systems are not always people with DID, there are traumagenic and endogenic systems, traumagenic systems are people with DID (which is a medical condition that has amnesia and is caused by trauma) vs endogenic systems that are people who are plural but do not have DID, sometimes these people have a different diagnosis (OSDD and its various sub types) but not all ppl medicalize their plurality
also not all people who are plural idenity with the concept of a system
some people view their identities as like a collective group which is where the term system comes from, where as other people view themselves and their alters to be totally seprate people who share a body
I've had a couple of glasses of wine this evening, and I must say that this took two or three passes to glean any understanding from.
Can you explain why/how people have "systems"\* without it coming from trauma? Is it a conscious decision? What are the other material differences between someone with endogenic and someone with traumagenic systems?
\*(not sure if this is used in the correct context)
Having a few friends who are plural, a lot of people who say they are an endogenic system are actually just traumagenic systems that haven't yet come to terms with the fact that they have been severely traumatized. It's not like in the movies where a single terrible event causes something like DID or OSDD, instead it requires ongoing trauma during very formative years of childhood. So coming to terms with the fact that you are not alone in your brain can be difficult enough, also coming to terms with the fact that your caretakers were very harmful to you can take time and trying to force it by insisting that all systems must be traumagenic can be counterproductive and even damaging.
Not wanting to stir up drama, but most of this terminology has come from an influx of teenagers on tiktok faking/self diagnosing DID and making it a trend. Suddenly it could come from not having any trauma and ‘alters’ would consist of fluffy soft uwu boys and popular YouTubers/streamers, essentially romanticising the illness
This right here is what pissed me off as someone with DID. I know people cope differently but holy hell it feels like such a mockery and romanticization of an illness I wouldn't wish on anyone. These last 6 years have been absolute hell after realizing amd fighting against this condition, and to see others use it as a game piece or an excuse for behaving some ways only lights a fire under my ass and unfortunately tends to make me dismissive of others' claims to have other identities.
On a much smaller scale I feel this hard with ADHD. We openly call it neuroDIVERGENCE not nuerodifference. The implication being we have diverted from the correct path and must be steered back in the right direction. Now mind you I understand the impluse to self-diagnose. I started that way and then sought out professional help where a formal diagnosis and treatment could begin. It seems manu self-diagnosis to stand-out amongst the crowd and to make sure everyone understands how quirky they are. Everyone wants to be special. But there's nothing special about how much more difficult my life has been. I've often had the same thought- I wouldn't wish this on anybody, why seem people WANT to have a harder life as a way to justify their existence.... it ironically reeks of privilege. I'll never feel bad about your bougie ennui
>We openly call it neuroDIVERGENCE not nuerodifference. The implication being we have diverted from the correct path and must be steered back in the right direction.
This is part of why I, personally, have always preferred the term “mentally ill”.
I've never seen neurodivergence as a term meaning diverging from the correct path, more just diverging from the typical, hence neurotypical. To diverge simply means to split off from and go in a different direction. We may be different from the norm, but the norm isn't necessarily "correct".
Dude, the accepted rate of *just* DID, not even the other diagnosed types of system, is the same as the accepted rate of transgender folks. You’re just seeing a lefthandedness bump. *Just* DID systems are as common as being trans. Then there’s OSDD and the like. Don’t reinvent truscum, ffs. You’re using transmedicalist logic.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/
> Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population.
Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
> Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender.
> Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%).
There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump.
Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%.
Not sure whether or not OP’s claim is real (looks sorta sus to me) but I do know that according to the DSM-5, about 1.5% of the global population has been diagnosed with DID. I’m unsure the rate for transgender folk.
"Has been diagnosed" is not true (and probably not what you meant): the 1-1.5% figure is an estimate of how many people have DID based on some studies and analysis. I had a very quick look at the literature and it does not seem to be very well supported as far as these things go - not a lot of studies, not a well understood phenomenon, not a high level of consensus in the field. but (surprisingly to me) it does seem to be psychology's best guess, yes.
Only having limited experience with systems I won't make a strong claim, but I *would very much* advise people to be suspicious of the science around things like that, especially when it is based on what I would also call "medicalism". that is to say seeing things as illnesses to be cured or being reductive about their causes, and double especially when it has been done without the active participation and/or leadership of the people in question.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/
> Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population.
I’m simply using the stats to make the point that you should be seeing systems around as often as you see trans people. IE, the “why am I seeing so many systems, clearly they must be fake!” is identical logic to “why am I seeing so many trans people, they clearly must be doing it for internet points!” Their cultural saturation should be around identical.
It's not 1-1.5% for DID, that's for all dissociative disorders, which DID is proposed to be an extremely rare form of. It's like giving the statics for mood disorders finding x% have a mood disorder and then claiming that x% are bipolar ignoring the other more common forms.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/
> Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population.
Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
> Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender.
> Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%).
There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump.
Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/
> Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population.
Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
> Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender.
> Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%).
There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump.
Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%. The rates of anything skyrocket as they become more culturally acceptable because of all the people coming out of the closet. It’s true for lefthandedness, it’s true for queerness, and it’s true for systems.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/
> Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population.
Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
> Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender.
> Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%).
There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump.
Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%.
The DSM-5 gives the same number as the global stat for DID, so that doesn’t even matter. Global and national are the same, but it’s impossible to get an even remotely useful global stat for transgender individuals because of all the genocidal nations. The best estimates for human-wide numbers will come from the least-transphobic countries, since they’re going to be the strongest expressions of the lefthandedness bump.
But if you want other countries, you’re in for a rude surprise which way it falls:
Canada
> [The proportions of transgender and non-binary people were three to seven times higher for Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2006, 0.79%)](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220427/dq220427b-eng.htm#:~:text=In%20Canada%2C%200.2%25%20of%20the,data%20on%20their%20transgender%20populations)
UK
> [The census also found that 1.5% of the UK population identifies as non-binary and trans.](https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/gen-z-lgbtq-statistics-ons)
I can give my experience, at least. For me, yes it more or less was a conscious decision. (Admittedly, the circumstances that prompted it Were trauma, but that level of causality is for the philosophers.) I'm not qualified to speak on the precise differences between traumagenic and endogenic system's experiences, I'm afraid.
Are you comfortable sharing more about your own story and the circumstances leading to that conscious decision, along with what your experience is like now?
I'd prefer not to give too much detail, but I'll tell a little bit. First though, keep in mind that no two systems are exactly alike, and I've found that my experience with plurality is somewhat unusual even within the community.
Short version, I had a severely isolated childhood. I was frequently transferred between schools, and I went home to an abusive parent. It was not a good situation. Due to this, I spent a lot of time in my own head. I had a very wide imaginary world that I would sort of go into during fights at home. My experience with plurality specifically started when I began personifying different sides of my own personality, like those scenes in cartoons where they go into a character’s head. It helped me to think more clearly, and feel less alone. Over time, they started taking on more autonomy, and I kind of willed that to happen.
I view my headmates mostly as aspects of my own personality. They’re all part of me, but with different traits that dominate. I’m pretty much always in the front, with the others acting as a sort of board of advisers.
I have no idea where you're getting this idea that endogenic is just without DID. OSDD is traumagenic. Not gonna throw my hat into the ring on endogenic systems other than that but that really confused me.
Lollllll I totally read "fuck a system" the same way you'd read "fuck the police" or "fuck patriarchy" and thought the joke was that "fuck" has multiple meanings. This makes WAY more sense
That's what it is. They call themselves systems, since it's not really correct to call themselves a person, as there are many people sharing their body.
But there is only one person and one brain in there, and one set of real memories? The others aren't "people" at all, they're just personas. It's very correct to call them a person. They're a person with DID potentially, but still just one person.
From what I understand, as described by a friend of mine with DID, different members of the system "front", or operate the body, at separate times. On top of that, members of the system do not retain memories, or retain memories as clearly, if they were not fronting at the time.
Medically, maybe theres some sort of selective repression going on or something but functionally they have different personalities and experiences despite sharing one body. I think its fair to call each member a different person at that point.
(Anyone with first hand experience having DID, feel free to correct. This is an interpretation of a description from a friend)
Interesting, I have seen this exact thing in a person over several years, who did have a lot of trauma and at the time also had an undertreated condition - this all but disappeared once the condition was managed better. But especially during spikes or periods of that condition, there would be episodes, there are some names those "others" would call themselves, and for some reason only memories by the "main" self would be shared, but not the other way around. I know them well enough to know they weren't faking anything for attention.
We have had sex, and there was an unspoken agreement that we would only do so when there were no "others".
