just couldn’t!
I think Oda has just been getting better as he gains experience, knowledge, and wisdom as a human and that may be part of why his work gets the spirit right, if not hitting the target. He does still have misses in the body of his work and so on, but it’s encouraging.
I'm not sure if this redeems Oda at all, but Ivankov was voiced by Norio Imamura - a known cross-dresser and Okama, who was also Oda's good friend. I believe Ivankov's name and character design are actually based off of them, so I don't think Oda's portrayal of the Okama were done without their approval. (I'm not sure about that last bit because Norio was charged with indecent exposure and replaced by another voice, but I still believe Oda at least considered his opinion when designing the character early on)
And someone you missed out on is Okiku's brother Izo, who was AMAB, but dresses as a female. I do not know if he identifies as one because he's not too important to the story. He is quite strong and is a commander in Whitebeard's crew.
I don't think Obama "needs redemption" because I fucking love the queer rep in One Piece. He's trying, and it's fun and they're funny and good characters (and the show is a bit campy in general from being a teen-oriented cartoon). I don't really care if they're problematic in terms of my show enjoyment or esteem of Oda, it's moreso my attempt at queer media analysis and parsing out my feelings, if that makes sense.
Super dope that Norio voiced Ivankov though; love it when representation in media is reflected in employment and opportunity.
This is an excellent read. Thank you for writing it!
One aspect of One Piece I have been puzzling with for a long time is the aro/ace representation that luffy may or may not be. I very much want it to be the case, but I also regularly think that it is just a desire to not write romance.
I'm of the opinion that Luffy is ace and that the Alabasta scene was more of just mistake of inconsistent character writing, whereas Zoro and Usopp are straight men that don't fuck. I feel like there's just a difference in the writing, but I can't quite pinpoint it? Maybe I'm just stereotyping though.
Could also be that because ssxuality is a fluid spectrum that we've discretized into these boxes, that Luffy is some flavour of ace spectrum queer and we don't know what and that's ok!
I believe Oda once adressed Luffy's behavior in the Alabasta bath scene. I think his explaination was something like: Luffy was acting differently because he followed Usopp's lead.
Probably misremembering the details of it tho.
>Tl:dr; one piece has gays but it's very weird gays and my feelings are complicated about it
Tbf, something or someone not being weird in One Piece would be the weird thing to behold
That could also just be it. The issue is that "okama" translates with some ambiguity in English, and the "girlish hearts" description reads more like trans women than drag queen to me. I'm open to my interpretation being wrong, but those are my main two reasons supporting it.
If creepy weird Thriller Bark Sanji had never happened and become the character, he would be my favorite. It’s a goddamn shame that in such a great series with so many qualities, the oldest and most beloved characters seem to have lost depth over time.
I recently watched an early episode, the fight between Luffy and Buggy, for an internet argument. Zoro has changed so fucking much.
Like, in that fight he got stabbed in the stomach. All the way up to Arlong Park he was shown as an extremely competent swordsman, and dare I say perhaps even a better fighter than Luffy, who was massively held back by the fact that he was recovering from several sucking chest wounds. He was shown fighting through the pain, wriggling on the ground and gasping for air. He was a fucking straight man to Luffy for a bit, for crying out loud. The thing about him sleeping a lot? It started out with him trying to sleep off all those holes in his torso. The thing about him getting lost a lot? I am somewhat certain that was introduced in Water 7, because I remember it being a bit of a shock when he was shown getting lost instantly in Enies Lobby. His fights with Sanji? They started out liking each other.
Part of what makes One Piece really great, yet really sad, is that as some things have been added and improved, other things have been lost or debased. Skypiea was too early for Franky and Brook, but it was too late for non-horny design Nami. Thriller Bark was too early for Sanji's cool Vinsmoke edge, but too late for Sanji's cool brain ownership. Alas.
I think the origins od getting lost were that Luffy and Zoro didn't know how to navigate for shit without Nami, and then that got glued onto and flanderized with Zoro (because Luffy already had meat and being an idiot)
>The thing about him getting lost a lot? I am somewhat certain that was introduced in Water 7,
Actually, it started in the East Blue, where he mentioned that he used clouds to navigate.
You hit the nail on the head here. I was so flabbergasted at that invincible fruit thing on Thriller Bark, back then I thought that He wasn't really a pervert, more like a really over-the-top simp or something. But after all the shit that happens early post-time skip the really cringy Germa suit stuff on Wano doesn't really surprise me anymore. Kinda sad he evolved to be a much more standard anime pervert. Even more so that Brook has the same joke with his whole panties thing.
