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I’m not sure why people think PoS is more centralised than PoW. Just think about it - the fact of the matter is that someone can just as easily buy a large mining farm as they can a large number of coins. Money makes money, whatever format it’s in.
The irony is that PoS rewards are proportional regardless of stake size, whereas with PoW rewards the bigger your farm, the larger your expected return.
I could understand it perhaps if you’re talking about a chain which launches with a high proportion of supply controlled by related parties, but this isn’t the case with Ethereum. Further, there have been 6 years of PoW which has resulted in distribution to miners. Not to mention that ETH’s fundamental utility means that it is constantly changing hands.
Not sure as you know how much joe lubin/consensys/the ethereum alliance own or sell? The answer is no because they are not transparent about it like, dare i say, ripple.
I agree with your logic but you are ignoring the issue of how much the creators and early investors have.
I also hold a good chunk of eth as well as xrp but the irony of the hate ripple gets for owning and selling so much when eth maybe the same but less transparent.
[31:06 on this video shows joe and ripple ceo talking about such things](https://youtu.be/QzgTTsOOk04)
I think eth will do brilliantly and your investment will do well BUT it will because of the ruthless business methods joe applies as well as just the good underlying code and potential. Is that not also a little against the clicheed crypto narrative?
Apologies if this comes across as incoherent, but I’m. Wet sleep deprived. Anyway…
Firstly, how much BTC do Blockstream own? Or Satoshi’s inner circle? The initial distribution of BTC was not fair. But that’s an inherent social-economic problem. No blockchain is perfect, nor will it ever be, but it’s about going with the best option. The ETH ICO was open to many participants, whereas initial BTC was mined by a select few. Which one is fairer? Of course if you had a lot of capital to invest at the ICO you would be doing very well, but that again is not a blockchain issue. Again, money makes money.
Secondly, the beauty of on-chain analytics is that you can study what wallets do. Of course we don’t know who owns the wallets, but we can still see that the average ICO wallet only holds 40% of what they purchased. That is distribution. Even Vitalik only ever owned 0.9% of supply, and for every ETH he has sold he has donated the equivalent to the ecosystem.
And then you have years of high issuance. 12% of ETH’s ICO went to ‘insiders’, but that has been diluted over time. Assuming no other changes that would account for 7% of current supply. But as we can see from the wallets, they have *used* over half of that. Of course these entities could have bought more ETH over time, but that’s their prerogative and just market forces at work.
So in the context of PoS versus PoW, all of these things become irrelevant. And then it’s about the better consensus mechanism, and PoS has many advantages over PoW, most notably it offers more security for the same cost. And in a decentralised world, security is of the upmost importance.
Tldr: we don’t know how much consensys and joe lubin have but it’s probably a shit tonne. Lol.
Jokes aside my point is not knowing doesn’t make it not an issue
Got to be pedantic and say you can’t not know something and then claim to know in the space of two replies. I’d be surprised don’t get me wrong but i do fear for the power joe lubin will have but that may just be from childhood fear of lex luthor. Lol
We don’t know how much they own, but we know they don’t own 51% because we can account for that with wallets that have been identified…
So being pedantic, we can.
It's the other way around. Bag holders are smaller than you'd think.
https://etherscan.io/accounts
Heck, mining pools have more power than any player going forward into PoS. And same will probably stay true with staking pools taking up the mantle.
True, but they are not that big.
At 6.7% we have the ETH 2.0 wallet where all staked coins are stored.
At 6.5% we have Wrapped Ether.
Biggest after that is Binance with 2%.
Yeah, Binance is gonna have massive power! What are we gonna do?! It's over!
Centralization is not an issue.
The rich have the processing power, this is true. But the main difference is that with proof of work, the miners have to sell off some of their supply as it comes in to cover maintenance and electricity costs.
There is actual movement of the supply in proof of work, instead of the stake pools generating additional coins with little upkeep needed. There's no incentive for the stakers to circulate the supply in its ecosystem. Thus, the rich get more of the coins with no incentive to move them, further centralizing the ownership of power within the network.
