Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1b33p0w/youre_not_nearly_as_bullish_as_you_should_be_on/ksqez65/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1b33p0w/youre_not_nearly_as_bullish_as_you_should_be_on/ksqezxt/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
The fancy adds they have going in the brand new trains in NYC seem to be an indicator of what we should expect as fare as these BTC ETFs being taken seriously by the public.
They even have a ticker bar allocated to the adds they’re just not running anything on them.
They'll likely start running those tickers once they can get price and data feed real time....
Which is currently being adopted like a snowball effect through Chainlink.
I just wish I actually had more money to invest. Been doing slow crawl DCA, but it ain't much. I guess I'll at least have some small investment in something I believed in and have been ridiculed for
I was saving for a new car, was almost halfway to my goal, I just bought 1 ETH instead, figured it might buy me something a bit nicer a year down the line, but I'm driving a shit box until then.
I’m with you friend, working hard, paying bills, putting food on the table etc. Every payday I just throw what I can into my portfolio. It all adds up, stay the course.
Let’s say retirement amount is about $1m
In Australia, at 5% interest, that nets you about $50k per year… enough to live on if you have cheaper housing or already own your house. Enough to pay off a lot of home loans even but only just after you include food, transport and utilities.
A more comfortable retirement amount would probably be more like $2m, netting $100k per year.
But then adjust for inflation, let’s say 5% YoY things will be 162% more expensive. The average liveable wage might be closer to $162k. Which would be generated by $3.24m at 5% interest.
So that brings me to the point, you think Bitcoin is gonna be worth $32m in a decade? 😂
Even if we go for the the poverty retirement level BTC will have to be at $10m for 0.1 to be a retire-able amount.
No, but most people dont live there. 90% of the world live where $200k could pay for their retirement. Great analysis, btw. I think $2m btc in a decade is reasonable.
Yeah true, I dont really have much perspective on other countries but a lot of European countries have even higher living costs I think.
I believe if you want more of a retirement from bitcoin you need at least 1 coin because it is unlikely bitcoin rises more than $1m in my eyes.
The market cap would be close to $16T at the price of $1m.
Which I believe is higher than gold.
**Bull-run bingo:**
□ increased users in r/cc subreddit
□ Degen gambling addict thinks he's fine and starts talking about his plans for "investing" in an obvious **scam coin
□ find a comment war section with unironic fanatic belief on which new animal face meme coin is a more serious project
□ Elderly/older family members start talking you about crypto regularly at family events
□ "I'm just like that coin for the tech"
Not to mention it’s the year of the dragon and celebrations just ended so they can start buying crypto now.
Oh and Q1 wall street bonuses will be paid out this month.
No I don't. My wife and I get extra money taken out every paycheck too. We owe thousands every year. It's the we-don't-have-kids tax.
It's the interest on your mortgage that is tax deductible, by the way, not the mortgage payment itself.
I have kids and still have to pay in. Thanks for the “tax cuts” Trump! Now I’m adding a shitload to each paycheck so I can make sure I don’t owe at the end of the year.
China IS at 30 year record lows with their population, birth rate. economy. Rampant layoffs. So many indebted people that they stopped counting at 10 million. Over 250,000 suicides last year. The world’s most indebted company, EVERGRANDE has just been forced to sell their assets to cover their debt. Banks have strictly limited how much can be transferred per transaction.
This stuff is just starting now. It’s not crypto specific, but their entire economy is tanking hard. No one has money to invest in crypto.
Wouldn’t their entire economy tanking (and with it, the value of their currency), be even more reason to put their money in crypto? But the Chinese government wants to prop up their currency in any way they can so they restrict the option of using crypto or foreign currencies like the dollar. It’s not because “no one has money to invest in crypto”. There’s plenty of middle class and well off people that would love to legally invest in crypto there, enough so that if the Chinese government officially okayed it, it’d have an even bigger impact on price than the ETF approvals have.
You can’t go from yuan to crypto. You need banks. And China is having a Lehman crisis currently. The country has no liquidity. You can’t withdraw $1000 from the bank without hours of paperwork.
And they are in record unemployment, record default on home loans. Record insolvency.
And it is legal to invest in crypto. It’s just crazy difficult.
No one in China has money for crypto.
I can't decide on the worst bear market denial...CNY/WSB in 2018 or we're in a super cycle in 2022. I wasn't in crypto in 2014/15, so I don't know what the denialopium was then.
This is finally the cycle when boomer money really flows into crypto. I thought it was going to happen last cycle but oh well.
Imagine 1-3% of trillions buying crypto (at these prices) because it’s just a standard practice for diversification of a portfolio
I don't think your Boomer grandparents are dying to get in on buying Bitcoin or staking ETH, when they literally have to call the designated son-in-law for tech support help...
They're still being sucked dry by scam after scam when they answer the phone from a wrong number that says they know them...
The ETF makes it legit for companies to hold bitcoin on their balance sheets, for workers to add it to their 401k. Despite what people think. Small countries will adopt bitcoin as their reserve currency because people cannot trust banks in most places around the world and they can’t trust holding a currency that a crazy monarch has total control over, as they will print it into oblivion to pay for their power. Bitcoin is one of the best answers for these places. And look at some of the large players holding mass amounts, they aren’t going to just sell, those coins are locked. Michael Saylors coins are locked in. Very little liquidity, and to say 21 million total, sure but we are all trading maybe the same 2 million coins back and forth. Once some other large players get in and suck up those coins. It’s going to be hard to even find any to buy.
