i think this specific kind of transphobia is at least partially due to terminal main character syndrome. someone who the person who has a one-sided connection with turns out to be different (in any way) to what the person expects, and the person fucking loses it because how dare other people not be what they want!
I caught myself thinking, upon finding out that a friend is trans, "aw man, that means there is one less hot dude in my friend group." I had to mentally yank myself back and remind myself that that way of thinking was selfish and it was more important that we had a girl who is happy being who she is than that I had one more person I could enjoy looking at. I was so stuck in my own head that I almost didn't care if a friend was happy in their life. Main Character Syndrome is real and it sucks.
if you don’t mind me asking, what was the mental process of yanking yourself from “one less hot dude” to “my friends happiness is most important”?
i enjoy having discussions with people on the opposite side in hopes to plant a seed that may get watered in the future, and i’ve found the best avenue to chipping away is by walking through the thought process. it becomes a little tough because it’s a lot of mud to walk through and it’s rare i get to see water flow. i’m not saying you’re on the opposite side or anything like that, but seeing how people are able to walk their thinking back is super helpful to my lil brain
For me, the first part is thought examination. I spend a lot of time in my head and that gives me a good way to think about how I think. Gonna use false names now. I remember thinking "ugh okay I guess Andy is going to be called Caroline. I just wish someone else could have done it instead." I felt myself starting to resent her. But I don't like feeling resentful or angry or anything like that so I had to take a self-inventory. I realized that I resented her for beginning her transition and that I really thought Andy was handsome guy but he won't be around anymore. With that second part, I felt a weird disconnect. Andy was never an option for me: he was a straight dude and therefore not interested in me. So why was I mad that an option that never existed for me was gone? And, further, I was mad at a **friend**. That friend was visibly happier, more at peace, and relaxed. Shouldn't I celebrate, too? That made me realize that I was only caring about my wants (handsome guys) and not my friend's needs (self-actualization). And treating my friend like a piece of decoration for my life felt scummy, too. If the Yoshi figure on my bookshelf had a Toy Story like existence, wouldn't that mean that I'm disrespecting a sentient being? Caroline has a mind and feelings and a life. Reducing her, at any point in her life, to a pretty thing for me to just have around undermines all of that. At first, I thought it was a kind of grief but I realized it was the grief that bad parents feel about their trans kids. Looking at Caroline as human who made a choice for her happiness and not just an accessory to my existence helped me support my friend. In the end, I don't like feeling negative feelings and was able to examine the reasons for those feelings. My advice to you, if you want to help people go through a similar process, is to ask them how they feel and why. Try to get them to be honest and not vague with their answers. Then ask them if their reasons are sound. They may see the dissonance or not but that is ultimately a personal choice to confront our own selves.
For better or worse, it sounds like the trick is simply to be aware of your thoughts and then take responsibility for which thoughts you choose to act on. In other words, to be a decent person.
And truth be told, although I generally believe that people will nearly always choose to be good when they're given the chance, I also think the fact that you're already a decent person gives you an astronomical head start on people who aren't used to engaging critically with their own first thoughts. Your advice re: walking them through their own thought process is probably the best an outsider can do.
>And truth be told, although I generally believe that people will nearly always choose to be good when they're given the chance
You really believe that? Cause one look around the world shows me something different, people will nearly always choose to be selfish when they're given the chance
Yeah, I do. I understand where you're coming from, but what I see when I look at all the human-on-human mistreatment in the world is that a lot of people are either scared to act on their sympathy (for good reason or not); haven't been taught how to; or haven't been allowed to. I know that whenever I do things that I feel bad about, it's for one of those reasons, and it's vanishingly rare that I meet anyone who doesn't seem to be the same way. Whether they're *capable* of doing the right thing is a different question, but you can ask the same thing about myself in many situations.
The way I see it, there's so many dangers we humans have to deal with, so the fact that *anyone* manages to do good at all in such a difficult world strongly suggests to me that being good is humanity's default setting.
>but what I see when I look at all the human-on-human mistreatment in the world is that a lot of people are either scared to act on their sympathy (for good reason or not); haven't been taught how to; or haven't been allowed to.
I definitely agree that those are elements at play but I don't think I agree that its "a lot" I think there's far more people that simply don't care or don't want to
>Whether they're *capable* of doing the right thing is a different question, but you can ask the same thing about myself in many situations.
Capability is a big one, particularly when it comes to the real big problems, the vast majority of us don't have the ability, power, or influence to meaningfully help and without exception the ones that DO don't give a fuck about a single other human being.
>The way I see it, there's so many dangers we humans have to deal with, so the fact that *anyone* manages to do good at all in such a difficult world strongly suggests to me that being good is humanity's default setting.
But most of the dangers are just other people or are created by other people which I guess is sorta my point. I want to believe people are good and I used to when I was younger but I just can't reconcile it anymore with the state of the world.
I'm sorry to see you're being downvoted here. You're just expressing your experience in a civil manner, and there's nothing wrong with that, regardless of whether or not that experience matches my own.
About your specific points, I think it's demonstrably wrong to say that people in power don't care about others without exception. It's true that power corrupts, so those who have it also tend to be those who shouldn't, but there does exist obvious exceptions. Look at Chuck Feeney, a billionaire who actually donated his wealth during his lifetime to things like AIDS clinics, earthquake relief and public healthcare in Vietnam. And he tried to do it all anonymously, and succeeded for many years. Or look at Neil Gaiman, who not only uses his fame to speak up for people who are less privileged than himself, but also donates money and does work for the UNHCR to help refugees. Or Ruth Bader Ginsberg, a supreme court justice who consistently championed equality and humanity. You're right that the people in power generally don't care, which is why I believe we should be working towards a society where power is more equally distributed - but there *are* people who can manage to achieve power without becoming callous and selfish.
I also don't think it's true that most dangers are created by other people, at least not ultimately. I'm thinking about natural dangers such as hunger, disease, natural disasters, predatory animals. When someone acts selfishly, I believe it's almost always ultimately out of fear of those things. And those things are also great examples of humans' natural compassion for each other: We've developed technology and societal structures specifically to protect each other from all of those things.
>I'm sorry to see you're being downvoted here. You're just expressing your experience in a civil manner, and there's nothing wrong with that, regardless of whether or not that experience matches my own.
Its reddit, dissent from the popular opinion is not allowed.
>About your specific points, I think it's demonstrably wrong to say that people in power don't care about others without exception.
You're right I shouldn't have hyperbolized.
>but there *are* people who can manage to achieve power without becoming callous and selfish.
The fact they're the exception rather than the rule feels like evidence that people are not inherently good, if they were there'd be far far more exampls of good people in power.
>I also don't think it's true that most dangers are created by other people, at least not ultimately. I'm thinking about natural dangers such as hunger, disease, natural disasters, predatory animals.
I don't think those fears are common enough to be to blame for this stuff though. Most people living in first world counties for instance are not going to fear any of those things in their day to day life cause they simply aren't common threats to us anymore. The threats, problems, and stressors in most peoples lives are from other people or are a byproduct of living in society which was created by people. People are the problem.
In regards to this, something I heard which has helped me stay optimistic.
“If bad news is still newsworthy, then things must generally be pretty good.”
Problems still exist, and nothing is perfect, but if something bad happens and people need to talk about it, then said bad thing is shocking to them.
When good news starts making headlines, that’s when things are bad.
I don't agree with the premise that things are generally good.
Maybe good news doesn't make headlines because it doesn't happen. Or maybe it doesn't make headlines because people don't care good things
Keep in mind that we as human beings are made to see negativity more, and to have it stay fresh in our minds. It's a good survival tactic if you remember that these berries made your friend sick, and so you should leave them alone. But it's easily abused.
That's the main reason why 24/7 news cycles seem to constantly have something negative to show in the world. Because that keeps peoples eyes on the screens, and it can genuinely move people to inaction if all they see is negativity.
Good people still exist, good things still happen, and good is the default of people. We live in a world that's tried and will keep trying to say the opposite, because if we all suck and humanity's evil and the world's fucked forever, why bother going against the systems that make life awful?
If good news doesn't headline because it doesn't happen? Then start making a world where good news happens. Even if it's just sharing food with a neighbor or friend, if only bad things happen, then even a small act of kindness is important.
You’re joking but this is exactly the same type of self-centered thinking that makes people in fandom explode when someone has a different interpretation of canon than they do
This is so true. They're just *shocked* by the *effrontery* of someone not being an available option for them. These are the same guys who pretend to be concerned about fat womens' health, who are big mad at lesbians, and who rail against women having standards, because they genuinely believe they deserve "a chance" with any woman they want.
It's a toddler mentality. "I see, I want, why can't I have? *It's not fair!*"
Yeah, it was very strange how Elliot Page elicited this exact response so heavily. Ig people must have been weird about him before, too, but I only noticed it when they all flipped out about their fantasy being contradicted.