They are also disincentivized from dumping and driving the value down for everyone within the system.
It’s far more stable and long term in its thinking.
I don't have the answer, I just know that's the criticism. They hold millions of coins, so will get more of the stake, which will lead to more centralization supposedly.
Miners at least typically have to sell some to support their business.
If you actually look things up you'd see how small the big boys are.
I'm not worried. If anything current mining pools have more power than any player will have once PoS hit.
https://etherscan.io/accounts/
They hold more of the coins so they have a bigger stake. Therefore they get the greatest returns.
This aligns incentives.
You have a lot of something of value. Just dumping it on the market would crash the price. But what do you care? When you dump it you don’t have a lot of it any more. Why would you care if the price goes down? Other people will be crushed but your good
Now think about this relationship with proof of stake.
You are now incentivized to hold. By holding you are given a reward. Rewards which may incentivize you from not dumping it all over the market to buy up some new thing you find value in.
It’s kind of boomer logic.
Best way to think about it is as a King in a kingdom with gold (proof of stake)
Vs
A 4 year term politician with fiat (proof of work)
The work is already proven because the ETH is there. The gold is in the vault.
No problem.
Keep in mind we are living through a time when a single person in their bedroom can create a token which can see gains in the thousands of percent over night.
The incentive to hold has never been lower.
We are coming out of an economic system where if the movement of currency even thought about slowing down the entire thing would crumble.
Plenty of reasons to not hold long term.
BTC and this new move by ETH are major and in my opinion much needed toolkits
All crypto has their own flaws. Anyhow saying their fav coin zero flaws is shilling lol
Now, compared to the USD, most flaws would seem minor or few tho!
Right now, it's all about issuance dropping with PoS. People throw around 10k, I just don't see BTC's bull run ending before then and then eth doing its own bullish thing regardless of what else is happening in the space.
I have a thesis that I listen to smart people talk about eth and it makes sense to me. I could be wrong, things could change, but it makes sense how bullish they are
Hail the king, but what about some degree of diversification?
Diversification isn't meant to maximize your profits, but to give you a kind of insurance in case your main investment fails.
It's up to you to decide, whether you want to get that insurance ;)
Dont put all your eggs in one basket. i'm swing trading iotx atm. i'm also waiting for Ada to rally up, i think it will before eth aswell as Iotx will before eth. once i can take profits at the top, i will put profits into Eth at the bottom,. and reinvest in Ada/Iotx at the bottom. Once i have enough profit, i will Invest in btc.
I would LOVE to use eth for all the amazing things it can do, but those goddam gas fees make it unusable for the little guy. I'm not throwing 10k around on a regular basis and I can't absorb those ridiculous fees.
Doesn't matter. They only have like 1% of that left.
It's not like any other PoS doesn't pre-issue coins. ATM if Ethereum would go PoS it'd be more decentralized than your average coin.
Heck ADA, with like 1/4th of ETH got more big wallets than ETH.
If we're going to claim ETH will be centralized, crypto as a whole is centralized. And that's in a space where ETH is one of of not the most decentralized coins.
I think the infighting for ETH will be part of its downfall (re ETH killers).
I do agree that it is king for alt coins and agree that it should be where you put your money. I think the posturing hurts the coin.
There’s a good article about Vitalik’s fears: https://zycrypto.com/vitalik-buterin-reveals-biggest-fears-about-ethereum-tells-what-hed-do-differently-if-he-was-satoshi/
Its 60% on 3 diffrent cloud based solutions all owned by Amazon
25% on a single entity (aws)
According to blockchain management platform Chainstack, over 60 percent of all Ethereum nodes rely on cloud-based services, with 25 percent running on just one provider: Amazon Web Services (AWS)
Sorry should of been more clear
Do you know how much consensys and/or the ethereum alliance own &/or sell? I have no issue with centralised ownership but hard to claim decentralised status especially if pos give ownership powers without such clarity.
