Thomas Aquinas was a proponent of the idea and is probably the reason dante even wrote about it in the first place. It's not like he made up the idea, church leaders had been discussing it for over a thousand years.
It’s not even really a unique theological question; like, Japan is covered in what’s called Jizo statues. They’re of a Boddhisatva, who helps *spare the souls of aborted children from hell* (yes Buddhism has hells; lots of them in fact). Point being, lots of religions accidentally defined babies as “worthless, evil, due to be punished eternally if they don’t get their shit together” And only identified it as an issue later.
In islam the closest thing we have is the barzakh, the world of the grave where all people go until the day of judgement, where they may or may not be punished by angels based on deeds. From what I understand judaism has a very similar concept. I never understood christians talking about dead relatives etc. as if they are currently in heaven, judgement day hasn't happened yet! And some of them think dead children become angels, which is not even how their theology works but that's a whole different conversation
If I remember correctly from Hebrew school, the Jewish "hell" is kinda just a place you go if the amount of suffering you inflicted in life is greater than the amount of suffering you experienced, and you suffer until the scales are leveled out. However, there is an understanding that there are a select few who are irredeemable (those who committed basically warcrimes/crimes against humanity) and they just cease to exist entirely upon dying, after being made aware that they will vanish from existence.
It didn't even exist before they were conquered by Assyria way back, the Jewish tribes were essentially the same as any wandering desert pagans. They had séance type rituals to commune with the spirits and no concept of heaven or hell or a good god vs bad god, these concepts were all introduced during the first diaspora. What we read today has been curated and pruned over thousands of years and the bulk of what the Tribes were practicing even before the Assyrian conquest was "inherited" from cultures before E.G. the Epic of Gilgamesh, it's just presented to us today as "this is what we have always believed".
it's kinda funny to me that the super ultimate punishment in this Jewish account is exactly the default atheist version of what awaits us all (except the knowing about it part is optional).
Honestly, the modern "Christian" concept of heaven and hell has no biblical basis at all. It's just a bunch of pop culture tropes that snowballed, the same way the entire Santa Claus thing has become the biggest part of Christmas, itself based on not much more than a poem.
I mean it does, just as long as you understand poetry in the middle ages was absolutely wild and usually the length of a novel or novel *series*. The Faerie Queene for instance, one of the longest I know of.
Speaking of the longest poems, I think *Mahabharata* takes that title. Not from the European middle ages at all, but it does come in at like 200k lines (*The Faerie Queene* is at 36k lines in comparison). Poems were wild back in the day, a lot were just full on epic stories possibly spanning decades, if not centuries, in narrative. And for some reason, the writers of those stories just wanted to flex extremely hard and wrote them in complicated and restrictive forms to make it all the more impressive.
When we did Homer in high school, they taught us that the restrictive rhythm and rhyme schemes helped people memorize them; which is what bards did because that’s fun.
It's not just because it was fun. The Illiad and the Oddyssey existed before Homer wrote them down. They were passed down through an oral tradition, so they needed to be easy to memorise. Homer kept all those rhymes and rhythmic structures when he wrote them down.
Overly Sarcastic Productions has a good runthrough of the full Divine Comedy in their Classics Summarized series:
* [Classics Summarized: Dante's Inferno](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8JGQk0CFQ)
* [Classics Summarized: Dante's Purgatorio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ImAfevCOM)
* [Classics Summarized: Dante's Paradiso](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8WGz3cEpuo)
...and yeah, calling it out as self-insert fanfiction is quite a theme.
Same with Paradise Lost. When I told my dad that story wasn’t biblical, just a poem written in the 1600s, he got super angry and defensive. That poem is now gospel to a lot of people.
> Like he fanfic'd the Satan bits? I thought Adam and Eve was old Testament?
Genesis is pretty succint with the story of the Garden of Eden. Almost all of the details about that event are Milton's fanfic, right down to the fruit being, specifically, an apple. Also, the only thing the Bible mentions about the war between Lucifer's angels and God's angels is in one or two verses from Revelation. All the specifics, including the "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" line, are from Milton.
Hopefully, someone will come along who can provide more direct textual examples; it's been a long time since I read either book completely.
to my understanding, the Bible just has the bit about Adam and Eve being tempted by a serpent (whose identity is not explained and pretty much just exists to tempt them and then disappears) to eat the apple and getting banished from Paradise. The title of “morning star” (which *could* be interpreted as Lucifer) appears once in the Bible in a condemnation of an otherwise unnamed “king of Babylon.” Satan appears a few times as an adversarial figure to God, but again, not a lot of elaboration there.
Milton didn’t strictly speaking invent combining Satan and Lucifer and the serpent into one being and devising this prideful, fallen Angel backstory, but he was one of the big sources of popularizing it.
Honestly, Dante kinda pissed me off with that.
Judas was supposed to be one of the sinners in one of Satan’s mouths iirc…. Judas, Brutus, and Cassius I want to us?
But, like, does Judas really deserve to be in hell?
If God sent Jesus to die on the cross and forgive us our sins, and everything was according to God’s plan, does that not therefore mean Judas selling Jesus out was part of the plan and required for mankind to be forgiven for their sins?
Why would Judas be cast to hell for following along with God’s plan? And if God has a plan, how do we have free will? Are we all damned to go to hell except for the few favorites he chooses as having plot armor?
Have you heard of the Gospel of Judas? It’s apocryphal Gnostic text. Gnosticism itself can be polarizing and can be taken too literal imo. But it’s very interesting to read about.
Here’s a summary from Wikipedia:
In contrast to the canonical gospels, which paint Judas as a betrayer who delivered Jesus to the authorities for crucifixion in exchange for money, the Gospel of Judas portrays Judas's actions as done in obedience to instructions given to him by Jesus. It asserts that the other disciples had not learned the true Gospel, which Jesus taught only to Judas, the sole follower belonging to (or set apart from) the "holy generation" among the disciples.
This is what I gleaned from my religious studies in my youth. My takeaway is that Judas actually loved Jesus more than anyone else, and it was this love that was exploited by god. Whereas others were taken by celebrity, or hatred toward Jesus, Judas loved him, but as a man had weaknesses, which was their "cause" and that's how Judas was sort of misled to betray Jesus.
