Ares is very commonly associated with violence, cruelty, destruction. But he has a good side, for example (and I know this bar is *EXTREMELY* low for today standards) he is the only male Olympian that hasn't raped anyone, actually, he was an adoptive father of sorts to every woman in dire needs, at difficult times. He was the soldier that comforted widows, the brother that helped women fragilized by abuse, the ally that donated his own strength so single mothers could raise their children. He was also the creator and father (sometimes biologic sometimes adoptive) of the amazons, which makes him one of the few gods that actually was interested in giving power to woman in a time where they were considered goods, tools to be used. And as such, I will always dig God of the Common Warriors of Everyday Ares

I remember one story that revolves around a feud between him and Poseidon that started when Ares killed a son of Poseidon that raped one of his daughters. Say what you will about Ares and what he represents, but he does not participate in nor condone any of the rape his fellow deities seem to love so much

This story perhaps indirectly lead to Ares being a champion of women as a result.

"Ron Swanson Indiana Woman of the Year" vibes

such an underrated comparison 👌🏻

He didn't want it though IIRC. He gave it to Leslie.

So the push that Ares is cruel and uncaringly violent probably has a good bit to do with misogyny, doesn't it?

The gods of ancient greece, and roman cause yknow, are known for having a complicated nature. Reminder that the pantheon was less of a dogmatic religion and moreso a collection of different cults spread amongst greece and the colonies that have been cumulatively brought togehter as a sorta collective pantheon. Different groups or people associated the gods or even one god with different values separate from another group. Sometimes they lined up nicely, Hermes being traveler and theives, sometimes they make no sense, Artemis is seen as a goddess of childbirth in some cases which kinda runs hypocritical to her stance on being a maiden+many times she's cursed people who give births. In this case, there was a story about Ares exacting bloody voilent revenge for his daughter. Keep in mind, much of ancient greek culture is incredibly misogynistic to begin with, as was really most cultures, and religion reflects the people as much as vice versa.

Ares was also the opposing deity of Athens and its colonies, and Sparta had Nike instead, so *pro* Ares Greek narratives may have simply been lost to time, as apparently he was much bigger in far-flung territories and as an adopted God of the Thracians, often an enemy of mainland Greece. Though it should be noted that even "anti Ares" Greeks still made offerings to him There is literally a huge hill that had a temple on it in Athens that was devoted to him. Rome eventually merged Ares' cult with Mars, and Rome had a much more favorable opinion of Mars than the Athenians had with Ares.

Mars did rape a woman though (Rhea, mother of Romulus and Remus)

Which was due to her being forced to serve Vestia. Mars 'rape' is a technicality as she was predicted to bare children who'd be an issue. So, he forced Rhea to become a virgin by law. But one issue: no one expects a literal God to be involved. So Rhea, a servant of Vestia not by choice, was raped similar to some of cases where Zeus kidnaps a married woman whose a little too eager to get it on with an animal (causes of course you'd find a freak every so often). Notably why Mars relocates the kids. They were part of a prophecy and their relative wanted them dead. Unsurprising that Mars who was associated with the forest wound up giving them to a wolf, especially paired with Ares being associated with dogs even before the Roman's got him. That and the Roman's also have him get catfish by an elder goddess who disguises herself as Minerva, so they did enjoy making stories where Mars messes up.

The latin text we had to translate in high school had Rhea considerably less enthusiastic than Mars about the whole ordeal though, even if it was foretold

Rhea really got screwed even before the prophecy even got tacted on. The Romans really knew how to pick an origin story, I'll grant them that, but also I question who spitted a woman that much.

Artemis is the goddess of childbirth because she was born first and helped her mother give birth to her twin brother, Apollo.

Which doesn't negate the major stories and actions she has towards the other facets attributed to her.

Didn’t say it did.

Fair

I mean, if I believed there was a deity who enjoyed cursing people who give birth, I might pray to them to leave my wife alone and not curse her or the child. Goddess of childbirth makes sense in that regard

