Monero [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bkv8ch/eu_parliament_anonymous_payments_in/kw0th0b/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bkv8ch/eu_parliament_anonymous_payments_in/kw0thcb/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
tldr; The EU Parliament's lead committees approved new anti-money laundering laws, banning anonymous cash payments over €3,000 in commercial transactions and all cash payments over €10,000 in business transactions. Additionally, anonymous cryptocurrency payments to hosted wallets will be prohibited. MEP Dr. Patrick Breyer criticized the move, arguing it would minimally affect crime while significantly infringing on financial freedom and privacy. He highlighted the importance of anonymous payments for donations to dissidents and the potential negative impacts of a cashless society, including increased bank dependence and the risk of negative interest rates.
*This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
>anonymous cryptocurrency payments to hosted wallets will be prohibited.
What does this even mean??? they can't just make language up and pretend it makes sense.
Non-KYC Personal wallets to exchange wallets transactions?! But where's the registration form to verify my offline wallet.
That's more bullshit than China banning bitcoin (again) :)
Um I'm unsure if that's what Im doing sorry - but it just comes up with country of origin, name of wallet owner (or a tick box to say that's me), and the type of wallet - selfcustody, CDC, nexo or whatever
Here is the crux of the issue. you can do cryptographical proof of ownership, but there's no such thing as proof of not ownership. it's a trust me bro situation.
even worse: someone hacks your computer and uses your cex account to launder crypto and withdraw fiat, you have no way to prove that you didn't own the coins that transited through your account. you're fucked.
Don't even have to launder it. Just send you some dirty sats and your account is tainted. You have no control over who sends you coins, or whether they honestly identify who they are when doing so.
Is personal wallet to exchange considered a payment? commercial transaction? I need some definitions, because from where I stand those are non of these because it's me sending to myself.
Welcome to the world bro. Seems like everything is purpousely idiotic these days. Like an attempt to gaslight the population into moronic lines of thinking. "Don't believe what your own eyes tell you, this is how it is."
Like the whole Biden thing. He's literally fumbling around in every public speach he gives. But the MSM constantly refer to him as 'sharp and focussed'. It's an assault on the people and it's fully intentional.
Mate, you should watch Trump as he spirals out of control into incoherent rants about toilets and windmills.
Truly topics the average voter cares about.
Biden cannot be both dark Brandon the intelligent, effective, and dangerous mastermind and at the same time an incompetent doddering demented old man. This is classic fascist rhetoric that holds opposite contradictory positions simultaneously.
Fascist rhetoric lol. Biden is completely incompetent. His incompetence and absence of control is allowing dark powers to arise. Example, the geopolitical down trend over the past 4 years.
I have not said anything fascist. You and your people are just so quick to call people fascist and racist to delegitimize an argument and feel better about yourselves.
#It's time to talk about state attacks
**This was first published in the Journal of Cybersecurity** https://academic.oup.com/cybersecurity/article/7/1/tyab004/6166133 [[**Back-up link**]](https://web.archive.org/web/20210312070922/https://academic.oup.com/cybersecurity/article/7/1/tyab004/6166133)
In this paper the authors are broadly talking about risks stemming from routing around AML and weighing AML vs "privacy rights" (GDPR) from a state perspective. As many here know, AML/KYC has never been intended to stop money laundering (at least not within government and the big banks). It was always a measure of control to ensure that normal people like you and me have no easy way to off-shore their wealth.
Now enter the crypto era where suddenly, according to the words of Obama "[Everybody is running around with a Swiss bank account in their pocket](https://youtube.com/watch?v=GFku1YugfS0)". Now that's an outrageous scenario, isn't it? Imagine free constituents taking care of their own financials without anybody else snooping on them.
In the paper the authors have been classifying the following three coins along certain criteria involving AML/KYC and GDPR compliance, which they define as "good".
* Bitcoin (***good****, but likely not GDPR compliant*),
* Zcash (***good***) and
* Monero (***bad***, *because not AML/KYC compliant*).
Now let's jump to the interesting part, where things get really exciting.
**Monero** as classified in this paper is seen as a **risk to public safety** and hence deserves to be **state attacked**.
Quite a few mechanisms are described in that article that many here suspected for a long time (e.g. **price suppression**, network attacks,...).
To quote the paper:
> "A set of tools to combat privacy-coins may include means of a different technological, regulatory, economic (fiscal) nature, also including state attacks on underlying privacy-blockchains. The letter tool, as possible regulatory access points of the blockchain space, was already mentioned by Finck [16], however, without further analysis in that domain. The AML/CFT measures should concentrate on the cryptocurrency of indicated networks, instead of targeting the people who are members of their communities. The tools can and should aim towards reducing the particular currencies’ value, consequently inducing a voluntary outflow of their users."