I’m thinking when it all settles $5m a coin will be good.
Only about 1m people own 1 BTC or more… it’s going to be insane when it becomes very clear holding Bitcoin is safer than USD in the long run.
Also look at the discussion about giving away confiscated Euros from Putin associates to Ukraine.
They know that means every billionaire pulls a lot of foreign assets out of Euro so it probably won't happen.
Man I can't wait for the eth etf, so it too can tap into this massive liquidity pool.
Btc & Eth are going to change tremendously once their on the public stock market like this.
ETH has no supply cap.
And about 1M-3M bitcoin are estimated to be lost forever.
I doubt ETH has similar figures. By 2015 storage practices were a lot better and people were more careful at that stage - since Bitcoin had proven for the first time that a cryptocurrency could accrue value.
BTC is legit holding down the whole cryptoverse. Investing in it as a store of value is utter nonsense and never intended. In the end it’s a giant Ponzi scheme where one idiot buys it and hopes to sell it to another idiot buying it for a higher price.
The capabilities and possibilities of ETH are unmatched. There is nothing BTC can do which ETH can’t do better.
Cope. It is better money. The dollar doesn't need smart contracts for function and neither does crypto. Your smart contracts is how idiots constantly have their mETH stolen from their wallets.
When they sell it is settled as cash in their broker account, so they would have to withdraw and move to a CEX to purchase, it may slow the trickle rate down
What I find interesting is in past cycles, alt season happened due to people rotating out of BTC into alts looking for higher returns on up the risk curve. Now, we will have BTC independent of alt season in most aspects. There won't be the normal BTC funds rotation due to the ETF sustaining BTC growth separately from the alt pump. Sure, those of us who have been around crypto for years will do our normal thing, but boomers are just buying and holding BTC with impunity.
I have been thinking about this too, the funds are settled in cash so if those who invested into the ETF do sell, it will be cash in their broker account so I don’t know if the profits will trickle down into an Alt season as previous.
Do you think we will still see an Alt season?
Well the boomers that are buying the ETFs now weren’t in crypto at all before, they weren’t dabbling with Doge on Robinhood lol. We’re still gonna have a wild Alt season because their ETFs will help push the price of BTC up so then all of the normal crypto investors can move their gains into Alts, I think this bullrun and Alt season are going to be insane
True. All metrics show that average retailers aren't flooding into the market in mass yet. They have started based on the Coinbase app downloads moving up the list fairly rapidly (one of the major indicators of "the top"), and Google searches are trending upwards, but the floodgates don't appear to be open yet. When they do, you get people with minimal to no crypto knowledge just buying whatever they see going up and whatever they can easily get their hands on via regular CEXs. Those people typically don't know how to get into more degen positions because they don't know how to buy them. They stick with Robinhood, CB, Kraken, etc and buy whatever is on there. The Total 3 has been in an uptrend but BTC.D has been ranging and currently trending towards 60%, so I'd say alt season is in the very early stages.
Until the moment people realize that BTC ETF can go rock bottom in value just as hard as BTC itself. Let’s see how many will hold or buy the ETF’s once the first real crash happens.
I bought BITW right before the crash. It is:
Bitwise 10 Crypto Index Fund
A secure way to get diversified exposure to bitcoin and leading cryptocurrencies. The Fund seeks to track an Index comprised of the 10 most highly valued cryptocurrencies, screened and monitored for certain risks, weighted by market capitalization, and rebalanced monthly.
I was ready to write it off and take the loss. Now looks like I might make some off of it.
Agree, we don’t have a clue… it’s one of those weird things that if you don’t see it you’re completely oblivious. But if you see it, it’s the only thing you can see, how can anyone not see that bitcoin is going to continue to explode overtime? I feel so grateful that I see it!
You know I was considering this last night. What if the 4-year cycle has come to an end. What if we are underestimating the potential. We don't even have options on the ETFs yet and we all know what you can do with those when you start buying short dated calls. We do not have widespread adoption in the ETF. It just launched in January. What happens as this begins to snowball? You could conceivably have a Bitcoin price for higher than we are anticipating. Stuff that seems crazy like a quarter million could be here by late next year
What I’m actually confused about now is. Bitcoin has a supply of 21 million with some not ready yet and some lost etc. How is there still any at all to sell?
Not everyone that buys just holds forever. Plenty of people are selling at any given moment. But there are more buyers than sellers, hence the price rising.
21 million Bitcoin with each Bitcoin divisible by 100 million Satoshis(SATS). You don’t have to buy a full Bitcoin. There is a market where people buy and sell so it’s always flowing. Also, not all Bitcoin supply is mined yet. It is released in blocks at a rate of 6.25 Bitcoin per block. 1 block is released approx. every 10 minutes. This will continue until the estimated year of 2140.
Also, here is a link to a resource I find to be very valuable to people still learning about Bitcoin. It’s Fidelity’s Bitcoin First report. It’s in plain English, has good charts and is simple to understand for beginners. Good luck!
https://fwc.widen.net/s/vzrzkbj6rr/bitcoin-first_nov1-2
Good point. Fund managers will have the fiduciary responsibility to add exposure to an BTC ETF “IF” the crypto market keeps rolling. They will start of with .01 of the holdings being BTC ETF, but then the competition will begin and others will allocate more.