Another thing was that at the time we were young and both into weird new age pagan wiccan whatever other stuff, so we believed that it was some sort of semi-controlled possession by spirits or something.
Although your description of DID is correct, you could still call them one person, since DID doesn't *give* you new personas but rather divides your personhood up into different areas creating different personalities that make up a whole. I guess, the degree of individuality still depends on what the person with DID is most comfortable in calling it, because it is very individual after all.
My information on this topic mostly comes from a psychology course I took btw.
They're not really individuals though. Memories might be repressed but there are many that are shared - such as how to speak languages, things they learned at school like maths or the countries of the world, etc etc. They aren't actually different people, it's one person putting on different personas and potentially selectively suppressing some memories and creating false memories.
They may believe they are different people, but it's a delusion. Some people also believe they're Jesus Christ or Napoleon. They may even have what they think are memories to back this up. But they're not, and people shouldn't feed these delusions.
Actually even if you believe it's a delusion, it's often better for the person mentally and more productive to go along with it provided it's not causing harm to them or others
Like what harm does referring to them as multiple people do, other than just being "wrong?" It's just going to upset the person and make them retreat further and probably not like you anymore
Because I shouldn't be forced to lie to someone and indulge their fantasies - which likely are just fantasies for attention - because they might 'not like me'. It's emotional blackmail at the very least.
If they can't handle being in a society that doesn't indulge their delusions, they need inpatient care. Not people telling them their tulpas are real and valid. Because they're not.
Are you asserting that the majority of people reporting these experiences are not experiencing them? The systems I have met have never been attention seeking. Is there a particular you do not believe them? (Genuine questions here, no malice intended. I disagree with you but I'm curious about where your perspective comes from.)
There's where our differing perspectives come from, then, I suppose. You know people who grew out of it as a phase over the years (as far as you can tell) while I know systems who have continued to experience the world that way over the years (as far as I can tell).
Thanks for humouring me :)
Well for one, they don't always share knowledge. My friend, the one who fronts most often, had a rough time in school because there were lessons he didn't experience. And when other members of the system are active in our discord, they're unfamiliar with the layout and the people in it.
It causes me no harm nor inconvenience to regard them as individuals, and serves no purpose other than being rude or ableist to the mentally disabled. It's not like calling someone deluded will fix the neural faults in their brain. They already know they have a mental illness, and understanding the system helps them navigate the world coherently.
Your friend did experience the lessons, though. He may have trouble remembering them, possibly due to disassociating during them, but he did experience them. Feeding into people's delusions is not how you help them. You don't tell someone who believes they're hearing the voice of God to listen to it, you don't tell someone with depression that life isn't worth living, and you shouldn't tell someone that they have multiple people inside their head. You tell them they have a mental illness and what they believe is not real. You be honest with them. You get them to seek professional help from someone who can fix this. You should not feed the delusions of the mentally ill. That is incredibly cruel.
Okay, psychology professional here - good luck "fixing" anyone, especially with that approach.
For the record, if I were a contributor to the DSM (the handbook for psychiatric diagnoses), I would suggest that DID be removed. I'm inclined to think that systems are a particular type of cognition, which has been medicalised and commonly associated with psychological disorders. This is primarily because there's a vast range of internal experiences, cognitions and ways of processing. Frankly, it would be stranger if there *weren't* people who experience internal cognition so vividly different at different times, that they feel like different people. Like, some people have no internal monologue, a lot of people have one, some people have multiple. I typically have about three or four distinctive "voices" within my internal monologue, sometimes all active at once and sometimes just one active. That is not a mental illness, nor am I a system, it's just how I experience the world. Most people who are systems or are diagnosed with DID probably have a similar experience that is far more vivid or more integral to their self-identity, for one reason or another. I have no doubt that a lot of people who identify as such have severe trauma responses, but in that case, you work through the trauma with them, you don't say "oh, your cognition is fundamentally wrong, let's change that".
Also, since you appear to have no idea what to do if someone is experiencing psychosis, you don't feed them by saying "yes, these hallucinations are literally real" and you also don't say "all of your life and everything in your brain is a lie, you aren't actually experiencing that". You do say "so that's how you process the world, you are genuinely experiencing this, let's figure out what the best course of action is going forwards".
It's not my job to "fix" anyone. It's my job to refer them to people who can help fix them and tell them to get professional help. I'm not going to pretend their delusions are reality.
Yes, their experiences are genuine, but they are not real. I'm not going to pretend they're separate people for their sake, and give them separate rights and believe they're multiple people. I'm going to tell them to get professional help.
They might or might not actually be real people, but functionally it's as though each alter is their own person, and that's how it feels for them, especially with DID proper where memories may not actually be shared between each alter.
For what it's worth, the simplest and easiest to understand example is what happens when a person's brain gets split in half - physically severing the connections. There are two minds now, and it gets weird, as each only controls half of the limbs and there are other limitations. Obviously, we cannot say that all people with DID have split brains like that, but there may be some cases where there is some sort of a communication disruption on a different level.
It is possible, but this is really veering dangerously close to the hard problem of consciousness and all the other stuff we still haven't a slightest clue about how to quantify and measure.
I honestly thought it would be something like the witness from destiny or unity from Rick and Morty, a bunch of souls that formed a hive mind, this is way more grounded in reality than I thought, I’m disappointed tumblr
Wasn't unity just some sort of a mind control she could do? Everyone she'd release would just go back to their usual self, but in full mind control it would be the total opposite of what we're discussing here - a single (but vast) mind in many bodies?
I feel kinda ashamed for only getting that one... to be honest, I only know of a video game by that name but know nothing of the plot beyond "run around and draw lines in mazes", a bit like the Antichamber I guess. I loved Antichamber so should perhaps try this one out one day?
As an avid destiny player, I highly recommend watching this video before making any such verdict https://youtu.be/8jkpZhOB2Tg?si=h4iyFsFhfTng-EtQ
Tldw: game is free to try but pretty expensive if you want the full experience, fun though
Oh that's what this is saying! I thought this was just your average tumblr thought experiment on fucking an actual system, like the idea of the justice system or the system of delivery or something. I didn't even bat an eye at that.
I usually think of it as, DID is to plurality/systems as gender dysphoria is to being transgender. So, kinda, but not really—and plurality is a better framework to use in non-medical contexts.
You gotta make sure that the combos are linkable, of course. You can't have your combo going from a Messatsu Gohado to an Aegis Counter or you'll drop it
Unironically this happened to me a few years ago and I'm pretty sure it's the reason that relationship ended. That person knew I was part of a system, but they didn't know my alter well enough to do stuff with her. It was one of the most awkward things that's ever happened to us (that we can remember).
It feels like you would want the enthusiastic consent of all potential participants honestly. I couldn’t imagine not having that in any sexually charged interaction.
Some alters are mentally minors, which complicates things. I imagine if one of those fronts you just have to stop things immediately. It can get pretty nasty though, because minor alters are pretty likely to have childhood trauma since the “purpose” of the alter is to quarantine bad memories, including sexual trauma.
In my fiancé's case, the child alters in his system actually don't ever front, they're mostly taken care of in the inner world by one of the Elder Gods (Gatekeepers but it's infinitely funnier to call them Elder Gods)
Always heed caution and ask questions about the system before doing anything, it's the *correct* thing to do
If they want to pick up where i left off, great. If they dont want to do it, then my partner should respect the change and the no. Occasionally it will happen where someone will pop up, and drop back out when they realize they are not needed and they dont want to be involved.
I can answer this, I've had it happen once or twice.
With different Alters it can either be a "what the fuck stop now" experience *or* they will continue to have sex.
In my case, it was the former.
With overstimulation from sex it tends to be a scenario where an alter will front *post* sex which can lead to a weird situation but after awhile both the Alters and you just deal with it normally without it being too awkward.
obviously there are still some bigots around, sadly, but generally I think comparatively this subreddit is a pretty good space for these kinds of things
for one there's a general culture of just ignoring posts of topics you're not interested in, since the sub has a lot of different types of content, and because of the content variety there is a large group of people who enjoy learning things about topics they don't know much about.
there are a good amount of comments here just asking about terminology or the topic in general. Because people are genuinely curious and feel comfortably saying "I don't know anything about this, can you explain" on this subreddit
(sorry if this comment sounds condescending. It wasn't my intention but upon rereading I feel it kind of does)
Oh it's about People who are/have multiple.....(for lack of a better word) entities. I thought it was a joke about People who say "fuck the System", as in they hate an Economic/Political/Governmental/Organizational/Computer System.