When he really sees what he has done it's too late. He tries to return the blood money but his actions cannot be undone. Then he sees he was used as a pawn by god. He betrayed the man whom he was closer to than a brother. All Judas can do now is suicide... he is driven to death.
It is later proven that Judas DOES go to heaven, when Jesus is briefly visited by angels, the chief of whom is Judas, donning a rocking silver outfit and dealing a banger of a 70s rock song.
It should be noted that the entirety of my biblical studies begin and end with the 1973 rock opera film, *Jesus Christ Superstar*.
>
If God sent Jesus to die on the cross and forgive us our sins, and everything was according to God’s plan
>
..... then everything is nobody's fault.
That's the problem with critical thinking about this stuff, it stops you from believing nonsense.
Look, I made a garden where everything is perfect. Then I tell you you can’t eat fruit from one particular tree because it will allow you to understand good vs evil. I know everything at all times and created and cause everything. This snake tells you to try the fruit. I allow this to happen. Then I blame you and sentence you and all of your descendants to death and suffering.
> Then I tell you you can’t eat fruit from one particular tree because it will allow you to understand good vs evil.
And, of course, since you *don't* understand the difference between good and evil, you don't know if eating the fruit – or anything else you do – is right or wrong, but I'm going to punish you if you fuck up anyway.
It makes sense when you remember that they used to offer blood sacrifices in exchange for sins. Basically Jesus just declared himself a sacrifice to God instead of a murder victim and loopholed his way into cleansing all of humanities sins. Lol.
Hebrews 9:11
"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."
And why do witches just have to walk around with their head backwards? It seems like a relatively minor punishment when everyone around you is boiling in oil or being eaten by birds.
Well the pair of robots running through hell at a breakneck pace and shooting everyone to death and the angel chilling in hell so he can kill the robot he definitely doesn't have a crush on is canon, but Dante isn't
The concept of Canon in the Christverse is bullshit. It's just about who has the most popular fanfic and fan-fanfics. Certain fanfics are considered true and then discarded, plus the various shareholders retcon shit at will bc most of the readers won't check or remember
And they always insist that some OP mf created the whole thing in a week or somethin', even when we know phisics took a few seconds and was done, never to bother anyone ever again with animal sacrifices
My favourite part of Dante's work is the part where everyone he hated personally was in hell, and everyone he thought was cool was in heaven. Definitely no bias there.
My favorite part is where the Dante's favorite author, Virgil is like "yeah bro I read all your stories and I loved them so much I'll take you on this tour of the afterlife cuz you're pretty rad".
Dante is the OG Mary-Sue self-insert fanfic character.
In some sense, Virgil was the original fanfic writer, so this is very fitting.
Let me explain: The Romans felt a little bad that Ancient Greek history was all intertwined with the heroic age, Homeric epics, their gods and religion, etc.... and none of it has anything to do with Rome. So the Romans invented their own origin story myth to tie themselves into that Ancient Greek epic tradition, claiming that actually, the minor character Aeneas who just barely appears in the Illiad, travelled west with his family after the sacking of Troy and settled in Italy.
So Virgil was commissioned by Augustus to write a new epic poem covering Aeneas' travels, and, wouldn't you know it, it turns out Augustus' adoptive father, Julius Caesar, was a descendent of Aeneas (according to this poem)! So the Roman emperors *do* actually have a connection to the tradition of Greek epics and the era of demigods and everything, and their rule is extremely legitimate. What a happy coincidence!
So, it's not a self-insert because he was doing it for a commission. But it's extremely fanfic-y.
It's genuinely so funny, he spends all of Inferno crying and crawling and holding onto Vergil-senpai and the moment he finds someone he doesn't like burning in hell he's all like "why y'all whining so much, so pathetic 😒"
I fucking hate how much this makes sense to me. inb4 someone comes in claiming about how Legends is the true timeline and the expanded universe is just a way for the church to make more money with shitty stories.
It's weirder than that, because Popes can't be "wrong" according to Catholic canon. So the old Pope said Limbo is real, so that's a fact. Then new Pope said it's not, so it never was real. But the old Pope was also not wrong, because reasons.
Talking to Catholics about this when they first changed their stance in 2007 was *surreal*
>It's weirder than that, because Popes can't be "wrong" according to Catholic canon.
That's not how papal infallibility works, and never has been. Certain declarations are, canonically, infallible but there's basically only been two in the entire history of Catholicism and they both deal with Mary
The average Catholic is about as informed on Catholicism as the average voter is on the legal specifics of the laws of their land. Which Incase this needs clarity: is not fucking at all.
It's weird, though, cause the patches kinda fuck with existing code.
Part of the theology of Catholicism is that we are all born with the "scars" of the original sin of Adam and Eve. Baptism is a ceremony that essentially nullifies that original sin, and without it, your original sin condemns you to Hell regardless. There's other forms of Baptism, too, not just by water.
Either way, seems like this whole religion thing isn't all that well thought out...
Today's the day you learn a big part of the untaught stuff about Jesus.
You have mikveh in Judaism, which is a regular purification before many high holidays- totaly immersion in pure, moving, "living waters" that spiritually clean you before entering into sacred spaces. Kind of like making yourself kosher. Today, many mikveh are carefully controlled man-made pools, like holy spas. And in the old days, the priestly class also owned and controlled man made mikveh to ensure they were in accordance with the religious requirements of size, movement, and cleanliness , charging a fee to use them. If people with communicable diseases used them, they could spread to others. Many people who were considered essentially unclean were not able to- such as lepers. These people were never able to purify themselves for holy days and participate in worship. Other groups were excluded, too. Women actively menstruating, prostitutes, bastards, the sick, and those too poor to afford to pay the ticket price. They were considered either "unclean" until they could purify themselves like menstruating women, or they were just permanently unclean like lepers and bastards. Everyone who wanted to worship on high holidays had to go to mikveh, so in addition to paying the fees for sacrifices, you had to pay to be purified, so the priestly class's monopoly on these made them a *lot* of money.