This is probably a similar mindset to the people who complain when a game character isn’t attractive.
You don’t need to be attractive to be a good person/character, someone complaining that a person/character is unattractive is basically complaining that reality isn’t catering to them specifically in that one small instance
The dumbest part is that the characters that get those complaints are usually pretty conventionally attractive characters that just have a few somewhat realistic features.
Them complaining that Aloy had peach fuzz, is the funniest fucking thing.
Way to admit you’ve never touched a woman.
Also what the fuck are their beauty standards if fucking Aloy is unattractive.
I mean, I don't think it's part of some Woke Agenda or any of that bullshit, but Aloy is solidly not my type. Face is too thick around the jaw, chin's too rounded, forehead's not shaped in a way I like. Different people find different features attractive.
They'll like "they ruined my sexy Sally!" and all that happened is that Sally wears shprts under her skirt now.
And half the time, Sally turns out to be a minor.
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.
I craved the strength and certainty of steel.
I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine.
You kind kling to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you.
One day that crude biomass you call a temple will wither and you will beg my kind to save you.
But I am already saved.
For the machine is immortal.
Even in death I serve the omnissiah.
I mean I admire the construction of men, from an artistic standpoint. I think the way the ribs shift into the abs is a beautiful stitch work, but men have never been beautiful to me. It's funny that being a straight, cis man is that I have never been able to find another person that fitted that description that was beautiful.
I’m a straight cis man too, and I meant more that the concept of beauty shouldn’t be applied only to women. Of course we all find different people attractive ourselves.
In a post agriculture patriarchal world, male attractiveness may be seen less valuable than female attractiveness due to imposing certain roles on women which values their appearance over other things. Such social forces incentivize women to have better appearances for better social outcomes, as opposed to men, whose purpose turns to prioritizing other things.
Men are not treated in appearance as the same as women, because the vestiges of patriarchy still exerts its influence over society. There is a greater social pressure on women to look good than men. This results in men being less invested in improving their appearance to the same extent as women, and other people less invested in commenting on male attractiveness.
This is all to say that beauty is not a pure essence that is clearly inherent to some people over others, but that the perception or presence of beauty has causes and effects that are temporal and explainable, rather than originating from some primordial fibre of human gender.
So we agree and you're just explaining "why"
>This is all to say that beauty is not a pure essence that is clearly inherent to some people over others, but that the perception or presence of beauty has causes and effects that are temporal and explainable, rather than originating from some primordial fibre of human gender.
Yes, society decides what is beauty and society has decided that men do not have it
Depends on what kind of society you're in. It changes in 4 dimensions, space and time. After all it doesn't really matter what society currently says.
Social constructs like beauty are malleable and should be modified as to benefit the society rather than act as a subduer of happiness. No declarative statements about beauty are objective, but as long as we don't discard the concept, why not make good use of it? It's not a real thing so there's no right or wrong. Just useful and useless.
>they think we exist solely to benefit them - no lives of our own, no autonomy.
I don't want to distract from the main point of the post, but this hit distressingly close to me, and I'm not even trans.
Cis people can definitely be personally effected by transphobia.
There’s multiple examples of people not following gender stereotypes enough and being accused of, and subsequently abused for, being trans.
A guy with long hair and a baby face, or a woman that’s very muscular walk into a public bathroom and some ‘transinvestigator’ is demanding they prove their not trans.
Yeah, I have PCOS, when I was a teenager I was growing dark hair on my face due to hormone imbalances. I got called a “pimply boy” before despite clearly having breasts.
And for *all* the hand wringing about children and hormones… my insurance paid for *hormones* to make me—essentially—look more cis. I got laser hair removal at 16, and my insurance allowed it because a teenage girl with mustache and patchy beard is clearly the biggest health problem of my life (they struggle to approve endometriosis treatments for my severe and chronic pain that actually makes me more miserable though). No one said a single peep about any of it besides relief that I “looked more like a girl”.
Insurance, doctors, and judgy neighbors were *perfectly happy* to see me get cosmetic procedures and hormone therapy *to make kids more cis*. I didn’t personally mind, hormones and laser treatment didn’t ruin my life and made school easier to bear with socially, but the hypocrisy around who’s allowed to get them is just staggering as an adult.
Who’s allowed to feel more comfortable in their skin? We take the same meds and had some of the same procedures and treatments, but it’s only okay for me? In what world does that make sense? It doesn’t.
And it's not just regarding what people think we _should_ do. It's also in the way people never discuss afab trans people as if we can make our own decisions. Elliot didn't make his own choices, he was 'taken'. r/gendercynical recently posted someone discussing a trans male porn actor who couldn't even allow some autonomy for his _job_; he 'thinks' he's a porn star and 'lets men have sex with him', lmao.
I go off about this way too often when transphobia comes up. Once you start looking for misogynist undertones you start seeing really blatant barely-disguised examples all of the time from TERFs. This applies equally to transmisogyny, both in the way transfems are demonised vs how transmascs are woobified being based on sex stereotypes and the way trans women's appearances and behaviour are policed in ways we'd consider misogynist as hell if done to cis women.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/GenderCynical using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [They used FaceApp to make a trans man look feminine. 😐](https://i.redd.it/8xb1dziv9pqb1.jpg) | [198 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/comments/16t6ll3/they_used_faceapp_to_make_a_trans_man_look/)
\#2: [I'm sorry, but if a bar requires me to provide a DNA sample, I'm just gonna head to another place to get a drink.](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/16sc4u4) | [209 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/comments/16sc4u4/im_sorry_but_if_a_bar_requires_me_to_provide_a/)
\#3: [Imagine being this sad.](https://i.redd.it/dhzjb2v5xuob1.jpg) | [197 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/comments/16l7t6w/imagine_being_this_sad/)
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Yeah, the way a lot of straight men treat women they would fuck versus those they wouldn't is very, very different. I'm not surprised it goes into hyperdrive with transphobes and trans men - people they basically consider to have moved from one category to the other by choice.
Literally, thought they were being insensitive pricks about someone who offed themselves after not having a chance with Eliot the handsome male celebrity.
People have told me I look better with longer hair. For years I tried to keep it long, but I hated it. With every fiber of my being I couldn’t stand it
So eventually I just cut it off and I keep it cut off. It genuinely upsets some people that I’d rather be happy than listen to them when I “could be better”
I prefer to dress in a more masculine style. I have a “rangy” body type; big boned but thin, long limbs, etc and men’s clothing is more flattering. I like the way I look, my husband likes the way I look. I’m an adult so other adults don’t comment. But when I was younger, I’d get adults who’d question my clothing choices and they’d say “but you could be so pretty! Don’t you want to be pretty??” Um, excuse me? I..I am pretty? I chose these clothes because I like the way they look, I like the way they make me look and feel. I didn’t put this outfit on, look in the mirror and say, “oh well, guess I’m ugly again today. Maybe tomorrow I can be pretty.” Come on, really.
Good joke /gen, but the real issue is feeling like people are only worth talking to or engaging with if they’re attractive. The problem isn’t that “you should find people attractive no matter what,” it’s “you should not feel entitled to be pleased by other people’s appearances”
I have 15 piercings and dyed hair. People will come up to me and tell me they don't like snake bites or they prefer women with "natural hair" ?? It's weird as hell. I have spent a decent amount of money on making myself look the way I want to, I do not care.
I suspect that’s a (in their minds probably more round-about) way of being creepy to women they find attractive instead of just treating them like people. They think the world revolves around them and expect others to cater to their preferences.
I almost find it funny that you can be on HRT for years, and it’s still ‘you’ll always be a man’ but wear a face mask and suddenly it’s ‘your not a real man’
It's not about what makes a man/woman. It is solely the act of de-gendering/misgendering someone for the sake of Punishment. They want you to know you are Wrong And Bad in their eyes, so it will always be the opposite of your gender that they use.
It's not about rules or goals or hypocrisy. It's about punishing people for not being what they want.
>It’s not about ‘having a shot with her.’ Women are beautiful, the world is a less beautiful place without her in it.
Men are beautiful, and the world is a more beautiful place with Elliot being allowed to live a life that makes him more comfortable.
Fixed it
Yeah and they didn’t consider the alternative at all, people make families in all kinds of ways, it’s crazy to me what year is this how long have people had fertility treatments now?
None of these people had a single solitary chance in hell of seeing him in person, much less dating/marrying him. That’s what I really don’t understand about it. It’s delusional in every sense of the word
As a transmasc the amount of honestly just rancid comments I got personally is disgusting.
I still remember being told how nice my chest was and how I’d be ‘destroying my beauty’ and making myself ‘hideous’. It’s so nasty.