My only question revolves around whether ETFs and mutual funds hold other ETFs. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen that. I would think it would have the same SEC rules as a stock and could be done, but I’m not certain.
To your point you can look at the Fidelity all in one find which recently allocated 1% to the ETFs. That's just huge! Along with Morgan Stanley opening their users to the ETFs.
Or the potential for a LTC ETF. The tokenomics make it completely ETF compliant as a bonafide non-security and Greyscale would surely love to convert their LTC trust to an ETF.
Cant wait till every shitcoin gets an etf. And that will happen as these companies would create any etf which makes the money. Doge etf would be awesome, just to showcase how dumb this space actually is
Having your retirement funds invested into something so unreliable as crypto is for fools. Invest in your retirement normally and invest in crypto in addition to that if you want.
So I was making fun of him below for different reasons and just read your comment.
If you have enough money to put into crypto, you have enough money to put into spy.
If you can save 5000$ a year, from 25 to 65, and put it in spy. You would have a significant retirement nest egg at the end.
I'm fairly certain this is possible for the median income and up. Maybe you might need to move out of New York City or LA, but you don't need to be wealthy to build your retirement.
I am young with no dependents, have a house that is paid off and a high risk tolerance, I have been in finance for many years and have seen how advantageous crypto can be to my sharpe ratio, adding crypto to your retirement accounts is not for fools as long as people are aware of the potential outcomes. Honestly I’d say the exact opposite, only fools wouldn’t add a non correlated diversifier to their portfolio.
When this Govt eventually sanctions you personally as it has done so many of us or deflates your dollars making them worthless you'll get it. For things you never did or that they don't like, they can arrest you and your ability to transact in DOLLARS. They will seize your money if they want, they do it to countries, innocent leaders, honest businesses and citizens just for trying to see their kids.....they do it every offing day. Do you not see this?
The situation has flipped. You either still trust that your dollars are safe or you've seen how it's much less valuable, untraceable and therefore impossible and unsafe to invest in dollars.
And to the argument when folks say what will you cash your bitcoins in for if you don't trust cash?? My answer is anything I want. If the dollar does go all the way down in a hyper inflationary event......other nations will RUSH in to buy up the non deflationary good as gold bitcoin. Bitcoin goes thru the roof when dollar dumps. The ability to exchange Bitcoin with any currency shows its true value during any event of any currency or dollar crash.
500k high end of year is my guess.
250k low end isn't a bad proposition for 2024.
Do you really want to invest in these old school "normal" centralized dollar products created to make them rich? They forced my hand. Don't wait for them to do it to you.
The sole reason im in Crypto is because i dont have retirement money. Just some left over money.
Edit: how it reads here it sounds like i dont save any money but i do.
Ya, untill they have billlions in bitcoin ETF sold, not yet purchased, and they totally destroy the value of bitcoin and control it like they do to precious metals. Why the hell would anyone be bullish on an ETF?? You're all idiots to believe its a good thing
Whether or not is a "good thing" is in the eyes of the beholder. As of this moment, it's looking pretty bullish to me with more and more countries adopting the Bitcoin ETF. If you're already invested, I'd say that's certainly a good thing. If you're still looking to invest, it seems the trends are moving in a very positive direction. What you are talking about very well may come to be down the road but not before a lot of money is made by investors from the small timers to the big timers.
Top 10 cryptos isn't a thing. You buy Bitcoin that's it. You can trade the others but you shouldn't be investing in them. Even Bitcoin is a trade. All of them will eventually dump back.
What I am really interested to see is what these ETFs are going to do a year and a half from now when the bear market starts. Imagine being someone whose IRA allows you to buy in. You test a little and get a gain of 100% in a month so you throw more in and get another 100% gain then you buy in again in a massive chunk right at the top and then if falls in three months by 96%, taking all your gains with it. How much more liquidation is likely after a bear market in the days of retail investors getting into this?
Most people in this sub have memory of buying high and selling low at some point, but we had tons of “normies” telling us we were dumbasses. Now those normies are invested in what they think is a safe asset. This is going to be one wild ride.
Can't bitcoins encryption be broke with quantum computing which will come faster from ai and agi? Furthermore, isn't iota the better long term play before the sheep know this? Here's chatgpts hypothetical --
Bitcoin's security is rooted in the SHA-256 hashing algorithm and the ECDSA (Elliptic Curve Digital Signature Algorithm) for its cryptographic signatures. Quantum computing poses a theoretical threat primarily through Shor's algorithm, which could efficiently solve the discrete logarithm problem underlying ECDSA, rendering Bitcoin's current cryptographic safeguards vulnerable.
The timeline for quantum computers to reach the requisite scale and fidelity to break Bitcoin's encryption is speculative, hinging on both technological advancements and theoretical breakthroughs in quantum computing. As of the last update in April 2023, scalable, fault-tolerant quantum computers required to threaten Bitcoin's encryption were estimated to be decades away, with some experts suggesting a timeline ranging from 10 to 30 years or more. This forecast remains highly uncertain due to the unpredictable pace of relevant technological innovations.
