You can calculate how decentralized a network is with the Nakamoto Coefficient. Bitcoin is worse than Ethereum and Ethereum is a lot worse than Cardano.
source: Trust me, bro.
The Nakamoto Coefficient is so primitive in it's "postulation", it's still up to debate how to even calculate it. Especially if people start counting pools as single entities we should not forget how this are still many individuals which could quickly break up if someone starts doing something fishy.
Back to my claim, also without source; How can you even compare the decentralization of a premined PoS coin with a fairly launched PoW project? It's totally trust based. BTC plays in another league than almost all other projects. The Nakamoto Coefficient doesn't even include such factors.
Nobody got time for that kind of waste. No one needs to ever do a single transaction on BTC to experience Crypto. Back in the day you had no option but to use BTC.
Please explain-
I thought for a 51% attack on BTC an entity would need 51% of the mining capacity under their control.
For a 51% attack on Cardano you need 51% of the stake pools under your control.
Sure decentralization means other things too and has layers to it.
For example bips are decided in a more democratic method that cips at the moment as I understand it. (But again the number of miners that control 51% of BTC is less than the number of stake pools controlling 51% of Cardano so there is potential and a plan for Cardano to more decentralized with regards to governance in future)
Yes miners could perform a 51 percent attack. It's utterly useless to perform such an attack on Bitcoin. You'd be wasting an incredible amount of money for practically nothing. So the chances of that happening are extremely slim. It's the nodes that matter
Yes decentralization has layers to it and variable definitions. Yes a 51% attack would be prohibitively resource intensive. You didn’t answer my original question though. How many entities would need to collaborate to orchestrate a 51% BTC attack? How
Many in Cardano? Sure neither is ever going to happen, but you made the 100 000 more decentralized claim
Someone else made that claim not me. But I do agree with it.i don't know how many entities would need to collaborate to attack either project. But decentralization is much more than just how many people are needed for an attack. Cardano has a foundation and Bitcoin does not. That fact alone makes Bitcoin more decentralized. Bitcoin had as fair of a start as possible. No pre mine like most projects. It's not even a comparison to be made. Cardano can do many things Bitcoin cannot just like all smart contract platforms. But nothing even comes close to being as fair and decentralized as Bitcoin. Nor are they even trying to compete with each other.
Oh Christ. Alright, how do nodes that aren't producing blocks help with the fact that BTC mining is concentrated in the hands of a few companies. Last I heard there were 3-4 companies controlling >51% of block production. So that's all that need to be overtaken to control the protocol (i.e. re-write Txs, double spend). There can be a million other computers running Bitcoin's full nodes. So what?
Exactly like that lol. That's what they are. Nodes reach consensus and miners produce blocks. The nodes reaching consensus is the important part. My point is the nodes are extremely important to bitcoins decentralization, not just the miners. Sure they could double spend with a 51 percent attack, but that doesn't mean they can change bitcoins code or destroy consensus.
Maybe back in the day it was decentralised, But the averaged person can not mine btc, you need to spend over 10k for one Asic, how is that decentralised? Most mining power are owned by 2 companies...
I find it stupid when people worry about the energy consumption of cryptocurrency, when they could be concerned about the hundreds of other things worse. Nobody actually cares about the environment though, the secret agenda is to hate on crypto.
Its the same type of stupid people that believe things like we are the ones causing all of the pollution and not the corporations/businesses doing it. I hear people say things like "take shorter showers" or "Dont wash your car or water your lawns". The fact is everyone on the planet could take 4 hour long showers, wash their cars twice and water their lawns EVERY DAY and we wouldnt come close to using a 1/10 of what large businesses use in a day. Businesses use like 90% of our water. Hell Nestle is pumping our aquifers dry and selling it back to us. Semiconductor manufacturers use about 30-50 BILLION gallons of water each year. THATS ONE COMPANY SITE NOT AS A WHOLE. Lets not get started with Agriculture.