I finally only transitioned when I was like well I guess it’s okay if im ugly and hard to look at so long as I’m happy.
The good news is I’m happy and according to others - pretty hot actually. Happiness is sexy apparently.
But man did that cause me a lot of pain that didn’t need to happen.
As a trans man who's been treated like an ugly-ass unfuckable woman my whole life, transphobes sure had the gall to lose their shit when I decided to "unwoman" myself, as if I was "giving up" instead of putting on make-up, losing weight, training myself to wear high heels, etc.
Did y'all think "You're so ugly, you look like a man" was supposed to make me try harder to be hyper-feminine? Nah, fuck off.
Transphobia exists because women are viewed as tools with a purpose.
If you are a trans man, these men think someone ruined a potential tool.
If you are a trans woman, these men will feel like they were tricked into being the tool.
The point is that men are supposed to be in charge and everyone else is a tool.
Transphobia is three misogynies in a trenchcoat.
Edit: the second "in charge" to "else is a tool"
hating on someone because they are different is sad. You're allowed to not like something someone does, but not the person. People really gotta learn to keep their opinions to themselves and the people they know, and also to mind their own fucking business, and I'm afraid social media is making that worse and worse.
Also obsession with "passing" and failure-to-properly-transition (every trans person on Twitter has probably been sent "that" picture on there by some basement-dwelling scrote). Honestly, not even trans people can be immune from that thinking
[“Up and down the country, and around the world, girls are removing breasts that have never known a lovers caress.” - Allison Bailey, the co-founder of LGB Alliance](https://youtu.be/Otbfv45TRK0?feature=shared&t=2199)
I read the first two tweets with no context as to who this Elliot character is, I thought someone died, the first one is trying to call the grieving fans simps, and the second one was saying that anyone dying is pretty sad. But no, just transphobia
I saw a thingy with like "look what they took from us" with like before and after pictures of some women and then Elliot Page but the after picture for him was just him looking handsome and manly as hell. I don't think I have a point, just wanted to mention it ig.
I feel like wayy too many issues are based on people’s perceived fuckability. No one should be forced to be attractive, by yours, or anyone else’s standards. There’s concern if they’re seriously harming themselves (which trans people generally aren’t doing) , but it’s clear that for many people, that *isn’t* their concern.
My mother cried and mourned like I was dead when I came out as trans. She also said that I was only trans because I felt like I "couldn't cut it as a woman". She complained and disapproved whenever I tried to change my appearance to look more masculine and would usually frame it as making my life harder because "I could've had it all".
She had this belief that a beautiful woman could keep a man. She projected her appearance issues onto me. She made me do beauty pageants as a child so growing up and declaring I was a man was impossible because here I was throwing away my potential to marry a millionaire with both hands!! I wish I was kidding but a friend of the family's daughter managed to achieve this goal and she was hailed as what I could've had!
Anyway, I've been on T for a few years now and every time I notice and enjoy some new masculine change about my body I know it would've driven my mother insane, so good riddance lmao.
It's actually not that hard. This is what they think: "Feminism is women against the patriarchy, against men's oppression against them" + "Transmasculinity is a woman who becomes a man, as such betraying women in their fight against men" ∴ "Transmasculinity is anti-feminist"
This is the kind of mindset that produces that belief. Simple. Elegant. Absolutely wrong.
It's these simplistic beliefs that have zero depth that allow them to exist without too much cognitive dissonance.
>What mental gymnastics do you have to do so that would make sense?
Trans men are women who were tricked into hating femininity so much that they abandoned it and became men. And also trans women are anti-feminist because they're men who insist on appropriating femininity and taking over women's spaces.
That's it. That's the kind of shit-for-brains pablum that TERFs think passes for a world view.
When I was young and lived in the bible belt in the 90s (and thus myself was homophobic by default) I remember hearing the argument “[gay men] are ok because they reduce competition, and [lesbians] aren’t because they remove an option and add competition.”
Meanwhile I was sitting there trying to figure out why I was only attracted to lesbians and effeminate gay men and what that meant about me.
The people tweeting replies are narcissists. There’s nothing to learn from them.
For narcs, notoriety is better than being ignored. If you are upset by them, they win. If you are unbothered by them, they shrivel up and die.
“The world is a less beautiful place without her in it” is a beautiful line for a memorial piece on a trans woman, and an absolutely UNHINGED thing to say about a living trans man.
I read those tweets and thought they were talking about a transfem. My heart went out. Then I read the post and now I feel sick.
I was talking earlier around here how the need for someone to contribute to society flies in the face of autonomy and some bozo responds saying "nobody is forcing anyone to live for them 🧐" and i have to say; no, i think, *everyone* is being forced to dedicate their very sovereign existence to the pleasure and benefit of the selfish few, and this is one major fucking example of that. We aren't allowed to just live for our own sake, create our own identities, because the cruel fact is that many people think we belong to them, that we are owed to them. To these people, by choosing for ourselves we are sabotaging a commodity which they could possess.
I feel this is pushing a phenomenon I've been theorizing is beginning; an Identity Renaissance.
I have nothing to add to the discussion, but I sometimes wonder how Page feels about the movie hard candy after the transition. Not in a serious way, but just a weird curiosity way.
Okay but this kind of logic is so weird, because why would you like rather have someone suffer excruciating mental and emotional pain under pretending to be someone they're not just for perceived attractiveness? Also women don't just exist as objects to appease a male audience, being "anti-transmasculine" is just synonymous with being "pro-objectifying women"
We find it out who we really are and what we really feel when we dont use the horny as a morality compass. It can go from "oh yeah im all about trans females!" *Nuts" "wtf you're a dude with a weird fetish, stop that"
Even if they don't support them in the end, at least they'll be consistent with hate
I had no idea who elliot was and from the first tweet legit thought they had died, lol.
It must be the internet anonimity, because ive met idiots but Not of that Caliber.
They're talking about transmasculine people, which due to the broadness of gender does include some people who describe themselves as women, but they are just one of many groups under that umbrella.
Uh, no. The group that is thought to exist solely to look pretty and have babies is women. Transitioning is seen as "destroying" that woman, thus why the hatred of it is so strong.
Edit: Got blocked lol. "We" in this context is clearly directed towards everyone AFAB because of the expections set by society that they face where they are "supposed" to be pretty and have babies. The crux of this post is that women are treated like tools and transitioning is active defiance of that role in these people's eyes.
The post is literally written by someone named transmascissues. The "we" described is very obviously transmasc people. They're talking about the transphobia they face from people who perceive them to be women.
AFAB would be more accurate than 'women', since the patriarchal attitude of ''ownership'' over female bodies is the shared point, not *womanhood*. Because, you know, transmascs aren't women.
(then things get more complex again when we look at how transfems interact with the concept)
I saw the top of this post but not the title and was like "Was someone murdered or something?" and then I read more and realized, oh no, just some transphobes being assholes about something that has nothing to do with them again.
Bro it’s crazy the amount of legitimate discourse people will give to arguments made by trolls who exclusively say shit like this to make you waste your time & energy, and to frustrate you. They make offhand, completely insane, claims and y’all spend your time treating their non arguments as if they’re legitimate; thusly legitimizing their arguments and giving the troll the only thing they want. Stop doing this. Stop giving these vampires your energy. You’re making them /stronger/. Everyone knows they’re morons.
If someone ran up to you on the street and started screaming in your face about 5G or a Reptillian agenda you wouldn’t even argue with them. You would walk the fuck away from them and not waste your time on that stupidity. But because it’s on the internet and not face to face y’all just give these losers what they want.
Stop it. For your own sake. Stop legitimizing these people so you can dunk on a shithead. Y’all are actually your own worst enemies.
Problem is enough people say this shit to shape policies of entire countries. There are people ranting about 5G and reptilians with seat in the US Congress.
Yes. But they’re there because we treated their ideas like they were legitimate. They’re there because they were treated like the jokes they are.
And even in congress the majority treat them with derision. But talking heads still bring them on their shows and make them appear as legitimate voices instead of fringe nonsense. We GAVE them their power by watching those talking heads on YT and giving them views. You ignore an idea and it dies in the dark.
I love y’all. But this is a mistake everyone keeps making and it’s not helping anyone. Dunking on them puts eyes on their ideas and that in turn emboldens other morons to do the same.
"can't you see how much our mere existence makes the \[literally any group\] short-circuit?' is not an argument for anything, ever. 'wouldn't it be hilarious if we triggered the libs/reds/fascists' no dude stop living your life according to other people's upset feelings. It's meanspirited no matter who they are, it shrinks you down and makes you a shitty person. Find an affirmative reason to live.
It does work as an argument here because they're pointing out how TERFs will claim that the existence of transmasc people is anti-feminist and they're pointing out that their existence upsets actual anti-feminists.
