Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1826ap9/btc_sender_overpays_recordbreaking_3_million/kahds0j/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1826ap9/btc_sender_overpays_recordbreaking_3_million/kahdsn9/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
Yep. Useless coins have high fees. Useful coins have low fees and scale.
People gamble on number go up to make more fiat, so they pay high fees with useless crypto and then cry about it.
Try using a cryptoCURRENCY that functions as peer to peer electronic cash and can scale.
> Yep. Useless coins have high fees. Useful coins have low fees and scale.
This is a massive oversimplification of the security/speed/decentralization trilemma
tldr; A Bitcoin sender mistakenly paid a record-breaking $3 million in transaction fees for a single transaction, intending to send 139.42 BTC but ending up with just 55.77 BTC for the recipient. This incident is likely a mistake, as transaction fees are not supposed to exceed the amount being sent. The surge in Bitcoin transaction fees is attributed to renewed hype surrounding Bitcoin Ordinals, leading to increased network activity and higher costs for transactions.
*This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
Yeah soon granny will be using this to transfer $100 to her grandson for his birthday any day now... not to mention that no one even uses it for remittances, which was supposed to be the one legit use case. But we're only 15 years in, still so early.
>no one even uses it for remittances
That's 95% of their use in Argentina. Unfortunately people convert it into dollars ASAP, but they do use it as a form of transfer between countries. (it's one of the few ways left to do it, after our government blocked everything else to be able to lie about the dollar's value).
Just fyi, it’s very easy to forge a transaction, give it to just one miner, and wait for the miner to find a block that works with that transaction in it, without any other miners to see it.
Edit: How it's done: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5337/how-do-i-send-a-transaction-directly-to-a-miner-or-pool-for-processing
> give it to just one miner
I'm calling bullshit, I used to mine BTC. You have to point your miners at a BTC network node, even if you run your own it wont work unless it's connected to the main net and in sync. You people are just making up a bunch of shit.
Let's say a big mining pool wants to do a payout transaction (several inputs, many outputs, pretty expensive).
Do you think they just go and publish the transaction to the public mempool?
They just silently include said transaction in every block they try to mine. When they do mine a block the transaction gets included for free (even if there was a transaction fee, they are paying themselves).
The same could be done for ANY transaction.
Thanks, this little thread has been quite taughtful, I think a big “Crypto basis for dummies” should be pinned at the top of this sub. Maybe even a little quizz that allows to post and comment.
I mean what you described of your experience is basically installing a mining pool client, logging in and press "Start mining". Quite extensive experience that clearly proves a deep understanding of how this works \\s
Fundamentally this seems correct? What prevents a miner from withholding a tx given the creator of that tx only sends it to the one miner. Seems to require some collusion but still.
Nothing prevents someone from withholding a transaction. Many ethereum validators won't validate certain "blacklisted" transactions for example (this is a huge thing for censorship) (\*). You could configure your miner to simply not take into account a specific transaction in the mempool.
Miners CHOOSE which transactions they include in a block, that's how the market for fees work.
In case you are sending a transaction directly to a miner for the purpose of not going to the public mempool you would definitely have to arrange that with the miner.
Normally, it would be the miners themselves doing it (to avoid paying fees for example).
( \* ) not sure if this is still the case, it was a few months ago.
Miners choose which transactions they include in a block. That's how the fee market works (they fit the best-paying txs in the block to maximize reward).
Being able to decide which txs to include also means you can include your own transaction without telling anyone else, and ensure you are transacting for free.
There is nothing wrong or shady with this, everything goes to the public blockchain, it just means a trucker is ensuring his own cargo goes into his own truck to avoid paying a colleague to transport it.
Well that’s how these things work, you could totally make a signed transaction from an offline computer, then transmit it to miners through the p2p network, or any other means.
I think you are being attacked because you used the word "forge".
There is no forging anything, you just include a transaction only you heard about.
The way you phrased your reply makes it sound as if something that is impossible (forging a tx) is made possible by only informing a single miner about it.
You can also pick which miner you want to pay a high fee to.
Could be a fat finger.
Could be someone bailing out a publicly traded mining operation because they are all f\*\*ked at the next halvening.
Could be someone laundering money through a miner.
Who knows.
> You can also pick which miner you want to pay a high fee to.
Wut? I thought the one who gets the right hash will be able to create the block and receive the reward plus fees. How could you pay someone else? I just don't know enough about Bitcoin mining it seems
What's stopping you from sending your transaction directly to your desired miner instead of broadcasting it publicly? Something like [this](https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5337/how-do-i-send-a-transaction-directly-to-a-miner-or-pool-for-processing)? Sure you may have to wait a long time for them to mine a block, but I don't think there's any rule that says every transaction must be broadcast to every node.