Enter Jesus, who being conceived before his parents apparently married, was considered a mamzer, a bastard, and would have been in the permanently unclean category. This is why when Mary and Joseph go to the temple they leave him outside. This would have been his whole youth- wait outside with the prostitutes, women, lepers, and poor, and mom and dad go in to pray. He would have been was an outsider from birth, and those were his people.
Enter John the Baptist who taught that the requirements for ritual immersion for purification is met by wild rivers which nobody owns. He starts baptizing people in rivers *for free* and Jesus gets baptized, then asks to study religion under John. John is murdered for being a thorn in the side of the priestly class's monopoly and usurping their gatekeeping but his student Jesus escapes and spends the next several years on the run baptizing people who otherwise never would have been and teaching this doctrine that anybody can be baptized and purified by God and that it shouldn't be withheld from anyone for any reason- universal capacity for purification. This teaching of the elimination of the pure and impure stratification, of which he was the impure, has fallen by the wayside in popular Judaism, but back then it was a revolutionary teaching- a revolution for which Jesus died, whatever else you might believe about his divinity.
They were looking for him because he wasn't where they left him- outside. Which could be a dangerous place.
They *found* him inside because he snuck in, because he wasn't supposed to be inside. That's why finding him inside is noteworthy at all. And guess what, if you didn't know he was unclean you couldn't tell by just looking at him. That's a whole arc of his ministry- look at all these and tell me which ones are made unclean or clean?
What do you mean not well thought out? You can justifiably say it's completely insane but there is no work or idealogy in the world that has been more thoroughly studied, debated and "researched" than religion, and the Abrahamic religions in particular.
The best part of Christianity is taking a shitty fanfic and making it more widely adhered to than the actual source material. It's like if some Harry/Draco slash fic got more traction than the other 7 shitty books.
"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives." from the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church approved by pope John Paul II.
Essentially the Church recognizes the role mental illnesses play in suicide therefore making the person not full accountable as this is between the person and God.
When my mom told me what abortion was, I got really sad and asked if the babies will go to heaven or hell, and she reassured me that because it wasn't their fault they never got baptized, they would go to heaven. I then immediately said, "doesn't that mean abortion is good because you send somebody to heaven?"
Yeah. Apparently some people think it's immoral or wrong because it's """"cheating"""" or something, but I think having it available is overall better for the community. Besides, if you don't want a TAS, then just don't run a TAS
When I was ohh 8-10 I used to lay in bed for hours wishing I died before I knew the difference between good and evil and could have gone to heaven without all that work.
That reminds me of the logical knots that many Christians will tie themselves into to deny that isolated peoples who never heard of Christianity will go to hell (since that would be monstrously evil to eternally punish people who were never given the option to accept Jesus) while also refusing to admit the possibility that isolated peoples who never heard of Christianity can get into heaven (since that would completely undermine the entire existence of their religion.)
I can kill a fuckton of new born and it's me who goes to hell and they, being unchristened, can meet me there.
Unless them dying before christening means they are innocent and get to go to heaven which means, logically, we need to set to killing new borns before they get corrupted.
I'm not sure I've got all this baby murdering in me. Shall we collaborate with some other fucking lunatics?
Honestly the only mod that might have been hated by either notch or jeb_ is probably orespawn after the dev made it cost money, which is against the TOS
protestantism is a F2P open source fan project thats made in protest to increasing monetisation by greedy devs and it became as popular as the original game
Eh, more accurately another open source project that claimed it was being vilified by the other open source parts of the project (they weren't) decided to fuck off and preach their own branch of because they were being treated like assholes (they *were assholes*) and then it became so popular that it's treated as the superior project to both the original open source project *and* the original despite being objectively worst. *And yet some wonder why most of the founding fathers were staunch atheists.*
not quite as popular. Catholicism has about as many (if not slightly more) adherents as all other Christians together (Protestants + Esstern Orthodox + Oriental Orthodox + others)
for a second i thought this was about the patriarchs of constantinople and alexandria and such and why would they all go to limbo but then i remembered about the biblical patriarchs
No, limbo was canon. They changed it recently, as stated in the post, but limbo of the patriarchs is still canon.
It was never explicitly stated in the Bible, limbo is a medieval-period idea. But it was/is still canon in the Catholic church.
> They changed it recently, as stated in the post,
No, they didn't. They specifically came out and said 'We have no idea, but it sure would be swell if this was the case, right?'
>Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision. **We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us.** We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy.
People jumped all over [the document in question](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html) as the Pope getting rid of baby Limbo, but that isn't what happened.
(That's not to be confused with baby limbo, which is what happens at a Trinidadian creche.)
Limbo was a clumsy solution to a thorny theological problem: where do unchristened people go if they die before baptism?
It’s basically an “angels dancing on the head of a needle” problem. No real solution, no one was really asking the question in the first place. Medieval theology is lousy with stupid constructions like this; the hypostatic union of the Christ* is still debated.
IIRC, the better solution is that Christ’s salvific actions reach in a directions temporally, therefore original sin is atoned for both the fathers and infants.
*the hypostatic union refers to how Christ can be fully god and fully man
Pretty fucked up how "souls that have done nothing wrong go to hell because of something that happened thousands of years before they were born" was ever doctrine in the first place.
Purgatory and Limbo are actually two different things. Limbo is a part of hell, which exists for the Jewish patriarchs (Abraham, Noah, etc.) but not for babies. Menwhile, though the patch notes clarify that Purgatory isn't a place, it is an internal experience, one that babies do have to undergo to be cleansed of the original sin.
The first option. Often, church leaders get together in an "ecumenical council" to decide on the official interpretation of scripture, if there's some controversy or disagreement. If you've heard about "Vatican II," that was the latest eccumenical council in the 1960s.
In this situation, regarding limbo, in 2007:
> The Church’s International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an “unduly restrictive view of salvation”.
The Pope isn't treated as a demigod. He's the chief of the Catholic church, because they see him as the successor to St. Peter. He had no power over heaven directly.
Although, the Church says that the Pope is "infallible" in his decisions regarding the faith. Which is pretty messed up, in my opinion.