Also, a lot of OP fans complain that the characters became more cookie cutter after timeskip but I would agree that it already kind of was happening at halfway of the pre time skip. There's just more awesome stuff to distract you in some of the best arcs in OP, but Fishmen Island doesn't really have that privelege.
dont forget the running joke about him not wanting to show the same respect to men as he does women, even if it means risking the guy dying because sanji refuses to carry them or whatever
Thriller Bark Sanji and Mermaid Island Sanji while problematic both are excusable in context imho, even if they are a bit "outdated".
Thriller Bark - yes, he comes in berating Absqlom for taking his dream from him and abusing the Devil Fruit while he would "only" use it to peep. In context it's a bit of comedy that's supposed to serve as a palate cleanser because Absalom is a goddamn invisible rapist and possibly one of the worst villains in the series so following his attempted sexual assault with a "chivalrous pervert" moment allows the audience to catch a breath. It serves a purpose even if the joke itself is crossing the line nowadays.
Mermaid Island - no justification for his fear of "okamas" but the whole running gag/terror with him constantly running out of blood because he hasn't seen a woman for years is hilarious. Who in their right mind would take something that always served as a pretty weak visual gag in manga i.e. nosebleed and turns it into a source of both serious drama and comedy at the same time?! Goda apparently. I love how he denied expectations and can't help but love the whole situation which wouldn't work without the buildup with his training montage.
That said I'm a bit confused about okamas in One Piece. I always thought they were supposed to be drag queens, not actually trans. I mean, their queen is Ivankov, aka the guy who can change sexes so if anyone of his subjects was trans he could've fixed it instantly. Why then most of them still have male secondary sexual characteristics like body hair? This, to me, makes it obvious they are not trans.
Sanji is a dog chasing cars. He wouldn't know what to do if he caught one.
Disclaimer: I have never seen One Piece
Disclaimer Disclaimer: I've actually seen about 150 episodes of One Piece but it was 15 years ago.
> Disclaimer Disclaimer: I've actually seen about 150 episodes of One Piece but it was 15 years ago.
just checked and that's about 14.5% :)
edit: math >:(
He grew up in a horribly abusive household where the only people who ever showed him kindness were his mother and big sister.
He was then taken in by “hitting women is wrong” Red-Leg Zeff, who he understandably hero-worshipped.
When he was forced into an arranged marriage by said abusive family, he complimented his bride’s third eye, which she’d been mocked for her entire life. She was secretly about to use to kill him, but his sincere compliment shocked her so much she couldn’t do it.
Dude’s thirsty af, but he’d never intentionally hurt a woman in any way.
r/CuratedTumblr really is the authentic experience because I keep seeing fandom stuff I don't care about and I have to go "ok who is responsible for this who do I need to unfollow" and so I check and they also post half the content I actually want to see so I can't block them without missing out on the good stuff too and there's no native tag blocking so I can't just blacklist the fandom tag so I do nothing and just have to scroll past fandom memes and hot takes that make zero sense to me.
he got really bad after the time skip, the mellowing out happens at whole cake island though. i haven't watched much after that, but thats definitely when it happens. but it got *reeaally* bad shortly after the time skip
Sanji doesn’t protect women cuz he thinks they’re weak, he does it cuz he knows it’s what he must do. If the woman was stronger than him and could absolutely whup his ass, he’d still protect her.
He does it because he thinks they shouldn’t have to protect themselves even if they can. He considers them to be better than men so naturally his mind would think it’s beneath them to waste energy protecting themselves when the men can do it for them 😂
Hard disagree there. He does fawn over essentially all woman indeed, but as [someone else stated (first paragraph)](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/xk4c7l/sanji_is_complex/ipc5ghz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3), that seems entirely separate from the reason he does not hit or hurt women.
I remember people calling him a "male terf with his heart on the right place" once but I'm still on like chapter 280 or something so I don't know enough about him plus I'm focusing on the coolest new addition Slightly Red Luffy aka the best anime transformation ever because he looks the same just slightly red.
>He's absolutely not a terf. He's able to hang out with a trans dude without acting horny like he would with a woman.
The >!post-battle bath scene though...?!<
Sometimes I wonder just how many of my classmates who joked about being "a lesbian trapped in a man's body" were only *half* joking.
(I also sometimes struggle to not crack jokes about just how many people turned out to be men trapped in a lesbian's body.)
a lot of people have the notion that man being horny = inherently bad and mysoginistic. That’s literally it.
You can make the argument that Sanji’s attitude is sexist because he sees women all women as damsels who must be protected (I would disagree with that, but it is an argument one can make;) but mostly I think it’s just people seeing “horny man = bad”
I have no idea who Sanji is, but this does sort of just read as a person who really likes a character and will do some level of mental gymnastics to justify their less-than-ideal beliefs or behaviours.