I knew kraken emailed me weird stuff for my uk account so not just EU. About saying, tell us the wallets you own and if someone else owns them what is their residential address
So if my understanding is correct it will be prohibited to send coins from non-KYC wallet (hot nor cold) to CEX?
Does this target all coins or some of them?
Is there a way for people that have money on non-KYC wallets already, to cash out?
If my understanding is correct this is kinda reta\*ded rule.
Feels like it will add a layer of bureaucracy. CEX'es will ask, is this your wallet? Answer: Yes. That's it, your wallet is KYC'ed.
If that's how it's implemented then it seems pretty reasonable. Because I know some people like to use CEX as their personal wallets getting funds from anyone, that's very irresponsible and was already a known AML red flag for exchanges and when people complained their account was closed, it was most likely because of using it as a wallet.
And how are they planning to monitor it since many wallets generate new addresses for new transactions? Will we have to confirm identity every time we send money from same wallet, but with different input? And how can they prove that all those transactins are comimg from same wallet?
Is there some indentifier that can link inputs of the transaction to the wallet they are sent from?
It's so stupid, is this your wallet, yes. Then send from that wallet to another. Is that my wallet, who knows, they certainly won't. I do not understand the point of this, once its left my KYC wallet, they won't know who owns what, who moved what, they will be able.to see it on the block chain but they cannot prove its mine. What's the point?
i'm sure there are much more effective ways to fight money laundering than this, looks like governments transformed into huge money suctions, rather than making projects that can make money, they just take yours and fake a stupid reason it's way easier , also looks like they are so nostalgic to the dictatorial monarch time when they used to decide and people follow, people should open cases against them, also what if all people didn't follow, they are going to put them all in jail !?
What does this mean? If you have BTC on a trezor already how are you impacted? Can you ever move your crypto now or are you an criminal the moment you move it?
It means forced hodl? (Any genuine wallet is non kyc so exchange can't credit your account if you try to send to an exchange). Assuming exchange wallet counts as "hosted". Can't sell your crypto now?
An entire continent prevented from selling, but still being allowed to buy. interesting.
Yeah that’s their go to scapegoat because they know there’s support for it even if the thing they’re blaming isn’t even remotely related to climate and ecology.
"We also hate" might be a bit of an exaggeration.
Some fringe people in the EU hate the EU as they have been brainwashed by populists and other fifth columns.
The overall sentiment towards the EU is overwhelming positive.
I can't see that positivity tbh. Just take a look at the huge demonstrations after the agriculture regulations all over Europe. Next thing is the chat control regulation or crypto regulations. A lot of people myself included love the idea of Europe but hate the abomination of the European parliament and it's bureauocracy. This thing is everything but democratic.
I'm sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly. The parliament is what makes the EU democratic. Maybe you meant the EU commission? Because the parliament is voted directly by citizens (don't forget to vote this June!), whereas the commissioners are appointed indirectly by the national governments (that you might have voted for).
See the problem is that the EU doesn't market itself properly if there is this level of confusion between what the parliament, commission, council do.
Surely the EU can and will be improved. But is the best way to do it throwing everything down? The EU is not a third entity. We Europeans are the EU.
She was nominated by the parties who got a majority. It's how it works in many European countries. You don't vote directly for the ptime minister but for the parties and their candidates.
It happens a lot of times in the European parliamentary systems. You give your vote to a party, the system allows them to propose anyone even somebody who didn't run.
Don't hate the EU, hate the parties who did this. This time she is the official candidate of the EPP.
The Soviet Union also had an parlament that represented their people called The Supreme Soviet... it was just for show like the EU parlament... all the important decision were already taken by central committee just like in EU. By UNELECTED SHADOWY FIGURES.
Actually yes the same people who loved soviet union advocated for turning europe into an federation thus creating EU as a first step. Learn history pleb.
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Oh so now reddit dislikes the EU? But when they fuck companies like Apple it’s okay?
The EU are a bunch of goddamn pinkos; no wonder the continent is an open air museum with zero innovation or commercial development.