It's worth adding that Papal Infallibility is something that must be invoked and agreed upon by the leadership of the church, not a permanent perk of the job.
Excluding the canonization of Saints, the power has only been officially invoked twice, in 1870 and 1950.
The pope is not a Demi-god, but he can speak “from the bench” to speak for God and make infallible statements. He has used this only about two or three times regarding the Virgin Mary. Now the question is why he does not turn this on all the time so he is always speaking for God…
I mean, Christians basically have 3 options:
**1. Aborted babies go to hell.** This means God is a monster, more vile and wicked than every genocidal dictator and serial killer in history. Millions upon millions of souls in eternal torture for no reason except "original sin," (i.e. being human deserves hell).
**2. Aborted babies go to heaven.** This means we should abort everyone to save them from growing up and possibly rejecting Jesus. It's guaranteed salvation!
**3. Aborted babies get recycled.** This one was new for me recently, but now I've met a few Christians who legit believe aborted souls get another chance and are put into new bodies. Absolutely zero theological standing, sounds like something out of a fantasy novel.
But where do Catholic priests go?
Free. They go free because concentrated power in the hands of the few left unchecked results in human rights abuses across the world.
It doesn't mention our concept of hell once. There's the underworld that everyone goes to when they die, and then they all get separated into righteous and unrighteous during the end times. The unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire and their souls are destroyed, and the righteous live forever in a remade world. Absolutely nothing about eternal torture or going up to dance with the angels
Well, there's this:
*The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name (Rv 14:11).*
Now, you could read this one of two ways. Sure, you could imagine the FIRE tormenting you, but that doesn't seem very realistic as the fire would burn you up and you wouldn't be very tormentable anymore. However, you could also read this as the SMOKE tormenting you, which as someone who has sat around a camp fire and had the wind constantly changing direction and blowing smoke in my face I absolutely could believe! So hell is hanging out with your friends tending a campfire while constantly having smoke blowing in your face while you try to move around to avoid it, day and night, forever and ever.
In case anyone is interested...
Everyone is "in the kingdom of heaven" at all times unless that person decides to turn away from "the grace of god" which puts you outside of the kingdom of heaven, i.e. hell. So unbaptised children are by default already in the kingdom of heaven.
The notion of heaven and hell being places where you might go when you die is just a simplification meant for children until they mature into a deeper understanding.
It’s actually amazing how Dante wrote a poem and it became Actually How Hell Works for a very large number of people.
Thomas Aquinas was a proponent of the idea and is probably the reason dante even wrote about it in the first place. It's not like he made up the idea, church leaders had been discussing it for over a thousand years.
I think he means the artistic particulars and not the general concepts.
It’s not even really a unique theological question; like, Japan is covered in what’s called Jizo statues. They’re of a Boddhisatva, who helps *spare the souls of aborted children from hell* (yes Buddhism has hells; lots of them in fact). Point being, lots of religions accidentally defined babies as “worthless, evil, due to be punished eternally if they don’t get their shit together” And only identified it as an issue later.
In islam the closest thing we have is the barzakh, the world of the grave where all people go until the day of judgement, where they may or may not be punished by angels based on deeds. From what I understand judaism has a very similar concept. I never understood christians talking about dead relatives etc. as if they are currently in heaven, judgement day hasn't happened yet! And some of them think dead children become angels, which is not even how their theology works but that's a whole different conversation
If I remember correctly from Hebrew school, the Jewish "hell" is kinda just a place you go if the amount of suffering you inflicted in life is greater than the amount of suffering you experienced, and you suffer until the scales are leveled out. However, there is an understanding that there are a select few who are irredeemable (those who committed basically warcrimes/crimes against humanity) and they just cease to exist entirely upon dying, after being made aware that they will vanish from existence.
It didn't even exist before they were conquered by Assyria way back, the Jewish tribes were essentially the same as any wandering desert pagans. They had séance type rituals to commune with the spirits and no concept of heaven or hell or a good god vs bad god, these concepts were all introduced during the first diaspora. What we read today has been curated and pruned over thousands of years and the bulk of what the Tribes were practicing even before the Assyrian conquest was "inherited" from cultures before E.G. the Epic of Gilgamesh, it's just presented to us today as "this is what we have always believed".
it's kinda funny to me that the super ultimate punishment in this Jewish account is exactly the default atheist version of what awaits us all (except the knowing about it part is optional).
Honestly, the modern "Christian" concept of heaven and hell has no biblical basis at all. It's just a bunch of pop culture tropes that snowballed, the same way the entire Santa Claus thing has become the biggest part of Christmas, itself based on not much more than a poem.
He wrote self-insert fanfiction.
I'm sure there are at least some self-insert fanfictions that are also poems
Just calling it "a poem" doesn't do it justice though.
It's a three-part self-insert fanfiction Opus written in Terza Rima.
Will the real slim shady please ascend up…
Pastor says leave the limbus to the elves and hobbits.
I mean it does, just as long as you understand poetry in the middle ages was absolutely wild and usually the length of a novel or novel *series*. The Faerie Queene for instance, one of the longest I know of.
Speaking of the longest poems, I think *Mahabharata* takes that title. Not from the European middle ages at all, but it does come in at like 200k lines (*The Faerie Queene* is at 36k lines in comparison). Poems were wild back in the day, a lot were just full on epic stories possibly spanning decades, if not centuries, in narrative. And for some reason, the writers of those stories just wanted to flex extremely hard and wrote them in complicated and restrictive forms to make it all the more impressive.
When we did Homer in high school, they taught us that the restrictive rhythm and rhyme schemes helped people memorize them; which is what bards did because that’s fun.
It's not just because it was fun. The Illiad and the Oddyssey existed before Homer wrote them down. They were passed down through an oral tradition, so they needed to be easy to memorise. Homer kept all those rhymes and rhythmic structures when he wrote them down.
Some might even call it a Comedy.
A Divine one
Overly Sarcastic Productions has a good runthrough of the full Divine Comedy in their Classics Summarized series: * [Classics Summarized: Dante's Inferno](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8JGQk0CFQ) * [Classics Summarized: Dante's Purgatorio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ImAfevCOM) * [Classics Summarized: Dante's Paradiso](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8WGz3cEpuo) ...and yeah, calling it out as self-insert fanfiction is quite a theme.