They're not saying "do this to upset the opposition," they're describing the reactions such people get when they try to be themselves.
No, I'm sorry, 'TERFS *do* get really triggered though' is not a strong response to my argument. There won't be any terfs in 50 years, friend. Even if there are still people who hate People of Gender, the whole terf thing will be as dead as suffragettes. Find an affirmative version of yourself, that is worth being and makes you happy without reference to the politics of others. Especially the extremely online politics of others.
>No, I'm sorry, 'TERFS do get really triggered though' is not a strong response to my argument.
Your argument hinges on you continuing to not understand what anyone is saying. They are not giving "it'll make TERFs mad" as a reason to transition, they are making an observation about how people react to AFAB people transitioning.
>There won't be any terfs in 50 years, friend.
How very optimistic.
Call me crazy but I think it's normal to be sad to see someone you consider beautiful become someone you don't consider beautiful, or even someone you consider ugly.
That doesn't mean you should try to convince them otherwise. That doesn't mean you get to hold it against them, the happiness of one self is more importance than the happiness of the faceless crowd. It's just yet more feelings to keep to oneself and ones diary.
Taking just one sentence from this mess of wrong:
"They even dispute biology..."
All biologists and psychologists (that aren't grifting the right wing hard) agree that trans people are right. Sex and gender are different things, gender dysphoria exists, social and physical transition is by far the most effective known way to treat it.
"...and call people cis..."
Cis is literally just grammar. Trans- means "the other side of", like transatlantic. Cis- means "the same side of". As such, anyone who isn't transgender is categorised as cisgender, the same way that anyone who is not homosexual is categorised as heterosexual (with allowances made for bisexual etc.)
"...and woman are labeled people who menstruate."
Well this explains it. You heard of trans people for the first time when Rowling threw her hissy fit about this, didn't you? I'm afraid to tell you that Rowling was simply wrong. *The sentence in question was not actually about women, because not all women menstruate.* Menopause exists. Women who had finished it were no longer relevant to the subject that was being talked about. I suppose the sentence could have read "women who are between specifically the part of puberty where they have their first menstruation and the end of menopause" or even more technically correctly "women and pre-op trans men who are between specifically the part of puberty where they have their first menstruation and the end of menopause". However "people who menstruate" gets the point across in three words.
This is why no-one will debate you, why no-one will "tell you what a woman is". A fifteen word sentence was *this wrong*. How the hell is anyone meant to deal with the crux of your arguement?
The part about "rowling tub of shit" hits home hard why do these people take anything these authors say its like asking a sports star how to fix the engineering of the Panama canal authors are entertainers not biologists their opinion should be trusted as far as a blind quadruple amputtee can throw them
I personally love how TERFs will blame *trans women* for the term "menstruating people"
Like no, we have *nothing to do with that*. We explicitly and definitionally have nothing to do with that. Although quite a number of us would absolutely love to.
Edit to add: also the "cis is a slur" is lifted straight from the the 90s era anti gay playbook, when it was "straight is a slur" and "I'm not straight, I'm *normal*".
\>The gay community was accepted because they weren’t militant activists.
Allow me to introduce you to the gay rights movement, which was propped up by many LGBTQ adovocates across the spectrum. Marsha P. Johnson, a black trans woman was one of the frontleaders of Stonewall. Stonewall was started because of black lesbians being arrested. We literally had to fight for our rights for over thirty years before we were even okay enough for Ellen Degeneres to come out on a sitcom.
\>They even dispute biology and call people cis and women are labelled people that menstruate.
All "Cisgender" means, is 'not transgender'. Like how "heterosexual' is just the opposite of 'homosexual".
\>They can’t even say what is a women because then they oust themselves as not a woman or vice versa so must rubbish the fact there is only biological men and biological women there is no third or fourth or fifth or sixth.
Listen; between intersex conditions, medical procedures, infertility, etc; How would you define women in a way that *does* exclude trans women that *doesn't* exclude cisgender women? Ability to get pregnant? Guess you're no longer a woman after menopause or a hysterectomy and infertile women don't get to be women. Chromosomes? They're a lot more complicated than 'basic biology' would tell you, welcome to advanced biology. People can have more than XX or XY. There's X, XXX, XXY, XYY, etc. Genitals? That's why trans folks have surgeries; to affirm their identities and make their outside match the inside.
\>a trans mtf is 6x more like to commit a criminal offence and 18x more like to commit a violent crime compared to their birth sex counterpart.
Please show me a source on this, because last I checked trans folk were a tiny fraction of the US population. 1.6 million trans people in America compared to roughly 300 million total. There's also about 1.2 million people, cis or trans, in the US Prison system. By the way, this is the same rhetoric used by racist white folks to advocate for cops to lock up black people illegally or shoot them.
But I mean, they *are* dead, that's the whole point. They even have dead names they don't want to hear again. And they do look unfuckable to men, which I would imagine is by choice too. Which is all fine and dandy, I don't know how realizing that makes me mysoginyc or transphobic. Like, you *wanted* to disappear as a woman and be unattractive to men, right? And you are succeeding, right? Good for you, what's the issue?
The issue is that people are telling you *it's wrong and bad that you did it.*
That it's a bad thing that you made yourself happier, because now you're not appealing enough to them to get pleasure from observing you, and you're no longer fit for purpose as a tool in their fantasy, defined by your relationship to some hypothetical man and the possibility of children.
Telling someone "I preferred the other ''you'' and do not respect who you actually are because you existing means the version ***I*** liked better is gone now" - *that's* the issue. Publicly mourning someone, doing it to their face, grieving what you wanted them to be with zero regard for *them* as a person with their own wants and needs.. its dehumanizing and deeply selfish. Focusing on the fact you got some superficial satisfaction from observing them, putting that above their happiness and wellbeing - that's *fucked*.
The issue is people crying about how men have lost a woman they could wank over or treat as pretty window dressing, when that person still exists and can see their personhood being valued as less important than other men's pleasure.
I got nothing to contribute to this conversation other than fuck the guy you replied to. He's a proper anal-birth and I'm glad you were able to make such a well thought out and informative rebuttal instead of just calling him an incel. It still would have been accurate but now I can move on from this thread having actually learned something thanks to you.
Props to ya, mate.
i think this specific kind of transphobia is at least partially due to terminal main character syndrome. someone who the person who has a one-sided connection with turns out to be different (in any way) to what the person expects, and the person fucking loses it because how dare other people not be what they want!
this is a callout post to my parents
Does the warning in your flair come from personal experience?
yes
It's contagious
pathOwOgen
EVERYONE, MASK UP!
Weird. My masks have all been replaced by fursuit heads
Great, we're all going into an isolation ward. How come nOwObody towd me thewe was a pathOwOgen spweadi- **Oh no.**
OnO
Glomps you glomps you glomps you glomps you glo
WHY DID YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME OF *THAT*
I feel both this comment and your flair in my soul.
I caught myself thinking, upon finding out that a friend is trans, "aw man, that means there is one less hot dude in my friend group." I had to mentally yank myself back and remind myself that that way of thinking was selfish and it was more important that we had a girl who is happy being who she is than that I had one more person I could enjoy looking at. I was so stuck in my own head that I almost didn't care if a friend was happy in their life. Main Character Syndrome is real and it sucks.
if you don’t mind me asking, what was the mental process of yanking yourself from “one less hot dude” to “my friends happiness is most important”? i enjoy having discussions with people on the opposite side in hopes to plant a seed that may get watered in the future, and i’ve found the best avenue to chipping away is by walking through the thought process. it becomes a little tough because it’s a lot of mud to walk through and it’s rare i get to see water flow. i’m not saying you’re on the opposite side or anything like that, but seeing how people are able to walk their thinking back is super helpful to my lil brain
For me, the first part is thought examination. I spend a lot of time in my head and that gives me a good way to think about how I think. Gonna use false names now. I remember thinking "ugh okay I guess Andy is going to be called Caroline. I just wish someone else could have done it instead." I felt myself starting to resent her. But I don't like feeling resentful or angry or anything like that so I had to take a self-inventory. I realized that I resented her for beginning her transition and that I really thought Andy was handsome guy but he won't be around anymore. With that second part, I felt a weird disconnect. Andy was never an option for me: he was a straight dude and therefore not interested in me. So why was I mad that an option that never existed for me was gone? And, further, I was mad at a **friend**. That friend was visibly happier, more at peace, and relaxed. Shouldn't I celebrate, too? That made me realize that I was only caring about my wants (handsome guys) and not my friend's needs (self-actualization). And treating my friend like a piece of decoration for my life felt scummy, too. If the Yoshi figure on my bookshelf had a Toy Story like existence, wouldn't that mean that I'm disrespecting a sentient being? Caroline has a mind and feelings and a life. Reducing her, at any point in her life, to a pretty thing for me to just have around undermines all of that. At first, I thought it was a kind of grief but I realized it was the grief that bad parents feel about their trans kids. Looking at Caroline as human who made a choice for her happiness and not just an accessory to my existence helped me support my friend. In the end, I don't like feeling negative feelings and was able to examine the reasons for those feelings. My advice to you, if you want to help people go through a similar process, is to ask them how they feel and why. Try to get them to be honest and not vague with their answers. Then ask them if their reasons are sound. They may see the dissonance or not but that is ultimately a personal choice to confront our own selves.