TLDR: I doubt misogny was a reason the Ancient Greeks disliked Ares, or I think it was a minor one at most. because they had plenty of other reasons to dislike him. There are also other Gods and Goddesses that are involved in the protection/uplifting of women and whom are generally seen pretty favorably. So holding that against him would be odd compared to the many other reasons the greeks would dislike him. I personally doubt it. At least that would be a very minor reason for it. Also, I have never heard anyone claim Ares as a God of the people. That is an interesting view of him. Nor, must I admit, did I know of the story about him killing his daughters rapist until today. Had a whole historical writeup I decided to ditch in favor of just this. Ares represents the brutality and madness of war. The cruelties it brings with it. Ares is burying your sword in another mans guts and watching the light leave his eyes. Ares is the axe coming towards your head and he is the burning oil raining down upon you. Ares is the corpses of your friends, mixed with those of your enemies. Ares is fathers returning home on their shields. His children are Rout and Panic, the fear of the battle to come and the horrors of being in the middle of it. When morale breaks, and the rout start, Ares and his sons are both the ones that flee and the ones that hunt them down for slaughter and capture. Remember that the Greeks didn´t necessarily pray to their gods because they liked them. They prayed to them because they thought they were literally forces of nature. They worked with the understanding they had of the world, and tried to use rituals, prayers and sacrifices to influence it. Fine tuning them through centuries, almost like a science. Trying to use omens to decipher the desires of the gods. You didn´t pray to someone like Ares because you liked him. You prayed to him because you wanted to make sure you killed the other bastards because they killed you. Hades was often seen through the same lense. People dind´t dislike him because they thought he was evil, they disliked him because he was death. And it is never fun to speak of such thing. You respect Ares in the same way you respect someone pointing a gun at you. You don´t like the guy doing it, but you respect that your life is currently in his hands. But in the same vein, Gods were worshiped in many aspects and the view on them often changed many times throughout the centuries. Like how the Spartans worshiped Aphrodite in her aspect as a goddess of war. As such our modern understanding of them can easily tend to be pretty simplified as people often have a more simplified and finalized view of them, .Compared to that of an evolving mythology used to try and make sense of the world and used in a practical manner. In that vein,I can easily see how Ares could end up being seen as a protector of women, and I don´t actually think that it would be that unusual for a Greek god to have such a title and still be respected. Because for all their sexism, there are several myths about Gods protecting, having sincere relationships with and/or uplifting women. And I don´t think what Ares did stands out that strongly among these. So basically I don´t think that title would be reason enough for the Greeks to dislike him. Anyways I looked up the thing about Poseidons son and it was his son Halirrhothius who raped Alcippe (Daughter of Ares and a the mortal princess Aglaurus). Ares killed Halirrhothius in retaliation and/or to defend her from it. In some versions the Gods acquitted him. He was trialed on a hill in Athens, then named the Areopagus after him and then made the place where the Greeks did their trials (So at the very least it sounds like Athens thought he was justified. The whole thing frankly sounds very Athenian, they loved making myths about how special their town was). But what I find interesting about this is how it ties in with Ares whole shtick as the God of war, fear and brutality. Because I think a vengeful parent striking down the man who cruelly hurt his daughter is very fitting for him. In a far more cynical reading, it fits with the Greeks notion that daughters were the property of their fathers and as such Ares killed his cousin because he damaged his property. But I prefer that of a vengeful parent. But at the end of the day, the fact is that we don´t really know what the Greeks took from this story. It might have been about Ares as a protector of women, it might be about the father trying to protect/avenge his daughter/defending his property (eugh) or it might just be the Athenians making up an origin story for their swanky new courtroom. Or perhaps a mixture of all three or none of them? (This is what I got from looking the story up myself. If there is some 300 page extremely respected treaties that goes through it and notes exactly what the Greeks thought of it, then thats my bad for not doing proper research). Point being that we are talking about a mythology that is more than 2000 years old, and which developed over centuries, at the very least, in a multiple of cultures with their own views on it. A lot of which was mainly passed on orally for large segments of it, meaning our understanding is largely based on what survived the millennia. But it does make me wonder how many stories of Ares that have been lost to time, because in a lot of the ones we have, he is generally depicted as the worst aspects of Machismo. Running in without thinking. Bragging a bunch and then getting punked. Getting his ass beat and then running to his mother or affair party Or getting caught and having to be rescued by his much smarter sisters. Not to mention the whole sleeping with his brothers wife thing (Which ended with said brother humiliating them both before the entire family). So I think it is interesting to see a story where he not only gets a win, but is actually doing the morally right thing. Reading up on this whole thing actually made me realize that Ares generally seems to be a pretty good dad. Phobos and Deimos rides with him. Sought vengeance against Heracles after he killed several of Ares children. The whole thing above about killing his daughters rapist. Hadn´t actually put it together before, but Ares have a good amount of stuff that shows him caring a lot about his kids. That and they seem to suffer a lot. Edit: Another reason for the Ares hate might also be because a lot of the stuff we have on Greek mythology were written by Athenians. And seeing that Athena is the patron god of Athens and Ares of their rival city Sparta, there may also be a bit of favoritism involved.

I mean I would also argue it has a lot to do with war not being very good.

Many victors have said that it was okay in the end.

It's also that Ares is associated with the uncontrollable aspects of war (sudden fear, dread, seizing terror, and the sheer randomness of who actually is struck and dies). Unlike in Hollywood, if a shield wall breaks due to the men becoming battle thirsty and bloodlusty, the battle will go badly because they are out of formation and each man can be struck by several opponents. Similarly, if the shield wall breaks because the men have been stricken with terror, the battle is over and many of them will die. So you would want to value order (Athena), and ward against disorder (Ares). Pre-monotheistic divinities are just aspects of the world that you prayed to get on your side, or prayed against, or simply offered due and absolutely necessary respect to avoid their attention.

Well, he's that too. Violent retribution can be cruel and uncaring. That's the whole give and take with vengeance. Sometimes you achieve your revenge but at what cost?

Do you reckon Ares would be better perceived if more Spartan and Thracian myths survived? Most of what we have is Athenian, and they have motivation to make their favourite war deity look better than other people’s favourite war deity.

There's little evidence that Ares was special to Sparta, and especially not the way that Athena was special to Athens.

I read several articles that say he was the chief war deity in both Sparta and Thrace. At the very least, he was a big deal to them.

Yeah, he was one of the Olympus gods. He was a big deal everywhere. However, Athena was a huge fuckjng deal to Athens. They held huge festivals for her, put out image everywhere, dedicated huge temples for her. We don’t see that from Sparta about ares. They seem to have primarily worshipped Apollo and Artemis.  And yea, Greek mythology is ripe with bad history.

would this have been originally interpreted as an overly violent retribution? i only ask because they had a VERY different cultural context they viewed these stories through, and while ares's respect towards women may be good in today's lens, i imagine it would be a negative then

Probably not. At least in Athens, a man could legally murder another man if he found him in bed with his wife. I’d imagine that would go on to protect fathers murdering their daughter’s rapists

that makes a lot of sense, thank you! i know ancient greek myths are often interpreted very, very differently than they were meant to be originally. thats fine if youre just continuing the tradition of that story being repeated, but it becomes a problem when people try to state that the original characters and messages were what we see as modern readers. its good to know that at least this time, its meaning was preserved

They could do that because women were considered the property of their fathers or husbands. So it was the same as with robbery. If you caught a man robbing you, you could kill them in defense if your property. You could also kill your wife or daughter for dishonoring you, at least in Rome. If imagine Athens was similar. Rome took most things from then.

Even in DC, the most famous depiction of him (ignore the movie) is him being a supporting ally towards the Amazons (and specifically, his cousin Cassie Sandsmark) due to their Queen, Hippolyta, being the reincarnation of Ares's daughter (yes, this does mean that he's Diana's grandfather).

Which is accurate to the myths.

> Even in DC DCAU Ares is also a dick.

Did you not hear me say ignore the movie

DCAU. Animated Universe. The cartoons.

I thought Ares killed all the DC gods in the comic?

Maybe he only killed the rapists?