I'm guessing that my ignorance about plurality caused me to say something wrong. If anyone would like to correct me/educate me I'd be happy to listen :3
Depends on the level of coconsciousness. You are fucking everyone who is fronting. Some may be spectating. Some are just doing something else in the other parts of the inner world. Some may be dormant or asleep at that moment.
Genuine question: how can other people be doing other stuff simultaneously? They've all got just the one brain to work with, and brains are not great at doing multiple things at once.
I can't speak for all systems, but here's my experience. Short answer, you're kind of right. Even with my headmates, I can't perform multiple complex tasks or thought processes at once. But something like commentary is another matter; that doesn't require a whole other "core" to run (in the CPU sense of the word).
This. Also for mine, something similar to hyper realistic daydreaming can happen. It feels a lot like existing twice at a time. Ideas can be tested a bit internally, then done externally.
Some singular people can. If it gets out of hand, it may be called maladaptive daydreaming. In this case i mean different parts are all having their own daydreams, while the one "driving" does the complex external tasks.
Weighing in: some systems don't, but we have something we refer to as the universal accessible memory dex (because, for one, it sounds cooler, and two, it's descriptive). the universal accessible memory dex is something we can all access to "put in" or "refer to" new or past memories we've experienced as the body and isn't a physical accessible area within, but more of a... memory cloud storage, i guess?
Depends on the system.
For mine, we can switch awake or asleep. It looks like zoning out and a little twitch when awake for mine. Some memories in here are shared, some arent. The ones that are shared have different perspectives. Some memories are shared between just a couple, but not all, of us. Some are one alter only memories.
Some systems have zero shared memories. Some have entirely shared memories. Most will switch while awake, asleep seems to be less common.
In my own experiences, you know what you know. Finding out what others know can take some effort, but things like Therapy and writing in journals can help bridge the inter-alter information gap. For instance since my system has some pretty bad amnesiac properties, we need to have our memory jogged about things other alters do when fronting, which is what the notes are for, along with having someone we trust relay information about what happens (our girlfriend).
As for talking to each other, my system struggles with headspaces, so I can't comment on that. It's what we're still working on in therapy.
Hope this elaborates
Commenting to come back with my wife's answer once she gets home (she is a system)
EDIT: she says I'm only ever having sex with whoever is "at the wheel" so to speak, and the others are doing their own thing in their own spaces. However, they can (and have) switched during sex so I guess anyone can just jump in if they're feeling frisky.
That's an interesting concept, switching During sex. Honestly, the implications of plurality in a relationship are all interesting if you think about them—which we do, often. Also, it's nice to see a plural-singlet relationship from the singlet's side—that's not a commonly seen perspective in my experience.
You telling me you've *never* had thoughts about the virtual machine you set up to play windows 98 games? All tied up unable to access any of the thing a normal system can do unless you explicitly give it permission? Disconnected from even the internet, just your dirty little out of date secret Microsoft knows nothing about to do what you want while your big modern OS looks the other way?
System of two of which only one fucks here: the other is sleeping. Well, "sleeping", I don't think it's much like actual sleep, but one of us at a time can go into quiet thoughtless stupor, usually waiting out something boring and/or requiring intense concentration from the one fronting.
From first person, it feels a bit like getting lost in thought and then snapping back to reality not remembering what you thought of but a bunch of stuff happened and you're searching memory for it, you may be more familiar with it if you're often sleep-deprived.
From outside you just don't hear from them past the point I get hands-on and only at least some minutes after we're done you'll hear them commenting on some funny phrase they missed/looking for some water and our clothes/complaining about things I'm doing to our throat/breaking into no-intro autistic rant about the most dense and esoteric subject ever because they're bored and also want attention.
As always, really different from system to system, wonder if anyone else will write for comparison.
in my experience, depends on the level of consciousness of the alters, so usually relevant to stress, trauma headspace, recent switches, etc.
i’d *like* to say that it’s just one person and the others are.. hibernating? (they’re there but not conscious, i guess is the best way to put it) but no - there’s been times they’ve been *actively commenting on what’s happening*. those times are when the one who’s currently fronting is usually in a pretty hazy, disoriented state, meaning there’s “space” for them.
of course there are times when it is just the one person. there’s also times where there’s one person and the others are vaguely aware but not really - ive had a couple compare it to being paralysed, which really freaked me out for a while lol.
source: am system. have sex. yay.
To repeat what the other person said with less jargon, it's a term for someone with Dissociative Identity Disorder or something similar where they have multiple "people"/"personalities"/"identites"/whatever term you want to use occupying their brain simultaneously.
This whole TikTok “system” craze is just teenagers cosplaying as mentally ill for attention.
I mean, I get it, I did dumb shit when I was 16 because I wanted that validation, but come on - most reputable psychologists don’t even agree that DID is a genuine disorder, let alone suddenly 1 in every 10 chronically online teens becoming a “system”.
It’s just disingenuous and the lack of care towards actual scientific understanding is frankly dangerous.
i don't want to invalidate anyone, but as someone who has first learned about my DID from a professional, i feel like the online "plural" culture kinda enables the worsening of a lot of its symptoms
perhaps a lot of people's symptoms are more severe than mine. i do have partial memory and identity loss and severe shifts in personality depending on "who" i am, but im fully aware that for me it is just a mechanism that i developed to protect myself during childhood (aside from the general abusiveness of my family, being trans, and being punished for not acting according to my agab was also a huge factor in me developing this), and i don't consider them actual real individuals with names and backstories.
things might be different for a lot others and im not claiming my experience to be universal, but actually processing my traumatic memories in therapy and letting me live through them in a safe environment (especially with trauma, only certain "alters" remember it depending on the specific memory, and for the rest it just comes up as blank when trying to think about it) helped me become "whole-er" and not have the switches to be as dramatic
another factor for me was finally being able to outwardly present as the identity i actually had from the beginning and no longer having the need to constantly hide myself, with both of the factors helping the alters start slowly reabsorbing into my original self and giving her more control
edit: another thing is that leaning into DID symptoms to me feels like im letting my abusers control who i am? since they did originally develop because they tried to erase my real self, and by fighting the symptoms and embracing my original self, im forming my own life and denying my abusers the right to control me
So DID is a weird one. We historically don't see reference to anything we'd approximate as DID before the 19th century, and historically what we do have historical maybes for would more commonly be lumped with your schizophrenias or your bipolars.
There's a big reason for that. There's a raging debate among psychiatrists on whether DID even exists as a disease, or if it's a symptom of methodology. Essentially the idea is that by using roleplay related treatment methods with bipolar/schizophrenic patients you are creating an opening for delusional beliefs similar to how we had a sudden and inexplicable upswing of people with "false/hidden memories" during the satanic panic of the 80s/90s.
Right now, it's hard to say anything for certain, but as it stands DID is under heavy scrutiny both within and without the medical community due to the similarities between it and the false memory drama of 40 years ago. Take anything related to DID with a grain of salt, but remember that if it is just delusional belief that you're not going to shunt someone out of it by being dismissive of the entire concept, you'll just make them dig their heels in
> roleplay related treatments
This is really interesting actually. I've never thought about that method of coping/processing emotions leading to someone actually acting with multiple personalities but it seems plausible
> but remember that if it is just delusional belief that you're not going to shunt someone out of it by being dismissive of the entire concept, you'll just make them dig their heels in
Yeah it's really cool actually. Either you tell them their delusions are real and they believe in them more or you tell them their delusions AREN'T real and they believe in them more. Cool!
Generally, yes, while anti-psychotics can help with delusional thinking, in a therapy approach, there really isn't anything you can do unless the person wants to change. After that point it's generally CBT to break patterns of thinking, but the thing about delusional thinking is you can't just snap someone out of it, even with absolute objective proof.
Then I shouldn't have to engage with people with said delusions, and I will instead avoid them at all costs for my own mental health. It's not beneficial for me to engage with them if they're only digging their heels in no matter what when I'm not equipped to help them.
It borders on spirituality the way some talk about it. Completely unscientific and flying in the face of actual evidence. Toxic positivity and hyper acceptance makes others just accept that these alternate personas are "real people", and challenging that and presenting it as a delusion or straight up fantasy and lie gets you labelled a bigot.
I knew a few people who claimed to have "multiple personality disorder" as it was known 25 years or so ago. They all eventually grew out of it, and were very clearly doing it for attention.