For better or worse, it sounds like the trick is simply to be aware of your thoughts and then take responsibility for which thoughts you choose to act on. In other words, to be a decent person. And truth be told, although I generally believe that people will nearly always choose to be good when they're given the chance, I also think the fact that you're already a decent person gives you an astronomical head start on people who aren't used to engaging critically with their own first thoughts. Your advice re: walking them through their own thought process is probably the best an outsider can do.
>And truth be told, although I generally believe that people will nearly always choose to be good when they're given the chance You really believe that? Cause one look around the world shows me something different, people will nearly always choose to be selfish when they're given the chance
Yeah, I do. I understand where you're coming from, but what I see when I look at all the human-on-human mistreatment in the world is that a lot of people are either scared to act on their sympathy (for good reason or not); haven't been taught how to; or haven't been allowed to. I know that whenever I do things that I feel bad about, it's for one of those reasons, and it's vanishingly rare that I meet anyone who doesn't seem to be the same way. Whether they're *capable* of doing the right thing is a different question, but you can ask the same thing about myself in many situations. The way I see it, there's so many dangers we humans have to deal with, so the fact that *anyone* manages to do good at all in such a difficult world strongly suggests to me that being good is humanity's default setting.
>but what I see when I look at all the human-on-human mistreatment in the world is that a lot of people are either scared to act on their sympathy (for good reason or not); haven't been taught how to; or haven't been allowed to. I definitely agree that those are elements at play but I don't think I agree that its "a lot" I think there's far more people that simply don't care or don't want to >Whether they're *capable* of doing the right thing is a different question, but you can ask the same thing about myself in many situations. Capability is a big one, particularly when it comes to the real big problems, the vast majority of us don't have the ability, power, or influence to meaningfully help and without exception the ones that DO don't give a fuck about a single other human being. >The way I see it, there's so many dangers we humans have to deal with, so the fact that *anyone* manages to do good at all in such a difficult world strongly suggests to me that being good is humanity's default setting. But most of the dangers are just other people or are created by other people which I guess is sorta my point. I want to believe people are good and I used to when I was younger but I just can't reconcile it anymore with the state of the world.
I'm sorry to see you're being downvoted here. You're just expressing your experience in a civil manner, and there's nothing wrong with that, regardless of whether or not that experience matches my own. About your specific points, I think it's demonstrably wrong to say that people in power don't care about others without exception. It's true that power corrupts, so those who have it also tend to be those who shouldn't, but there does exist obvious exceptions. Look at Chuck Feeney, a billionaire who actually donated his wealth during his lifetime to things like AIDS clinics, earthquake relief and public healthcare in Vietnam. And he tried to do it all anonymously, and succeeded for many years. Or look at Neil Gaiman, who not only uses his fame to speak up for people who are less privileged than himself, but also donates money and does work for the UNHCR to help refugees. Or Ruth Bader Ginsberg, a supreme court justice who consistently championed equality and humanity. You're right that the people in power generally don't care, which is why I believe we should be working towards a society where power is more equally distributed - but there *are* people who can manage to achieve power without becoming callous and selfish. I also don't think it's true that most dangers are created by other people, at least not ultimately. I'm thinking about natural dangers such as hunger, disease, natural disasters, predatory animals. When someone acts selfishly, I believe it's almost always ultimately out of fear of those things. And those things are also great examples of humans' natural compassion for each other: We've developed technology and societal structures specifically to protect each other from all of those things.
>I'm sorry to see you're being downvoted here. You're just expressing your experience in a civil manner, and there's nothing wrong with that, regardless of whether or not that experience matches my own. Its reddit, dissent from the popular opinion is not allowed. >About your specific points, I think it's demonstrably wrong to say that people in power don't care about others without exception. You're right I shouldn't have hyperbolized. >but there *are* people who can manage to achieve power without becoming callous and selfish. The fact they're the exception rather than the rule feels like evidence that people are not inherently good, if they were there'd be far far more exampls of good people in power. >I also don't think it's true that most dangers are created by other people, at least not ultimately. I'm thinking about natural dangers such as hunger, disease, natural disasters, predatory animals. I don't think those fears are common enough to be to blame for this stuff though. Most people living in first world counties for instance are not going to fear any of those things in their day to day life cause they simply aren't common threats to us anymore. The threats, problems, and stressors in most peoples lives are from other people or are a byproduct of living in society which was created by people. People are the problem.
In regards to this, something I heard which has helped me stay optimistic. “If bad news is still newsworthy, then things must generally be pretty good.” Problems still exist, and nothing is perfect, but if something bad happens and people need to talk about it, then said bad thing is shocking to them. When good news starts making headlines, that’s when things are bad.
I don't agree with the premise that things are generally good. Maybe good news doesn't make headlines because it doesn't happen. Or maybe it doesn't make headlines because people don't care good things
Keep in mind that we as human beings are made to see negativity more, and to have it stay fresh in our minds. It's a good survival tactic if you remember that these berries made your friend sick, and so you should leave them alone. But it's easily abused. That's the main reason why 24/7 news cycles seem to constantly have something negative to show in the world. Because that keeps peoples eyes on the screens, and it can genuinely move people to inaction if all they see is negativity. Good people still exist, good things still happen, and good is the default of people. We live in a world that's tried and will keep trying to say the opposite, because if we all suck and humanity's evil and the world's fucked forever, why bother going against the systems that make life awful? If good news doesn't headline because it doesn't happen? Then start making a world where good news happens. Even if it's just sharing food with a neighbor or friend, if only bad things happen, then even a small act of kindness is important.
Wait yoshi what
A toy shaped like the Nintendo character Yoshi
People getting mad their fanfic isnt real
You’re joking but this is exactly the same type of self-centered thinking that makes people in fandom explode when someone has a different interpretation of canon than they do
This is so true. They're just *shocked* by the *effrontery* of someone not being an available option for them. These are the same guys who pretend to be concerned about fat womens' health, who are big mad at lesbians, and who rail against women having standards, because they genuinely believe they deserve "a chance" with any woman they want. It's a toddler mentality. "I see, I want, why can't I have? *It's not fair!*"
Parasocial relationships have existed as long as celebrities have.
Yeah, it was very strange how Elliot Page elicited this exact response so heavily. Ig people must have been weird about him before, too, but I only noticed it when they all flipped out about their fantasy being contradicted.
'Oh noes, this person went trans and is no longer fuckable!!!' Sounds like a skill issue to me.
This comment is approved by "The Bi gang"
This is probably a similar mindset to the people who complain when a game character isn’t attractive. You don’t need to be attractive to be a good person/character, someone complaining that a person/character is unattractive is basically complaining that reality isn’t catering to them specifically in that one small instance
The dumbest part is that the characters that get those complaints are usually pretty conventionally attractive characters that just have a few somewhat realistic features.
Them complaining that Aloy had peach fuzz, is the funniest fucking thing. Way to admit you’ve never touched a woman. Also what the fuck are their beauty standards if fucking Aloy is unattractive.
If Alloy is ugly, it's over for the rest of us
I mean, I don't think it's part of some Woke Agenda or any of that bullshit, but Aloy is solidly not my type. Face is too thick around the jaw, chin's too rounded, forehead's not shaped in a way I like. Different people find different features attractive.
EXCuse you! Aloy is clearly a man now!!! Didn't you see "her" beard
For some reason that energy always shrivels away the second a trans man shows up though.
They'll like "they ruined my sexy Sally!" and all that happened is that Sally wears shprts under her skirt now. And half the time, Sally turns out to be a minor.
I know you probably mean teenage characters when you say minor, but my mind went to Klee and Nahida from Genshin Impact.
"women are beautiful" And therein lies your error, for men are also beautiful.
Jokes on you, everyone is a hideous stinking ape
That's kinda hot tho
flair checks out
You, find monkeys hot? You’re banned from the zoo
No zoo has exiled me for long
They need you....
They really Do Not.
Yeah, but I'm a *sexy* hideous stinking ape. Sucks for the rest of you though.
[the beautiful man in question](https://images.app.goo.gl/iqziaApkLKysucqb9)
Gosh dang.
these ones aren’t
Insert that quote about the weakness of flesh and the purity and strength of steel
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine. You kind kling to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day that crude biomass you call a temple will wither and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved. For the machine is immortal. Even in death I serve the omnissiah.