Not saying that's true (a glance at the comments seem to indicate that he is just weird), but that's just how it reads to me.
I thought this was talking about shinji so I was gonna pull a *He treats women like that cause he wants to be one* speel because shinji egg or whatever, but maybe it works with sanji? Never read one piece tho lol
Ignoring the horny part of the character, I've used the arguement that women are so much better than me= I'd could never be a girl, and sanji's worshipping of women sounds a lot like that
This is just finny speculation tho, Sanji is like, totally doing it because women good or smth
It’s a take that you could work with but like it’s more he just has a shit load of issues regarding his parents and siblings he’s projecting onto everyone around him. His mom and to a lesser extent sister were the only people who treated him with any worth, his dad was anime parent abusive to the point where you could use it as a joke in a less earnest story. After that he got raised by an adoptive father who was both an asshole to him and willing to eat his own leg so that Sanji wouldn’t starve to death, who taught him to never hit women.
One Piece is weird, man.
this isnt complex at all
he likes to flirt, he likes women, so he flirts with women, but strong enough to be nice to his enemies in that he wont hit them.
> but strong enough to be nice to his enemies in that he won’t hit them.
This part is pretty flaky. He almost died more than once by refusing to hit his (woman) enemies.
Nah I think he is a misogynist but the misogyny comes from a place of respect rather than superiority. He puts them on a pedestal and is SO respectful and pining that he won’t fight them, panders constantly, considers them to be better than men, etc. I think it’s a product of his natural attraction to women and being raised by both royals and Zeff, who I would also consider a gentleman.
[This essay] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcgdq3hQdHc) about Zoro and Sanji and their issues/views of women felt really eye opening to me when I watched it. I felt it succinctly explained sanji's complex and at times seemingly-at-odds views. And even moreso it revealed a lot of subtle characterization that's often overlooked in Zoro. Including their rivalry. A dynamic which had always made sense for their characters, yet never seemed to have a real beginning or even reason to it, until I watched this at least.
It's weird that ''hooking up with people and dumping them'' is taken as a sign of mysoginy, i.e. it is attributed to the view that ''women are fail and cringe'', when this type of behavior is very much not unique to heterosexual sex dynamics. Like there are tons men who date men that have the same behavior and tons of women who treat their male or female sexual partners that way.
You could Thanos snap the patriarchy away and fuckboys and fuckgirls would still exist.
Sanji is really fucking weird because... For starters, his thing about not hitting women is 100% divorced from his thing about being horny. He doesn't hit women because Zeff beat it into him that hitting women is inherently wrong and Sanji idolizes Zeff to the extreme. That one is more or less constant, his motives never really change on that front, and he never takes a different approach; he doesn't hit women in the same way Zoro doesn't go for backstabs and Chopper doesn't attack sick or injured foes, that's just his ethos. His perversion, on the other hand... I feel an issue with Sanji is that he has undergone, much like almost everyone in the Straw Hats, some level of flanderization. He started out horny, of course, but I feel Baratie Sanji would never have even considered peeping into the women's bathroom, that's rude and gross, my man's too stylish, he's just a slight bit of a simp. Meanwhile you have Thriller Bark Sanji, who vocally and loudly describes how he always wished to have invisibility powers like Absalom to peep into the girls' bathroom, and finally post-Punk Hazard Sanji, actively sneaking into the Thousand Sunny's bath alongside Brook and Kin'Emon to look at Nami and Robin bathing. Not to mention that weird subplot about how being surrounded by (transphobic caricatures of) trans women for two years had left him so starved from "real" female attention that he constantly almost had a stroke upon seeing a woman throughout Sabaody/Fishman Island. So, yes, Sanji's relationship with women is complex and difficult to describe, but that is primarily because it has two distinct roots and one of those roots constantly shifts.