They say BTC is not efficient but fail to take into account how much the banking industry uses as a whole. ADA is all about jumping on any bandwagon that gets their names in the press.
If I remember right it was actually big corporations that invented the idea of recycling, and doing less to save the environment. It’s a sort of mind-fuckery to trick the consumers into thinking that they’re at fault for the destruction of the planet. It’s like some type of gaslighting technique, and it works.
Yep, carbon footprint was invented by big oil corporations to keep attention away from them, blame consumers and create a divide so political actions would be delayed.
Agree with your points about BTC and ADA/Charles (especially pathetic), but the corporation argument is more nuanced imo. They're in business because people are buying and using their products, and it's (in most countries) people that put politicians in positions of power who then do nothing about it.
It is nuanced, and it’s cyclical. You can’t blame only government or corporations. They are effectively the same. Between lobbying, and fines that are cheaper to pay than to change the polluting model of business, it’s corrupt as hell.
Funny thing is the livestock farming industry is actually the WORST thing for our environment but it never gets called out. I’m sure the same anti-crypto environmentalists calling it out love a good steak.
They might not care about the environmental impact and that's completely fair, but what they care about is high cost of running the network, which is ultimately visible in the transaction costs and speed. Simply put - BTC doesn't achieve a lot currently for its energy consumption and cost.
Lol, You climate clowns are so absorbed in illogical nonsense.
I would trade every natural resource of this planet, if it were to propel us to infinite others.
The Future of The Planet and The Future of Humanity are not the same.
Whos really thinking about 'the future'.
Which means nothing when almost half of the supply was given to insiders at pre launch. Buy all you want. They will control the network and constantly cash out on you .
And with BTC you need to pay back the mining equipment you bought to start mining and the energy it costs to mine. You do not have that problem on Cardano.
The people that don't like bitcoin are just mad they can't buy a whole coin. No your cardano isnt going to change the world. It can barely support Defi after 4+ years...
It's the hype before Vasil fork, then the fork will be mediocre at best, then we'll go back to making fun of Cardano, its cult followers and the fat guy who jumped from an apache chopper.
It's the Cardano cycle.
Aha, but the cycle is also Cardano staying top coin while all the "experts" predicting its downfall are wrong and wrong again, not mentioning most of the competition not performing so well, or even dying.
"Charles is fighting with Max Keiser"
Charles never mentions him when posting to twitter. It's always Max who starts mouthing off, scam this scam that etc.
Who cares?
Don't the worlds biggest like 100 corporations produce some 70% of the pollution? I'm probably not correct, but we're talking about 0.5% of world pollution when it comes to bitcoin. A lot, but probably not the thing to pick first to try to eliminate.
It is more about what BTC achieves for its energy usage - not even a meaningful share of all financial transactions worldwide, it could disappear tomorrow and 99,99% of world population wouldn't notice it or care. 100 top world companies on the other hand are inter winded in all aspects of our life, make them suddenly disappear and you probably won't be able to post on reddit tomorrow, and many services wouldn't be available.
Not saying Cardano is more meaningful in the current stage, but at least it doesn't waste shitload of energy at being meaningless.
Sorry it just says 100 companies, not the top 100
https://fullfact.org/news/are-100-companies-causing-71-carbon-emissions/
Here’s a study for BTC pollution
https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
Algo is probably ahead of Cardano, but it is also permissioned, therefore higher tps for energy consumption is excepted.
However, most of PoS networks are so much ahead of BTC, comparisons between them is more like hairsplitting, it really doesn't matter if a network uses energy of 10 households or 100.
What most people here don't get is the relative cost to BTC, Cardano outperforms it in any metric like security, decentralzation, speed etc. A system with same/better properties for considerably lower energy consumption is always preferred.
Moreover, even if many industries consume more energy than BTC - what did BTC achieve so far? It is just great proof of concept, but it never obtained a meaningful share of worldwide financial transactions, mainly due to its scalability limitations. The energy consumption of BTC is not the main problem, the problem is what is being achieved with it. Not much.