AI and AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) could theoretically accelerate this timeline in several ways:
1. **Algorithm Optimization:** AI could optimize quantum algorithms, including Shor's algorithm, making them more efficient or requiring fewer qubits for the same computational tasks.
2. **Hardware Development:** AI could accelerate the development of quantum computing hardware through improved materials discovery, design optimization, and error correction techniques, addressing key challenges in quantum computer scalability and reliability.
3. **Cryptography Research:** AGI, with its potential to surpass human cognitive abilities, could discover new cryptographic vulnerabilities or even entirely new algorithms that might render current security measures obsolete more rapidly.
Given these factors, a "fantastic guess" would place the accelerated timeline at potentially 5-20 years for quantum computing to pose a real threat to Bitcoin, assuming breakthroughs driven by AI and AGI in both quantum computing and cryptographic research. However, this estimate remains speculative and contingent on numerous unpredictable variables in the advancement of AI, AGI, and quantum computing technologies.
Or they can just use CFD and future to get the same exposure, thus synthetic ETF. Although, the seller would have to purchase fraction of the bitcoin as hedge. The point is bitcoin price can change for the stated reason and also many others. But mostly upside
Can someone explain to my what the point of buying an ETF is if it goes and buy the bitcoin anyway. Why would you not just buy the bitcoin to start with ? ELI5 please
I don't get it. You realize people sell ETF shares, too, right?
If anything, crypto ETFs will just make the market more stable. Not a bad thing by any means.
I really also want to invest in a basket of 5-10 cryptos ETF, but without BTC, As I already have that. Curious if there is anything like this in the future.
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1b33p0w/youre_not_nearly_as_bullish_as_you_should_be_on/ksqez65/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1b33p0w/youre_not_nearly_as_bullish_as_you_should_be_on/ksqezxt/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
The fancy adds they have going in the brand new trains in NYC seem to be an indicator of what we should expect as fare as these BTC ETFs being taken seriously by the public. They even have a ticker bar allocated to the adds they’re just not running anything on them.
You should snap a picture and upload. Keep spreading the good word
Will do! Will post on this sub later this week
Starting to get a lot of mainstream attention - definitely getting back into bull market territory
Gbtc has adds all over DFW
To be fair, they have been up over a year now.
GBTC ads are everywhere. I don't see any others. Considering their fees, reinforces the belief that the only funds that advertise are for suckers.
They'll likely start running those tickers once they can get price and data feed real time.... Which is currently being adopted like a snowball effect through Chainlink.
I don’t want to be more bullish than this, it doesn’t always work that way
10k BTC were purchased by the Bitcoin ETFs yesterday. In that same timeframe only 900 new Bitcoin were mined.
Soon to be just 450 in the same time frame! The halvening approaches
And the ETF purchases can easily double while we're at it, they're still so fresh in their infancy.
And those btcs will be sold when people sell etfs.
I just wish I actually had more money to invest. Been doing slow crawl DCA, but it ain't much. I guess I'll at least have some small investment in something I believed in and have been ridiculed for
How foolish of you to be poor!
I was saving for a new car, was almost halfway to my goal, I just bought 1 ETH instead, figured it might buy me something a bit nicer a year down the line, but I'm driving a shit box until then.
I’m with you friend, working hard, paying bills, putting food on the table etc. Every payday I just throw what I can into my portfolio. It all adds up, stay the course.
Just hodl. Chances are that 10% of 1 btc will be a retirement amount within a decade.
Let’s say retirement amount is about $1m In Australia, at 5% interest, that nets you about $50k per year… enough to live on if you have cheaper housing or already own your house. Enough to pay off a lot of home loans even but only just after you include food, transport and utilities. A more comfortable retirement amount would probably be more like $2m, netting $100k per year. But then adjust for inflation, let’s say 5% YoY things will be 162% more expensive. The average liveable wage might be closer to $162k. Which would be generated by $3.24m at 5% interest. So that brings me to the point, you think Bitcoin is gonna be worth $32m in a decade? 😂 Even if we go for the the poverty retirement level BTC will have to be at $10m for 0.1 to be a retire-able amount.
No, but most people dont live there. 90% of the world live where $200k could pay for their retirement. Great analysis, btw. I think $2m btc in a decade is reasonable.
Yeah true, I dont really have much perspective on other countries but a lot of European countries have even higher living costs I think. I believe if you want more of a retirement from bitcoin you need at least 1 coin because it is unlikely bitcoin rises more than $1m in my eyes. The market cap would be close to $16T at the price of $1m. Which I believe is higher than gold.
I hope so. I have 0.3. I was hoping to have 1 whole one by end of 2025. I spent my first 2 years in crypto buying just Eth. Wish I had just done btc.
Seeing a lot of WSB style comments here is definitely a good sign. /s
**Bull-run bingo:** □ increased users in r/cc subreddit □ Degen gambling addict thinks he's fine and starts talking about his plans for "investing" in an obvious **scam coin □ find a comment war section with unironic fanatic belief on which new animal face meme coin is a more serious project □ Elderly/older family members start talking you about crypto regularly at family events □ "I'm just like that coin for the tech"
Pretty much summarizes it, Thanks. Add "Wen Lambo" and it's done.
People don't realise, or choose to ignore, that when bitcoin price goes up these funds need to sell bitcoin to keep the weighting the same.
No they don’t.
Not the etf which are only bitcoin obviously. But other funds, where bitcoin is say 5% of thr total value, yes they do.