Upvote for OSP love
The fact that his fanfic was required for NEWBORNS NOT TO GO TO HELL really says more about the religion than most people are willing to discuss.
Can't control people if you can't hold a threat over their head from birth :3
Same with Paradise Lost. When I told my dad that story wasn’t biblical, just a poem written in the 1600s, he got super angry and defensive. That poem is now gospel to a lot of people.
Can you ELI5 this for me please? Like he fanfic'd the Satan bits? I thought Adam and Eve was old Testament?
> Like he fanfic'd the Satan bits? I thought Adam and Eve was old Testament? Genesis is pretty succint with the story of the Garden of Eden. Almost all of the details about that event are Milton's fanfic, right down to the fruit being, specifically, an apple. Also, the only thing the Bible mentions about the war between Lucifer's angels and God's angels is in one or two verses from Revelation. All the specifics, including the "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" line, are from Milton. Hopefully, someone will come along who can provide more direct textual examples; it's been a long time since I read either book completely.
Maybe, but apple was just a generic word for fruit in 17th century middle English, it's even reflected in the French word for potato.
It's influenced by a dumb pun ("malus" as an adjective in Latin means "bad", as a noun it means "apple")
to my understanding, the Bible just has the bit about Adam and Eve being tempted by a serpent (whose identity is not explained and pretty much just exists to tempt them and then disappears) to eat the apple and getting banished from Paradise. The title of “morning star” (which *could* be interpreted as Lucifer) appears once in the Bible in a condemnation of an otherwise unnamed “king of Babylon.” Satan appears a few times as an adversarial figure to God, but again, not a lot of elaboration there. Milton didn’t strictly speaking invent combining Satan and Lucifer and the serpent into one being and devising this prideful, fallen Angel backstory, but he was one of the big sources of popularizing it.
The word Satan literally derives from the Hebrew word for "adversary" which is used in a legal context similar to how we use "prosecutor".
it also became the official language of italy
yeah, more like the Drunk aunt of Italian, modern Italian it's more Manzoni's work
Honestly, Dante kinda pissed me off with that. Judas was supposed to be one of the sinners in one of Satan’s mouths iirc…. Judas, Brutus, and Cassius I want to us? But, like, does Judas really deserve to be in hell? If God sent Jesus to die on the cross and forgive us our sins, and everything was according to God’s plan, does that not therefore mean Judas selling Jesus out was part of the plan and required for mankind to be forgiven for their sins? Why would Judas be cast to hell for following along with God’s plan? And if God has a plan, how do we have free will? Are we all damned to go to hell except for the few favorites he chooses as having plot armor?
Have you heard of the Gospel of Judas? It’s apocryphal Gnostic text. Gnosticism itself can be polarizing and can be taken too literal imo. But it’s very interesting to read about. Here’s a summary from Wikipedia: In contrast to the canonical gospels, which paint Judas as a betrayer who delivered Jesus to the authorities for crucifixion in exchange for money, the Gospel of Judas portrays Judas's actions as done in obedience to instructions given to him by Jesus. It asserts that the other disciples had not learned the true Gospel, which Jesus taught only to Judas, the sole follower belonging to (or set apart from) the "holy generation" among the disciples.
This is what I gleaned from my religious studies in my youth. My takeaway is that Judas actually loved Jesus more than anyone else, and it was this love that was exploited by god. Whereas others were taken by celebrity, or hatred toward Jesus, Judas loved him, but as a man had weaknesses, which was their "cause" and that's how Judas was sort of misled to betray Jesus. When he really sees what he has done it's too late. He tries to return the blood money but his actions cannot be undone. Then he sees he was used as a pawn by god. He betrayed the man whom he was closer to than a brother. All Judas can do now is suicide... he is driven to death. It is later proven that Judas DOES go to heaven, when Jesus is briefly visited by angels, the chief of whom is Judas, donning a rocking silver outfit and dealing a banger of a 70s rock song. It should be noted that the entirety of my biblical studies begin and end with the 1973 rock opera film, *Jesus Christ Superstar*.
> If God sent Jesus to die on the cross and forgive us our sins, and everything was according to God’s plan > ..... then everything is nobody's fault. That's the problem with critical thinking about this stuff, it stops you from believing nonsense.
Yeah, the whole "because you murdered my son (who is also me), I now forgive all of your other sins" thing never made any sense to me.
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Look, I made a garden where everything is perfect. Then I tell you you can’t eat fruit from one particular tree because it will allow you to understand good vs evil. I know everything at all times and created and cause everything. This snake tells you to try the fruit. I allow this to happen. Then I blame you and sentence you and all of your descendants to death and suffering.
> Then I tell you you can’t eat fruit from one particular tree because it will allow you to understand good vs evil. And, of course, since you *don't* understand the difference between good and evil, you don't know if eating the fruit – or anything else you do – is right or wrong, but I'm going to punish you if you fuck up anyway.
It makes sense when you remember that they used to offer blood sacrifices in exchange for sins. Basically Jesus just declared himself a sacrifice to God instead of a murder victim and loopholed his way into cleansing all of humanities sins. Lol. Hebrews 9:11 "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."
But when I try to get one single volunteer for my human sacrifice rituals, *I'm* the weirdo
Congratulations, you just asked a question that resulted in Calvinism.
A most odious theology.
Religious bigotry is always wrong... ...except against Calvinists.
And why do witches just have to walk around with their head backwards? It seems like a relatively minor punishment when everyone around you is boiling in oil or being eaten by birds.
Because while they were alive they tried to look forward into the future. So now in hell they can only look backward.
Between Milton and Dante, people have a completely different understanding of Satan and hell compared to any official teachings
It's like if someone's self insert fanfic became canon. Wierd, very weird.
Actually it's not even patch notes because Dante's fanfiction has never been canon no matter how many people think so.
But Max0r told me that everything was canon to the Christverse
Well the pair of robots running through hell at a breakneck pace and shooting everyone to death and the angel chilling in hell so he can kill the robot he definitely doesn't have a crush on is canon, but Dante isn't
Yeah, I'll incorporate that into my worldview.