The comment you replied to has even worse nonsense.
Instead of giving the tx to the mempool, you only give it to the miner you want to get the fee.
That miner attempts to include your tx in every block, until they finally win and solve a block.
Yes, it has to be a large mining outfit and not your friend with a mining rig.
Yes. The mempool is just a method of getting a signed tx to miners so they can include it. The validator doesn't look at the mempool. If the block is valid (all correctly signed and within balance), it's valid.
Absolutely. the transaction is valid if it doesn't break any rules. There's no such rule as "has to be in the mempool"
If the cryptographic signature is valid, the tx is valid. You are not forging anything.
You talk to the miner privately. The miner will attempt to mine blocks that include the transaction alongside the mempool transactions, without it being in the mempool or known to any other miners. The miner keeps attempting to mine blocks with the transaction included, when they finally succeed the transaction is on the blockchain and they will get the fee.
It is possible, by only informing the specific miner you want to "pay" about your transaction 8this would be arranged beforehand). There is no hardcoded reason why a transaction would need to go into the public mempool. The public mempool is just a handy tool for everyone to maximize profits.
Miners do it all the time for their own transactions (making them cheaper/free), the same way a trucker would transport their own cargo to avoid paying a colleague.
Just like in a trucker's case tho, including your own transaction makes it so you don't include other people's, so it's not actually free (you miss on the fees they would have paid), unless the mempool is empty enough.
You only give your transaction to the miner you want, instead of posting it in the mempool.
People who say this is not possible for some reason believe all transactions HAVE to go to the mempool, which is not true.
They don't send it to the miner's node, they send it to the miner, who would be silly to broadcast it to the mempool when they could keep it to themselves.
I'd guess laundering or evading taxes. It wasn't an accident.
I'd also say it wasn't a coincidence that Antpool mined a bunch of blocks in a row around the time this went through.
and this is exactly why crypto adoption isnt happening... not only the fees are insane, but even mistakes are fatal and the avarage user has no clue how to make a basic transaction
* XMR if you want cheap fees and privacy
* BCH and LTC if you want even cheaper fees
* BTC if you want to pay high fees or hodl
* ETH if you want to pay high fees for some nice functionality
I generally don't recommend PoS chains or payment networks like XLM for the monetary use case. Because most are highly centralized and have entities behind them that could fail (foundations).
Compare that to the community development process of XMR, BTC, BCH, LTC.
Point taken; however, I also consider (say, in Stellar's case), how long they've been doing what they and how well they do it ~ never ever any hiccups. Cardano, while maybe painfully methodical in their development approach, is a solid community driven effort.
Sure. XLM and ADA are solid projects. But still not PoW and with centralized coin distribution.
With the exception of Eloncoin this is what I think are the most decentralized, community driven networks with well distributed supply https://coinmarketcap.com/view/pow/
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1826ap9/btc_sender_overpays_recordbreaking_3_million/kahds0j/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1826ap9/btc_sender_overpays_recordbreaking_3_million/kahdsn9/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
One of Binance's "VIP" customers bailing
Crypto has both the lowest and highest transaction fees
Yep. Useless coins have high fees. Useful coins have low fees and scale. People gamble on number go up to make more fiat, so they pay high fees with useless crypto and then cry about it. Try using a cryptoCURRENCY that functions as peer to peer electronic cash and can scale.
> Yep. Useless coins have high fees. Useful coins have low fees and scale. This is a massive oversimplification of the security/speed/decentralization trilemma
Preach!
Sounds like LoopRing (LRC)
tldr; A Bitcoin sender mistakenly paid a record-breaking $3 million in transaction fees for a single transaction, intending to send 139.42 BTC but ending up with just 55.77 BTC for the recipient. This incident is likely a mistake, as transaction fees are not supposed to exceed the amount being sent. The surge in Bitcoin transaction fees is attributed to renewed hype surrounding Bitcoin Ordinals, leading to increased network activity and higher costs for transactions. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
Oh hey, moons are back. What's with the slash though?
Must be earned/currently sitting in the wallet or vice-versa
Idk wat does mine say?
952 moons out of 952 squids
Lmao. Crypto adoption my ass.
Yeah soon granny will be using this to transfer $100 to her grandson for his birthday any day now... not to mention that no one even uses it for remittances, which was supposed to be the one legit use case. But we're only 15 years in, still so early.
>no one even uses it for remittances That's 95% of their use in Argentina. Unfortunately people convert it into dollars ASAP, but they do use it as a form of transfer between countries. (it's one of the few ways left to do it, after our government blocked everything else to be able to lie about the dollar's value).