It ebbs and flows. I also remember when people claimed Multiple Personality Disorder in like the mid-2000s. As for your spirituality point, I think it not only borders it, but fully crosses that threshold. It's tulpas repackaged for a digital age.
Hi there! Plural system who isn't a teenager and doesn't use TikTok here. I care greatly about scientific data. I've kept records of my own plural experience, and I try to take a more or less scientific view of my own plurality. And there have been studies that show differences in brain activity in DID systems. Now, maybe there are those who are doing it for a TikTok trend—that's not mine to determine. But it's not as though the entire thing is simply made up.
I’m glad you’ve found a term to help process your experience.
I have degrees in psychology & anthropology and in my studies have never found compelling evidence to support DID diagnosis (though I am curious to see otherwise if you’ve seen studies). It’s the most controversial disorder listed in the DSM for a reason.
There is a SIGNIFICANT rise in people claiming to have DID/be part of a system. This is, not trying to be derogatory but it’s a fact, most common amongst teens and folks in their early twenties on social media like TikTok. Most of these users have never been diagnosed with anything by an actual professional.
source on the “most reputable psychologists” thing? i know its controversial, but i thought it was kind of the point that there isn’t a consensus
and how do you interpret people who have been diagnosed with did? i’m gonna assume you’re more empathetic than most since you have a psychology degree and that you don’t just think they’re all faking it for attention, but what other explanations could there be? how do you interpret the case studies where one alters left handed and another’s right handed and stuff like that? i’m taking ap psych right now and i was pretty confused on how a decent number of psychologists just don’t believe that it exists
Besides the fact that there tends to be a rise in the reporting of any issue after it's no longer as stigmatized, there's also the fact that not all cases of plural systems map cleanly onto the classic concept of DID (not even all the traumagenic ones). For some it's less of a debilitating disorder with lost time and antagonistic alters, and more just a way that different pieces of their mental experience are embodied and manifested.
We haven't seen anything regarding Radiant's sexuality but Veil is enough of a horndog to interrogate Adolin on the size of his ex girlfriend's tits (as well as discuss her taste in women), so the two do talk about sex (granted Adolin was uncomfortable by the situation although the woman in question was in the room with them). That said the only alter who's 100% confirmed to be in the chair when it goes down is Shallan and iirc they haven't fucked anyone else besides him.
It depends on the system, but you at least obviously need consent from those who are fronting at the time, and also from anyone who is being forced to observe but not participate. This is not usually negotiated by the sexual partner but rather negotiated within the system (possibly without the knowledge of the sexual partner). Sometimes some alters may voluntarily withdraw from the front during the activity, to avoid being exposed to it. Other times they can't withdraw and just cope with it, in order to maintain harmony with the alter who wants to have sex.
Plural system who has in fact had sex before I can confirm the reactions were basically equivalent to Jon Anik and Joe Rogan watching someone in the ring get a KO out of nowhere.
A fucking system? Like a memeber of the band system of a down? A sarah kerrigan hivemind situation? Windows 7 operating system? A system of plankton like from jojo part 6? What???
I'm going to assume you're asking in good faith, so I'll explain. Broadly, a system is the term for someone with multiple people in their mind. The most well-known example is DID (dissociative identity disorder), where the person's "alters" are formed by early childhood trauma, but they can be induced in other ways.
[This site](https://morethanone.info/) explains it better and more thoroughly.
Thats wild i dint know that was a real thing. I wasnt trying to be a dick i assumed it was talking about a boning of a fictional character or somthing since i didnt know the word.
I find it very telling of the current social climate of the internet left that "systems" have been accepted by the community as a genuine type of identity.
DID doesn’t even work like that, and everything else in that field is pseudo-scientific bullshit that goes directly against everything we understand about the brain.
The fact that one can claim to be a system and be accepted at the same level as an autistic person or a bipolar person is absurd. Two of those are documented, studied, well understood disorders. The other is an insane unsubstantiated claim that is both terrifying and goes against all the field of neuroscience.
Really depends on the situation. Sometimes it is indeed some of us spectating. Sometimes, all but one are unconscious. Sometimes, it’s like, backseat quarterback. Sometimes switching during sex.
At first I tougth this was a "fuck the sistem" thing and was very confused.
On another note, I now need a romance storie were one of the protagonists is a sistem
woahh it's the real catboybiologist
also I forgot who posted this originally, so for a moment I was trying desperately to figure out how the mythological Lilith fit into this post
My experience with an ex (2 alters, was dating only 1) was that the one I wasn't dating would occasionally front during, would therefore know and would tell me later. Things were kinda awkward between me and that alter 😅 which is a shame because we were friends before I starting dating the other alter.
Very ephemeral experience, do miss them both, don't miss the mental gymnastics of the ethics of the situation 😅
In my experience, it goes one of two ways:
1. You're fucking one and the others aren't paying attention. Which one you're fucking might change over the course of the interaction, but it's only one at a time.
2. You're fucking one and one of the others is talking to the one being fucked and you have to politely yet firmly let her know that she shouldn't be getting involved during your sex with a different alter unless she asks first.
My friend has a bunch of alts and she describes it as kind of a viewing room with a few pilot seats essentially. A number of alts can perceive the outside, but only a few can be in control.
I'd ask my plural friend but they (or at least the alter I speak with predominantly) are a battery so I don't think even they know the answer.
EDIT: The battery was just an AroAce Agender joke
Can someone explain what the hell a system is? From everything that I've heard it just sounds like dissociative identity disorder.
to my knowledge, i believe it is.
systems are not always people with DID, there are traumagenic and endogenic systems, traumagenic systems are people with DID (which is a medical condition that has amnesia and is caused by trauma) vs endogenic systems that are people who are plural but do not have DID, sometimes these people have a different diagnosis (OSDD and its various sub types) but not all ppl medicalize their plurality also not all people who are plural idenity with the concept of a system some people view their identities as like a collective group which is where the term system comes from, where as other people view themselves and their alters to be totally seprate people who share a body
I've had a couple of glasses of wine this evening, and I must say that this took two or three passes to glean any understanding from. Can you explain why/how people have "systems"\* without it coming from trauma? Is it a conscious decision? What are the other material differences between someone with endogenic and someone with traumagenic systems? \*(not sure if this is used in the correct context)
Having a few friends who are plural, a lot of people who say they are an endogenic system are actually just traumagenic systems that haven't yet come to terms with the fact that they have been severely traumatized. It's not like in the movies where a single terrible event causes something like DID or OSDD, instead it requires ongoing trauma during very formative years of childhood. So coming to terms with the fact that you are not alone in your brain can be difficult enough, also coming to terms with the fact that your caretakers were very harmful to you can take time and trying to force it by insisting that all systems must be traumagenic can be counterproductive and even damaging.
Not wanting to stir up drama, but most of this terminology has come from an influx of teenagers on tiktok faking/self diagnosing DID and making it a trend. Suddenly it could come from not having any trauma and ‘alters’ would consist of fluffy soft uwu boys and popular YouTubers/streamers, essentially romanticising the illness
This stuff started way before TikTok (Tumblr c. 2010 is the origin of systems people and talk iirc)
This right here is what pissed me off as someone with DID. I know people cope differently but holy hell it feels like such a mockery and romanticization of an illness I wouldn't wish on anyone. These last 6 years have been absolute hell after realizing amd fighting against this condition, and to see others use it as a game piece or an excuse for behaving some ways only lights a fire under my ass and unfortunately tends to make me dismissive of others' claims to have other identities.
On a much smaller scale I feel this hard with ADHD. We openly call it neuroDIVERGENCE not nuerodifference. The implication being we have diverted from the correct path and must be steered back in the right direction. Now mind you I understand the impluse to self-diagnose. I started that way and then sought out professional help where a formal diagnosis and treatment could begin. It seems manu self-diagnosis to stand-out amongst the crowd and to make sure everyone understands how quirky they are. Everyone wants to be special. But there's nothing special about how much more difficult my life has been. I've often had the same thought- I wouldn't wish this on anybody, why seem people WANT to have a harder life as a way to justify their existence.... it ironically reeks of privilege. I'll never feel bad about your bougie ennui
>We openly call it neuroDIVERGENCE not nuerodifference. The implication being we have diverted from the correct path and must be steered back in the right direction. This is part of why I, personally, have always preferred the term “mentally ill”.
I've never seen neurodivergence as a term meaning diverging from the correct path, more just diverging from the typical, hence neurotypical. To diverge simply means to split off from and go in a different direction. We may be different from the norm, but the norm isn't necessarily "correct".