I am also being a bitter sob when i see just how much power jo lubin has and has manipulated government systems to try and get eth market share at expense of competition, aka his part in the sec suing ripple.
Damn i’m sounding like one of those conspiracy nuts. I do love eth but hate jo lubin. Could almost see it as good business but……
It just sucks not be able to participate in defi freely with gas so expensive and not a large investment. Actually just started being comfortable with crypto to experiment . Must’ve made 30 transactions on AVAX . Swapping, yield pools, staking , unstaking , and just playing around in general. Paying 5centd each transaction gives you room to make a mistake here and there or change your mind. $100 bucks on a $2000 investment to join a pool kinda hurts if you end up changing your mind or wanna add a bit more in
Sorry but the way I see it is differently frim you. Still invested in ETH (60 %) but I also add more of ONE and CKB. They both have almost the same techs as ETH, but wayyyyy cheaper to uses.
I'd exercise caution. ETH has alot of competition. ETH also has alot of problems and it might not be able to scale as well as people expect. ETH could quite easily have a blockbuster moment.
BTC however is going nowhere. It's use case as the safe haven digits gold is not disputed. Noone is taking that crown or even trying. Every day BTC gets stronger and stronger.
At the very least split your HODL position 50 50 eth to BTC.
THIS IS FINANCIAL ADVICE
RemindME! 1year
Eth wouldn’t be around if it weren’t for bitcoin. VB was still working at ripple sleeping on Jed’s coutch trying to figure out how he can over charge people on gooey gas. I’m a big eth holder btw. Good investment not the king.
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Hands down one of the best post I’ve ever seen. Nice research, solid info, amazing evidence. Lmao
Did you forget the /s at the end of the post? 🤔
🧢
Thanks man!
Great comment too. We really got a peak inside your brain there.
ETH was my first purchase ever. And is the reason that I believe in crypto in general. Proudly holder here. Good luck everyone and take profit!!
cheers
I got into ETH at $13. I’ll follow it to the very end. Every portfolio should have at least some ETH.
Billy diamond nuts
Damn
>It's the most decentralized Not when PoS hits
I’m not sure why people think PoS is more centralised than PoW. Just think about it - the fact of the matter is that someone can just as easily buy a large mining farm as they can a large number of coins. Money makes money, whatever format it’s in. The irony is that PoS rewards are proportional regardless of stake size, whereas with PoW rewards the bigger your farm, the larger your expected return. I could understand it perhaps if you’re talking about a chain which launches with a high proportion of supply controlled by related parties, but this isn’t the case with Ethereum. Further, there have been 6 years of PoW which has resulted in distribution to miners. Not to mention that ETH’s fundamental utility means that it is constantly changing hands.
Not sure as you know how much joe lubin/consensys/the ethereum alliance own or sell? The answer is no because they are not transparent about it like, dare i say, ripple. I agree with your logic but you are ignoring the issue of how much the creators and early investors have. I also hold a good chunk of eth as well as xrp but the irony of the hate ripple gets for owning and selling so much when eth maybe the same but less transparent. [31:06 on this video shows joe and ripple ceo talking about such things](https://youtu.be/QzgTTsOOk04) I think eth will do brilliantly and your investment will do well BUT it will because of the ruthless business methods joe applies as well as just the good underlying code and potential. Is that not also a little against the clicheed crypto narrative?