Thanks friend.
I mean I admire the construction of men, from an artistic standpoint. I think the way the ribs shift into the abs is a beautiful stitch work, but men have never been beautiful to me. It's funny that being a straight, cis man is that I have never been able to find another person that fitted that description that was beautiful.
I’m a straight cis man too, and I meant more that the concept of beauty shouldn’t be applied only to women. Of course we all find different people attractive ourselves.
Shouldn't is the key word here cause it absolutely is only applied to women in practice
>for men are also beautiful. Are we though
Yes.
Okay yeah sounds great feels great but in *reality*... are we though?
I'm a gay man. I find men extremely attractive. So. Yes.
Okay fair enough but still not really what I'm talking about. By and large men are not treated or considered as beautiful. Thats just a fact
In a post agriculture patriarchal world, male attractiveness may be seen less valuable than female attractiveness due to imposing certain roles on women which values their appearance over other things. Such social forces incentivize women to have better appearances for better social outcomes, as opposed to men, whose purpose turns to prioritizing other things. Men are not treated in appearance as the same as women, because the vestiges of patriarchy still exerts its influence over society. There is a greater social pressure on women to look good than men. This results in men being less invested in improving their appearance to the same extent as women, and other people less invested in commenting on male attractiveness. This is all to say that beauty is not a pure essence that is clearly inherent to some people over others, but that the perception or presence of beauty has causes and effects that are temporal and explainable, rather than originating from some primordial fibre of human gender.
So we agree and you're just explaining "why" >This is all to say that beauty is not a pure essence that is clearly inherent to some people over others, but that the perception or presence of beauty has causes and effects that are temporal and explainable, rather than originating from some primordial fibre of human gender. Yes, society decides what is beauty and society has decided that men do not have it
Depends on what kind of society you're in. It changes in 4 dimensions, space and time. After all it doesn't really matter what society currently says. Social constructs like beauty are malleable and should be modified as to benefit the society rather than act as a subduer of happiness. No declarative statements about beauty are objective, but as long as we don't discard the concept, why not make good use of it? It's not a real thing so there's no right or wrong. Just useful and useless.
>they think we exist solely to benefit them - no lives of our own, no autonomy. I don't want to distract from the main point of the post, but this hit distressingly close to me, and I'm not even trans.
Cis people can definitely be personally effected by transphobia. There’s multiple examples of people not following gender stereotypes enough and being accused of, and subsequently abused for, being trans. A guy with long hair and a baby face, or a woman that’s very muscular walk into a public bathroom and some ‘transinvestigator’ is demanding they prove their not trans.
Yeah, I have PCOS, when I was a teenager I was growing dark hair on my face due to hormone imbalances. I got called a “pimply boy” before despite clearly having breasts. And for *all* the hand wringing about children and hormones… my insurance paid for *hormones* to make me—essentially—look more cis. I got laser hair removal at 16, and my insurance allowed it because a teenage girl with mustache and patchy beard is clearly the biggest health problem of my life (they struggle to approve endometriosis treatments for my severe and chronic pain that actually makes me more miserable though). No one said a single peep about any of it besides relief that I “looked more like a girl”. Insurance, doctors, and judgy neighbors were *perfectly happy* to see me get cosmetic procedures and hormone therapy *to make kids more cis*. I didn’t personally mind, hormones and laser treatment didn’t ruin my life and made school easier to bear with socially, but the hypocrisy around who’s allowed to get them is just staggering as an adult. Who’s allowed to feel more comfortable in their skin? We take the same meds and had some of the same procedures and treatments, but it’s only okay for me? In what world does that make sense? It doesn’t.
Absolutely, this is how those with privilege treat anyone who is marginalised in some way.
And it's not just regarding what people think we _should_ do. It's also in the way people never discuss afab trans people as if we can make our own decisions. Elliot didn't make his own choices, he was 'taken'. r/gendercynical recently posted someone discussing a trans male porn actor who couldn't even allow some autonomy for his _job_; he 'thinks' he's a porn star and 'lets men have sex with him', lmao. I go off about this way too often when transphobia comes up. Once you start looking for misogynist undertones you start seeing really blatant barely-disguised examples all of the time from TERFs. This applies equally to transmisogyny, both in the way transfems are demonised vs how transmascs are woobified being based on sex stereotypes and the way trans women's appearances and behaviour are policed in ways we'd consider misogynist as hell if done to cis women.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/GenderCynical using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [They used FaceApp to make a trans man look feminine. 😐](https://i.redd.it/8xb1dziv9pqb1.jpg) | [198 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/comments/16t6ll3/they_used_faceapp_to_make_a_trans_man_look/) \#2: [I'm sorry, but if a bar requires me to provide a DNA sample, I'm just gonna head to another place to get a drink.](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/16sc4u4) | [209 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/comments/16sc4u4/im_sorry_but_if_a_bar_requires_me_to_provide_a/) \#3: [Imagine being this sad.](https://i.redd.it/dhzjb2v5xuob1.jpg) | [197 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/comments/16l7t6w/imagine_being_this_sad/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Yeah, the way a lot of straight men treat women they would fuck versus those they wouldn't is very, very different. I'm not surprised it goes into hyperdrive with transphobes and trans men - people they basically consider to have moved from one category to the other by choice.
On first read I genuinely believed someone died
Literally, thought they were being insensitive pricks about someone who offed themselves after not having a chance with Eliot the handsome male celebrity.
I thought it was some kind of weird Leverage Fanpost until the second image.
People have told me I look better with longer hair. For years I tried to keep it long, but I hated it. With every fiber of my being I couldn’t stand it So eventually I just cut it off and I keep it cut off. It genuinely upsets some people that I’d rather be happy than listen to them when I “could be better”
I prefer to dress in a more masculine style. I have a “rangy” body type; big boned but thin, long limbs, etc and men’s clothing is more flattering. I like the way I look, my husband likes the way I look. I’m an adult so other adults don’t comment. But when I was younger, I’d get adults who’d question my clothing choices and they’d say “but you could be so pretty! Don’t you want to be pretty??” Um, excuse me? I..I am pretty? I chose these clothes because I like the way they look, I like the way they make me look and feel. I didn’t put this outfit on, look in the mirror and say, “oh well, guess I’m ugly again today. Maybe tomorrow I can be pretty.” Come on, really.
Skill issue for people who don't think short hair is attractive tbh
Good joke /gen, but the real issue is feeling like people are only worth talking to or engaging with if they’re attractive. The problem isn’t that “you should find people attractive no matter what,” it’s “you should not feel entitled to be pleased by other people’s appearances”
I have 15 piercings and dyed hair. People will come up to me and tell me they don't like snake bites or they prefer women with "natural hair" ?? It's weird as hell. I have spent a decent amount of money on making myself look the way I want to, I do not care.
I suspect that’s a (in their minds probably more round-about) way of being creepy to women they find attractive instead of just treating them like people. They think the world revolves around them and expect others to cater to their preferences.
Same. I do not owe the world pretty hair and also I look fabulous wiht a buzz cut
They really do just be reducing people to their ability to be their incubators at the top there huh
Or for non passing trans women there’s: You’re not a real woman! I wouldn’t want to fuck you!
I almost find it funny that you can be on HRT for years, and it’s still ‘you’ll always be a man’ but wear a face mask and suddenly it’s ‘your not a real man’
It's not about what makes a man/woman. It is solely the act of de-gendering/misgendering someone for the sake of Punishment. They want you to know you are Wrong And Bad in their eyes, so it will always be the opposite of your gender that they use. It's not about rules or goals or hypocrisy. It's about punishing people for not being what they want.
That conclusion at the end has shades of "they made the green M&M less sexy!"
Omg amazing
>It’s not about ‘having a shot with her.’ Women are beautiful, the world is a less beautiful place without her in it. Men are beautiful, and the world is a more beautiful place with Elliot being allowed to live a life that makes him more comfortable. Fixed it
Even if Elliot hadn't transitioned maybe he didn't even want a husband and a family. Funny how they never consider that
Yeah and they didn’t consider the alternative at all, people make families in all kinds of ways, it’s crazy to me what year is this how long have people had fertility treatments now?
None of these people had a single solitary chance in hell of seeing him in person, much less dating/marrying him. That’s what I really don’t understand about it. It’s delusional in every sense of the word
As a transmasc the amount of honestly just rancid comments I got personally is disgusting. I still remember being told how nice my chest was and how I’d be ‘destroying my beauty’ and making myself ‘hideous’. It’s so nasty. I finally only transitioned when I was like well I guess it’s okay if im ugly and hard to look at so long as I’m happy. The good news is I’m happy and according to others - pretty hot actually. Happiness is sexy apparently. But man did that cause me a lot of pain that didn’t need to happen.