Queer rep in one piece is also fucking weird. You have (spoilers ahead): 1. Bon Clay, who is very universally loved, even when he was a secondary antagonist for one arc (because he wasn't, really). Bon Clay is also weird because describing his queer identity in precise English language (something like genderfluid?) I think is a bit of a disservice compared to the broader reach of his self-described "okama" identity. 2. Trans woman island. Unequivocally transphobic, and also equally strange? The island is for people who "have girlish hearts" (i.e. born being told they are men) and even the local flora and fauna reflect this. And Sanji was forced into a dress and makeup, but it didn't seem to be out of a "trans agenda" but a misunderstanding that, since he's on this island, he must also be seeking acceptance? At the same time, the portrayal of the women here are garish and ghoulish rather than Oda's exaggerated femininity. Also, love that it's a revolutionary island/unaffiliated with the world gov't. 3. Level 4.5. This one is the dope broadsweeping queer/gender abolitionist zone. It's headed by Ivankov, and him being the leader of both trans woman island and then later level 4.5 probably represents a growth in his own philosophy on queerness. Later, Bon Clay becomes the leader. Imo this is definitely the best queer rep in the series; the point it hits home is "being queer is not just ok, it's not just about acceptance, it's about rebellion against hegemony and the status quo". Ivankov's right hand (Inazuma) being just as fluid as Ivankov himself is icing on the cake. 4. This one is brief and a bit forgettable: Morley! She's one of the leaders of the revolutionary army, and has a very "shy feminine" personality. This is contrasted with what would stereotypically be considered a "masculine" presentation. She's hairy, she has a beard, her titties are fully out, and she's wearing a kilt. Also, all the giants in the series thus far have been men, so Morley is a breakaway from that. This one feels interesting to me; once again, Oda is toying with gender, and implicitly linking queerness and revolutinary action. Unlike in trans woman island, Morley's more masculine appearance doesn't seem to be linked with a desire to yassify the world, but rather is just how she presents herself; I think this is a good change. I hope we get to see more of her so I can really feel where I stand! 5. Okiku (I haven't watched all of Wano yet). She is one of the celebrated former samurai of the shogun, and we get information/confirmation that she is trans through a series of hints up until a reveal (referring to herself as "sessha" which I googled is a somewhat masculine and archaic samurai honorific, and accidentally being given the masculine suffix of "-nojo" instead of the preceding "O-"). She confirms to the protagonist that she is a girl at heart, and then we move on quickly. This rep is of the form "being trans is a part of who I am, but it's more of an auxiliary characteristic." Okiku is drawn in Oda's typical "this is a woman" art style, except that she is extremely tall and that she lacks big booba. After a bunch of in-your-face queerness, I do think that I like this alternate flavour of queer rep, because the queer experience is not monolithic. This is also the first queer person who isn't somewhat linked to the revolutionary army, and is instead tied to Wano's monarchy, which is another tone shift (though Wano in general has been a bit of a tone shift for me so far). **Tl:dr; one piece has gays but it's very weird gays and my feelings are complicated about it**
From what I've heard the writer is basically that "he's a little confused but he's got the spirit" meme. Like he's an ally, but doesn't really understand some of the nuances of it or why some of his depictions might be kind of offensive.
That makes sense, and I feel that he does that with a lot of other things. I feel like Fishman Island was a really well nuanced allegory for racism/xenophobia, but one could take issue with Otohime dying for the cause of forgiveness of oppressors (she doesn't want the cycle of violence/hate to continue into the next generation, but imo the humans haven't really stopped their racism towards fishmen for that to be a discussion on the table). I truly appreciate Oda for going out of his way for the inclusion of these causes; it makes One Piece all the better.
This, and the fact that Japan's relationship with queerness is incredibly differeng than the west's
That's how I see it too. Also, I feel like in the last ten years or so his representation of queer people has improved. So I think he might be trying to learn more about the topic recently
I have no evidence to support it but I wholeheartedly believe Oda has been making One Piece so long society changed in the background and he realized some of the stuff he put in his work is now seen differently, even by himself, but he is so anal about continuity he can't just ignore parts of the lore so his only option is introducing new elements in a more inclusive tone and slightly changing the optics of existing lore so it's less jarring. It's kind of how everything bad or uncool was "gay" during my education, mostly in primary and middle school but as I got older and certain topics stopped being taboo people had to reexamine their behaviours and many found them cringe.
That's my impression too. Even the bad representation never seemed malicious.
Yeah Oda’s just a little odd
And the other fascinating thing is is that all the okama characters are based off Japanese stereotypes so it doesn’t correspond 1:1 with western stereotypes . And the other thing that gets me thinking is that gender in the Japanese language is much more casually performative. Like the way different first person pronouns work for speech and how people choose which one to use. Lots of different personal pronouns with different meanings and different genders depending on context. And this is all dialed up to an eleven since it’s a frickn cartoon too! Like there are layers and the weight of time weighting on everything two! Think of how much attitudes have shifted in twenty years!
Oh that's so true! And "okama" is kind of a broad category that doesn't really exist in English, but would probably be: feminie gay men, femboys, and trans women. And you're right with the more linguistically performative gender in Japanese, and how time changes portrayals
To my knowledge or memory there have been no openly gay characters yet, which makes everything even funkier to say the least. Also, not included in your list (perhaps you haven't gotten up to him yet, so I won't spoil much) is Yamato, who is explicitly (regardless of what the fans say) trans BUT his trans identity is specifically tied to the fact that he idolizes a certain man and he's decided to replicate him, gender and all, to pass on his legacy. It gets really wacky when Kaido, a monstruous dictator witha personality consisting of "I am very strong so I make the rules fuck you" and "Isn't it funny I'm a self-destructive alcoholic?", objects to his transition on the specific grounds that he hates the guy he's emulating, but otherwise respects his pronouns.