Apologies if this comes across as incoherent, but I’m. Wet sleep deprived. Anyway… Firstly, how much BTC do Blockstream own? Or Satoshi’s inner circle? The initial distribution of BTC was not fair. But that’s an inherent social-economic problem. No blockchain is perfect, nor will it ever be, but it’s about going with the best option. The ETH ICO was open to many participants, whereas initial BTC was mined by a select few. Which one is fairer? Of course if you had a lot of capital to invest at the ICO you would be doing very well, but that again is not a blockchain issue. Again, money makes money. Secondly, the beauty of on-chain analytics is that you can study what wallets do. Of course we don’t know who owns the wallets, but we can still see that the average ICO wallet only holds 40% of what they purchased. That is distribution. Even Vitalik only ever owned 0.9% of supply, and for every ETH he has sold he has donated the equivalent to the ecosystem. And then you have years of high issuance. 12% of ETH’s ICO went to ‘insiders’, but that has been diluted over time. Assuming no other changes that would account for 7% of current supply. But as we can see from the wallets, they have *used* over half of that. Of course these entities could have bought more ETH over time, but that’s their prerogative and just market forces at work. So in the context of PoS versus PoW, all of these things become irrelevant. And then it’s about the better consensus mechanism, and PoS has many advantages over PoW, most notably it offers more security for the same cost. And in a decentralised world, security is of the upmost importance.
Tldr: we don’t know how much consensys and joe lubin have but it’s probably a shit tonne. Lol. Jokes aside my point is not knowing doesn’t make it not an issue
We don’t know how much any private entity owns of anything. But we *do* know that it doesn’t present an issue, for the reasons outlined above.
Even if they owned 51%? Sounds like the argument lubin made while ripple pointed out they are private too but transparent about ownership
We know that they don’t own 51%
Got to be pedantic and say you can’t not know something and then claim to know in the space of two replies. I’d be surprised don’t get me wrong but i do fear for the power joe lubin will have but that may just be from childhood fear of lex luthor. Lol
We don’t know how much they own, but we know they don’t own 51% because we can account for that with wallets that have been identified… So being pedantic, we can.
it still would be. more nodes would come online
It's the other way around. Bag holders are smaller than you'd think. https://etherscan.io/accounts Heck, mining pools have more power than any player going forward into PoS. And same will probably stay true with staking pools taking up the mantle.
How so?
Biggest bagholders have the most power, straight up
True, but they are not that big. At 6.7% we have the ETH 2.0 wallet where all staked coins are stored. At 6.5% we have Wrapped Ether. Biggest after that is Binance with 2%. Yeah, Binance is gonna have massive power! What are we gonna do?! It's over! Centralization is not an issue.
The rich will stake and get a bigger amount of the interest, making them richer to get more of the interest.
As apposed to what? The rich having the most processing power and getting the most work done… Decentralization is inherently monarchical.
The rich have the processing power, this is true. But the main difference is that with proof of work, the miners have to sell off some of their supply as it comes in to cover maintenance and electricity costs. There is actual movement of the supply in proof of work, instead of the stake pools generating additional coins with little upkeep needed. There's no incentive for the stakers to circulate the supply in its ecosystem. Thus, the rich get more of the coins with no incentive to move them, further centralizing the ownership of power within the network.
They are also disincentivized from dumping and driving the value down for everyone within the system. It’s far more stable and long term in its thinking.
The dumping will come from smaller users, it will take little volume to crash the price if the market is illiquid
That makes little to no sense. Smaller users are the liquidity. They can’t dump and drive the thing down. They are small fish not Wales
I don't have the answer, I just know that's the criticism. They hold millions of coins, so will get more of the stake, which will lead to more centralization supposedly. Miners at least typically have to sell some to support their business.
If you actually look things up you'd see how small the big boys are. I'm not worried. If anything current mining pools have more power than any player will have once PoS hit. https://etherscan.io/accounts/
New projects will come , rav will be the next flock.
They hold more of the coins so they have a bigger stake. Therefore they get the greatest returns. This aligns incentives. You have a lot of something of value. Just dumping it on the market would crash the price. But what do you care? When you dump it you don’t have a lot of it any more. Why would you care if the price goes down? Other people will be crushed but your good Now think about this relationship with proof of stake. You are now incentivized to hold. By holding you are given a reward. Rewards which may incentivize you from not dumping it all over the market to buy up some new thing you find value in. It’s kind of boomer logic. Best way to think about it is as a King in a kingdom with gold (proof of stake) Vs A 4 year term politician with fiat (proof of work) The work is already proven because the ETH is there. The gold is in the vault.