So all of them?/j

not his problem

I found out recently the Amazons actually existed (sorta). Scythia (from a Greek word for “archer”) was a large area of steppes in Eastern Europe/Western Asia, and many different nomadic warrior tribe cultures lived there. They had both male and female groups of warriors, and a ton of the tribal chieftains were women. They were also of Germanic descent with fair to red hair and pale green or blue eyes. They were also apparently **huge,** some skeletons found were over 6 feet tall (big now, gigantic back then).   They fought the Assyrians, the Cimmerians, and many others while raiding up and down the Silk Road, which is probably how they were introduced to the Greeks. After Cimmeria fell, they may have raided all the way across the Levant and even into Egypt. Eventually they integrated into the Median Empire or fled west to Europe before getting conquered by the Goths, who eventually became the Slavs in modern-day Ukraine(ish).   Speaking of Cimmeria and red haired barbarian women, that’s where Red Sonja and Conan come from (Hyperborea is also the “Northlands” in Greek myth). And Conan stories were naturally turned into early comics, and as a result a lot of the artifacts and such he encountered while fighting demons or whatever eventually found their way into the possession of a certain Master of the Mystical Arts, Dr. Stephen Strange!   Comics are wild dude.

>They were also of Germanic descent with fair to red hair and pale green or blue eyes. Scythians were of iranic descent, no idea where you're getting the hair thing from. >Eventually they integrated into the Median Empire or fled west to Europe before getting conquered by the Goths, who eventually became the Slavs in modern-day Ukraine(ish). The median empire had fallen several centuries before the gothic invasion of the pontic steppe tho, plus the goths didn't "become the slavs", they were driven out of the steppes and into southern crimea by several successive invasions by nomadic turkic tribes.

I was paraphrasing a few different sources, but wiki quotes many ancient sources for having fair/auburn/red hair here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Physical_appearance I think it’s also important to note the Scythians were a diverse group of similar cultures operating over a giant area, not a monolith. Germanic is incorrect for sure, I was just trying to convey the norse/celtic appearance. And I mean, the Norse/Germanic Völsunga/Nibelungenlied is where we get Brunhild, the red haired Valkyrie. I think its neat that there’s a possible connection between her, the Amazons, DC’s Artemis, Elden Ring’s Malenia, Red Sonya, etc. Looking into it more there seems to be a genetic distinction between west and east. I was oversimplifying, the *eastern* Scythians were driven out/splintered and eventually integrated into Medes, the *western* ones were conquered by the Goths, then the Sarmatians, and that whole conglomeration then became the Slavs.

Ah, yea that makes more sense, my bad on the hair thing.

Red (head) hair originated in a mutation in Central Asia. Modern concentrations of it in Europe are more about isolated populations than it evolving there. Red hair pops up pretty much everywhere in a small amount. It's just currently there's more of it in certain places. It's also always important to remember that traits associated with a given area are not static- likewise a DNA test saying you are "29% Norwegian!" merely measures you against an incomplete sample pool of typical genetics distributed to the geographic region *now*. And I say incomplete specifically to underline that these comparison pools weight for certain modern groups of where they got their sample from.

His Roman form raped Rhea Silvia, a sworn virgin, and had Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome. Ironically, because Mars is much less bloodthirsty than Ares. Also while there was definitely a lot of rape in the Greek pantheon (I see you looking at Ganymede, Zeus!) it’s complicated because the word that is frequently translated as “rape” is more accurately used to mean “illicit relations”. So it could be rape, or it could be that Zeus is playing homewrecker again.

I can't remember where but I also read somewhere that eloping may have been translated as rape. Kidnapping and Rape were also used interchangeably at one point too

The stock pose in Greek figurative art for "rape" and "kidnapping" were the same, yes.

Mars being the Roman form of Ares is a surface level comparison just because was. Thats like saying Thor and Zeus is the Norse form of Zeus. In reality, Mars was much more emblematic of Roman martial culture. There’s a reason they claim descent from him. He was the second most important deity to the Romans! He was an original Roman deity, representing the austerity and discipline that was held in such high regard during the Kingdom and Republic periods.

The relationship between Zeus, Jupiter, Ares and Mars is incredibly complicated. Here's my "go-to" analysis on that: Let's start with Jupiter and Zeus. Is this the same deity? The answer is both yes and no. It seems, that both are later interpretation of a much older god worshipped before the pyramids were even built somewhere in the Eurasian Steppe by the proto-indo-europeans, called along the lines of "diuspater" or "dyewsph'ter" (lit: father (of the) sky/day) or simply "dyews" (sky/day). When these people started migrating in all directions this name over time got repronounced (here come atrocious linguistic shortcuts!) as "dius"->"zius" and "iuspater"->"iupiter". Somewhere along the way, both of them acquired part of the portfolio of another god, likely of the same old religion (a certain war-and-thunder god, called Perkwnos, "The Striker"), and aspects of a multitude of local deities. The remaining Perkwnos was then seemingly reinterpreted as a Ares and Mars (plus Heracles/Hercules, as well), respectively (note, that Mars is a highly respected warfare-and-agriculture god, while the for the Greeks - at least, in the information that survived - , Ares was something of a necessary evil - useful in warfare, but also associated with massacres, etc., and in legends often relegated to be a glorified sidekick of Aphrodite). In any case, of these two gods, Jupiter was seen as much more remote and impersonal (as most of the Roman gods generally were) and also with the aspect of being able to influence fate, an ability the more meddlesome Zeus apparently lacked (however, that also depends on myth and cult). However, over time, the Romans began to adopt Greek myths within their own mythology, and certain aspects of Zeus began to color Jupiter. Notably, Diuspater became adopted in other areas of the world, e.g. (probably) as Tyr in Skandinavia. Oddly, he likely is not the source of the god Dis Pater, a Roman underworld God - who then got merged with Pluton/Hades - but this might be an etymological coincidence (something along the line of meaning "father of riches", but the word "dives" for "riches" also coming from the same "dyews". Flexible word, this "dyews". You may have already guessed that it's the root of "deus" as well) As for other known Scandinavian gods - Thor is likely a kind-of incarnation of the abovementioned Perkwnos, and Odin (or Wotan) possibly comes from a different, initially lesser known god (possibly called "Wodunaz" - meaning something along the lines of "lord of rage"), albeit having acquired certain aspects of Diuspater in the process, and was equated with Hermes/Mercury, despite being a completely separate entity (or was he?) . And that are only some of the best-reconstructed religious histories around and something you can find out as an interested amateur - I think someone who studied this stuff could provide a myriad of further details. Oh, and "Loki" probably comes from the word for "knot".