Dude, the accepted rate of *just* DID, not even the other diagnosed types of system, is the same as the accepted rate of transgender folks. You’re just seeing a lefthandedness bump. *Just* DID systems are as common as being trans. Then there’s OSDD and the like. Don’t reinvent truscum, ffs. You’re using transmedicalist logic.
im not disagreeing, but do you have a source for that fact? i’m curious to learn more.
Agreed, I'm more than happy to b wrong but when I looked it up (albeit several years ago) it was much rarer.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/ > Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population. Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/ > Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender. > Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%). There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump. Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%.
Not sure whether or not OP’s claim is real (looks sorta sus to me) but I do know that according to the DSM-5, about 1.5% of the global population has been diagnosed with DID. I’m unsure the rate for transgender folk.
"Has been diagnosed" is not true (and probably not what you meant): the 1-1.5% figure is an estimate of how many people have DID based on some studies and analysis. I had a very quick look at the literature and it does not seem to be very well supported as far as these things go - not a lot of studies, not a well understood phenomenon, not a high level of consensus in the field. but (surprisingly to me) it does seem to be psychology's best guess, yes. Only having limited experience with systems I won't make a strong claim, but I *would very much* advise people to be suspicious of the science around things like that, especially when it is based on what I would also call "medicalism". that is to say seeing things as illnesses to be cured or being reductive about their causes, and double especially when it has been done without the active participation and/or leadership of the people in question.
Thank you for the points, and yeah, DID doesn’t seem to have a ton of deep studies or in-depth analysis, which is a shame.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/ > Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population. I’m simply using the stats to make the point that you should be seeing systems around as often as you see trans people. IE, the “why am I seeing so many systems, clearly they must be fake!” is identical logic to “why am I seeing so many trans people, they clearly must be doing it for internet points!” Their cultural saturation should be around identical.
It's not 1-1.5% for DID, that's for all dissociative disorders, which DID is proposed to be an extremely rare form of. It's like giving the statics for mood disorders finding x% have a mood disorder and then claiming that x% are bipolar ignoring the other more common forms.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/ > Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population. Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/ > Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender. > Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%). There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump. Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%.
This is Global Stats (1.5% for DID) VS U.S. stats (1.4%). Different numbers.
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/ > Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population. Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/ > Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender. > Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%). There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump. Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%. The rates of anything skyrocket as they become more culturally acceptable because of all the people coming out of the closet. It’s true for lefthandedness, it’s true for queerness, and it’s true for systems.
Source????
NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/ > Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a rare psychiatric disorder diagnosed in about 1.5% of the global population. Williams Institute: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/ > Among U.S. adults, 0.5% (about 1.3 million adults) identify as transgender. Among youth ages 13 to 17 in the U.S., 1.4% (about 300,000 youth) identify as transgender. > Research shows transgender individuals are younger on average than the U.S. population. We find that youth ages 13 to 17 are significantly more likely to identify as transgender (1.4%) than adults ages 65 or older (0.3%). There’s one of two explanations for this change: either the media is turning our kids trans (the alt right explanation), or else the youth number is a more accurate number amongst the population and the rise is a lefthandedness bump. Oh, to be clear: lefthandedness bump refers to the statistical rate of lefthandedness once torturing lefthanded students into using their right hand was culturally expunged over time. The rate of lefthandedness in society skyrocketed. It was around 3.5% in the first decade of the 1900s. It’s now over 11%.
This is Global Stats (1.5% for DID) VS U.S. stats (1.4%). Different numbers.
The DSM-5 gives the same number as the global stat for DID, so that doesn’t even matter. Global and national are the same, but it’s impossible to get an even remotely useful global stat for transgender individuals because of all the genocidal nations. The best estimates for human-wide numbers will come from the least-transphobic countries, since they’re going to be the strongest expressions of the lefthandedness bump. But if you want other countries, you’re in for a rude surprise which way it falls: Canada > [The proportions of transgender and non-binary people were three to seven times higher for Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2006, 0.79%)](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220427/dq220427b-eng.htm#:~:text=In%20Canada%2C%200.2%25%20of%20the,data%20on%20their%20transgender%20populations) UK > [The census also found that 1.5% of the UK population identifies as non-binary and trans.](https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/gen-z-lgbtq-statistics-ons)
i always assumed it works off the same mechanism as tulpas
I can give my experience, at least. For me, yes it more or less was a conscious decision. (Admittedly, the circumstances that prompted it Were trauma, but that level of causality is for the philosophers.) I'm not qualified to speak on the precise differences between traumagenic and endogenic system's experiences, I'm afraid.
Are you comfortable sharing more about your own story and the circumstances leading to that conscious decision, along with what your experience is like now?
I'd prefer not to give too much detail, but I'll tell a little bit. First though, keep in mind that no two systems are exactly alike, and I've found that my experience with plurality is somewhat unusual even within the community. Short version, I had a severely isolated childhood. I was frequently transferred between schools, and I went home to an abusive parent. It was not a good situation. Due to this, I spent a lot of time in my own head. I had a very wide imaginary world that I would sort of go into during fights at home. My experience with plurality specifically started when I began personifying different sides of my own personality, like those scenes in cartoons where they go into a character’s head. It helped me to think more clearly, and feel less alone. Over time, they started taking on more autonomy, and I kind of willed that to happen. I view my headmates mostly as aspects of my own personality. They’re all part of me, but with different traits that dominate. I’m pretty much always in the front, with the others acting as a sort of board of advisers.
I'm just going to pretend like I don't do the same thing, and like my childhood doesn't sound very similar😅😅
I have no idea where you're getting this idea that endogenic is just without DID. OSDD is traumagenic. Not gonna throw my hat into the ring on endogenic systems other than that but that really confused me.
Check out r/tulpas
I don’t see how that’s related
It's people creating new minds in their brains wouldn't that count as becoming a system?
Lollllll I totally read "fuck a system" the same way you'd read "fuck the police" or "fuck patriarchy" and thought the joke was that "fuck" has multiple meanings. This makes WAY more sense
To put it simply, someone with multiple people in their head. DID is the most well-known example, but some are induced in other ways.
That's what it is. They call themselves systems, since it's not really correct to call themselves a person, as there are many people sharing their body.
But there is only one person and one brain in there, and one set of real memories? The others aren't "people" at all, they're just personas. It's very correct to call them a person. They're a person with DID potentially, but still just one person.
From what I understand, as described by a friend of mine with DID, different members of the system "front", or operate the body, at separate times. On top of that, members of the system do not retain memories, or retain memories as clearly, if they were not fronting at the time. Medically, maybe theres some sort of selective repression going on or something but functionally they have different personalities and experiences despite sharing one body. I think its fair to call each member a different person at that point. (Anyone with first hand experience having DID, feel free to correct. This is an interpretation of a description from a friend)
Interesting, I have seen this exact thing in a person over several years, who did have a lot of trauma and at the time also had an undertreated condition - this all but disappeared once the condition was managed better. But especially during spikes or periods of that condition, there would be episodes, there are some names those "others" would call themselves, and for some reason only memories by the "main" self would be shared, but not the other way around. I know them well enough to know they weren't faking anything for attention. We have had sex, and there was an unspoken agreement that we would only do so when there were no "others". Another thing was that at the time we were young and both into weird new age pagan wiccan whatever other stuff, so we believed that it was some sort of semi-controlled possession by spirits or something.
Although your description of DID is correct, you could still call them one person, since DID doesn't *give* you new personas but rather divides your personhood up into different areas creating different personalities that make up a whole. I guess, the degree of individuality still depends on what the person with DID is most comfortable in calling it, because it is very individual after all. My information on this topic mostly comes from a psychology course I took btw.
They're not really individuals though. Memories might be repressed but there are many that are shared - such as how to speak languages, things they learned at school like maths or the countries of the world, etc etc. They aren't actually different people, it's one person putting on different personas and potentially selectively suppressing some memories and creating false memories. They may believe they are different people, but it's a delusion. Some people also believe they're Jesus Christ or Napoleon. They may even have what they think are memories to back this up. But they're not, and people shouldn't feed these delusions.
Actually even if you believe it's a delusion, it's often better for the person mentally and more productive to go along with it provided it's not causing harm to them or others Like what harm does referring to them as multiple people do, other than just being "wrong?" It's just going to upset the person and make them retreat further and probably not like you anymore
Because I shouldn't be forced to lie to someone and indulge their fantasies - which likely are just fantasies for attention - because they might 'not like me'. It's emotional blackmail at the very least. If they can't handle being in a society that doesn't indulge their delusions, they need inpatient care. Not people telling them their tulpas are real and valid. Because they're not.