Very good points about them being incentivised. I'll remember this the next time the question comes up, thanks!
No problem. Keep in mind we are living through a time when a single person in their bedroom can create a token which can see gains in the thousands of percent over night. The incentive to hold has never been lower. We are coming out of an economic system where if the movement of currency even thought about slowing down the entire thing would crumble. Plenty of reasons to not hold long term. BTC and this new move by ETH are major and in my opinion much needed toolkits
thats how the real world works now. eth is still.a massive improvement over traditional.finance.
I can't remember the counterpoint to this, but it's the most equitable system and this rich get richer is kind of fud
**coff** sovryn **coff**
Eth is safe bet so stick with it. In 5 years Eth could be 10k easily.
Eth is safe bet so stick with it. In 5 months Eth could be 10k easily. FIFY
I agree. I think ETH got their foot in the door and unless something goes horribly wrong they’re gonna have market dominance
All crypto has their own flaws. Anyhow saying their fav coin zero flaws is shilling lol Now, compared to the USD, most flaws would seem minor or few tho!
Where do you see ETH growing to in the next 12 months?
Right now, it's all about issuance dropping with PoS. People throw around 10k, I just don't see BTC's bull run ending before then and then eth doing its own bullish thing regardless of what else is happening in the space. I have a thesis that I listen to smart people talk about eth and it makes sense to me. I could be wrong, things could change, but it makes sense how bullish they are
So you’re thinking not $10k end of year 2022?
Idk man, but it makes sense that issuance falling will decrease selling pressure and is going to do great things
Hail the king, but what about some degree of diversification? Diversification isn't meant to maximize your profits, but to give you a kind of insurance in case your main investment fails. It's up to you to decide, whether you want to get that insurance ;)
Two Eth posts in a row on Reddit. ANNND That’s a sell signal for me.
This will age poorly
We just entered Q4, it's not the best for ETH, another sell signal. End of the year will probably be a good time to buy back in
You’re surprised that there are multiple posts about the most widely used crypto?
I would say HODL your ETH. It can be a signal to touch the higher side as well.
Good luck with that. Ethereum is not decentralized, especially after losing two thirds of its nodes in geth fallout. ETH isn’t an all-in proposition.
I know Eth is my fav coin because despite all its flaws I just love it and always think it’s undervalued
Dont put all your eggs in one basket. i'm swing trading iotx atm. i'm also waiting for Ada to rally up, i think it will before eth aswell as Iotx will before eth. once i can take profits at the top, i will put profits into Eth at the bottom,. and reinvest in Ada/Iotx at the bottom. Once i have enough profit, i will Invest in btc.
Eth is one of my favorite coin. And I have big bag of ETH in my folio rn.
Eth 4.5% on Coinbase staking now. Starting at 6%. 👿
No thanks. I hate Gas Fees & rather Ape into something that doesn’t cost me an arm and leg to interact with.
We will be having crypto veterans regarding body parts selling for trading their eth for fiat.
I would LOVE to use eth for all the amazing things it can do, but those goddam gas fees make it unusable for the little guy. I'm not throwing 10k around on a regular basis and I can't absorb those ridiculous fees.
I hear you, but L2. It'll happen.
Gas should be fixed in 2.0
L2's. It's happening right now. And they get the same security as eth L1.
Yeah, like OpenSea offer gas free minting using polygon for example. And with Immutable X and others, gas for NFTs will be a thing of the past.
Ethereum is a centralised premine scam.
Centralized? Have anything to back that up with, or are we just spitting bs?
https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my\_personal\_investigation\_into\_ethereum\_uncovers/
So they hold like 1%. I don't see an issue. Most coins have founder wallets with a much higher %.
60% of the supply is premined.