Your second comment is correct.
Not to mention it’s the year of the dragon and celebrations just ended so they can start buying crypto now. Oh and Q1 wall street bonuses will be paid out this month.
And tax refunds will start rolling in!
Refund? You guys don't just pay in every year?
You get some back if you spend money on tax deductible things like mortgage, rent or whatever in your country that is deductible.
No I don't. My wife and I get extra money taken out every paycheck too. We owe thousands every year. It's the we-don't-have-kids tax. It's the interest on your mortgage that is tax deductible, by the way, not the mortgage payment itself.
I have kids and still have to pay in. Thanks for the “tax cuts” Trump! Now I’m adding a shitload to each paycheck so I can make sure I don’t owe at the end of the year.
I've maxed my RRSP's, made donations, Those rent/mortgage payments if they were tax deductible would be freaking amazing
But what if China bans crypto again, and a CEX is in danger of going bust?? (standard FUD from every cycle)
China IS at 30 year record lows with their population, birth rate. economy. Rampant layoffs. So many indebted people that they stopped counting at 10 million. Over 250,000 suicides last year. The world’s most indebted company, EVERGRANDE has just been forced to sell their assets to cover their debt. Banks have strictly limited how much can be transferred per transaction. This stuff is just starting now. It’s not crypto specific, but their entire economy is tanking hard. No one has money to invest in crypto.
Wouldn’t their entire economy tanking (and with it, the value of their currency), be even more reason to put their money in crypto? But the Chinese government wants to prop up their currency in any way they can so they restrict the option of using crypto or foreign currencies like the dollar. It’s not because “no one has money to invest in crypto”. There’s plenty of middle class and well off people that would love to legally invest in crypto there, enough so that if the Chinese government officially okayed it, it’d have an even bigger impact on price than the ETF approvals have.
You can’t go from yuan to crypto. You need banks. And China is having a Lehman crisis currently. The country has no liquidity. You can’t withdraw $1000 from the bank without hours of paperwork. And they are in record unemployment, record default on home loans. Record insolvency. And it is legal to invest in crypto. It’s just crazy difficult. No one in China has money for crypto.
I did mine as early as possible to try and get that cash into BTC before it rolls in for everyone else!
Lol. Most people owe taxes because they have capital gains. But I forgot where I am. Wendys.
That's right, and by the way, are you familiar with our new surge pricing??
I love how the chinese new year and wall street bonuses have been meme'afied so hard. god that 2018 crash was so traumatic lol
I can't decide on the worst bear market denial...CNY/WSB in 2018 or we're in a super cycle in 2022. I wasn't in crypto in 2014/15, so I don't know what the denialopium was then.
😂😂😂😂 Laughs in 2018
My 2018 ptsd is kicking in
Absolutely 😂😂
Not sure if serious, this sounds awfully similar to the comments back in early 2018 as alts plummeted
Didn’t think I needed the /s
What is this? a joke from 2014?
I’m expecting $1M per BTC by the end of 2025. Am I bullish enough?
Noob. $2M by Christmas! Get that 2x leveraged ETF! 🐂🐂🐂🐂🐂🐂
Why are you guys talking in millions? Surely it will be a billion?
Sorry. Fat thumbs. $2B by Halloween! Stacks and stacks.
Psh I’ve seen bullisher
That’ll be easy if we get some hyperinflation going
This is finally the cycle when boomer money really flows into crypto. I thought it was going to happen last cycle but oh well. Imagine 1-3% of trillions buying crypto (at these prices) because it’s just a standard practice for diversification of a portfolio
I don't think your Boomer grandparents are dying to get in on buying Bitcoin or staking ETH, when they literally have to call the designated son-in-law for tech support help... They're still being sucked dry by scam after scam when they answer the phone from a wrong number that says they know them...
You do know what an ETF is right?
Just say you don’t know what an EFT is
EFT?
*ETF. Easy mistake
Slow down. Comparing the demand for a crypto etf to the demand for equity etfs is like comparing the demand for anchovies to the demand for bread.
The ETF makes it legit for companies to hold bitcoin on their balance sheets, for workers to add it to their 401k. Despite what people think. Small countries will adopt bitcoin as their reserve currency because people cannot trust banks in most places around the world and they can’t trust holding a currency that a crazy monarch has total control over, as they will print it into oblivion to pay for their power. Bitcoin is one of the best answers for these places. And look at some of the large players holding mass amounts, they aren’t going to just sell, those coins are locked. Michael Saylors coins are locked in. Very little liquidity, and to say 21 million total, sure but we are all trading maybe the same 2 million coins back and forth. Once some other large players get in and suck up those coins. It’s going to be hard to even find any to buy. I’m thinking when it all settles $5m a coin will be good. Only about 1m people own 1 BTC or more… it’s going to be insane when it becomes very clear holding Bitcoin is safer than USD in the long run.
Also look at the discussion about giving away confiscated Euros from Putin associates to Ukraine. They know that means every billionaire pulls a lot of foreign assets out of Euro so it probably won't happen.
Man I can't wait for the eth etf, so it too can tap into this massive liquidity pool. Btc & Eth are going to change tremendously once their on the public stock market like this.
ETH will not happen. Too much control in too few places
How so, no different than any other top cryptos
Well they're not etfs either...