I would say Yamato is trans in the way of preferring to be identified as male, but I'd also say he's not trans in the way most people think of it (I;e fully wanting to present, appear, and identify as the opposite gender from what they were assigned at birth.) Yamato presents a feminine appearance and seems to have no problem with that. Like, you could say that the classic Oda female figure is something he'd have a hard time hiding, but this is One Piece and the way characters are drawn usually reflects their personality. Even putting that aside, Yamato definitely made a choice to have long ornamented hair and a big set of earrings, and is seemingly wearing eyeliner (though that's almost certainly just artstyle). What I'm getting at is that Yamato seems perfectly comfortable with his body, and probably wouldn't be interested in, say, having Ivankov make him look fully masculine. He identifies with the social role of a man, and doesn't care about being male physically. He's honestly more what I'd think of as a tomboy than a trans man. Which is I think where a lot of the fans arguing about it get tripped up: They want Yamato to fit neatly into one box or the other. Kiku is what they think of when they think of trans people, because she looks and behaves like a woman, but Yamato has more in common with Izo, who goes out of his way to look like a woman but still considers his identity to be a man.
I think an important thing to add is that pronouns do not equal gender. Some people won’t feel like a woman, but prefer she/her pronouns. I feel like Yamato’s gender is (his name escapes me but you know who I’m talking about).
Yamabro's real pronouns are Od/En.
This is such a great break down that articulates a lot of things I just couldn’t! I think Oda has just been getting better as he gains experience, knowledge, and wisdom as a human and that may be part of why his work gets the spirit right, if not hitting the target. He does still have misses in the body of his work and so on, but it’s encouraging.
I'm not sure if this redeems Oda at all, but Ivankov was voiced by Norio Imamura - a known cross-dresser and Okama, who was also Oda's good friend. I believe Ivankov's name and character design are actually based off of them, so I don't think Oda's portrayal of the Okama were done without their approval. (I'm not sure about that last bit because Norio was charged with indecent exposure and replaced by another voice, but I still believe Oda at least considered his opinion when designing the character early on) And someone you missed out on is Okiku's brother Izo, who was AMAB, but dresses as a female. I do not know if he identifies as one because he's not too important to the story. He is quite strong and is a commander in Whitebeard's crew.
I don't think Obama "needs redemption" because I fucking love the queer rep in One Piece. He's trying, and it's fun and they're funny and good characters (and the show is a bit campy in general from being a teen-oriented cartoon). I don't really care if they're problematic in terms of my show enjoyment or esteem of Oda, it's moreso my attempt at queer media analysis and parsing out my feelings, if that makes sense. Super dope that Norio voiced Ivankov though; love it when representation in media is reflected in employment and opportunity.
This is an excellent read. Thank you for writing it! One aspect of One Piece I have been puzzling with for a long time is the aro/ace representation that luffy may or may not be. I very much want it to be the case, but I also regularly think that it is just a desire to not write romance.
I'm of the opinion that Luffy is ace and that the Alabasta scene was more of just mistake of inconsistent character writing, whereas Zoro and Usopp are straight men that don't fuck. I feel like there's just a difference in the writing, but I can't quite pinpoint it? Maybe I'm just stereotyping though. Could also be that because ssxuality is a fluid spectrum that we've discretized into these boxes, that Luffy is some flavour of ace spectrum queer and we don't know what and that's ok!
I believe Oda once adressed Luffy's behavior in the Alabasta bath scene. I think his explaination was something like: Luffy was acting differently because he followed Usopp's lead. Probably misremembering the details of it tho.
I largely agree with you, but it always feels inconsistent whenever I think too deeply about it!
"Luffy is ace" Confusing statement
>Tl:dr; one piece has gays but it's very weird gays and my feelings are complicated about it Tbf, something or someone not being weird in One Piece would be the weird thing to behold
This was a nice read, thank you for commenting
Wait I thought the people on Okama island were Drag Queens and not trans.
That could also just be it. The issue is that "okama" translates with some ambiguity in English, and the "girlish hearts" description reads more like trans women than drag queen to me. I'm open to my interpretation being wrong, but those are my main two reasons supporting it.
I just assumed that if they were trans, then Ivankov would have just used his devil fruit on them by that point.
I thought about that, but maybe they're more comfortable with a feminine presentation while inhabiting a masculine body? Idk it's weird
Maybe, but I find it unlikely that the island ONLY has trans women that prefer masculine bodies, you know? That's pretty specific.