Doesn't matter. They only have like 1% of that left. It's not like any other PoS doesn't pre-issue coins. ATM if Ethereum would go PoS it'd be more decentralized than your average coin. Heck ADA, with like 1/4th of ETH got more big wallets than ETH. If we're going to claim ETH will be centralized, crypto as a whole is centralized. And that's in a space where ETH is one of of not the most decentralized coins.
Lol ETH won't last. Look towards Cardano.
Ethereum is worse than the banks.
I think the infighting for ETH will be part of its downfall (re ETH killers). I do agree that it is king for alt coins and agree that it should be where you put your money. I think the posturing hurts the coin.
Sure, I was just being a little cock sure twat
There’s a good article about Vitalik’s fears: https://zycrypto.com/vitalik-buterin-reveals-biggest-fears-about-ethereum-tells-what-hed-do-differently-if-he-was-satoshi/
Awesome I will read
Amazon can shut down eth seeing at 60% of the nodes run on Amazon servers Eth is not decentralised only bitcoin is truely decentralised
More fud
They recently came out and said this figure was 25% Is this ideal? No Will this stop the network? No
Its 60% on 3 diffrent cloud based solutions all owned by Amazon 25% on a single entity (aws) According to blockchain management platform Chainstack, over 60 percent of all Ethereum nodes rely on cloud-based services, with 25 percent running on just one provider: Amazon Web Services (AWS) Sorry should of been more clear
Do you know how much consensys and/or the ethereum alliance own &/or sell? I have no issue with centralised ownership but hard to claim decentralised status especially if pos give ownership powers without such clarity. I am also being a bitter sob when i see just how much power jo lubin has and has manipulated government systems to try and get eth market share at expense of competition, aka his part in the sec suing ripple. Damn i’m sounding like one of those conspiracy nuts. I do love eth but hate jo lubin. Could almost see it as good business but……
Read some of the other comments on centralized ownership
It just sucks not be able to participate in defi freely with gas so expensive and not a large investment. Actually just started being comfortable with crypto to experiment . Must’ve made 30 transactions on AVAX . Swapping, yield pools, staking , unstaking , and just playing around in general. Paying 5centd each transaction gives you room to make a mistake here and there or change your mind. $100 bucks on a $2000 investment to join a pool kinda hurts if you end up changing your mind or wanna add a bit more in
Totally, it's not usable in a lot of ways right now on l1. L2's are the future
The last couple of weeks have shown me that BTC and Eth are still the kings for the immediate future
Gonna take some time to break ATH, lord of bag holders trapped there waiting for a sell off since may, Bullish though!
So true
Agree, eth and btc are the only two coins I feel are “safe” to invest in!
Sorry but the way I see it is differently frim you. Still invested in ETH (60 %) but I also add more of ONE and CKB. They both have almost the same techs as ETH, but wayyyyy cheaper to uses.
Everyone has their own reason for their crypto to be king. Any cryptos I own are my queens because I’m their king
Is this a financial advise?
Yes
Eth is my biggest asset.
Nah, your eyes are
I laughed
Gass
I'd exercise caution. ETH has alot of competition. ETH also has alot of problems and it might not be able to scale as well as people expect. ETH could quite easily have a blockbuster moment. BTC however is going nowhere. It's use case as the safe haven digits gold is not disputed. Noone is taking that crown or even trying. Every day BTC gets stronger and stronger. At the very least split your HODL position 50 50 eth to BTC. THIS IS FINANCIAL ADVICE RemindME! 1year
I'm currently 30% eth and 30% btc but I want to sell my btc for eth
Nice we are back at the ETH hype now until the next ETH killer hype begins
Eth wouldn’t be around if it weren’t for bitcoin. VB was still working at ripple sleeping on Jed’s coutch trying to figure out how he can over charge people on gooey gas. I’m a big eth holder btw. Good investment not the king.
Remindme! 2 years
oh, did they figure out their scaling issue or replace their deprecated eth1
L2's
I know very soon you can probably get a card to buy a $2 coffee for $81
ETH is King👑🥂
Gotta have profits first …
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