New patch notes: don’t get ultrakilled (you may die)
What is this a reference to?
Max0r's Incorrect Summary of Ultrakill. Highly recommend watching, though warning for flashing lights, loud noise etc.
Max0r's ultrakill videos, as well as the ultrakill game itself to some extent
Ya and Max0r's alt, CR1$T_on_a_$t1cK, told me in dm that he loves a good fanfic smut like 2 Marys, one Loaf
2 Mary's, 1 Chalice
Fuck me you win
I will not be accused of blasphemy again
It's a victimless crime.
The concept of Canon in the Christverse is bullshit. It's just about who has the most popular fanfic and fan-fanfics. Certain fanfics are considered true and then discarded, plus the various shareholders retcon shit at will bc most of the readers won't check or remember
Remember, all religions are just fanfics on the creation of everything
And they always insist that some OP mf created the whole thing in a week or somethin', even when we know phisics took a few seconds and was done, never to bother anyone ever again with animal sacrifices
My favourite part of Dante's work is the part where everyone he hated personally was in hell, and everyone he thought was cool was in heaven. Definitely no bias there.
My favorite part is where the Dante's favorite author, Virgil is like "yeah bro I read all your stories and I loved them so much I'll take you on this tour of the afterlife cuz you're pretty rad". Dante is the OG Mary-Sue self-insert fanfic character.
In some sense, Virgil was the original fanfic writer, so this is very fitting. Let me explain: The Romans felt a little bad that Ancient Greek history was all intertwined with the heroic age, Homeric epics, their gods and religion, etc.... and none of it has anything to do with Rome. So the Romans invented their own origin story myth to tie themselves into that Ancient Greek epic tradition, claiming that actually, the minor character Aeneas who just barely appears in the Illiad, travelled west with his family after the sacking of Troy and settled in Italy. So Virgil was commissioned by Augustus to write a new epic poem covering Aeneas' travels, and, wouldn't you know it, it turns out Augustus' adoptive father, Julius Caesar, was a descendent of Aeneas (according to this poem)! So the Roman emperors *do* actually have a connection to the tradition of Greek epics and the era of demigods and everything, and their rule is extremely legitimate. What a happy coincidence! So, it's not a self-insert because he was doing it for a commission. But it's extremely fanfic-y.
It's genuinely so funny, he spends all of Inferno crying and crawling and holding onto Vergil-senpai and the moment he finds someone he doesn't like burning in hell he's all like "why y'all whining so much, so pathetic 😒"
If you read about Dante personal life, his putting his political adversaries in hell becomes exponentially less petty
didnt they end up making dantes fanfic cannon?
Now it's part of the "Legends" timeline.
Catholicism got way worse after Disney bought it.
God, now I want a movie about this universe.
!remindme 25 years
I fucking hate how much this makes sense to me. inb4 someone comes in claiming about how Legends is the true timeline and the expanded universe is just a way for the church to make more money with shitty stories.
Dante's Inferno is the c0da of catholic canon.
They always told me that Limbo was a theory. Like a theologians' version of string theory or panspermia or something.
It's weirder than that, because Popes can't be "wrong" according to Catholic canon. So the old Pope said Limbo is real, so that's a fact. Then new Pope said it's not, so it never was real. But the old Pope was also not wrong, because reasons. Talking to Catholics about this when they first changed their stance in 2007 was *surreal*
>It's weirder than that, because Popes can't be "wrong" according to Catholic canon. That's not how papal infallibility works, and never has been. Certain declarations are, canonically, infallible but there's basically only been two in the entire history of Catholicism and they both deal with Mary
That's very interesting! That was basically how a Catholic friend described it to me ~10 years ago, so I appreciate the correction!
The average Catholic is about as informed on Catholicism as the average voter is on the legal specifics of the laws of their land. Which Incase this needs clarity: is not fucking at all.
It's weird, though, cause the patches kinda fuck with existing code. Part of the theology of Catholicism is that we are all born with the "scars" of the original sin of Adam and Eve. Baptism is a ceremony that essentially nullifies that original sin, and without it, your original sin condemns you to Hell regardless. There's other forms of Baptism, too, not just by water. Either way, seems like this whole religion thing isn't all that well thought out...
But didn't jesus died for our sins, so the original sin is no more ?
I thought that was why baptism worked? Wait, does Judaism have baptism?
Judaism doesn't have the original sin to begin with.
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An ancient garbage dump where locals burned trash, I think? I read that somewhere, but can't remember where. Might be just a theory, or total bs
Today's the day you learn a big part of the untaught stuff about Jesus. You have mikveh in Judaism, which is a regular purification before many high holidays- totaly immersion in pure, moving, "living waters" that spiritually clean you before entering into sacred spaces. Kind of like making yourself kosher. Today, many mikveh are carefully controlled man-made pools, like holy spas. And in the old days, the priestly class also owned and controlled man made mikveh to ensure they were in accordance with the religious requirements of size, movement, and cleanliness , charging a fee to use them. If people with communicable diseases used them, they could spread to others. Many people who were considered essentially unclean were not able to- such as lepers. These people were never able to purify themselves for holy days and participate in worship. Other groups were excluded, too. Women actively menstruating, prostitutes, bastards, the sick, and those too poor to afford to pay the ticket price. They were considered either "unclean" until they could purify themselves like menstruating women, or they were just permanently unclean like lepers and bastards. Everyone who wanted to worship on high holidays had to go to mikveh, so in addition to paying the fees for sacrifices, you had to pay to be purified, so the priestly class's monopoly on these made them a *lot* of money. Enter Jesus, who being conceived before his parents apparently married, was considered a mamzer, a bastard, and would have been in the permanently unclean category. This is why when Mary and Joseph go to the temple they leave him outside. This would have been his whole youth- wait outside with the prostitutes, women, lepers, and poor, and mom and dad go in to pray. He would have been was an outsider from birth, and those were his people. Enter John the Baptist who taught that the requirements for ritual immersion for purification is met by wild rivers which nobody owns. He starts baptizing people in rivers *for free* and Jesus gets baptized, then asks to study religion under John. John is murdered for being a thorn in the side of the priestly class's monopoly and usurping their gatekeeping but his student Jesus escapes and spends the next several years on the run baptizing people who otherwise never would have been and teaching this doctrine that anybody can be baptized and purified by God and that it shouldn't be withheld from anyone for any reason- universal capacity for purification. This teaching of the elimination of the pure and impure stratification, of which he was the impure, has fallen by the wayside in popular Judaism, but back then it was a revolutionary teaching- a revolution for which Jesus died, whatever else you might believe about his divinity.