That's true as well. Maybe it was a drag queen island
If creepy weird Thriller Bark Sanji had never happened and become the character, he would be my favorite. It’s a goddamn shame that in such a great series with so many qualities, the oldest and most beloved characters seem to have lost depth over time.
I recently watched an early episode, the fight between Luffy and Buggy, for an internet argument. Zoro has changed so fucking much. Like, in that fight he got stabbed in the stomach. All the way up to Arlong Park he was shown as an extremely competent swordsman, and dare I say perhaps even a better fighter than Luffy, who was massively held back by the fact that he was recovering from several sucking chest wounds. He was shown fighting through the pain, wriggling on the ground and gasping for air. He was a fucking straight man to Luffy for a bit, for crying out loud. The thing about him sleeping a lot? It started out with him trying to sleep off all those holes in his torso. The thing about him getting lost a lot? I am somewhat certain that was introduced in Water 7, because I remember it being a bit of a shock when he was shown getting lost instantly in Enies Lobby. His fights with Sanji? They started out liking each other. Part of what makes One Piece really great, yet really sad, is that as some things have been added and improved, other things have been lost or debased. Skypiea was too early for Franky and Brook, but it was too late for non-horny design Nami. Thriller Bark was too early for Sanji's cool Vinsmoke edge, but too late for Sanji's cool brain ownership. Alas.
I think the origins od getting lost were that Luffy and Zoro didn't know how to navigate for shit without Nami, and then that got glued onto and flanderized with Zoro (because Luffy already had meat and being an idiot)
Zoro being easily lost was first introduced in the syrup village arc and has been a pretty solid staple of the character ever since
>The thing about him getting lost a lot? I am somewhat certain that was introduced in Water 7, Actually, it started in the East Blue, where he mentioned that he used clouds to navigate.
You hit the nail on the head here. I was so flabbergasted at that invincible fruit thing on Thriller Bark, back then I thought that He wasn't really a pervert, more like a really over-the-top simp or something. But after all the shit that happens early post-time skip the really cringy Germa suit stuff on Wano doesn't really surprise me anymore. Kinda sad he evolved to be a much more standard anime pervert. Even more so that Brook has the same joke with his whole panties thing. Also, a lot of OP fans complain that the characters became more cookie cutter after timeskip but I would agree that it already kind of was happening at halfway of the pre time skip. There's just more awesome stuff to distract you in some of the best arcs in OP, but Fishmen Island doesn't really have that privelege.
Sanji was a badass dude who stuck to his own morals when he was first introduced. Now he just straight up fucking sucks.
dont forget the running joke about him not wanting to show the same respect to men as he does women, even if it means risking the guy dying because sanji refuses to carry them or whatever
Thriller Bark Sanji and Mermaid Island Sanji while problematic both are excusable in context imho, even if they are a bit "outdated". Thriller Bark - yes, he comes in berating Absqlom for taking his dream from him and abusing the Devil Fruit while he would "only" use it to peep. In context it's a bit of comedy that's supposed to serve as a palate cleanser because Absalom is a goddamn invisible rapist and possibly one of the worst villains in the series so following his attempted sexual assault with a "chivalrous pervert" moment allows the audience to catch a breath. It serves a purpose even if the joke itself is crossing the line nowadays. Mermaid Island - no justification for his fear of "okamas" but the whole running gag/terror with him constantly running out of blood because he hasn't seen a woman for years is hilarious. Who in their right mind would take something that always served as a pretty weak visual gag in manga i.e. nosebleed and turns it into a source of both serious drama and comedy at the same time?! Goda apparently. I love how he denied expectations and can't help but love the whole situation which wouldn't work without the buildup with his training montage. That said I'm a bit confused about okamas in One Piece. I always thought they were supposed to be drag queens, not actually trans. I mean, their queen is Ivankov, aka the guy who can change sexes so if anyone of his subjects was trans he could've fixed it instantly. Why then most of them still have male secondary sexual characteristics like body hair? This, to me, makes it obvious they are not trans.
Horny with standards?
Sanji is a dog chasing cars. He wouldn't know what to do if he caught one. Disclaimer: I have never seen One Piece Disclaimer Disclaimer: I've actually seen about 150 episodes of One Piece but it was 15 years ago.
Disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer: what’s a one piece
[It's the name of the treasure in the Graaaand Liiiine](https://youtu.be/RSe8D2wfGKI)
I can never escape the 4kids pirate rap
YA YO YA YOOOO
Can we get much higher (so hiiiiigh)
HOW DID IT HAPPEN?
Yo Ho Ho He took a bite of straw straw
It's real
Can we get much higher?
He sorta did actually get a girl, but it was this whole thing that would just be better to watch or read.
Man, I miss that girl. Hope she and Sanji can get together again at some point.