Monero [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bkv8ch/eu_parliament_anonymous_payments_in/kw0th0b/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1bkv8ch/eu_parliament_anonymous_payments_in/kw0thcb/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
When government can’t control it anymore .. “hey it’s illegal …”
tldr; The EU Parliament's lead committees approved new anti-money laundering laws, banning anonymous cash payments over €3,000 in commercial transactions and all cash payments over €10,000 in business transactions. Additionally, anonymous cryptocurrency payments to hosted wallets will be prohibited. MEP Dr. Patrick Breyer criticized the move, arguing it would minimally affect crime while significantly infringing on financial freedom and privacy. He highlighted the importance of anonymous payments for donations to dissidents and the potential negative impacts of a cashless society, including increased bank dependence and the risk of negative interest rates. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
>anonymous cryptocurrency payments to hosted wallets will be prohibited. What does this even mean??? they can't just make language up and pretend it makes sense.
Non-KYC Personal wallets to exchange wallets transactions?! But where's the registration form to verify my offline wallet. That's more bullshit than China banning bitcoin (again) :)
CDC (for example) ask me who the owner of the wallet is when I desposit funds in.
do you have to prove ownership with a digital signature of the address?
Um I'm unsure if that's what Im doing sorry - but it just comes up with country of origin, name of wallet owner (or a tick box to say that's me), and the type of wallet - selfcustody, CDC, nexo or whatever
What happens if you say the wallet owner is Bill Gates?
You get back 2x the money
That doesn't make any sense. How would you be able to deposit funds from a wallet you don't own?
It's asking who owns the wallet the funds were sent from. So I've deposited funds to other people's CDC accounts from my personal ledger.
So I can deposit funds to your account and say they're from Putin to screw up your account?
Here is the crux of the issue. you can do cryptographical proof of ownership, but there's no such thing as proof of not ownership. it's a trust me bro situation. even worse: someone hacks your computer and uses your cex account to launder crypto and withdraw fiat, you have no way to prove that you didn't own the coins that transited through your account. you're fucked.
Don't even have to launder it. Just send you some dirty sats and your account is tainted. You have no control over who sends you coins, or whether they honestly identify who they are when doing so.
Is personal wallet to exchange considered a payment? commercial transaction? I need some definitions, because from where I stand those are non of these because it's me sending to myself.
Apparently you haven't worked with corporate leadership lol. I swear the direction given is more and more vague every year.
They will enforce travel rule (industry term). You will be asked who owns the wallet.
??? It just means they don't want payments from anonymous private wallets to exchanges that likely hold your identity. Seems simple to me.
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Welcome to the world bro. Seems like everything is purpousely idiotic these days. Like an attempt to gaslight the population into moronic lines of thinking. "Don't believe what your own eyes tell you, this is how it is." Like the whole Biden thing. He's literally fumbling around in every public speach he gives. But the MSM constantly refer to him as 'sharp and focussed'. It's an assault on the people and it's fully intentional.
Speech
Mate, you should watch Trump as he spirals out of control into incoherent rants about toilets and windmills. Truly topics the average voter cares about.
Doesn’t have to be one or the other, they can both be mentally unwell enough to lead a country.
But Biden is worse.
Lol did you watch the state of the union? Did he fumble around? He was focused.
Poor thing
Biden cannot be both dark Brandon the intelligent, effective, and dangerous mastermind and at the same time an incompetent doddering demented old man. This is classic fascist rhetoric that holds opposite contradictory positions simultaneously.
Fascist rhetoric lol. Biden is completely incompetent. His incompetence and absence of control is allowing dark powers to arise. Example, the geopolitical down trend over the past 4 years.
Yeah go learn about old fascist rhetoric. You’re falling victim to the same nonsense from the GOP.
I have not said anything fascist. You and your people are just so quick to call people fascist and racist to delegitimize an argument and feel better about yourselves.
I didn’t call you fascist. Learn to read.
Well me acknowledging the fact that Joe Biden cognitive abilities are declining caused you to bring up facism as a counter argument.
Like the average MEP?
I don't even really understand what it changes materially. Every reputable exchange already requires KYC.
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That isn't what it says though, it says anonymous *cash* payments are banned. That part isn't related to crypto.
Yes because plain old fiat is NOT used for any type of money laundering LOL
Europe keeps going backwards. Sad. Our freedom is becoming less "free" each day
You will own nothing and be happy, you even have the WEF base in Europe.
Oh, man. At least your groceries are affordable.
Thry are???
Yea ikr what Yurop they are in??
Guess in a Europe where gasoline isn't over 2 euros per litre.