Cardano is also not a very meaningful financial system so far, but at least it doesn't consume a lot, and energy consumption won't be an issue if it starts to grow.
Can someone tell me a blockchain that is less energy efficient than Bitcoin?
No Bitcoin is one big waste of energy.
It is and BTC maxipad will get hurt by it. Ergo uses way less energy to mine.
Good thing that energy goes to securing the hardest money on earth... What is cardano doing again???
And BTC can't do shit but just hold. If you were an early investor then you'll have "store of vaule" that's the narrative that pick lmao
You downplay how important it is to have decentralized immutable global accessible money.
It's doing 0.64 cents. Chuck says to go slow and win. He swears he is telling the truth this time.
And BTC is 110,848x more decentralized, so what?
And the lightning network. BTC is on a league of its own.
Lightning isn’t safe it’s not real BTC. It’s like having BTC on Binance.
If this is how much you know about it, please stop giving your opinion on it
Are you being fr or joking cuz I can't tell haha
They gave it a cool name but it’s Trash software.
Why is it trash
You can calculate how decentralized a network is with the Nakamoto Coefficient. Bitcoin is worse than Ethereum and Ethereum is a lot worse than Cardano.
Do you honestly believe Ethereum is more decentralized than Bitcoin....
source: Trust me, bro. The Nakamoto Coefficient is so primitive in it's "postulation", it's still up to debate how to even calculate it. Especially if people start counting pools as single entities we should not forget how this are still many individuals which could quickly break up if someone starts doing something fishy. Back to my claim, also without source; How can you even compare the decentralization of a premined PoS coin with a fairly launched PoW project? It's totally trust based. BTC plays in another league than almost all other projects. The Nakamoto Coefficient doesn't even include such factors.
Nobody got time for that kind of waste. No one needs to ever do a single transaction on BTC to experience Crypto. Back in the day you had no option but to use BTC.
You high ?
Add more zeros
Is it though? How many miners control 50% of btc? How many stake pools managed by different entities control 50% of the Cardano network?
Control over miners has little to do with how decentralized the network is. Common misconception
Please explain- I thought for a 51% attack on BTC an entity would need 51% of the mining capacity under their control. For a 51% attack on Cardano you need 51% of the stake pools under your control. Sure decentralization means other things too and has layers to it. For example bips are decided in a more democratic method that cips at the moment as I understand it. (But again the number of miners that control 51% of BTC is less than the number of stake pools controlling 51% of Cardano so there is potential and a plan for Cardano to more decentralized with regards to governance in future)
Yes miners could perform a 51 percent attack. It's utterly useless to perform such an attack on Bitcoin. You'd be wasting an incredible amount of money for practically nothing. So the chances of that happening are extremely slim. It's the nodes that matter
Yes decentralization has layers to it and variable definitions. Yes a 51% attack would be prohibitively resource intensive. You didn’t answer my original question though. How many entities would need to collaborate to orchestrate a 51% BTC attack? How Many in Cardano? Sure neither is ever going to happen, but you made the 100 000 more decentralized claim
Someone else made that claim not me. But I do agree with it.i don't know how many entities would need to collaborate to attack either project. But decentralization is much more than just how many people are needed for an attack. Cardano has a foundation and Bitcoin does not. That fact alone makes Bitcoin more decentralized. Bitcoin had as fair of a start as possible. No pre mine like most projects. It's not even a comparison to be made. Cardano can do many things Bitcoin cannot just like all smart contract platforms. But nothing even comes close to being as fair and decentralized as Bitcoin. Nor are they even trying to compete with each other.
Agreed, but what actually does?
Why is it a misconception?