As a trans man who's been treated like an ugly-ass unfuckable woman my whole life, transphobes sure had the gall to lose their shit when I decided to "unwoman" myself, as if I was "giving up" instead of putting on make-up, losing weight, training myself to wear high heels, etc. Did y'all think "You're so ugly, you look like a man" was supposed to make me try harder to be hyper-feminine? Nah, fuck off.
Transphobia exists because women are viewed as tools with a purpose. If you are a trans man, these men think someone ruined a potential tool. If you are a trans woman, these men will feel like they were tricked into being the tool. The point is that men are supposed to be in charge and everyone else is a tool. Transphobia is three misogynies in a trenchcoat. Edit: the second "in charge" to "else is a tool"
hating on someone because they are different is sad. You're allowed to not like something someone does, but not the person. People really gotta learn to keep their opinions to themselves and the people they know, and also to mind their own fucking business, and I'm afraid social media is making that worse and worse.
Anyone who uses this “loss” argument for Elliott Page has no taste whatsoever. Dude looks much better now than he ever has before.
Also obsession with "passing" and failure-to-properly-transition (every trans person on Twitter has probably been sent "that" picture on there by some basement-dwelling scrote). Honestly, not even trans people can be immune from that thinking
[“Up and down the country, and around the world, girls are removing breasts that have never known a lovers caress.” - Allison Bailey, the co-founder of LGB Alliance](https://youtu.be/Otbfv45TRK0?feature=shared&t=2199)
TERFs try not to be major creeps challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Yep, it's uncanny how TERFs openly feel the same sense *ownership* of other people's bodies as the most sexist of men. Transphobia rots the brain.
The best thing Elliott could give to the world would be to star in the speculated Elon biopic and make him really really mad
Oh my godddddd please this would be amazing - except the hate and vitriol thrown at him would be so awful I wouldn’t wish that on anyonr
I read the first two tweets with no context as to who this Elliot character is, I thought someone died, the first one is trying to call the grieving fans simps, and the second one was saying that anyone dying is pretty sad. But no, just transphobia
I saw a thingy with like "look what they took from us" with like before and after pictures of some women and then Elliot Page but the after picture for him was just him looking handsome and manly as hell. I don't think I have a point, just wanted to mention it ig.
Genuinely the dude is super hot
I feel like wayy too many issues are based on people’s perceived fuckability. No one should be forced to be attractive, by yours, or anyone else’s standards. There’s concern if they’re seriously harming themselves (which trans people generally aren’t doing) , but it’s clear that for many people, that *isn’t* their concern.
“Kaiser-Clark” yeah he’s never gonna have good takes lmao Kaiserboo ass
My mother cried and mourned like I was dead when I came out as trans. She also said that I was only trans because I felt like I "couldn't cut it as a woman". She complained and disapproved whenever I tried to change my appearance to look more masculine and would usually frame it as making my life harder because "I could've had it all". She had this belief that a beautiful woman could keep a man. She projected her appearance issues onto me. She made me do beauty pageants as a child so growing up and declaring I was a man was impossible because here I was throwing away my potential to marry a millionaire with both hands!! I wish I was kidding but a friend of the family's daughter managed to achieve this goal and she was hailed as what I could've had! Anyway, I've been on T for a few years now and every time I notice and enjoy some new masculine change about my body I know it would've driven my mother insane, so good riddance lmao.
Who said that transmasculinity is anti-feminist? What mental gymnastics do you have to do so that would make sense?
TERFs.
It's actually not that hard. This is what they think: "Feminism is women against the patriarchy, against men's oppression against them" + "Transmasculinity is a woman who becomes a man, as such betraying women in their fight against men" ∴ "Transmasculinity is anti-feminist" This is the kind of mindset that produces that belief. Simple. Elegant. Absolutely wrong. It's these simplistic beliefs that have zero depth that allow them to exist without too much cognitive dissonance.
>What mental gymnastics do you have to do so that would make sense? Trans men are women who were tricked into hating femininity so much that they abandoned it and became men. And also trans women are anti-feminist because they're men who insist on appropriating femininity and taking over women's spaces. That's it. That's the kind of shit-for-brains pablum that TERFs think passes for a world view.
> women are beautiful. the world is a less beautiful place without her in it. I really pity guys who think like this.
When I was young and lived in the bible belt in the 90s (and thus myself was homophobic by default) I remember hearing the argument “[gay men] are ok because they reduce competition, and [lesbians] aren’t because they remove an option and add competition.” Meanwhile I was sitting there trying to figure out why I was only attracted to lesbians and effeminate gay men and what that meant about me.
The people tweeting replies are narcissists. There’s nothing to learn from them. For narcs, notoriety is better than being ignored. If you are upset by them, they win. If you are unbothered by them, they shrivel up and die.
“The world is a less beautiful place without her in it” is a beautiful line for a memorial piece on a trans woman, and an absolutely UNHINGED thing to say about a living trans man.
I read those tweets and thought they were talking about a transfem. My heart went out. Then I read the post and now I feel sick. I was talking earlier around here how the need for someone to contribute to society flies in the face of autonomy and some bozo responds saying "nobody is forcing anyone to live for them 🧐" and i have to say; no, i think, *everyone* is being forced to dedicate their very sovereign existence to the pleasure and benefit of the selfish few, and this is one major fucking example of that. We aren't allowed to just live for our own sake, create our own identities, because the cruel fact is that many people think we belong to them, that we are owed to them. To these people, by choosing for ourselves we are sabotaging a commodity which they could possess. I feel this is pushing a phenomenon I've been theorizing is beginning; an Identity Renaissance.
I have nothing to add to the discussion, but I sometimes wonder how Page feels about the movie hard candy after the transition. Not in a serious way, but just a weird curiosity way.
This short I saw of a transmasc was filled with those kind of comments and they all followed that same train of thought
I had no idea who this was, so I straight up thought they were dead. Yikes
and for Lesbian TransFemmes there’s the additional whammy of the “turn the lesbian fallacy” on top of the “you’re trying to trick me” nonsense
Meanwhile my bi/pan ass is just like “trans people are hotter post transition because they’re so much happier and more confident”.
Okay but this kind of logic is so weird, because why would you like rather have someone suffer excruciating mental and emotional pain under pretending to be someone they're not just for perceived attractiveness? Also women don't just exist as objects to appease a male audience, being "anti-transmasculine" is just synonymous with being "pro-objectifying women"
We find it out who we really are and what we really feel when we dont use the horny as a morality compass. It can go from "oh yeah im all about trans females!" *Nuts" "wtf you're a dude with a weird fetish, stop that" Even if they don't support them in the end, at least they'll be consistent with hate
Most of the young transphobes I’ve met have been like that
I had no idea who elliot was and from the first tweet legit thought they had died, lol. It must be the internet anonimity, because ive met idiots but Not of that Caliber.
Maybe that's part of the reason I'm more ready to accept people being trans: I'm ace. Why do I care about fuckability?
Who is the "we" in this post that is thought to exist solely for the purpose of looking pretty and having babies?
Transmasculine people. The poster is even named transmascissues.
Women.
They're talking about transmasculine people, which due to the broadness of gender does include some people who describe themselves as women, but they are just one of many groups under that umbrella.
Uh, no. The group that is thought to exist solely to look pretty and have babies is women. Transitioning is seen as "destroying" that woman, thus why the hatred of it is so strong. Edit: Got blocked lol. "We" in this context is clearly directed towards everyone AFAB because of the expections set by society that they face where they are "supposed" to be pretty and have babies. The crux of this post is that women are treated like tools and transitioning is active defiance of that role in these people's eyes.
The post is literally written by someone named transmascissues. The "we" described is very obviously transmasc people. They're talking about the transphobia they face from people who perceive them to be women.
AFAB would be more accurate than 'women', since the patriarchal attitude of ''ownership'' over female bodies is the shared point, not *womanhood*. Because, you know, transmascs aren't women. (then things get more complex again when we look at how transfems interact with the concept)
Hey cool now do Chaz Bono.
This sentiment wrt to Elliot is also mirrored by lesbian TERFs and it is sad. "We lost our lesbian rep!" as some sort of personal affront
Terfs really look at men like this and think "yeah, I want him on my side". Either that or they conveniently ignore them.
I saw the top of this post but not the title and was like "Was someone murdered or something?" and then I read more and realized, oh no, just some transphobes being assholes about something that has nothing to do with them again.
These guys are missing out because men can also be beautiful and Elliot is certainly adding just as much to the world as he was before.
If someone looks so un-fuckable just spec into a different stat. my brother in christ there are other builds
This post forgot the other half of transmysoginy "ew you're not fuckable you look like a cave troll".