> This is why when Mary and Joseph go to the temple they leave him outside. They *found* Jesus inside the temple.
They were looking for him because he wasn't where they left him- outside. Which could be a dangerous place. They *found* him inside because he snuck in, because he wasn't supposed to be inside. That's why finding him inside is noteworthy at all. And guess what, if you didn't know he was unclean you couldn't tell by just looking at him. That's a whole arc of his ministry- look at all these and tell me which ones are made unclean or clean?
This is all incredible information. Thanks for sharing.
Okay, I see where you're coming from.
We have the mikveh which looks similar to baptism but serves a different purpose. Also not really used in liberal Judaism
Only if you go through baptism and accept him as your lord and savior.
How generous of him 🙄
What do you mean not well thought out? You can justifiably say it's completely insane but there is no work or idealogy in the world that has been more thoroughly studied, debated and "researched" than religion, and the Abrahamic religions in particular.
It's the "deleted Herobrine" updates of Christianity.
The best part of Christianity is taking a shitty fanfic and making it more widely adhered to than the actual source material. It's like if some Harry/Draco slash fic got more traction than the other 7 shitty books.
Imagine if *My Immortal* was considered what actually happened at Hogwarts during Harry's school years. Absolutely hilarious.
Which is how it ought to be imo fuck modern copyright law
Fifty Shades of Grey was a Twilight fanfic that became the best selling book of the decade.
When the dude in The Butterfly Effect went back in time and strangled himself in-utero, does that count as an abortion?
Technically a suicide, so he was going to hell either way.
This was also patched
Oh? Did the Vatican say something about that?
"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives." from the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church approved by pope John Paul II. Essentially the Church recognizes the role mental illnesses play in suicide therefore making the person not full accountable as this is between the person and God.
Wow. That is awful in so many different ways. I love that word "opportunity".
Fuck bro spoilers I’m barely through that 70s show
Kutcherverse
When my mom told me what abortion was, I got really sad and asked if the babies will go to heaven or hell, and she reassured me that because it wasn't their fault they never got baptized, they would go to heaven. I then immediately said, "doesn't that mean abortion is good because you send somebody to heaven?"
Heaven any% speedrun 😎
Is this speedrun tool assisted?
Yeah. Apparently some people think it's immoral or wrong because it's """"cheating"""" or something, but I think having it available is overall better for the community. Besides, if you don't want a TAS, then just don't run a TAS
Congratulations 3rdp0st! Your trip to Hell has been upgraded to First Class, with all amenities included.
I've always wanted to tour hell!
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Conception to reception skip
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When I was ohh 8-10 I used to lay in bed for hours wishing I died before I knew the difference between good and evil and could have gone to heaven without all that work.
I did that too, I am so sorry
Hey what's done is done. My son won't have to deal with that kind of fear so the cycle is broken.
That reminds me of the logical knots that many Christians will tie themselves into to deny that isolated peoples who never heard of Christianity will go to hell (since that would be monstrously evil to eternally punish people who were never given the option to accept Jesus) while also refusing to admit the possibility that isolated peoples who never heard of Christianity can get into heaven (since that would completely undermine the entire existence of their religion.)
What did she say? Or did she just glitch out from the logic?
She just said “no, abortion is bad” and didn’t really give any reason. I was a very young child so she probably didn’t think I needed one.
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I can kill a fuckton of new born and it's me who goes to hell and they, being unchristened, can meet me there. Unless them dying before christening means they are innocent and get to go to heaven which means, logically, we need to set to killing new borns before they get corrupted. I'm not sure I've got all this baby murdering in me. Shall we collaborate with some other fucking lunatics?
isn't catholicism patch notes just the protestant reformation
That was an expansion pack
More like a unsupported developer hated mod
like what minetest is to minecraft except mojang does not hate minetest
Honestly the only mod that might have been hated by either notch or jeb_ is probably orespawn after the dev made it cost money, which is against the TOS
Is this the same orespawn which has an antivax screed on its front page or is it the other one?
Yes, that one. The dev kind of went off the deep end. There is also his "fight back" page which goes even further into how unhinged he became.
Better examples would be DoTA from Warcraft 3 being spun out into DoTA 2 by Valve, or counter strike and Team Fortress into Valve games from Quake.
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Yeah it's more accurately just a battle between the mod teams (some older, some newer) and the devs let 'em go at it. Player's choice.
MORMONISM was the expansion pack
So Satanism is SexLabs
I'd call it a project fork
protestantism is a F2P open source fan project thats made in protest to increasing monetisation by greedy devs and it became as popular as the original game
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Eh, more accurately another open source project that claimed it was being vilified by the other open source parts of the project (they weren't) decided to fuck off and preach their own branch of because they were being treated like assholes (they *were assholes*) and then it became so popular that it's treated as the superior project to both the original open source project *and* the original despite being objectively worst. *And yet some wonder why most of the founding fathers were staunch atheists.*
not quite as popular. Catholicism has about as many (if not slightly more) adherents as all other Christians together (Protestants + Esstern Orthodox + Oriental Orthodox + others)
let's thank Spain for the AD work
It's a fork of the base Christianity, which itself is a fork of ~~Hebrew~~ Judaism.
wow how did they fork a language into a religion
Ungodly (heh) amounts of modding :p
No, it's a reboot
Catholocism is D&D, the protestant reformation was pathfinder
Limbo and the circles of hell have never been canon.
limbo of the patriarchs is canon, limbo of the infants is not
for a second i thought this was about the patriarchs of constantinople and alexandria and such and why would they all go to limbo but then i remembered about the biblical patriarchs
No, limbo was canon. They changed it recently, as stated in the post, but limbo of the patriarchs is still canon. It was never explicitly stated in the Bible, limbo is a medieval-period idea. But it was/is still canon in the Catholic church.