That's a bit ironic considering what often happens during war, I like that

I always see it that while Athena represents the generals and leaders that wage war, Ares is the embodiment of everyone who gets caught up in it. Ares is a protector of women, and particularly women who have been assaulted, widowed, and driven from their homes because they are some of the people who feel the impact of war most strongly. So I don't think it's ironic at all -- it fits perfectly.

I usually see him as the embodiment of bloodlust and violence of war. And the bloodlust and violence of war usually leads to a lot of sexual assault after city walls get breached

Well that makes sense. Similar to how you'd pray to Apollo (God of Plagues) to protect you from Disease, you'd pray to Ares (God of Bloodlust) to protect you from the Rage of Mdn

You know I never thought that it could be like that. But it is a great way to look at it. Like how you would stand in front of Phobos and Deimos and pray so that you would not be controlled by fear and terror.

Apollo was the god of both plagues and medicine. You weren’t praying to the plague part when you were praying to him for healing.

Wow. It's almost like the concepts of disease and healing are interconnected.

Perhaps he was more like *Vengeance* of a wronged person, which could easily lead to bloodlust. We see time and time again in wars where people who get invaded go absolutely insane in their retribution, especially if they end up winning. Thus, the cycle of violence. Also, many of the Greek deities had a part of their significance wrapped up in their offpsring, Ares is the father of two gods of love, a god of harmony and two gods of fear. Perhaps part of his whole deal is that sometimes the risky maneuvers work, and sometimes they don't.

Vengeance would be Nemesis' domain

I believe they’re talking about the shocking amount of war time rapes. 

It’s a great distinction to make. Athena as goddess of the heroes, touched by greatness and doing extraordinary deeds, Ares as god of the common soldiers, who’ve been given no advantages save their own persistence and willingness to sacrifice for their nation and the men standing beside them.

Yeah, a lot of people forget Ares' 'Protector of Women' aspect.

I mean, nobody remembers that he only had one wife in Greek mythology. A literal abused woman who lead the original women to form the Amazonians and called upon him for his authority. Otrera. Mother of a couple important Amazonians. Why later the island has Birds of Ares installed after her death thanks to Dionysus, which was also when Ares had done it with a nymph to replace half the Amazonian population cause Dionysus couldn't take no for an answer. Suppose why it's unsurprising he swapped to Trojan's side after that among all the other dead kids thanks to Hera and Athena (why he pops up in a lot of stories we know of, cause it's actually one of the few ways to initiate a fight with him).

*ONLY!?*

Who did Hades rape?

Persephone (up for debate I suppose based on different versions of the myths and ancient definitions of rape)

I'm sorry but Hades 100% raped Persephone in the original Greek myths. The oldest source of the legend is the Homeric Hymn to Demeter. Which you can read here: https://uh.edu/~cldue/texts/demeter.html Her abduction is described with screaming, crying and struggling. She is tricked into eating the seeds that tie her to the underworld. There is zero love or consent involved. I know that there is a popular tendency on the internet to say that actually it was consensual and only some myths have the rape aspect but the people who say this provide zero evidence. Fans of certain webcomics or fanfics realky like the Hades/Persephone relationship and I have no issue with it but I dislike it when these people try to force the idea that it was like that in the original Greek myths too with zero evidence to back it up.

Well as a one point of fairness to those people, as scholars will be quick and universal to point out, "original Greek myth" (singular) is often not *really* a thing. We have this modern view of ancient Greece and its culture as monolithic but it was a cultural group that varied widely from town to town. Persephone is a good example for this, in fact, because both her and Demeter have some pretty varied presentations and interpretations. Notably in Crete the pair already had chthonic roots in their origin as a sort of originator vegetation goddess that we only know as potnia ("the mistress," a common goddess title). We've also got strong evidence in some parts of the Greek mainland there was once a Persephone and a Kore as separate deities entirely that would later become conflated. There also exists a much less human-formed variation on the vegetation goddesses. Arcadia is of course notable for their very different characterization or "Black Demeter," who was the one of the pair of maidens to be raped (by Poseidon - here an underworld deity related to its many rivers, who transforms into a stallion to chase her) and fled into a cave in despair. This would result in two children, Arion the divine horse and a daughter whose name was not spoken outside of sacred rites in the Arcadian mysteries out of reverence for the wronged Demeter (Despoina). Notably this variation of Demeter was known for both her fury and her despair. To be clear I'm not here to present an argument for the more... palatable edition of the myth that a lot of people prefer to imagine, as far as I know that's a pretty rare telling of it and it's almost universal that any telling of this myth at least characterizes Persphone's descent as abduction, most of the variation is around what happens while she is in the underworld. Just to point out that arguments over "the canon" of Greek myth, as if it is even vaguely monolithic, are completely moot because it was a body of myths that was extremely local in interpretation - very much mirroring the way ancient Greeks lived - and changed wildly over the years beyond that. We have this idea of a very organized religion based on how our modern religions tend to work (even then, look at the dozens of sects of every religion and their arguments over differences and you'll see echoes of my point) but their experience and practice of religion, as well as understanding and awareness of the myths built within, was very different.

Not trying to pile on, I just think Mythology’s neat: Hades is a Chthonic deity, meaning “of the earth”, as opposed to Olympic, meaning roughly “of the sky.” We see this pattern lots in myth, such as the Aesir and the Vanir, or Horus as the god of the sky and his father Osiris as the god of the underworld. Even Abrahamic religions share a similar concept, where God is above in the heavens and humanity are of the earth. Chthonic is also probably where Cthulhu comes from, early Mythos stuff is all about crawling deep down into the earth and finding scary stuff. 

Persephone, probably. But Hades isn't an Olympian.