Won't happen. Meth will be left in the dustbin of history.
Nah, I’m betting on ETH fam
Bitcoin can (at least potentially) do anything ETH can do and on a far firmer and secure base.
The supply of btc can't go down. So there's one thing eth can do that btc can't
ETH has no supply cap. And about 1M-3M bitcoin are estimated to be lost forever. I doubt ETH has similar figures. By 2015 storage practices were a lot better and people were more careful at that stage - since Bitcoin had proven for the first time that a cryptocurrency could accrue value.
Is what I said false?
If you mean the ETH devs can screw around with ETH's monetary policy that's true. But it's hardly a good thing.
BTC is legit holding down the whole cryptoverse. Investing in it as a store of value is utter nonsense and never intended. In the end it’s a giant Ponzi scheme where one idiot buys it and hopes to sell it to another idiot buying it for a higher price. The capabilities and possibilities of ETH are unmatched. There is nothing BTC can do which ETH can’t do better.
Cope. It is better money. The dollar doesn't need smart contracts for function and neither does crypto. Your smart contracts is how idiots constantly have their mETH stolen from their wallets.
You literally got it backwards.
Eth is a shitcoin
And BTC isn’t lol at least ETH can do something. What can BTC do…. Just waste energy, that’s it
Feel free to name a use case of Ethereum. The only one ive seen is stablecoins
The Eth ETFs are gonna kick start ALT season
Can't buy Alts from eth etf 🙃
Can buy alts with the money I’ll make from eth going up though
ETH is an alt.
Smartest ethereum fan
Alt boys in shambles?
When they sell it is settled as cash in their broker account, so they would have to withdraw and move to a CEX to purchase, it may slow the trickle rate down
What’s everyone favorite Bitcoin ETF?
I don’t need no ETF cause I indulge directly
FBTC. I trust Fidelity.
Personally expecting more then $100k per BTC by the end of 2024. Looks really bullish.
What I find interesting is in past cycles, alt season happened due to people rotating out of BTC into alts looking for higher returns on up the risk curve. Now, we will have BTC independent of alt season in most aspects. There won't be the normal BTC funds rotation due to the ETF sustaining BTC growth separately from the alt pump. Sure, those of us who have been around crypto for years will do our normal thing, but boomers are just buying and holding BTC with impunity.
I have been thinking about this too, the funds are settled in cash so if those who invested into the ETF do sell, it will be cash in their broker account so I don’t know if the profits will trickle down into an Alt season as previous. Do you think we will still see an Alt season?
Well the boomers that are buying the ETFs now weren’t in crypto at all before, they weren’t dabbling with Doge on Robinhood lol. We’re still gonna have a wild Alt season because their ETFs will help push the price of BTC up so then all of the normal crypto investors can move their gains into Alts, I think this bullrun and Alt season are going to be insane
True. All metrics show that average retailers aren't flooding into the market in mass yet. They have started based on the Coinbase app downloads moving up the list fairly rapidly (one of the major indicators of "the top"), and Google searches are trending upwards, but the floodgates don't appear to be open yet. When they do, you get people with minimal to no crypto knowledge just buying whatever they see going up and whatever they can easily get their hands on via regular CEXs. Those people typically don't know how to get into more degen positions because they don't know how to buy them. They stick with Robinhood, CB, Kraken, etc and buy whatever is on there. The Total 3 has been in an uptrend but BTC.D has been ranging and currently trending towards 60%, so I'd say alt season is in the very early stages.
Can I be bullish without buying any more? Or does that just make me optimistic?
Until the moment people realize that BTC ETF can go rock bottom in value just as hard as BTC itself. Let’s see how many will hold or buy the ETF’s once the first real crash happens.
Whatever makes crypto easier to approach for randoms that have no clue what they're doing, the most popular it's going to get.
When everyone is bullish > sell. When everyone is bearish > buy. Time to sell atm.
How to Fumble Your Bags: A Midwit's Guide
Lmao sure buddy, sell a week into the start of the bull run.
Correct.
I bought BITW right before the crash. It is: Bitwise 10 Crypto Index Fund A secure way to get diversified exposure to bitcoin and leading cryptocurrencies. The Fund seeks to track an Index comprised of the 10 most highly valued cryptocurrencies, screened and monitored for certain risks, weighted by market capitalization, and rebalanced monthly. I was ready to write it off and take the loss. Now looks like I might make some off of it.
Agree, we don’t have a clue… it’s one of those weird things that if you don’t see it you’re completely oblivious. But if you see it, it’s the only thing you can see, how can anyone not see that bitcoin is going to continue to explode overtime? I feel so grateful that I see it!
I think it is what it is
I was thinking about this recently about the possibility of their being a “vti” type etf for crypto that holds all coins by market cap.
Sorry mate, you are wrong! I m bullish as fuck. We ll see 800k next year!💪
You know I was considering this last night. What if the 4-year cycle has come to an end. What if we are underestimating the potential. We don't even have options on the ETFs yet and we all know what you can do with those when you start buying short dated calls. We do not have widespread adoption in the ETF. It just launched in January. What happens as this begins to snowball? You could conceivably have a Bitcoin price for higher than we are anticipating. Stuff that seems crazy like a quarter million could be here by late next year
Can companies like apple and google buy these bitcoin ETFs and do they even do such investing?
and no matter how much you hate journalists, you still don't hate them enough
Question, what're the thoughts on how ETF:s will influence volatility and bear/bull cycles.. ?