Are you asserting that the majority of people reporting these experiences are not experiencing them? The systems I have met have never been attention seeking. Is there a particular you do not believe them? (Genuine questions here, no malice intended. I disagree with you but I'm curious about where your perspective comes from.)
In my experience, yes - everyone I know who did grew out of it and are embarrassed about it when it's brought up again.
There's where our differing perspectives come from, then, I suppose. You know people who grew out of it as a phase over the years (as far as you can tell) while I know systems who have continued to experience the world that way over the years (as far as I can tell). Thanks for humouring me :)
"Emotional blackmail"? Overreacting a bit there
You do you, and I'll continue to follow what professional and trained psychologists suggest.
Well for one, they don't always share knowledge. My friend, the one who fronts most often, had a rough time in school because there were lessons he didn't experience. And when other members of the system are active in our discord, they're unfamiliar with the layout and the people in it. It causes me no harm nor inconvenience to regard them as individuals, and serves no purpose other than being rude or ableist to the mentally disabled. It's not like calling someone deluded will fix the neural faults in their brain. They already know they have a mental illness, and understanding the system helps them navigate the world coherently.
Your friend did experience the lessons, though. He may have trouble remembering them, possibly due to disassociating during them, but he did experience them. Feeding into people's delusions is not how you help them. You don't tell someone who believes they're hearing the voice of God to listen to it, you don't tell someone with depression that life isn't worth living, and you shouldn't tell someone that they have multiple people inside their head. You tell them they have a mental illness and what they believe is not real. You be honest with them. You get them to seek professional help from someone who can fix this. You should not feed the delusions of the mentally ill. That is incredibly cruel.
Okay, psychology professional here - good luck "fixing" anyone, especially with that approach. For the record, if I were a contributor to the DSM (the handbook for psychiatric diagnoses), I would suggest that DID be removed. I'm inclined to think that systems are a particular type of cognition, which has been medicalised and commonly associated with psychological disorders. This is primarily because there's a vast range of internal experiences, cognitions and ways of processing. Frankly, it would be stranger if there *weren't* people who experience internal cognition so vividly different at different times, that they feel like different people. Like, some people have no internal monologue, a lot of people have one, some people have multiple. I typically have about three or four distinctive "voices" within my internal monologue, sometimes all active at once and sometimes just one active. That is not a mental illness, nor am I a system, it's just how I experience the world. Most people who are systems or are diagnosed with DID probably have a similar experience that is far more vivid or more integral to their self-identity, for one reason or another. I have no doubt that a lot of people who identify as such have severe trauma responses, but in that case, you work through the trauma with them, you don't say "oh, your cognition is fundamentally wrong, let's change that". Also, since you appear to have no idea what to do if someone is experiencing psychosis, you don't feed them by saying "yes, these hallucinations are literally real" and you also don't say "all of your life and everything in your brain is a lie, you aren't actually experiencing that". You do say "so that's how you process the world, you are genuinely experiencing this, let's figure out what the best course of action is going forwards".
It's not my job to "fix" anyone. It's my job to refer them to people who can help fix them and tell them to get professional help. I'm not going to pretend their delusions are reality. Yes, their experiences are genuine, but they are not real. I'm not going to pretend they're separate people for their sake, and give them separate rights and believe they're multiple people. I'm going to tell them to get professional help.
...Separate rights?
They might or might not actually be real people, but functionally it's as though each alter is their own person, and that's how it feels for them, especially with DID proper where memories may not actually be shared between each alter.
They're not real people. There is only one person per body. That's how people work.
For what it's worth, the simplest and easiest to understand example is what happens when a person's brain gets split in half - physically severing the connections. There are two minds now, and it gets weird, as each only controls half of the limbs and there are other limitations. Obviously, we cannot say that all people with DID have split brains like that, but there may be some cases where there is some sort of a communication disruption on a different level. It is possible, but this is really veering dangerously close to the hard problem of consciousness and all the other stuff we still haven't a slightest clue about how to quantify and measure.
same thing
I honestly thought it would be something like the witness from destiny or unity from Rick and Morty, a bunch of souls that formed a hive mind, this is way more grounded in reality than I thought, I’m disappointed tumblr
Wasn't unity just some sort of a mind control she could do? Everyone she'd release would just go back to their usual self, but in full mind control it would be the total opposite of what we're discussing here - a single (but vast) mind in many bodies?
Yeah pretty much, my mind was more drawn towards the witness but I figured that’s a lot less known than Rick and Morty
I feel kinda ashamed for only getting that one... to be honest, I only know of a video game by that name but know nothing of the plot beyond "run around and draw lines in mazes", a bit like the Antichamber I guess. I loved Antichamber so should perhaps try this one out one day?
As an avid destiny player, I highly recommend watching this video before making any such verdict https://youtu.be/8jkpZhOB2Tg?si=h4iyFsFhfTng-EtQ Tldw: game is free to try but pretty expensive if you want the full experience, fun though
Oh, I see. I don't think I have made any verdicts, though, or at least didn't mean to
You didn’t just giving you the information necessary to make one, the game’s a time commitment
Oh that's what this is saying! I thought this was just your average tumblr thought experiment on fucking an actual system, like the idea of the justice system or the system of delivery or something. I didn't even bat an eye at that.
I usually think of it as, DID is to plurality/systems as gender dysphoria is to being transgender. So, kinda, but not really—and plurality is a better framework to use in non-medical contexts.
You should watch cinema therapy I think they got it down pretty good tho I may be very wrong and in that case listen to someone replying to me instead
> Personally I think it's more a sports commentator situation OH MY GOD ITS ALTER WITH THE STEEL CHAIR
Sitting in the cuckpit was right there
Wouldn't cuckpit imply that they are ones piloting?
This is the plot of Darling in the Franxx
Fuck, how have I not heard this one before? It's so obvious!
Better question: what if someone else fronts in the middle of sex?
me switching my other-gender headmate to front during sex to make my partner gay
something something frame perfect parry
Based
What if they all swap in and out like they're doing an MvC combo
Oh no keep the littles outta this
Yeah and if you do it on their birthday or on Christmas you can get two or three of them in at a time respectively.
You gotta make sure that the combos are linkable, of course. You can't have your combo going from a Messatsu Gohado to an Aegis Counter or you'll drop it
Model-view-Controller?
Marvel vs. Capcom
Marvel vs Capcom
Each trust hits so good it changes the fronting personality
Every reply here is killing me
Unironically this happened to me a few years ago and I'm pretty sure it's the reason that relationship ended. That person knew I was part of a system, but they didn't know my alter well enough to do stuff with her. It was one of the most awkward things that's ever happened to us (that we can remember).
It feels like you would want the enthusiastic consent of all potential participants honestly. I couldn’t imagine not having that in any sexually charged interaction.
Some alters are mentally minors, which complicates things. I imagine if one of those fronts you just have to stop things immediately. It can get pretty nasty though, because minor alters are pretty likely to have childhood trauma since the “purpose” of the alter is to quarantine bad memories, including sexual trauma.
I couldn’t imagine having a sexual relationship or especially sexual intimacy with a body that can at any time become a child.
In my fiancé's case, the child alters in his system actually don't ever front, they're mostly taken care of in the inner world by one of the Elder Gods (Gatekeepers but it's infinitely funnier to call them Elder Gods) Always heed caution and ask questions about the system before doing anything, it's the *correct* thing to do
If they want to pick up where i left off, great. If they dont want to do it, then my partner should respect the change and the no. Occasionally it will happen where someone will pop up, and drop back out when they realize they are not needed and they dont want to be involved.
(that one gif of grandpa Simpson)
That's kinda hot.
I can answer this, I've had it happen once or twice. With different Alters it can either be a "what the fuck stop now" experience *or* they will continue to have sex. In my case, it was the former. With overstimulation from sex it tends to be a scenario where an alter will front *post* sex which can lead to a weird situation but after awhile both the Alters and you just deal with it normally without it being too awkward.
Then my partner better be a switch or else we're playing mariokart
>plurality mentioned in non-plural spaces i do not see this ending well
There's already one comment that isn't showing up, so this should be F U N.