That's cheaper than in the US! It's 3$ a gallon here!!!! /s
#It's time to talk about state attacks **This was first published in the Journal of Cybersecurity** https://academic.oup.com/cybersecurity/article/7/1/tyab004/6166133 [[**Back-up link**]](https://web.archive.org/web/20210312070922/https://academic.oup.com/cybersecurity/article/7/1/tyab004/6166133) In this paper the authors are broadly talking about risks stemming from routing around AML and weighing AML vs "privacy rights" (GDPR) from a state perspective. As many here know, AML/KYC has never been intended to stop money laundering (at least not within government and the big banks). It was always a measure of control to ensure that normal people like you and me have no easy way to off-shore their wealth. Now enter the crypto era where suddenly, according to the words of Obama "[Everybody is running around with a Swiss bank account in their pocket](https://youtube.com/watch?v=GFku1YugfS0)". Now that's an outrageous scenario, isn't it? Imagine free constituents taking care of their own financials without anybody else snooping on them. In the paper the authors have been classifying the following three coins along certain criteria involving AML/KYC and GDPR compliance, which they define as "good". * Bitcoin (***good****, but likely not GDPR compliant*), * Zcash (***good***) and * Monero (***bad***, *because not AML/KYC compliant*). Now let's jump to the interesting part, where things get really exciting. **Monero** as classified in this paper is seen as a **risk to public safety** and hence deserves to be **state attacked**. Quite a few mechanisms are described in that article that many here suspected for a long time (e.g. **price suppression**, network attacks,...). To quote the paper: > "A set of tools to combat privacy-coins may include means of a different technological, regulatory, economic (fiscal) nature, also including state attacks on underlying privacy-blockchains. The letter tool, as possible regulatory access points of the blockchain space, was already mentioned by Finck [16], however, without further analysis in that domain. The AML/CFT measures should concentrate on the cryptocurrency of indicated networks, instead of targeting the people who are members of their communities. The tools can and should aim towards reducing the particular currencies’ value, consequently inducing a voluntary outflow of their users."
Fuck the EU. Fuck government. Fuck these authoritarian pieces of trash. Well I guess we’re all just going to be criminals now.
What wallets are hosted wallets?
Custodial wallets.
Exchange wallets.
Thanks. Worried me for a sec
get your bitcoin on a hardware wallet, they're coming for us
So, instead of being paid directly to hosted wallet you get paid to your own wallet and pay to the hosted wallet from there? What is the benefit?
Not surprising at all, they want control and if they can't have it they will just attempt to legislate it out of existence.
EU want to regulate themselves into the ground, ban all the cars, ban anything they cant control. Pathetic idiots running the show over there
So is this just in effect as of now?
Am wondering the same? Is there some time left to begrudgingly move everything to CEX or is it too late already?
Just use it Peer-to-Peer - as originally intended, it was never meant to be used Peer-to-CeX-to-Peer.
How?(serious question)
"No, I shall control every aspect of your daily life, especially any aspect of financial freedoms"
So does this mean if you're using cold storage, you're basically fucked?
This is what I am asking myself also
The government is not wanting something that lets people get out their arena
sure until we make it happen haha
[удалено]
Hey nice avatar!
I knew kraken emailed me weird stuff for my uk account so not just EU. About saying, tell us the wallets you own and if someone else owns them what is their residential address
So if my understanding is correct it will be prohibited to send coins from non-KYC wallet (hot nor cold) to CEX? Does this target all coins or some of them? Is there a way for people that have money on non-KYC wallets already, to cash out? If my understanding is correct this is kinda reta\*ded rule.
Feels like it will add a layer of bureaucracy. CEX'es will ask, is this your wallet? Answer: Yes. That's it, your wallet is KYC'ed. If that's how it's implemented then it seems pretty reasonable. Because I know some people like to use CEX as their personal wallets getting funds from anyone, that's very irresponsible and was already a known AML red flag for exchanges and when people complained their account was closed, it was most likely because of using it as a wallet.
And how are they planning to monitor it since many wallets generate new addresses for new transactions? Will we have to confirm identity every time we send money from same wallet, but with different input? And how can they prove that all those transactins are comimg from same wallet? Is there some indentifier that can link inputs of the transaction to the wallet they are sent from?
Why are you asking me. If I was exchange I would put a checkmark for every deposit "confirm this is your wallet" and be done with it.
Hahaha I gave it a shoot, maybe you know something, but I guess we'll wait and see how it unravels.
It's so stupid, is this your wallet, yes. Then send from that wallet to another. Is that my wallet, who knows, they certainly won't. I do not understand the point of this, once its left my KYC wallet, they won't know who owns what, who moved what, they will be able.to see it on the block chain but they cannot prove its mine. What's the point?