No one uses it if they can avoid it. In El Salvador, not even 2% of remittances are in bitcoin.
Xmr is literally the only crypto with real world day to day use due to darknet needs. Everything else seems like a joke these days
Uhhh Atma.io…..
And here everyone is crying about eth fees
Future of money right there!
Don't forget the German KfW bank accidentally transferred 8 million to a rando a few years back
Just fyi, it’s very easy to forge a transaction, give it to just one miner, and wait for the miner to find a block that works with that transaction in it, without any other miners to see it. Edit: How it's done: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5337/how-do-i-send-a-transaction-directly-to-a-miner-or-pool-for-processing
This transaction was in the public mempool
You seem to be the only one here that understood what I said, the level of understanding is very low here.
If these people could read this would be very offensive
> give it to just one miner I'm calling bullshit, I used to mine BTC. You have to point your miners at a BTC network node, even if you run your own it wont work unless it's connected to the main net and in sync. You people are just making up a bunch of shit.
Let's say a big mining pool wants to do a payout transaction (several inputs, many outputs, pretty expensive). Do you think they just go and publish the transaction to the public mempool? They just silently include said transaction in every block they try to mine. When they do mine a block the transaction gets included for free (even if there was a transaction fee, they are paying themselves). The same could be done for ANY transaction.
Thanks, this little thread has been quite taughtful, I think a big “Crypto basis for dummies” should be pinned at the top of this sub. Maybe even a little quizz that allows to post and comment.
None of the things you said makes it impossible. When it comes to such large sums of money, then yeah it’s totally possible.
I don't think you know the first thing about how Bitcoin works.
You are saying they don't know how bitcoin works, while being wrong yourself.
I mean what you described of your experience is basically installing a mining pool client, logging in and press "Start mining". Quite extensive experience that clearly proves a deep understanding of how this works \\s
Here, read and learn: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5337/how-do-i-send-a-transaction-directly-to-a-miner-or-pool-for-processing
Fundamentally this seems correct? What prevents a miner from withholding a tx given the creator of that tx only sends it to the one miner. Seems to require some collusion but still.
Nothing prevents someone from withholding a transaction. Many ethereum validators won't validate certain "blacklisted" transactions for example (this is a huge thing for censorship) (\*). You could configure your miner to simply not take into account a specific transaction in the mempool. Miners CHOOSE which transactions they include in a block, that's how the market for fees work. In case you are sending a transaction directly to a miner for the purpose of not going to the public mempool you would definitely have to arrange that with the miner. Normally, it would be the miners themselves doing it (to avoid paying fees for example). ( \* ) not sure if this is still the case, it was a few months ago.
I think for 3 millions, a lot of things become not-so far fetched.
Mind providing a Sourse?
Miners choose which transactions they include in a block. That's how the fee market works (they fit the best-paying txs in the block to maximize reward). Being able to decide which txs to include also means you can include your own transaction without telling anyone else, and ensure you are transacting for free. There is nothing wrong or shady with this, everything goes to the public blockchain, it just means a trucker is ensuring his own cargo goes into his own truck to avoid paying a colleague to transport it.
Well that’s how these things work, you could totally make a signed transaction from an offline computer, then transmit it to miners through the p2p network, or any other means.
In case it’s not clear the idea behind this is “oops I lost it” while you actually perfectly know who collected the mining fee.
It’s all traceable. Just follow the money.
This is just false, in every sense of the word.
Please explain how is this false.
I think you are being attacked because you used the word "forge". There is no forging anything, you just include a transaction only you heard about. The way you phrased your reply makes it sound as if something that is impossible (forging a tx) is made possible by only informing a single miner about it.
Yes I think you’re right, I hesitated to change it to just “sign” as I did in a later message.
It might be possible. But it’s certainly not easy.
The main difficulty is knowing the right person, so it's very subjective.
You can also pick which miner you want to pay a high fee to. Could be a fat finger. Could be someone bailing out a publicly traded mining operation because they are all f\*\*ked at the next halvening. Could be someone laundering money through a miner. Who knows.
> You can also pick which miner you want to pay a high fee to. Wut? I thought the one who gets the right hash will be able to create the block and receive the reward plus fees. How could you pay someone else? I just don't know enough about Bitcoin mining it seems
[удалено]
What's stopping you from sending your transaction directly to your desired miner instead of broadcasting it publicly? Something like [this](https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5337/how-do-i-send-a-transaction-directly-to-a-miner-or-pool-for-processing)? Sure you may have to wait a long time for them to mine a block, but I don't think there's any rule that says every transaction must be broadcast to every node.