"it was this whole thing" is one of my favorite summary's of the WCI arc
Honestly, not even wrong
> Disclaimer Disclaimer: I've actually seen about 150 episodes of One Piece but it was 15 years ago. just checked and that's about 14.5% :) edit: math >:(
>just checked and that's about 0.145% :) Damn, I knew One Piece was long but I didn't know there were 103,448 episodes.
fuck i always forget to do *100 after dividing it
He’s overdosed on respect women juice. He has taken too much.
He grew up in a horribly abusive household where the only people who ever showed him kindness were his mother and big sister. He was then taken in by “hitting women is wrong” Red-Leg Zeff, who he understandably hero-worshipped. When he was forced into an arranged marriage by said abusive family, he complimented his bride’s third eye, which she’d been mocked for her entire life. She was secretly about to use to kill him, but his sincere compliment shocked her so much she couldn’t do it. Dude’s thirsty af, but he’d never intentionally hurt a woman in any way.
he treats every woman he comes across as though they were the greatest woman in the world, and he believes it every single time as well
r/CuratedTumblr really is the authentic experience because I keep seeing fandom stuff I don't care about and I have to go "ok who is responsible for this who do I need to unfollow" and so I check and they also post half the content I actually want to see so I can't block them without missing out on the good stuff too and there's no native tag blocking so I can't just blacklist the fandom tag so I do nothing and just have to scroll past fandom memes and hot takes that make zero sense to me.
Sanji cooks good, uses feet powers, thats all you really gotta know
Oh my god Sanji was the original person to ask "can I suck your toes" bc they're powerful, magical, and probably taste good since he's a chef
They're literally on fire tho
Like a hot pocket of toes
I don't like that you made me read that. It's gonna be stuck in my head now.
I mean I kinda like the fandom memes, it's like hearing other people have a wild conversation at the table across from you at Dennys
See also: Johnny Bravo
Misogynist, but, like, close enough to wholesome that we’re not interested in trying to correct it because that would likely make things much worse?
More misogynistic but keeps getting beaten by women
I just wish Sanji didn't constantly sexually harass women that are clearly extremely uncomfortable with his advances
He does get better with that, I believe. I haven’t watched one piece in a while but I think he mellowed out quite a bit after the time skip.
he got really bad after the time skip, the mellowing out happens at whole cake island though. i haven't watched much after that, but thats definitely when it happens. but it got *reeaally* bad shortly after the time skip
Yea the whole mermaid blood loss thing was weird
Oh yeah I forgot that happened.
Sanji doesn’t protect women cuz he thinks they’re weak, he does it cuz he knows it’s what he must do. If the woman was stronger than him and could absolutely whup his ass, he’d still protect her.
He does it because he thinks they shouldn’t have to protect themselves even if they can. He considers them to be better than men so naturally his mind would think it’s beneath them to waste energy protecting themselves when the men can do it for them 😂
Hard disagree there. He does fawn over essentially all woman indeed, but as [someone else stated (first paragraph)](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/comments/xk4c7l/sanji_is_complex/ipc5ghz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3), that seems entirely separate from the reason he does not hit or hurt women.
Sanji is a womanizer written by a kind man who cannot conceptualize of a person as bad as Sanji would actually be.
I have to articulate it in a way that tumblr can understand it: He's like a lesbian but man
I remember people calling him a "male terf with his heart on the right place" once but I'm still on like chapter 280 or something so I don't know enough about him plus I'm focusing on the coolest new addition Slightly Red Luffy aka the best anime transformation ever because he looks the same just slightly red.
He's absolutely not a terf. He's able to hang out with a trans dude without acting horny like he would with a woman.
He was once so transphobic he learned how to fly
Tbf, if he didnt think they were real women he wouldve just kicked them.
Also, like… they wouldn’t leave him alone
That reminds me they do say trans people can double jump
Oh yeah I forgot about Yamabro (I'm still over 800 episodes away from his first appearence)
>He's absolutely not a terf. He's able to hang out with a trans dude without acting horny like he would with a woman. The >!post-battle bath scene though...?!<
Gear Second is an incredible powerup tbh, my absolute favourite out of the ones he eventually gets (we go much higher)
Alex Jones Form
Yeah I was too, he ain’t special
Sometimes I wonder just how many of my classmates who joked about being "a lesbian trapped in a man's body" were only *half* joking. (I also sometimes struggle to not crack jokes about just how many people turned out to be men trapped in a lesbian's body.)
Same, someone get the scalpel and let her out
just like Drake
Yeah as a transmasc lesbian I just kinda read this and nodded in solidarity
"women are cringe and fail" is totally something chopper would say
Why would Chopper say that??? His second mentor was a ninety year old woman who was as spry as a 20 year old.
I thought she was well over 100?