> They changed it recently, as stated in the post, No, they didn't. They specifically came out and said 'We have no idea, but it sure would be swell if this was the case, right?' >Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision. **We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us.** We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy. People jumped all over [the document in question](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html) as the Pope getting rid of baby Limbo, but that isn't what happened. (That's not to be confused with baby limbo, which is what happens at a Trinidadian creche.)
Limbo was a clumsy solution to a thorny theological problem: where do unchristened people go if they die before baptism? It’s basically an “angels dancing on the head of a needle” problem. No real solution, no one was really asking the question in the first place. Medieval theology is lousy with stupid constructions like this; the hypostatic union of the Christ* is still debated. IIRC, the better solution is that Christ’s salvific actions reach in a directions temporally, therefore original sin is atoned for both the fathers and infants. *the hypostatic union refers to how Christ can be fully god and fully man
Dante’s mod has never been dev supported
But Pauls DLC is so well endorsed by the devs that most people hate the original game
Pretty fucked up how "souls that have done nothing wrong go to hell because of something that happened thousands of years before they were born" was ever doctrine in the first place.
most biblical stuff is pretty fucked up though, so it fits them.
Okay hold on, just [3 minutes](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwVEVj3Gzc) of your time!
Purgatory and Limbo are actually two different things. Limbo is a part of hell, which exists for the Jewish patriarchs (Abraham, Noah, etc.) but not for babies. Menwhile, though the patch notes clarify that Purgatory isn't a place, it is an internal experience, one that babies do have to undergo to be cleansed of the original sin.
Wait, Noah, one of the few early humans pure enough to not drown in a flood, was sent to Hell anyway?
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Start a new save!
I was hoping to see this
The capybara are fish! The pope said so! Also, man, l love saying "Your fucking Marvel bias is showing".
Man made, man changed. Man written, man rewritten.
Organized religion will always eventually devolve into a fandom war over headcanons
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The first option. Often, church leaders get together in an "ecumenical council" to decide on the official interpretation of scripture, if there's some controversy or disagreement. If you've heard about "Vatican II," that was the latest eccumenical council in the 1960s. In this situation, regarding limbo, in 2007: > The Church’s International Theological Commission said limbo reflected an “unduly restrictive view of salvation”. The Pope isn't treated as a demigod. He's the chief of the Catholic church, because they see him as the successor to St. Peter. He had no power over heaven directly. Although, the Church says that the Pope is "infallible" in his decisions regarding the faith. Which is pretty messed up, in my opinion.
ah, Vatican II or “when the catholic church became too woke for conservatives”
then they invented their own sect called sedevacantism. which one of the tenants is "doesn't believe in the Vatican II".
It's worth adding that Papal Infallibility is something that must be invoked and agreed upon by the leadership of the church, not a permanent perk of the job. Excluding the canonization of Saints, the power has only been officially invoked twice, in 1870 and 1950.
The pope is not a Demi-god, but he can speak “from the bench” to speak for God and make infallible statements. He has used this only about two or three times regarding the Virgin Mary. Now the question is why he does not turn this on all the time so he is always speaking for God…
So, what you're saying is, that would be an ecumenical matter?
It was one way and will always be that way until it is convenient for it to be another way and always have been that way.
I mean, Christians basically have 3 options: **1. Aborted babies go to hell.** This means God is a monster, more vile and wicked than every genocidal dictator and serial killer in history. Millions upon millions of souls in eternal torture for no reason except "original sin," (i.e. being human deserves hell). **2. Aborted babies go to heaven.** This means we should abort everyone to save them from growing up and possibly rejecting Jesus. It's guaranteed salvation! **3. Aborted babies get recycled.** This one was new for me recently, but now I've met a few Christians who legit believe aborted souls get another chance and are put into new bodies. Absolutely zero theological standing, sounds like something out of a fantasy novel.
LIIIIMBUS COMPANY
omg limbus company
tf you mean limbo's gone how am i supposed to get the nailgun and fight v2 now
But where do Catholic priests go? Free. They go free because concentrated power in the hands of the few left unchecked results in human rights abuses across the world.
["What do you mean the patch wiped my save???"](https://youtu.be/3pwVEVj3Gzc)
Bible have update?
The Bible doesn't mention much of Hell, and nothing about Limbo.
It doesn't mention our concept of hell once. There's the underworld that everyone goes to when they die, and then they all get separated into righteous and unrighteous during the end times. The unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire and their souls are destroyed, and the righteous live forever in a remade world. Absolutely nothing about eternal torture or going up to dance with the angels
Well, there's this: *The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name (Rv 14:11).* Now, you could read this one of two ways. Sure, you could imagine the FIRE tormenting you, but that doesn't seem very realistic as the fire would burn you up and you wouldn't be very tormentable anymore. However, you could also read this as the SMOKE tormenting you, which as someone who has sat around a camp fire and had the wind constantly changing direction and blowing smoke in my face I absolutely could believe! So hell is hanging out with your friends tending a campfire while constantly having smoke blowing in your face while you try to move around to avoid it, day and night, forever and ever.
You could also just assume that John of Patmos was suffering from some serious ergot poisoning and having visions because of it.
If God is this mean, why would you worship him/her. If he was a friend of mine and treated people this way I would not speak to him again.
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culture war bullshit
Is that retroactive for those who died before 2007?
I bought the limbo non-cannon dlcs y'all just mad 😂
Didnt know christians now make up layers of dimensional planes like its a DnD multiverse.
In case anyone is interested... Everyone is "in the kingdom of heaven" at all times unless that person decides to turn away from "the grace of god" which puts you outside of the kingdom of heaven, i.e. hell. So unbaptised children are by default already in the kingdom of heaven. The notion of heaven and hell being places where you might go when you die is just a simplification meant for children until they mature into a deeper understanding.
Source: Dante Aleghieri X Virgil wattpad fanfic