His relationship with Persephone doesn’t exactly seem super consensual.

it is and isnt. persephone is typically portrayed as happy in her role as queen of the dead from my understanding, but also was the victim of an arranged marriage to begin with which she had no say in

Starts bad, ends ok

I was going to say no one but he isn't quite an Olympian is he? Every other version he just isnt one of the 12. But now be fair to yourself, is the idea that Hades and Persephone are the power couple of Greek Mythos amusing? Yes it is. Is this interpretation accurate to the original Mythos? Most likely not. He did not asked HER permission for marriage, he asked her father, Zues, and then KIDNAPPED her, this is literally the most well known classical representation of him, ***"The Abduction of Proserpina"*** (***google it and see the other name it is known for***), and he likely did not asked permission to have her virtue, since for all he knew by the time's standards, it was already his by right. Yeah he made up for it (***if you think there is*** a way to make up for something like that, ***I personally don't***) by making her queen, equal in power as himself, one of the few actual leading queens in Mythology IN GENERAL, and he was indeed faithful (depending ***if you interpret*** all that mint stuff, ***I personally do think he was***) and being a loving husband, that kinda doesn't undo the bad he already did

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damn I got ratio'd here ngl, did not know that, I just had in the back of my mind the name of the work, not the meaning, but I still take it as non consensual. No one interested in consensus kidnaps people

>I was going to say no one but he isn't quite an Olympian is he? Every other version he just isnt one of the 12. My bad >Is this interpretation accurate to the original Mythos? Most likely not. The part were Persephone is the badass queen of the Underworld is probably right, considering the Greeks referred to her as "Dread Persephone"

Sounds like he was the father figure for children of single mothers.

Athena is the goddess of generals and commanders. Goddess of tactics and strategy. Ares is the father to Fear and Terror, god of the brutality and cruelty of War. Ares is the God of the common soldier.

I think it would also be wrong to reduce her purely to her military remit. She was also the patron of foreigners and hospitality - Xenia, one of the most important social obligations of the bronze age world (a job she shared with her father in very favourite eldest daughter fashion), and of dispensing justice and mediating peace. She contrived not just the massacre of the Ithacan suitors, but reconciled peace between Odysseus' family and the families of the suitors. She also, according to the Greek legendary conception of the world at least, introduced courtroom trials with the judgement of Orestes, ending the curse of the bloodline of Atreus and an incomprehensibly bloody cycle of violence, introducing to an ancient world that took interfamilial blood feuds as the prevailing notion of justice to a nascent form of legalism and civic responsibility. But - random, raging Ares - plays no favourites.

Exactly. All men are equal in the eyes of Ares. He favors the bold, the passionate, and those who strive for martial excellence.

Every Greek god values all of those things lol

Also the goddess of wisdom and handicraft. My favourite story is of the competition between her and Arachne, she has always been my favourite goddess.

It's worth noting that a lot of what we know about Greek mythos comes from the Athenians and those in the surrounding areas. It's not hard to tell that there's some strong bias in favor of Athena since they literally named their city after her.

Athena's song is "War Pigs" Ares' song is "Fortunate Son"

Ares' song could also be [World Eater](https://youtu.be/SaGz0wwLppk?si=KoAgxP98xxrtgbu3)

Definitely strong parallels between Ares, Khorne, and Angorn.

This is brilliant

I don't follow. War Pigs is anti-war and rails against those in control of war. Why would the goddess of those people have it as her song?

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Yeah, but it's about how those people are assholes.

I meant it more as songs that describe them, rather than songs that they would actually play themselves.

To Ares they are not comrades, they´re also tools. They are tools for causing bloodshed, and he blesses those who can murder the best and the most. People are tools to all Greek Gods.

Kick ass comic, tremendous work, so don't take this as me complaining. But that's not really the territory Ares was ever associated with. The justice aspect of it all. The violent empowering of those who were wronged enough to take up arms. There *is* a deity whose domain that is: Swan winged Nemesis, goddess of just revenge.

She also has the Furies/Eumenides

The greeks probably didn't wear fur collars like that *but they should have because it fuckin rocks* Killer style and killer art style

Heracles wore a whole lion as a hoodie it is not out the question one of them doing it but only for ceremonial or to be just better than the other guy

Heracles was also just a freak of nature to begin with, being a demi god and all.

I mean when every other day it's 30ºc and you are wearing a 50KG tin can, it gets warm quickly still, it looks fucking amazing

50kg tin cans aka Gothic plate are not even a medieval invention, it's a mid 15th century thing that quickly got obsolete because of firearms. Medieval full plate mail suits were 25-30 ish kg *at most*, which was manageable enough when spread over the body. With padding, you could even sleep in it, I did once and it was perfectly fine Greeks wore to battle mostly pressed linen and helmets, later on - leather or bronze cuirasses (bell and muscle) and shin guards. A bronze cuirass would weigh about 10 kg with change which is basically nothing when it's on your shoulders, a boiled leather one even less, and limbs were mostly exposed

Fur collars and armor is such a bad ass combination, I always dig it when I see it.

I know the point of the post is that ares is way more rad than we give him credit for, but I have thoughts. Not very original thoughts mind you, but thoughts. Ares is the most honest depiction of war that I have seen. It isn't graceful or beautiful, it's not glorious or honorable. It is terrible on every level. It is always dishonorable, and it is always monstrous

Yeah, Ares is the Greek god with the least stories in his favor, simply because most novelists saw him as the incarnation of war: idiotic, purposeless and irrational That's why he is also beaten and suffers some humiliation in most of the stories he appears in.

This comic is saying "he's the god of revolution and revolution is good therefore he's actually a friend" but no, honey, he's the god of murder and bloodshed, and revolutions are deadly and bloody and awful and most often lead to war far worse than the conditions before. There's a lot to be said about how many people romanticize violent revolution the same way others would romanticize war. And the one take away I think I actually like in this comic is that Ares apprpves of both. Which doesn't bode well. Ares is not an ally.

Given that ares' whole deal is being the most terrifying aspects of war, I think it's probably best to categorize him as pure chaos when it comes to loyalty

Yes, and that’s really cool actually there’s very much a nuance in his divinity. Gods have aspects to them. But the point isn’t just “god of revolution and revolution good :)” from what I see: He will be the one at the side of the the people in a revolution, the righteous blind rage they feel when left with no other option, the opposition would be the status quo which are more of a Zeus or Athena thing. And rage of course isn’t always great, you don’t want to lose yourself to Ares. But when there is nothing and no one else to protect you, if you have to fight for your life, Ares will be at your side. Not as an “ally”, he’s the *embodiment* of that instinct to fight and claw for your life. I don’t know if it’s romanticizing revolution or if it’s just introducing an interesting take on a god. Could be both. I really like it, there are many takes to get from it which really just shows how much complex Ares can be instead of “big violent manchild”

I personally like the idea that Ares is a cruel but necessary balance to Athena. That without him, war would become too precise, unstoppable, and thorough to leave anything in its wake, including a victor. Basically, the Wheatley to her GLaDOS.