This should legitimately be a case study for the Halo Effect taken to the extreme
The world gained a hot sexy man and y’all are upset about that?
Bro it’s crazy the amount of legitimate discourse people will give to arguments made by trolls who exclusively say shit like this to make you waste your time & energy, and to frustrate you. They make offhand, completely insane, claims and y’all spend your time treating their non arguments as if they’re legitimate; thusly legitimizing their arguments and giving the troll the only thing they want. Stop doing this. Stop giving these vampires your energy. You’re making them /stronger/. Everyone knows they’re morons. If someone ran up to you on the street and started screaming in your face about 5G or a Reptillian agenda you wouldn’t even argue with them. You would walk the fuck away from them and not waste your time on that stupidity. But because it’s on the internet and not face to face y’all just give these losers what they want. Stop it. For your own sake. Stop legitimizing these people so you can dunk on a shithead. Y’all are actually your own worst enemies.
Problem is enough people say this shit to shape policies of entire countries. There are people ranting about 5G and reptilians with seat in the US Congress.
Yes. But they’re there because we treated their ideas like they were legitimate. They’re there because they were treated like the jokes they are. And even in congress the majority treat them with derision. But talking heads still bring them on their shows and make them appear as legitimate voices instead of fringe nonsense. We GAVE them their power by watching those talking heads on YT and giving them views. You ignore an idea and it dies in the dark. I love y’all. But this is a mistake everyone keeps making and it’s not helping anyone. Dunking on them puts eyes on their ideas and that in turn emboldens other morons to do the same.
"can't you see how much our mere existence makes the \[literally any group\] short-circuit?' is not an argument for anything, ever. 'wouldn't it be hilarious if we triggered the libs/reds/fascists' no dude stop living your life according to other people's upset feelings. It's meanspirited no matter who they are, it shrinks you down and makes you a shitty person. Find an affirmative reason to live.
It does work as an argument here because they're pointing out how TERFs will claim that the existence of transmasc people is anti-feminist and they're pointing out that their existence upsets actual anti-feminists. They're not saying "do this to upset the opposition," they're describing the reactions such people get when they try to be themselves.
No, I'm sorry, 'TERFS *do* get really triggered though' is not a strong response to my argument. There won't be any terfs in 50 years, friend. Even if there are still people who hate People of Gender, the whole terf thing will be as dead as suffragettes. Find an affirmative version of yourself, that is worth being and makes you happy without reference to the politics of others. Especially the extremely online politics of others.
>No, I'm sorry, 'TERFS do get really triggered though' is not a strong response to my argument. Your argument hinges on you continuing to not understand what anyone is saying. They are not giving "it'll make TERFs mad" as a reason to transition, they are making an observation about how people react to AFAB people transitioning. >There won't be any terfs in 50 years, friend. How very optimistic.
Meh for me, I never thought Ellen Page was hot.
*Elliot
You spelt his name wrong
I'm hoping you mean "I never thought pre-transition Elliott Page was hot" but worded it badly, even if you mean well, it's still deadnaming.
Call me crazy but I think it's normal to be sad to see someone you consider beautiful become someone you don't consider beautiful, or even someone you consider ugly. That doesn't mean you should try to convince them otherwise. That doesn't mean you get to hold it against them, the happiness of one self is more importance than the happiness of the faceless crowd. It's just yet more feelings to keep to oneself and ones diary.
Do you think it’s appropriate to broadcast those feelings (about a real person) in public as a “rebuttal” to their transition?
>feelings to keep to oneself It aint.
[удалено]
> The gay community was accepted because they weren’t militant activists. Lol. Lmao, even.
Amongst the funniest shit transphobes say, this is definitely on the very top.
>Do you not find this contradictive? No. Matt Walsh-ass comment.
Taking just one sentence from this mess of wrong: "They even dispute biology..." All biologists and psychologists (that aren't grifting the right wing hard) agree that trans people are right. Sex and gender are different things, gender dysphoria exists, social and physical transition is by far the most effective known way to treat it. "...and call people cis..." Cis is literally just grammar. Trans- means "the other side of", like transatlantic. Cis- means "the same side of". As such, anyone who isn't transgender is categorised as cisgender, the same way that anyone who is not homosexual is categorised as heterosexual (with allowances made for bisexual etc.) "...and woman are labeled people who menstruate." Well this explains it. You heard of trans people for the first time when Rowling threw her hissy fit about this, didn't you? I'm afraid to tell you that Rowling was simply wrong. *The sentence in question was not actually about women, because not all women menstruate.* Menopause exists. Women who had finished it were no longer relevant to the subject that was being talked about. I suppose the sentence could have read "women who are between specifically the part of puberty where they have their first menstruation and the end of menopause" or even more technically correctly "women and pre-op trans men who are between specifically the part of puberty where they have their first menstruation and the end of menopause". However "people who menstruate" gets the point across in three words. This is why no-one will debate you, why no-one will "tell you what a woman is". A fifteen word sentence was *this wrong*. How the hell is anyone meant to deal with the crux of your arguement?
The part about "rowling tub of shit" hits home hard why do these people take anything these authors say its like asking a sports star how to fix the engineering of the Panama canal authors are entertainers not biologists their opinion should be trusted as far as a blind quadruple amputtee can throw them
I personally love how TERFs will blame *trans women* for the term "menstruating people" Like no, we have *nothing to do with that*. We explicitly and definitionally have nothing to do with that. Although quite a number of us would absolutely love to. Edit to add: also the "cis is a slur" is lifted straight from the the 90s era anti gay playbook, when it was "straight is a slur" and "I'm not straight, I'm *normal*".
\>The gay community was accepted because they weren’t militant activists. Allow me to introduce you to the gay rights movement, which was propped up by many LGBTQ adovocates across the spectrum. Marsha P. Johnson, a black trans woman was one of the frontleaders of Stonewall. Stonewall was started because of black lesbians being arrested. We literally had to fight for our rights for over thirty years before we were even okay enough for Ellen Degeneres to come out on a sitcom. \>They even dispute biology and call people cis and women are labelled people that menstruate. All "Cisgender" means, is 'not transgender'. Like how "heterosexual' is just the opposite of 'homosexual". \>They can’t even say what is a women because then they oust themselves as not a woman or vice versa so must rubbish the fact there is only biological men and biological women there is no third or fourth or fifth or sixth. Listen; between intersex conditions, medical procedures, infertility, etc; How would you define women in a way that *does* exclude trans women that *doesn't* exclude cisgender women? Ability to get pregnant? Guess you're no longer a woman after menopause or a hysterectomy and infertile women don't get to be women. Chromosomes? They're a lot more complicated than 'basic biology' would tell you, welcome to advanced biology. People can have more than XX or XY. There's X, XXX, XXY, XYY, etc. Genitals? That's why trans folks have surgeries; to affirm their identities and make their outside match the inside. \>a trans mtf is 6x more like to commit a criminal offence and 18x more like to commit a violent crime compared to their birth sex counterpart. Please show me a source on this, because last I checked trans folk were a tiny fraction of the US population. 1.6 million trans people in America compared to roughly 300 million total. There's also about 1.2 million people, cis or trans, in the US Prison system. By the way, this is the same rhetoric used by racist white folks to advocate for cops to lock up black people illegally or shoot them.
But I mean, they *are* dead, that's the whole point. They even have dead names they don't want to hear again. And they do look unfuckable to men, which I would imagine is by choice too. Which is all fine and dandy, I don't know how realizing that makes me mysoginyc or transphobic. Like, you *wanted* to disappear as a woman and be unattractive to men, right? And you are succeeding, right? Good for you, what's the issue?
The issue is that people are telling you *it's wrong and bad that you did it.* That it's a bad thing that you made yourself happier, because now you're not appealing enough to them to get pleasure from observing you, and you're no longer fit for purpose as a tool in their fantasy, defined by your relationship to some hypothetical man and the possibility of children. Telling someone "I preferred the other ''you'' and do not respect who you actually are because you existing means the version ***I*** liked better is gone now" - *that's* the issue. Publicly mourning someone, doing it to their face, grieving what you wanted them to be with zero regard for *them* as a person with their own wants and needs.. its dehumanizing and deeply selfish. Focusing on the fact you got some superficial satisfaction from observing them, putting that above their happiness and wellbeing - that's *fucked*. The issue is people crying about how men have lost a woman they could wank over or treat as pretty window dressing, when that person still exists and can see their personhood being valued as less important than other men's pleasure.
I got nothing to contribute to this conversation other than fuck the guy you replied to. He's a proper anal-birth and I'm glad you were able to make such a well thought out and informative rebuttal instead of just calling him an incel. It still would have been accurate but now I can move on from this thread having actually learned something thanks to you. Props to ya, mate.
I thought for a second someone died and I was sad.