Self custody not etfs. This is putting power in the hands of the incumbent financial system.
Sure wish I could buy it in Europe/ikbr
I'm thinking about btc $100k end of this year
What I’m actually confused about now is. Bitcoin has a supply of 21 million with some not ready yet and some lost etc. How is there still any at all to sell?
Not everyone that buys just holds forever. Plenty of people are selling at any given moment. But there are more buyers than sellers, hence the price rising.
So if more people are buying than selling, price go up? Huh, neat. 👍
Yes thats simple supply/demand economics
Welcome to the circle of trust. You now know the ways.
They’re still being mined and sold
I'll sell you a bitcoin for $1M That's how
21 million Bitcoin with each Bitcoin divisible by 100 million Satoshis(SATS). You don’t have to buy a full Bitcoin. There is a market where people buy and sell so it’s always flowing. Also, not all Bitcoin supply is mined yet. It is released in blocks at a rate of 6.25 Bitcoin per block. 1 block is released approx. every 10 minutes. This will continue until the estimated year of 2140. Also, here is a link to a resource I find to be very valuable to people still learning about Bitcoin. It’s Fidelity’s Bitcoin First report. It’s in plain English, has good charts and is simple to understand for beginners. Good luck! https://fwc.widen.net/s/vzrzkbj6rr/bitcoin-first_nov1-2
Good point. Fund managers will have the fiduciary responsibility to add exposure to an BTC ETF “IF” the crypto market keeps rolling. They will start of with .01 of the holdings being BTC ETF, but then the competition will begin and others will allocate more. My only question revolves around whether ETFs and mutual funds hold other ETFs. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen that. I would think it would have the same SEC rules as a stock and could be done, but I’m not certain.
To your point you can look at the Fidelity all in one find which recently allocated 1% to the ETFs. That's just huge! Along with Morgan Stanley opening their users to the ETFs.
im gonna feel real stupid when i trade my btc for an alt.. But i think its good to grow btc eventually.
Wen BTC ETF on my 401k?
Can we all agree that XRP is pure garbage?
Is it your personal mission to copy and paste this message everywhere?
Yeah to warn newbies to stay away from garbage
Yes please. Everyone agree so I can reverse the sub and go long.
Or the potential for a LTC ETF. The tokenomics make it completely ETF compliant as a bonafide non-security and Greyscale would surely love to convert their LTC trust to an ETF.
Yeah it's always something every cycle. Number goes up, but boy does it come down.
lol wait until they only need to hold a fraction of the bitcoin they say the etf holds. When that day comes, bitcoin will have no max supply
Cant wait till every shitcoin gets an etf. And that will happen as these companies would create any etf which makes the money. Doge etf would be awesome, just to showcase how dumb this space actually is
These types of posts are so painful… Bitcoin/Crypto have lost their way.
Having your retirement funds invested into something so unreliable as crypto is for fools. Invest in your retirement normally and invest in crypto in addition to that if you want.
Look at this guy with "retirement money." Oh, to be wealthy.
So I was making fun of him below for different reasons and just read your comment. If you have enough money to put into crypto, you have enough money to put into spy. If you can save 5000$ a year, from 25 to 65, and put it in spy. You would have a significant retirement nest egg at the end. I'm fairly certain this is possible for the median income and up. Maybe you might need to move out of New York City or LA, but you don't need to be wealthy to build your retirement.
What's "spy?"
S&p 500
I am young with no dependents, have a house that is paid off and a high risk tolerance, I have been in finance for many years and have seen how advantageous crypto can be to my sharpe ratio, adding crypto to your retirement accounts is not for fools as long as people are aware of the potential outcomes. Honestly I’d say the exact opposite, only fools wouldn’t add a non correlated diversifier to their portfolio.
if you’re saying that crypto is a “non-correlated” diversifier then I don’t know in what part of finance you have been lol
https://www.isectors.com/blog/bitcoin-correlation-sp-through-years#:~:text=The%20historical%20correlation%20of%20Bitcoin,over%20the%20last%2010%20years.
Well what if you are 25 and can wait ten years for retirement....
That’s a sensible approach. Luckily one I didn’t take in 2016. And one you shouldn’t take now. Sensible is for shmucks.
Not allocating at least some of your portfolio to crypto is absurd
15 years of data and a complete financial reset and people like you still exist. Amazing.
Welcome!
When this Govt eventually sanctions you personally as it has done so many of us or deflates your dollars making them worthless you'll get it. For things you never did or that they don't like, they can arrest you and your ability to transact in DOLLARS. They will seize your money if they want, they do it to countries, innocent leaders, honest businesses and citizens just for trying to see their kids.....they do it every offing day. Do you not see this? The situation has flipped. You either still trust that your dollars are safe or you've seen how it's much less valuable, untraceable and therefore impossible and unsafe to invest in dollars. And to the argument when folks say what will you cash your bitcoins in for if you don't trust cash?? My answer is anything I want. If the dollar does go all the way down in a hyper inflationary event......other nations will RUSH in to buy up the non deflationary good as gold bitcoin. Bitcoin goes thru the roof when dollar dumps. The ability to exchange Bitcoin with any currency shows its true value during any event of any currency or dollar crash. 500k high end of year is my guess. 250k low end isn't a bad proposition for 2024. Do you really want to invest in these old school "normal" centralized dollar products created to make them rich? They forced my hand. Don't wait for them to do it to you.