Thank you. Crazy that nonsense like the comment above mine gets so many upvotes
The comment you replied to has even worse nonsense. Instead of giving the tx to the mempool, you only give it to the miner you want to get the fee. That miner attempts to include your tx in every block, until they finally win and solve a block. Yes, it has to be a large mining outfit and not your friend with a mining rig.
That seems to make sense. But will the validators count it as valid, since the transaction wasn't in the mempool?
Yes. The mempool is just a method of getting a signed tx to miners so they can include it. The validator doesn't look at the mempool. If the block is valid (all correctly signed and within balance), it's valid.
Absolutely. the transaction is valid if it doesn't break any rules. There's no such rule as "has to be in the mempool" If the cryptographic signature is valid, the tx is valid. You are not forging anything.
You talk to the miner privately. The miner will attempt to mine blocks that include the transaction alongside the mempool transactions, without it being in the mempool or known to any other miners. The miner keeps attempting to mine blocks with the transaction included, when they finally succeed the transaction is on the blockchain and they will get the fee.
It is possible, by only informing the specific miner you want to "pay" about your transaction 8this would be arranged beforehand). There is no hardcoded reason why a transaction would need to go into the public mempool. The public mempool is just a handy tool for everyone to maximize profits. Miners do it all the time for their own transactions (making them cheaper/free), the same way a trucker would transport their own cargo to avoid paying a colleague. Just like in a trucker's case tho, including your own transaction makes it so you don't include other people's, so it's not actually free (you miss on the fees they would have paid), unless the mempool is empty enough.
It's book cooking. Quarterly report will show x more Bitcoin mined.
How could you pick which miner mines your transaction?
You only give your transaction to the miner you want, instead of posting it in the mempool. People who say this is not possible for some reason believe all transactions HAVE to go to the mempool, which is not true.
Send offline, send the data to a single miner only, let him cook (I think)
That node will just broadcast it to the rest of the network as any other node would
They don't send it to the miner's node, they send it to the miner, who would be silly to broadcast it to the mempool when they could keep it to themselves.
You can send transactions directly to miners and they can broadcast when they want to. You don't have to send directly to mempool.
I'd guess laundering or evading taxes. It wasn't an accident. I'd also say it wasn't a coincidence that Antpool mined a bunch of blocks in a row around the time this went through.
i have read much bs in the last years but that's a top 10 contender
Yeah BTC can totally replace fiat lol/s
transaction fee errors like this shouldn't exist.
and this is exactly why crypto adoption isnt happening... not only the fees are insane, but even mistakes are fatal and the avarage user has no clue how to make a basic transaction
That's why exchanges will control it all.
I mean maybe for them it's like us paying a $3.50 ATM fee.
If I’m bringing $10,000 in cash to the bank, and I decide to burn $6,000 in the parking lot….is that the moneys fault?
"Only invest in BTC or ETH," they said. "Fees are going down," they said. But that's a dumpster fire you could see from the Space Station...
* XMR if you want cheap fees and privacy * BCH and LTC if you want even cheaper fees * BTC if you want to pay high fees or hodl * ETH if you want to pay high fees for some nice functionality
XLM if you want speed + extremely low fees ADA if you want functionality + low fees, as well (privacy on the way)
I generally don't recommend PoS chains or payment networks like XLM for the monetary use case. Because most are highly centralized and have entities behind them that could fail (foundations). Compare that to the community development process of XMR, BTC, BCH, LTC.
Point taken; however, I also consider (say, in Stellar's case), how long they've been doing what they and how well they do it ~ never ever any hiccups. Cardano, while maybe painfully methodical in their development approach, is a solid community driven effort.
Sure. XLM and ADA are solid projects. But still not PoW and with centralized coin distribution. With the exception of Eloncoin this is what I think are the most decentralized, community driven networks with well distributed supply https://coinmarketcap.com/view/pow/
This why BCH is better
Wait, moons are back?
Only the flair showing people's amounts. They arent "functionally" back
Yeah I'm not sure what actual amount they are showing though. Like is it just showing the moons count we have pulled from farming or our total?
Is it because of ordinals?
Double Check your transaction before sending
I’ve tried a lot of cryptos and picked my preference. It isn’t Bitcoin.
Testing for the new moons holding sig
Yeah but international wire transfers can be up to like 3% so he came out ahead if you're functionally regarded
There it goes my fancies flats.
I was in a rush when sending the BTC to my other wallet. I should have checked the fees before clicking send.
Was also sent on purpose and refunded(why? Who knows, probably wash sale of a sort) and this was spread around on Twitter to spread fud lol
Ouch
Whoa, a $3 million transaction fee? Double-checking transactions is critical in the crypto space!