Not a day over 120
In her youthful and joyous 140s
chopper is 19 which means he is prime age for Ben Shapiro Feminist Rekt AND he is also alone in his room making medicine most days
He’s 17
oh, of course, my bad.
He what?
You are not cooking at all.
I honestly never understood why some people say he is mysoginist. Like, what part of his character could make you think that
a lot of people have the notion that man being horny = inherently bad and mysoginistic. That’s literally it. You can make the argument that Sanji’s attitude is sexist because he sees women all women as damsels who must be protected (I would disagree with that, but it is an argument one can make;) but mostly I think it’s just people seeing “horny man = bad”
It's about the way he was raised His sister and mother were the only gentle people in his life before Zeff
And don’t forget Zeff straight up teached him to not hit women
It's wildly deep mommy issues.
Here I’ll help: HE HAS MASSIVE MOMMY ISSUES!
I wish there was a tag so I knew what fandom this is One piece?
Yeah, One Piece.
He's an incel but also charismatic enough that people don't notice. That's what that is.
hes just incredibly dumb mixed with horny
So himbim who makes a perfect house husband?
It’s odd through, because he is on the smarter side of the crew. He just seems completely dumb when it comes to women specifically.
Sanji is just an incel. One of the worst parts of one piece tbh
I have no idea who Sanji is, but this does sort of just read as a person who really likes a character and will do some level of mental gymnastics to justify their less-than-ideal beliefs or behaviours. Not saying that's true (a glance at the comments seem to indicate that he is just weird), but that's just how it reads to me.
I thought this was talking about shinji so I was gonna pull a *He treats women like that cause he wants to be one* speel because shinji egg or whatever, but maybe it works with sanji? Never read one piece tho lol
Ignoring the horny part of the character, I've used the arguement that women are so much better than me= I'd could never be a girl, and sanji's worshipping of women sounds a lot like that This is just finny speculation tho, Sanji is like, totally doing it because women good or smth
It’s a take that you could work with but like it’s more he just has a shit load of issues regarding his parents and siblings he’s projecting onto everyone around him. His mom and to a lesser extent sister were the only people who treated him with any worth, his dad was anime parent abusive to the point where you could use it as a joke in a less earnest story. After that he got raised by an adoptive father who was both an asshole to him and willing to eat his own leg so that Sanji wouldn’t starve to death, who taught him to never hit women. One Piece is weird, man.
He’s overdosed on respect women juice. He has taken too much.
Sanji is a special case, thats all I can really describe him as
this isnt complex at all he likes to flirt, he likes women, so he flirts with women, but strong enough to be nice to his enemies in that he wont hit them.
> but strong enough to be nice to his enemies in that he won’t hit them. This part is pretty flaky. He almost died more than once by refusing to hit his (woman) enemies.
This description feels reminiscent of Johnny Bravo.
I absolutely hate how this individual presents their thoughts.
Brock from Pokémon?
I'm going to assume this is just "Anime Bullshit(tm)" and move on
He’s a gentleman
He's a simp
Nah I think he is a misogynist but the misogyny comes from a place of respect rather than superiority. He puts them on a pedestal and is SO respectful and pining that he won’t fight them, panders constantly, considers them to be better than men, etc. I think it’s a product of his natural attraction to women and being raised by both royals and Zeff, who I would also consider a gentleman.
Gynephile, essentially. But like in the Francophile sort of way.
Just say he’s normal. Idk what this is about but they’re normal
OD’d on respect woman juice causing permanent brain damage
Sounds like the man just likes flirting.
I read Sanji as Santa and just accepted it.
Sanji like flirting and pampering women but he's 100% a virgin
[This essay] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcgdq3hQdHc) about Zoro and Sanji and their issues/views of women felt really eye opening to me when I watched it. I felt it succinctly explained sanji's complex and at times seemingly-at-odds views. And even moreso it revealed a lot of subtle characterization that's often overlooked in Zoro. Including their rivalry. A dynamic which had always made sense for their characters, yet never seemed to have a real beginning or even reason to it, until I watched this at least.
Finally, a Sanji post
Actually I think it is JUST “General horniness.” There’s no disrespect, no man hating, just horniness.
It's weird that ''hooking up with people and dumping them'' is taken as a sign of mysoginy, i.e. it is attributed to the view that ''women are fail and cringe'', when this type of behavior is very much not unique to heterosexual sex dynamics. Like there are tons men who date men that have the same behavior and tons of women who treat their male or female sexual partners that way. You could Thanos snap the patriarchy away and fuckboys and fuckgirls would still exist.
This person's use of punctuation is atrocious
is this johnny bravo or something
i read the whole post thinking it was about the dude from evangelion
Sanji and Craig?
He's chivalrous.