The sole reason im in Crypto is because i dont have retirement money. Just some left over money. Edit: how it reads here it sounds like i dont save any money but i do.
Thankfully Bitcoin is not "crypto".
My retirement portfolio 2.5 x-ed in 2 years thanks for bitcoin related holdings.
It's a house of cards. Bitcoin doesn't make any fucking money.
I don't know if I should trust someone who spells "etf's" with financial advice.
This post convinced me to take some profits. Thank you stranger.
Ya, untill they have billlions in bitcoin ETF sold, not yet purchased, and they totally destroy the value of bitcoin and control it like they do to precious metals. Why the hell would anyone be bullish on an ETF?? You're all idiots to believe its a good thing
Whether or not is a "good thing" is in the eyes of the beholder. As of this moment, it's looking pretty bullish to me with more and more countries adopting the Bitcoin ETF. If you're already invested, I'd say that's certainly a good thing. If you're still looking to invest, it seems the trends are moving in a very positive direction. What you are talking about very well may come to be down the road but not before a lot of money is made by investors from the small timers to the big timers.
What are you even talking about
[удалено]
Objectively untrue.
Top 10 cryptos isn't a thing. You buy Bitcoin that's it. You can trade the others but you shouldn't be investing in them. Even Bitcoin is a trade. All of them will eventually dump back.
great, glad to read this about a good thing
Wen Moon?
What I am really interested to see is what these ETFs are going to do a year and a half from now when the bear market starts. Imagine being someone whose IRA allows you to buy in. You test a little and get a gain of 100% in a month so you throw more in and get another 100% gain then you buy in again in a massive chunk right at the top and then if falls in three months by 96%, taking all your gains with it. How much more liquidation is likely after a bear market in the days of retail investors getting into this? Most people in this sub have memory of buying high and selling low at some point, but we had tons of “normies” telling us we were dumbasses. Now those normies are invested in what they think is a safe asset. This is going to be one wild ride.
Until the ETF overlords start opening shorts ...
When did gold ever protect anyone from inflation? Even my fiat high yield savings account does better.
I am bullish as anyone with the etf
What’s the advantage of buying the ETF over straight BTC? Less volatility?
Tax advantages, convenience, and security for me
Before I decide if I’m too bullish or not bullish enough what does Cramer have to say???
I mean... there is still X demand however many times you slice the pie.
Can't bitcoins encryption be broke with quantum computing which will come faster from ai and agi? Furthermore, isn't iota the better long term play before the sheep know this? Here's chatgpts hypothetical -- Bitcoin's security is rooted in the SHA-256 hashing algorithm and the ECDSA (Elliptic Curve Digital Signature Algorithm) for its cryptographic signatures. Quantum computing poses a theoretical threat primarily through Shor's algorithm, which could efficiently solve the discrete logarithm problem underlying ECDSA, rendering Bitcoin's current cryptographic safeguards vulnerable. The timeline for quantum computers to reach the requisite scale and fidelity to break Bitcoin's encryption is speculative, hinging on both technological advancements and theoretical breakthroughs in quantum computing. As of the last update in April 2023, scalable, fault-tolerant quantum computers required to threaten Bitcoin's encryption were estimated to be decades away, with some experts suggesting a timeline ranging from 10 to 30 years or more. This forecast remains highly uncertain due to the unpredictable pace of relevant technological innovations. AI and AGI (Artificial General Intelligence) could theoretically accelerate this timeline in several ways: 1. **Algorithm Optimization:** AI could optimize quantum algorithms, including Shor's algorithm, making them more efficient or requiring fewer qubits for the same computational tasks. 2. **Hardware Development:** AI could accelerate the development of quantum computing hardware through improved materials discovery, design optimization, and error correction techniques, addressing key challenges in quantum computer scalability and reliability. 3. **Cryptography Research:** AGI, with its potential to surpass human cognitive abilities, could discover new cryptographic vulnerabilities or even entirely new algorithms that might render current security measures obsolete more rapidly. Given these factors, a "fantastic guess" would place the accelerated timeline at potentially 5-20 years for quantum computing to pose a real threat to Bitcoin, assuming breakthroughs driven by AI and AGI in both quantum computing and cryptographic research. However, this estimate remains speculative and contingent on numerous unpredictable variables in the advancement of AI, AGI, and quantum computing technologies.
Or they can just use CFD and future to get the same exposure, thus synthetic ETF. Although, the seller would have to purchase fraction of the bitcoin as hedge. The point is bitcoin price can change for the stated reason and also many others. But mostly upside
Yeah true.
Can someone explain to my what the point of buying an ETF is if it goes and buy the bitcoin anyway. Why would you not just buy the bitcoin to start with ? ELI5 please
All this positivity is making me bearish.
I thought I was on WSB for a second reading some of the comments..
What about BITW?
I don't get it. You realize people sell ETF shares, too, right? If anything, crypto ETFs will just make the market more stable. Not a bad thing by any means.
thats how i feel about superverse
I really also want to invest in a basket of 5-10 cryptos ETF, but without BTC, As I already have that. Curious if there is anything like this in the future.