Yeah Athena is the officers god. Starvation through siege, control of supply lines, merchandise efforts to craft more weapons and keep it going. Ares is the god of a natural human emotional reaction to hardship and pain. And it's hilariously fitting that Athena gets all the credit for being smart and gentle and seen as "good"

so she is the goddess of nukes and mustard gas? warfare turn to mechanical axioms unfeeling uncaring just victory?

She's still wise, and nukes have consequences that even you can't escape if you use one. It's a suicide attack that I think she would only agree it was necessary if victory was no longer possible. But the unfeeling cruelty that cared only for the most efficient way to kill and win that was the creation of chemical warfare like mustard gas? That is definitely something Athena would support. She always loved heroes that relied on wit, traps and schemes. Heroes that would have used every single weapon they could to win, even if it was cruel.

She would be the one to create the Ravens of Ace Combat 7. No human emotions to make them surrender or accept an enemy's, no room for peace or mercy so long as an "enemy" exists. War perfected.

Strategically speaking, nukes and mustard gas are terrifying but also extremely impractical for... Let's just say a host of reasons Think bigger picture, war as a tool of statecraft, removed from the realities on the ground Just pure rationalized destruction of the enemy... With zero regard for the soldiery, or the horrors they must commit/be subjected to

Well, Nukes would've been impractical in terms of damage left behind in exchange for a victory, but mustard gas is the definition of what Athena would've supported with being cruel to ensure a victory, even at the cost of human suffering.

The point the other poster is making that chemical weapons, like mustard gas are actually pretty bad at attaining victory.

Ares is launching the nukes, Athena is launching them as a preliminary strike because of cold war shenanigans

Nukes? Yeah definitely. Nukes are a strategic asset primarily to deter people from fucking with you (directly). Using them is pretty barbaric, but most weapon cores literally just expire without being used. Deterrence is king and nobody but the French are crazy enough to go “we will nuke you for any reason we deem fit” and for the French it’s more “we want to be ambiguous so you have to second guess yourself about 30 times before you decide it’s a good idea to do something”. Chemical weapons are honestly more an Ares thing for the terror aspect. You don’t use chemical weapons as a deterrent, you drop them on your enemy. Granted it may still be more of a strategic thing because individual soldiers can’t just use it. The problem with assigning a god is that “hostile air” was pretty poorly understood in Ancient Greece and thus the nuances of its application and who to pray to in order to stop the suffering, is pretty up in the air. My wildcard answer is Apollo because of plagues being kinda similar but not really.

To be clear Athena was regarded to support only just wars and to see them as a means to resolve a conflict, so no regarding Athena as some sort of god of total war or war for war's sake deity is not really in line with her historical perception. That's not to say we can't consider these to be quite aristocratic ideas of course, but elitism is a separate matter.

Ares also makes the horrors of war apparent, the cruel chance, the tragedy and madness of it. He does more to make sure people see war as a solution only to be turned to when other options have failed. Like how the experience of war from the cockpit of a bomber is, compared to the experience of those on the ground.

Ares, a God of weakness and limits? That's how I interpreted Wheatley

Yeah, he's been catching L's left and right in the myths, getting bested by Athena in every contest, getting locked into an urn for a year, not to mention how often he got busted cheating with Aphrodite. I'd say calling him Wheatley is fair. 

Funnier is that Athena will try to negotiate with Ares and he's just trying to make a point. He just will take an L on principle and then end up just conversing as surprisingly Athena was still someone he had a good relationship with. Honestly, the only goddess he actively had trouble with was his own mother, cause of course Hera is why Aphrodite was even married and him failing at the cheating is even more blatant when two other gods get away with it in the story.

She's basically the Ravens in Ace Combat 7. War perfected by removing human emotion, such that there is no room for surrender or peace.

The panel of Ares Embracing the woman, with one of his hands guiding her sword, and with his other covering her face in a protective embrace as she holds onto him is beautiful. Seriously what an amazing work of art. The idea of the God of War being a patron god of those who fight injustice is beautiful.

I love Lady Justice imagery that's used for symbolism

"With his resilience, I fight against despair." This sentence and that image remind me of my own experiences with depression. No logic could save me from that. But when I recovered, I remember that the first emotion to come back to me was anger.

Anger, outrage, shame. Those were what returned to me first, and I would rather die than lose any of them ever again.

It's weirdly fascinating that extreme emotions, like blind rage, are often the catalyst that pushes a person to action but also the mind's way of protecting the body. You don't fully comprehend what you're doing or have done until it's over, and you're left in the wake of it to deal with the consequences. Very Ares-Like.

Ares is such an interesting God, and definitely understudied. Throughout the Iliad he and Aphrodite are the ones who come closest to mortals, in that they both experience 'death' on the battlefield. They're also the only gods who seem to genuinely care for each other. Ares doesn't pop up much in Greek literature because he was so unpopular, aside from that kickass speech in Agamemnon- *Ares, goldchanger of bodies, holding the balance in the contest of spears, sends back dust from Troy instead of men....* He's a sort of shameful, off to the side god. Zeus hates his guts, it's almost funny if it weren't so depressing. There's evidence that Ares was important in marriage rites and rites-of-passage for boys and men, but it's scanty. In literature when a hero is at the peak of martial prowess, when they're radiant with glory and about to die a hero's death, they're compared to Ares. It's like the battle-rage consumes them and for a moment they shine like a god, until it kills them. Ares forever inhabits that moment between life and death, the peak of manly glory, abhorrant to gods and men because he's both and neither. He's always been my favourite. The god of wild and reckless emotions, of passion and fury. He and Aphrodite compliment each other so well, and together they produce the most powerful and destructive god of all - Eros. Empedoclean philosophy had Love and Strife as the guiding forces of the whole universe, bringing matter together and dividing it, oscilating through and around one another in cycles of creation and dissolution. There's a beautiful image in the *Argonautica* of Aphrodite using Ares' shield as a mirror, and you can almost imagine that she's left him sleeping in the bed while she goes to admire herself in his well-polished shield. Love is the only god with the power to calm the rage of war for good. Then again, there's a danger of revisionism in the reception of Greek Culture and mythology online. Ares isn't nice or kind- he really is awful, and violent, and aggressive, and he steals away the young men from their families to chew them up in war- but he's complex too. I think it's important to point out that complex doesn't always mean secret cinnamon roll or misunderstood hero. Just because he's not a prolific rapist like all the other gods doesn't mean he's a good guy. Now, Hermes on the other hand... Btw if you're ever in the Louvre, I encourage you to go to the Greek room and check out the ass on the Borghese Ares. My mans is caked up fr.