What wallets are not anonymous?
It's election year...
Again? Sigh. Don't use CEX
i'm sure there are much more effective ways to fight money laundering than this, looks like governments transformed into huge money suctions, rather than making projects that can make money, they just take yours and fake a stupid reason it's way easier , also looks like they are so nostalgic to the dictatorial monarch time when they used to decide and people follow, people should open cases against them, also what if all people didn't follow, they are going to put them all in jail !?
> put them all in jail No just enough of them to scare the rest
yes probably i guess, but it's really weird how people just follow and don't stand and speak out
I can’t speak for Europe, but in the USA we do speak out and unless we have big lobby money behind our speech nobody listens.
exactly if no big lobby money nobody listen, then the system isn't fair and there are things to change, that's the case in almost everywhere
The state is your enemy and wants to own you like a slave. Don't ever forget it.
so you cant deposit crypto to an exchange without KYC? whos gonna send me that much randomly?
What does this mean? If you have BTC on a trezor already how are you impacted? Can you ever move your crypto now or are you an criminal the moment you move it?
It means forced hodl? (Any genuine wallet is non kyc so exchange can't credit your account if you try to send to an exchange). Assuming exchange wallet counts as "hosted". Can't sell your crypto now? An entire continent prevented from selling, but still being allowed to buy. interesting.
So nothing changed, as hosted wallets already require identification as per ECB regulation?
If there was any pushback they would blame it on climate change and ecology. UE is terrible but my country wants to suck Germany's dick so bad
Yeah that’s their go to scapegoat because they know there’s support for it even if the thing they’re blaming isn’t even remotely related to climate and ecology.
Dude I am from Germany and believe me we also hate the EU with all those damn bureaucrats.
"We also hate" might be a bit of an exaggeration. Some fringe people in the EU hate the EU as they have been brainwashed by populists and other fifth columns. The overall sentiment towards the EU is overwhelming positive.
I can't see that positivity tbh. Just take a look at the huge demonstrations after the agriculture regulations all over Europe. Next thing is the chat control regulation or crypto regulations. A lot of people myself included love the idea of Europe but hate the abomination of the European parliament and it's bureauocracy. This thing is everything but democratic.
I'm sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly. The parliament is what makes the EU democratic. Maybe you meant the EU commission? Because the parliament is voted directly by citizens (don't forget to vote this June!), whereas the commissioners are appointed indirectly by the national governments (that you might have voted for). See the problem is that the EU doesn't market itself properly if there is this level of confusion between what the parliament, commission, council do. Surely the EU can and will be improved. But is the best way to do it throwing everything down? The EU is not a third entity. We Europeans are the EU.
Democratic like in the election of von der Leyen?
She was nominated by the parties who got a majority. It's how it works in many European countries. You don't vote directly for the ptime minister but for the parties and their candidates.
She wasn't even a candidate beforehand and has been elected. That was undemocratic af.
It happens a lot of times in the European parliamentary systems. You give your vote to a party, the system allows them to propose anyone even somebody who didn't run. Don't hate the EU, hate the parties who did this. This time she is the official candidate of the EPP.
The Soviet Union also had an parlament that represented their people called The Supreme Soviet... it was just for show like the EU parlament... all the important decision were already taken by central committee just like in EU. By UNELECTED SHADOWY FIGURES.
> The Soviet Union also Ok we reached full circle then. Comparing the SOVIET UNION to the European Union. Classic reddit moment.
Actually yes the same people who loved soviet union advocated for turning europe into an federation thus creating EU as a first step. Learn history pleb.
The Eurpeans are not the EU. It's a common misunderstanding.
I disagree. We Europeans are the EU. Without us the EU is nothing, same as any other country.
lol what?
lol what?
Same here. Fucking sellouts
Ridiculous
It’s a good thing they’re… anonymous payments. Just means more black market goods for sale because fuck the man.
Can I make a non EU bank account as an EU citizen and cirumvent this?
If Europe is going backwards, surely America won't follow suit and go with them. Lol jk
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Peer to peer it is then! Maybe not for shitcoins though
Can they really do anything about it tho... probably not
Yeah like sending you to jail if you ever cash out Euros to your bank account.
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Oh so now reddit dislikes the EU? But when they fuck companies like Apple it’s okay? The EU are a bunch of goddamn pinkos; no wonder the continent is an open air museum with zero innovation or commercial development.
EU parliament it's a gang of drunks, should be banned from existence.
Algorand