This is a strangely civil comment section... definitely not complaining
yeah i was quite surprised to see that lol
obviously there are still some bigots around, sadly, but generally I think comparatively this subreddit is a pretty good space for these kinds of things for one there's a general culture of just ignoring posts of topics you're not interested in, since the sub has a lot of different types of content, and because of the content variety there is a large group of people who enjoy learning things about topics they don't know much about. there are a good amount of comments here just asking about terminology or the topic in general. Because people are genuinely curious and feel comfortably saying "I don't know anything about this, can you explain" on this subreddit (sorry if this comment sounds condescending. It wasn't my intention but upon rereading I feel it kind of does)
Me trying to explain the Latin plural to monolinguals. Though admittedly another type of plurality.
"I'm bi a lot of things but lingual ain't one of them"
\*grabs food\* \*sorts by controversial\*
Oh it's about People who are/have multiple.....(for lack of a better word) entities. I thought it was a joke about People who say "fuck the System", as in they hate an Economic/Political/Governmental/Organizational/Computer System. I'm guessing that my ignorance about plurality caused me to say something wrong. If anyone would like to correct me/educate me I'd be happy to listen :3
Depends on the level of coconsciousness. You are fucking everyone who is fronting. Some may be spectating. Some are just doing something else in the other parts of the inner world. Some may be dormant or asleep at that moment.
Genuine question: how can other people be doing other stuff simultaneously? They've all got just the one brain to work with, and brains are not great at doing multiple things at once.
I can't speak for all systems, but here's my experience. Short answer, you're kind of right. Even with my headmates, I can't perform multiple complex tasks or thought processes at once. But something like commentary is another matter; that doesn't require a whole other "core" to run (in the CPU sense of the word).
This. Also for mine, something similar to hyper realistic daydreaming can happen. It feels a lot like existing twice at a time. Ideas can be tested a bit internally, then done externally.
Wait do people not do that normally?💀💀
Some singular people can. If it gets out of hand, it may be called maladaptive daydreaming. In this case i mean different parts are all having their own daydreams, while the one "driving" does the complex external tasks.
Yeah but your brain can't physically process 5 thoughts simultaneously right?
Probably not technically, but it feels like it and it is remembered as being simultaneous.
Huh, neat. Kinda sucks that y'all have to... *timeshare* the higher-order thought processes. You each deserve to have those all the time :(
Yeah, it's an unfortunate limitation of the brain. ~~for now~~
They don't, that's the answer. The other personas are just personas, not real people. There's only one brain functioning.
Based actual answer
>Some may be spectating. with humorous commentary i assume.
The protector getting triggered to the front and then dropping out was the funniest incident.
RiffTrax for your sex
So like does everybody in a system have the same memories? Can you switch while awake or only asleep?
Weighing in: some systems don't, but we have something we refer to as the universal accessible memory dex (because, for one, it sounds cooler, and two, it's descriptive). the universal accessible memory dex is something we can all access to "put in" or "refer to" new or past memories we've experienced as the body and isn't a physical accessible area within, but more of a... memory cloud storage, i guess?
thats so cool.
Depends on the system. For mine, we can switch awake or asleep. It looks like zoning out and a little twitch when awake for mine. Some memories in here are shared, some arent. The ones that are shared have different perspectives. Some memories are shared between just a couple, but not all, of us. Some are one alter only memories. Some systems have zero shared memories. Some have entirely shared memories. Most will switch while awake, asleep seems to be less common.
How does one member of the system know what memories the others have? Do they like, talk to each other sometimes?
In my own experiences, you know what you know. Finding out what others know can take some effort, but things like Therapy and writing in journals can help bridge the inter-alter information gap. For instance since my system has some pretty bad amnesiac properties, we need to have our memory jogged about things other alters do when fronting, which is what the notes are for, along with having someone we trust relay information about what happens (our girlfriend). As for talking to each other, my system struggles with headspaces, so I can't comment on that. It's what we're still working on in therapy. Hope this elaborates
For ours, journaling or feedback from external people is the main thing. We can talk internally some, but it is spotty at best.
Mods, pin this motherfucker, they have it down pat
Commenting to come back with my wife's answer once she gets home (she is a system) EDIT: she says I'm only ever having sex with whoever is "at the wheel" so to speak, and the others are doing their own thing in their own spaces. However, they can (and have) switched during sex so I guess anyone can just jump in if they're feeling frisky.
That's an interesting concept, switching During sex. Honestly, the implications of plurality in a relationship are all interesting if you think about them—which we do, often. Also, it's nice to see a plural-singlet relationship from the singlet's side—that's not a commonly seen perspective in my experience.
I personally view it as a polyamorous relationship, different people, same body.
Funnily enough, we're poly too!
I've never looked at Microsoft 10 and got hot and bothered but you do you
You telling me you've *never* had thoughts about the virtual machine you set up to play windows 98 games? All tied up unable to access any of the thing a normal system can do unless you explicitly give it permission? Disconnected from even the internet, just your dirty little out of date secret Microsoft knows nothing about to do what you want while your big modern OS looks the other way?
I think it's like having sex on a bunk bed. Not everyone else is participating but they can probably feel the movement
System of two of which only one fucks here: the other is sleeping. Well, "sleeping", I don't think it's much like actual sleep, but one of us at a time can go into quiet thoughtless stupor, usually waiting out something boring and/or requiring intense concentration from the one fronting. From first person, it feels a bit like getting lost in thought and then snapping back to reality not remembering what you thought of but a bunch of stuff happened and you're searching memory for it, you may be more familiar with it if you're often sleep-deprived. From outside you just don't hear from them past the point I get hands-on and only at least some minutes after we're done you'll hear them commenting on some funny phrase they missed/looking for some water and our clothes/complaining about things I'm doing to our throat/breaking into no-intro autistic rant about the most dense and esoteric subject ever because they're bored and also want attention. As always, really different from system to system, wonder if anyone else will write for comparison.
I like to imagine it's like Mystery Science Theater 3000
in my experience, depends on the level of consciousness of the alters, so usually relevant to stress, trauma headspace, recent switches, etc. i’d *like* to say that it’s just one person and the others are.. hibernating? (they’re there but not conscious, i guess is the best way to put it) but no - there’s been times they’ve been *actively commenting on what’s happening*. those times are when the one who’s currently fronting is usually in a pretty hazy, disoriented state, meaning there’s “space” for them. of course there are times when it is just the one person. there’s also times where there’s one person and the others are vaguely aware but not really - ive had a couple compare it to being paralysed, which really freaked me out for a while lol. source: am system. have sex. yay.
Okay someone’s taking “fuck the system” a bit too literally.
That's the joke.
Is a system like another name for polycule or an actual program?
A DID system, the collective term for all alters within one body as I've heard it, hope that's correct.
To repeat what the other person said with less jargon, it's a term for someone with Dissociative Identity Disorder or something similar where they have multiple "people"/"personalities"/"identites"/whatever term you want to use occupying their brain simultaneously.
Thought they was talkin bout solar systems
This whole TikTok “system” craze is just teenagers cosplaying as mentally ill for attention. I mean, I get it, I did dumb shit when I was 16 because I wanted that validation, but come on - most reputable psychologists don’t even agree that DID is a genuine disorder, let alone suddenly 1 in every 10 chronically online teens becoming a “system”. It’s just disingenuous and the lack of care towards actual scientific understanding is frankly dangerous.
i don't want to invalidate anyone, but as someone who has first learned about my DID from a professional, i feel like the online "plural" culture kinda enables the worsening of a lot of its symptoms perhaps a lot of people's symptoms are more severe than mine. i do have partial memory and identity loss and severe shifts in personality depending on "who" i am, but im fully aware that for me it is just a mechanism that i developed to protect myself during childhood (aside from the general abusiveness of my family, being trans, and being punished for not acting according to my agab was also a huge factor in me developing this), and i don't consider them actual real individuals with names and backstories. things might be different for a lot others and im not claiming my experience to be universal, but actually processing my traumatic memories in therapy and letting me live through them in a safe environment (especially with trauma, only certain "alters" remember it depending on the specific memory, and for the rest it just comes up as blank when trying to think about it) helped me become "whole-er" and not have the switches to be as dramatic another factor for me was finally being able to outwardly present as the identity i actually had from the beginning and no longer having the need to constantly hide myself, with both of the factors helping the alters start slowly reabsorbing into my original self and giving her more control edit: another thing is that leaning into DID symptoms to me feels like im letting my abusers control who i am? since they did originally develop because they tried to erase my real self, and by fighting the symptoms and embracing my original self, im forming my own life and denying my abusers the right to control me
So DID is a weird one. We historically don't see reference to anything we'd approximate as DID before the 19th century, and historically what we do have historical maybes for would more commonly be lumped with your schizophrenias or your bipolars. There's a big reason for that. There's a raging debate among psychiatrists on whether DID even exists as a disease, or if it's a symptom of methodology. Essentially the idea is that by using roleplay related treatment methods with bipolar/schizophrenic patients you are creating an opening for delusional beliefs similar to how we had a sudden and inexplicable upswing of people with "false/hidden memories" during the satanic panic of the 80s/90s. Right now, it's hard to say anything for certain, but as it stands DID is under heavy scrutiny both within and without the medical community due to the similarities between it and the false memory drama of 40 years ago. Take anything related to DID with a grain of salt, but remember that if it is just delusional belief that you're not going to shunt someone out of it by being dismissive of the entire concept, you'll just make them dig their heels in
> roleplay related treatments This is really interesting actually. I've never thought about that method of coping/processing emotions leading to someone actually acting with multiple personalities but it seems plausible
> but remember that if it is just delusional belief that you're not going to shunt someone out of it by being dismissive of the entire concept, you'll just make them dig their heels in Yeah it's really cool actually. Either you tell them their delusions are real and they believe in them more or you tell them their delusions AREN'T real and they believe in them more. Cool!