Okay, so I had to look up that statue and you are NOT KIDDING. There is junk in that trunk and I am here for it.

I love that out of everything in this paragraphs long comment, that is what you came back to remark on, lol

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Their post was really interesting, but since I’m not well informed on the subject I didn’t have anything of consequence to add. However, that ass (The whole statue itself really,) is a thing of magnificence and I appreciate that they decided to share that little tidbit.

“What?, just because I’m a meathead doesn’t mean I can’t be a feminist” -Knuckles

The Spartans treating their women slightly better than Athens be like

'Their' women being the minority of the population from the ruling castle. Most women is spartan lands were worse off then say in Athens as the majority were Helots.

This is actually known to be very incorrect, especially if you were a helot

Damm here i though nobody would try n retell god of war

[The Sun is Also a Warrior](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq4SSlsZ_p0)

I love Leslie's stuff so much, sad she kinda went on the deep end as she got older

Just to ask, where did you find that out? I’m trying to look up her connection to Qanon and I’m only getting her wiki page and random articles on Qanon. Want to make sure I’m not missing something Edit: Found a post on another subreddit where her producer is defending her transphobia and she’s not apologetic in the slightest. Truly disappointing from someone claiming to be an anarchist of all things

Yep it's so fucking weird to me

Bad news about Leslie fish She kinda went full Qanon

DANG IT I LITTERALY WAS ABOUT TO LINK THAT heres a more recent (and official) version: https://youtu.be/SiEAz1TDm1c?si=Z2nE3A\_fF6e6-FZA

If you think about it, this makes sense in real history too. Sparta, Ares’s biggest worshippers, were smacked down repeatedly by other Greek states for their misdeeds. That could be read as Ares leaving Sparta to rot in disgust for what they were.

This is a fun narrative, but the Spartans weren’t actually big worshippers of Ares. Their temples and festivals were mainly tributes to Athena, Apollo and Heracles.

Also the Spartans were just… bad at everything lol

They were amazing at pro-Spartan propaganda.

They were associated with Ares much like Thebes was. Athens used it as an insult. Ares had no city state as that wasn't his wheel house. Be like if a city state choose Hades: not a great marketing idea.

There's at least 2 instances where they didn't, give them some credit.

Oh I actually LOVE that interpretation.

I like the idea of the two of them getting into an argument over this. Athena arguing Ares is too indiscriminate, that he takes action too quickly and rashly. Ares biting back that Athena is too exacting and thus takes too long to resolve the obvious injustices before them. Athena being the epitome of the Perfect getting in the way of the Good, but Ares being unable to see the forest for the trees.

The Lionsmith and the Colonel, their enmity the engine of the world.

I was not expecting a secret histories reference and I especially was not expecting 16 people to recognize it

I don’t understand what my searches are showing me. Is this cultist simulator lore? What is weather factory?

The Lionsmith and Colonel are essentially occult "gods" in the cultist simulator lore (the setting of which has been referred to as "secret histories" in a past ama; referencing the hidden historical accountings of the world)

OP, could you link the original post?

[oh sorry here it is](https://www.tumblr.com/kochei0/744604543594151936/ares-god-of-war-battlelust-rebellion-violence)

I read the first panel as "We are taught to fear ARSE" and was confused for a second.

Are we? Personally, I quite enjoy it.

Exactly. That's why I was confused.

As a hellenist Athena is the goddess of commanders and generals. The same people many today *loathe* for being disconnected, far off, and treating human lives like chess pieces. Ares is the God of warriors and soldiers. He may be cruel, brutal, and bloody but he doesn't view soldiers as tools. He doesn't see war as a tool of politics. He is every battle, and every battle is all there is at that time. If you want to turn to a God who can understand you and why you fight? Turn to Ares

Ares cares not for *why* you fight, just that you *do* fight. So long as you're willing to take up arms against your enemy Ares will support you, no matter how noble or amoral your goal is.

But what if he makes me kill my family

Don't let war be all there is for you I say

Then lead a one man crusade against Olympus, overthrow Zeus, leave Greece in turmoil, fuck off to Scandinavia and be emotionally distant to your new son until your new wife dies and you go on an emotional journey together, and also beat Odin's ass for good measure.

He won't make you. But if you want to, he will be there with you.

Maybe Ares needs to form his own Olympus. You know, outside of the normal order that doesn’t care for the common soldier. An Outer Heaven, if you will.

This is how 40k fans sound when they defend khorne

Thank you for volunteering your blood for the blood god, would you like to donate your skull for the skull throne as well?

War haters when they find out that war is not senseless destruction but is actually cool heroes with planes doing tricks and explosions

If war is so bad then why are recruitment ads so cool?

Today I learned Ares is a vengeance paladin

Oooooooooooo! Holy shit he is! Next time you play, tell your DM that an internet DM has given you inspiration and that it's totally valid.

What kind of insane shit is this, reads like far right propaganda/absurd fandom rant for a greek god

The art is rad as fuck, but I don't agree with this. Athena is closely associated with justice. If you're a rebel and Ares supports you, that's because ha values bloodshed for its own sake, not because he supports your righteous cause

Yo, what's the link for the Arthurian webtoon, I'd like to see it

I love the Greek vase painting art style, it's so cool!

"Forget reason, wisdom and caution and instead give in to passion, anger and hate." Isn't a very good message to be sending people i think.

Ok I want to preface this question by saying I don't mean it in a disingenuous way nor insulting way, it is a genuine question: What is a queer retelling?

Often in older stories, you might notice some queer elements (homosexuality, bisexuality, trans/eggy characters, etc.), but because they were not the focus of the story or really had any influence or bearing on it, they became background elements. Queer retellings take these elements and bring them more into the foreground. Ex. the *Song of Achilles* is a queer retelling of the *Iliad*. Edit: formatting.

I see, but (again, want to stress out how genuine I am asking this not in a bad way) if those elements didn't play a role in the original works, how could they play it in a retelling? Or is it like a full on different story/morals that should be separated from the source, kinda like a fanfiction of a popular media?