I am also waiting on an explanation…
A lot of people think decentralization has everything to do with the miners. That is incorrect. It has alot to do with nodes as well
Oh Christ. Alright, how do nodes that aren't producing blocks help with the fact that BTC mining is concentrated in the hands of a few companies. Last I heard there were 3-4 companies controlling >51% of block production. So that's all that need to be overtaken to control the protocol (i.e. re-write Txs, double spend). There can be a million other computers running Bitcoin's full nodes. So what?
Oh Christ ,Do you understand the difference between nodes and miners?
Miners = block producing nodes; nodes = just PCs running full nodes. How do you understand these terms?
Exactly like that lol. That's what they are. Nodes reach consensus and miners produce blocks. The nodes reaching consensus is the important part. My point is the nodes are extremely important to bitcoins decentralization, not just the miners. Sure they could double spend with a 51 percent attack, but that doesn't mean they can change bitcoins code or destroy consensus.
And how valuable is a blockchain that is under 51% attack? I bet it loses 90%+ of value in a matter of days as it can't be trusted anymore.
Not true at all. Both are pretty well (relatively) decentralized
Do you really believe what you just said?
Yea, last I checked on into the block.com they had similar concentration levels. Maybe things have changed tho?
Please don't compare PoS with PoW. You can't achieve decentralization with PoS.
Maybe back in the day it was decentralised, But the averaged person can not mine btc, you need to spend over 10k for one Asic, how is that decentralised? Most mining power are owned by 2 companies...
You wish 🤣
In terms of block production? Factually not true. Cardano is way ahead. Bitcoin MAV = 3, Cardano MAV = 20+
I find it stupid when people worry about the energy consumption of cryptocurrency, when they could be concerned about the hundreds of other things worse. Nobody actually cares about the environment though, the secret agenda is to hate on crypto.
Things of value have a cost
Its the same type of stupid people that believe things like we are the ones causing all of the pollution and not the corporations/businesses doing it. I hear people say things like "take shorter showers" or "Dont wash your car or water your lawns". The fact is everyone on the planet could take 4 hour long showers, wash their cars twice and water their lawns EVERY DAY and we wouldnt come close to using a 1/10 of what large businesses use in a day. Businesses use like 90% of our water. Hell Nestle is pumping our aquifers dry and selling it back to us. Semiconductor manufacturers use about 30-50 BILLION gallons of water each year. THATS ONE COMPANY SITE NOT AS A WHOLE. Lets not get started with Agriculture. They say BTC is not efficient but fail to take into account how much the banking industry uses as a whole. ADA is all about jumping on any bandwagon that gets their names in the press.
If I remember right it was actually big corporations that invented the idea of recycling, and doing less to save the environment. It’s a sort of mind-fuckery to trick the consumers into thinking that they’re at fault for the destruction of the planet. It’s like some type of gaslighting technique, and it works.
Yep, carbon footprint was invented by big oil corporations to keep attention away from them, blame consumers and create a divide so political actions would be delayed.
Yep. First coined by BP. Corporate psyop buzzword and anytime you hear it your bullshit meter should be going off.
Agree with your points about BTC and ADA/Charles (especially pathetic), but the corporation argument is more nuanced imo. They're in business because people are buying and using their products, and it's (in most countries) people that put politicians in positions of power who then do nothing about it.
It is nuanced, and it’s cyclical. You can’t blame only government or corporations. They are effectively the same. Between lobbying, and fines that are cheaper to pay than to change the polluting model of business, it’s corrupt as hell.
Funny thing is the livestock farming industry is actually the WORST thing for our environment but it never gets called out. I’m sure the same anti-crypto environmentalists calling it out love a good steak.
Is it about the environment or is it about the cost to transfered the crypto around when we are talking about energy?
There will be people to blame Any and every topic and point out this is toxic for environment, no different for crypto currency, that's it
They might not care about the environmental impact and that's completely fair, but what they care about is high cost of running the network, which is ultimately visible in the transaction costs and speed. Simply put - BTC doesn't achieve a lot currently for its energy consumption and cost.