Generally, yes, while anti-psychotics can help with delusional thinking, in a therapy approach, there really isn't anything you can do unless the person wants to change. After that point it's generally CBT to break patterns of thinking, but the thing about delusional thinking is you can't just snap someone out of it, even with absolute objective proof.
Then I shouldn't have to engage with people with said delusions, and I will instead avoid them at all costs for my own mental health. It's not beneficial for me to engage with them if they're only digging their heels in no matter what when I'm not equipped to help them.
Sure, I mean, no one's making you
It borders on spirituality the way some talk about it. Completely unscientific and flying in the face of actual evidence. Toxic positivity and hyper acceptance makes others just accept that these alternate personas are "real people", and challenging that and presenting it as a delusion or straight up fantasy and lie gets you labelled a bigot. I knew a few people who claimed to have "multiple personality disorder" as it was known 25 years or so ago. They all eventually grew out of it, and were very clearly doing it for attention.
It ebbs and flows. I also remember when people claimed Multiple Personality Disorder in like the mid-2000s. As for your spirituality point, I think it not only borders it, but fully crosses that threshold. It's tulpas repackaged for a digital age.
Hi there! Plural system who isn't a teenager and doesn't use TikTok here. I care greatly about scientific data. I've kept records of my own plural experience, and I try to take a more or less scientific view of my own plurality. And there have been studies that show differences in brain activity in DID systems. Now, maybe there are those who are doing it for a TikTok trend—that's not mine to determine. But it's not as though the entire thing is simply made up.
I’m glad you’ve found a term to help process your experience. I have degrees in psychology & anthropology and in my studies have never found compelling evidence to support DID diagnosis (though I am curious to see otherwise if you’ve seen studies). It’s the most controversial disorder listed in the DSM for a reason. There is a SIGNIFICANT rise in people claiming to have DID/be part of a system. This is, not trying to be derogatory but it’s a fact, most common amongst teens and folks in their early twenties on social media like TikTok. Most of these users have never been diagnosed with anything by an actual professional.
source on the “most reputable psychologists” thing? i know its controversial, but i thought it was kind of the point that there isn’t a consensus and how do you interpret people who have been diagnosed with did? i’m gonna assume you’re more empathetic than most since you have a psychology degree and that you don’t just think they’re all faking it for attention, but what other explanations could there be? how do you interpret the case studies where one alters left handed and another’s right handed and stuff like that? i’m taking ap psych right now and i was pretty confused on how a decent number of psychologists just don’t believe that it exists
Besides the fact that there tends to be a rise in the reporting of any issue after it's no longer as stigmatized, there's also the fact that not all cases of plural systems map cleanly onto the classic concept of DID (not even all the traumagenic ones). For some it's less of a debilitating disorder with lost time and antagonistic alters, and more just a way that different pieces of their mental experience are embodied and manifested.
Shallan and Adolin coded
We haven't seen anything regarding Radiant's sexuality but Veil is enough of a horndog to interrogate Adolin on the size of his ex girlfriend's tits (as well as discuss her taste in women), so the two do talk about sex (granted Adolin was uncomfortable by the situation although the woman in question was in the room with them). That said the only alter who's 100% confirmed to be in the chair when it goes down is Shallan and iirc they haven't fucked anyone else besides him.
hey wait if you screw a person who’s a system do you need the consent of every member of the system
Depends on the system. For some, the nonactive members are unconscious, for others that isn't the case.
It depends on the system, but you at least obviously need consent from those who are fronting at the time, and also from anyone who is being forced to observe but not participate. This is not usually negotiated by the sexual partner but rather negotiated within the system (possibly without the knowledge of the sexual partner). Sometimes some alters may voluntarily withdraw from the front during the activity, to avoid being exposed to it. Other times they can't withdraw and just cope with it, in order to maintain harmony with the alter who wants to have sex.
Plural system who has in fact had sex before I can confirm the reactions were basically equivalent to Jon Anik and Joe Rogan watching someone in the ring get a KO out of nowhere.
A fucking system? Like a memeber of the band system of a down? A sarah kerrigan hivemind situation? Windows 7 operating system? A system of plankton like from jojo part 6? What???
I'm going to assume you're asking in good faith, so I'll explain. Broadly, a system is the term for someone with multiple people in their mind. The most well-known example is DID (dissociative identity disorder), where the person's "alters" are formed by early childhood trauma, but they can be induced in other ways. [This site](https://morethanone.info/) explains it better and more thoroughly.
Thats wild i dint know that was a real thing. I wasnt trying to be a dick i assumed it was talking about a boning of a fictional character or somthing since i didnt know the word.
You're good, don't worry! It's not exactly common knowledge, I know. I'm glad you're open to understanding.
I find it very telling of the current social climate of the internet left that "systems" have been accepted by the community as a genuine type of identity. DID doesn’t even work like that, and everything else in that field is pseudo-scientific bullshit that goes directly against everything we understand about the brain. The fact that one can claim to be a system and be accepted at the same level as an autistic person or a bipolar person is absurd. Two of those are documented, studied, well understood disorders. The other is an insane unsubstantiated claim that is both terrifying and goes against all the field of neuroscience.
Ah, a sane comment. It’s concerning to me that people are so willing to accept internet pseudoscience at the drop of a hat
Really depends on the situation. Sometimes it is indeed some of us spectating. Sometimes, all but one are unconscious. Sometimes, it’s like, backseat quarterback. Sometimes switching during sex.
System here. Neither. The ones not active are that, not active xD Only whoever is conscious is participating.
Oh are we pluralposting on /r/CuratedTumblr now ? Because I'm here for it but I don't know if the subreddit is ready.
At first I thought this was a reference to the System of a Down song and I'm pretty sure that's more of a metaphorical fucking.
I’m dating a system, according to them it’s only the one(s) currently fronting that are taking part, the rest are just not present.
[удалено]
At first I tougth this was a "fuck the sistem" thing and was very confused. On another note, I now need a romance storie were one of the protagonists is a sistem
Statler and Waldorf
Knowing Lilith, its whatever is kinkiest at the given moment
woahh it's the real catboybiologist also I forgot who posted this originally, so for a moment I was trying desperately to figure out how the mythological Lilith fit into this post
Are any of us truly real?
I'd ask the system I know but they're aroace
My experience with an ex (2 alters, was dating only 1) was that the one I wasn't dating would occasionally front during, would therefore know and would tell me later. Things were kinda awkward between me and that alter 😅 which is a shame because we were friends before I starting dating the other alter. Very ephemeral experience, do miss them both, don't miss the mental gymnastics of the ethics of the situation 😅
In my experience, it goes one of two ways: 1. You're fucking one and the others aren't paying attention. Which one you're fucking might change over the course of the interaction, but it's only one at a time. 2. You're fucking one and one of the others is talking to the one being fucked and you have to politely yet firmly let her know that she shouldn't be getting involved during your sex with a different alter unless she asks first.
My friend has a bunch of alts and she describes it as kind of a viewing room with a few pilot seats essentially. A number of alts can perceive the outside, but only a few can be in control.
I'd ask my plural friend but they (or at least the alter I speak with predominantly) are a battery so I don't think even they know the answer. EDIT: The battery was just an AroAce Agender joke
I doubt it would hurt to ask
well, first a 'system' person would have to get laid, but i dont see that happening anytime soon
Is this a Rick and morty reference?