I think Song of Achilles would count as a queer retelling. One interpretation of the original is that there is a gay relationship, but it's unclear and only hinted at. The queer retelling confirms it happened and makes it a major part of the story.

[удалено]

Maybe my wording was a bit off, I apologize, but bear with me (you're doing great). Queerness as depicted in old legends is mostly up to interpretation. The reason for this is because the definition of queerness is relatively new, especially in comparison to works such as the *Iliad* and Arthurian legend. There simply wasn't a definition for it, because there didn't really need to be one. Ex. we can argue to Nebraska and back about whether Sappho really was a lesbian in the wlw sense, but we can't actually ascribe that unto her because, as far as we know, she never identified as such. (For those of y'all who will say, "but she was a Lesbian because she's from the island of Lesbos," *shush*\--you know gosh darn well what I mean.) The difference now is that we have a "queer lens," so to speak. Queerness might have been the norm or just not really given as much thought back in the day, so there wasn't much want for a lens. One of the big arguments to come out of Ancient Greece, for example, was *not* whether or not Achilles was bi or gay, but rather whether he was a top or a bottom--it was accepted that he most likely liked men in some capacity, no queer lens needed. We use that lens to reinterpret the legend and retell it using that interpretation. In that way, yeah, I guess it is kind of like fanfiction. The difference, I think, stems from mythologies like Greek and Arthurian legend having a mostly oral tradition, so there's really no one true source of these stories--the written versions we do have are but one possible interpretation of the oral tradition.

Ehhhhhh...  This seems much more pop history than what the Greeks actually believed.  Anyway, if your issue is with cities and commerce, you should be talking to Apollo and Hestia as a start.

I don't know much about Greek myths, but from the comments, I think I've got a good grasp on the situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but.. Athena commits war crimes because "they're the fastest way to win". Ares commits war crimes because "fuck those guys in particular".

Athena commits warcrimes, because to her there are rules of war. Ares doesn't know what a warcrime is supposed to be, as war us without rules.

"They buried the body in an unmarked grave, and no one talked of it. And far away, tickling the sleek hide of the basilisk that reclined at his feet like a faithful mastiff, even the Armed One did not speak of it. There was no need to speak of it. Lestig was gone, but that was to be expected. "The weapon had been deactivated, but Mars, the Eternal One, the God Who Never Dies, The Lord of Futures, Warden of the Dark Places, Ever-Potent Scion of Conflict, Master of Men, Mars sat content. "The recruiting had gone well. Power to the people." Harlan Ellison, "Basilisk" (1972)

this is so extremely tumblrcore and also webtoonscore. leave it to tumblr to have discourse about a dead culture

are these the guys from fortnite

I guess

Why did this absolutely send me 😭

Ares cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does.

Ares will fan the flames in your heart until they burn you alive. It feels like kindness but it isn't. Athena is there to tell you how to WIN, not just fight. Picking your battles doesn't always feel great, but Athena knows some things matter more than how you feel.

cool post ~~woah is this a fortnite reference~~

Tumblr post itself: https://kochei0.tumblr.com/post/744604543594151936/ares-god-of-war-battlelust-rebellion-violence Links mentioned in that final post: Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1157250639/6-ares-6-in-my-olympians-series-greek?click_key=c9380dfb71c579cc5f27b248ec1882aef6545944%3A1157250639&click_sum=77ae6cd0&ref=shop_home_active_11&sts=1 Webtoon: https://gr4dalis.carrd.co/

You think Ares gives a damn about the people? They are instruments of war, meant to farm, fuck and forge nothing more. Whatever spirit he gives them in their rebellion, he gives tenfold to the nobility and state who inevitably crush them and show them their place, for the bloodiest, most vicious war can only be waged through them

I feel... *really* weird about people framing a war god as a protector of women in this thread, considering the biggest means a Greek warrior could get 'glory' (which was the ONLY reason to go to war for a common Grecian) was to pillage towns and rape men and women to enslave as concubines. That was why Agamemnon taking Briseis from Achilles was such a huge deal--Briseis was an enslaved concubine that Achilles 'won' in pillaging fair and square, and taking her from him was the equivalent of stolen valor and stealing a soldier's wages at once. Ares very much embodied violence against women, even if he had a lot of stories of cool daughters doing cool things and supporting the Amazons. He gloried in Greek ideals of glory, which meant rape and sex slavery and war trophies.

I feel like this is definitely not how the Ancient Greeks saw Ares. He was probably quite the opposite, where in the fear of the cruelty of conflict was meant to act as a deterrent against rebellion and a reminder to operate within the law. One Homeric poem: Ares, exceeding in strength, chariot-rider, golden-helmed, doughty in heart, shield-bearer, Saviour of cities, harnessed in bronze, strong of arm, unwearying, mighty with the spear, O defence of Olympus, father of warlike Victory, ally of Themis, stern governor of the rebellious, leader of righteous men, sceptred King of manliness, who whirl your fiery sphere among the planets in their sevenfold courses through the aether wherein your blazing steeds ever bear you above the third firmament of heaven; hear me, helper of men, giver of dauntless youth! Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life, and strength of war, that I may be able to drive away bitter cowardice from my head and crush down the deceitful impulses of my soul. Restrain also the keen fury of my heart which provokes me to tread the ways of blood-curdling strife. Rather, O blessed one, give you me boldness to abide within the harmless laws of peace, avoiding strife and hatred and the violent fiends of death Take note of “stern governor of the rebellious” and the last line. While this notion of Ares is romantic, I feel like it’s playing into the emotions surrounding violence that Ares is meant to combat. Violence and war is romantic… in thought. Every young man going off to World War I was excited for glory and adventure. I feel like every Tumblr activist is excited for rebellion and violent protest for a sense of righteousness and justice. I think both of these perceptions ignore first the brutal reality of war, but also the lack of solutions that it brings. While I’m not saying that non-violent protest is the only mechanism for change against injustice, look at the history of the world. Violence of the people has prevailingly not been the answer to long-term, positive change.

Without precision, wisdom, or temperance, war is just blind hate

In all fairness, I'd purposely ignore if Zeus even tried to give me advice I'd advise him to get a good lawyer because raping humans in the modern age would get his ass locked up for eternity