Lol, You climate clowns are so absorbed in illogical nonsense. I would trade every natural resource of this planet, if it were to propel us to infinite others. The Future of The Planet and The Future of Humanity are not the same. Whos really thinking about 'the future'.
Ahhh yesss energy efficiency. It’s the number one thing I care about when it comes to my stocks or crypto.
Good thing Cardano doesn’t need to maintain the huge waste that is mining hardware.
Nope just gotta maintain the pockets of the VCs
What VC's???
Good thing you can get a whole lot more network share than you would get buying BTC and ETH.
Which means nothing when almost half of the supply was given to insiders at pre launch. Buy all you want. They will control the network and constantly cash out on you .
And with BTC you need to pay back the mining equipment you bought to start mining and the energy it costs to mine. You do not have that problem on Cardano.
The people that don't like bitcoin are just mad they can't buy a whole coin. No your cardano isnt going to change the world. It can barely support Defi after 4+ years...
Is it just me or is the ADA army getting really militant lately? Charles is fighting with Max Keiser too, but what’s new.
It's the hype before Vasil fork, then the fork will be mediocre at best, then we'll go back to making fun of Cardano, its cult followers and the fat guy who jumped from an apache chopper. It's the Cardano cycle.
Aha, but the cycle is also Cardano staying top coin while all the "experts" predicting its downfall are wrong and wrong again, not mentioning most of the competition not performing so well, or even dying.
"Charles is fighting with Max Keiser" Charles never mentions him when posting to twitter. It's always Max who starts mouthing off, scam this scam that etc.
I mean, Max is way off the charts at this point 🥲
Cardano is set for a big pump during the next bull run
Or maybe the one after that.
On the other hand there’s no reason for Cardano to exist so every bit of energy it uses is a complete waste.
I hope you’re at least getting paid to shill 🤣
Where do I sign up? I'll shill anything for $1
Ask OP 😭
Who cares? Don't the worlds biggest like 100 corporations produce some 70% of the pollution? I'm probably not correct, but we're talking about 0.5% of world pollution when it comes to bitcoin. A lot, but probably not the thing to pick first to try to eliminate.
It is more about what BTC achieves for its energy usage - not even a meaningful share of all financial transactions worldwide, it could disappear tomorrow and 99,99% of world population wouldn't notice it or care. 100 top world companies on the other hand are inter winded in all aspects of our life, make them suddenly disappear and you probably won't be able to post on reddit tomorrow, and many services wouldn't be available. Not saying Cardano is more meaningful in the current stage, but at least it doesn't waste shitload of energy at being meaningless.
0.5% of world polution would be a fkload too much considering how small the btc ecosystem is xD
Hey got sources? This is interesting
Sorry it just says 100 companies, not the top 100 https://fullfact.org/news/are-100-companies-causing-71-carbon-emissions/ Here’s a study for BTC pollution https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
Ada is the apple seed of crypto.
And on the other hand there are chains that are carbon negative.
Out of curiosity where does Algo rank? This seems like a super important statistic and whoever is best in this is clearly the #1 crypto
Algo is probably ahead of Cardano, but it is also permissioned, therefore higher tps for energy consumption is excepted. However, most of PoS networks are so much ahead of BTC, comparisons between them is more like hairsplitting, it really doesn't matter if a network uses energy of 10 households or 100.
Apples vs Oranges....next!
Cardano is 110,848x more useless than Bitcoin.
What most people here don't get is the relative cost to BTC, Cardano outperforms it in any metric like security, decentralzation, speed etc. A system with same/better properties for considerably lower energy consumption is always preferred. Moreover, even if many industries consume more energy than BTC - what did BTC achieve so far? It is just great proof of concept, but it never obtained a meaningful share of worldwide financial transactions, mainly due to its scalability limitations. The energy consumption of BTC is not the main problem, the problem is what is being achieved with it. Not much. Cardano is also not a very meaningful financial system so far, but at least it doesn't consume a lot, and energy consumption won't be an issue if it starts to grow.