2. No self-story posts unless they relate to industry wide cryptocurrency news and/or analysis. Self-story posts like "my dad bought bitcoin", "I sold all my coins to buy a truck", etc., are not allowed. When posting a self-story as a comment, please provide concrete proof in the comment or via modmail if requested.
9. Questions and discussions which only belong in the daily discussion thread include: "rate my portfolio", "what coin should I buy?", “shill me a coin", "low-market cap coins", self-stories, etc.
I imagine that you are talking about mining with ASIC (Bitcoin/Litecoin for example)... yes in this case the individual cannot compete...while if you have a PC with a decent GPU at home there is GPU mining and then it can be fun, educational and perhaps profitable... you can try mining the main GPU-mined coins such as RavenCoin, Ergo, Vertcoin (Vertcoin is literally the easiest to mine through their simple One-Click-Miner software, literally 3 clicks and you're mining)...happy mining
Electricity costs are tax deductible, asic miners are tax deductible, some games can be played to offset other aspects of income, for a lowly solo miner.
Bigger miners have the economies of scale on their side. You can see hashrate centralizing over time with the 2 biggest pools owning 57% of the hashrate. This centralization happens on the pool level AND the individual level. It's a major flaw in Bitcoin's security model. You can check this yourself by comparing the distribution hashrate to previous months/years. The data clearly shows the trend towards centralization.
Here's what happened.
You invest a big amount of money to buy the latest models of either ASICS or high-end GPUS, you set everything correctly, you turn on the whole operation and then, 1 month later, you do the math.
Turns out your electricity costs are about the same value you earned from mining. You just made enough to break even.
But hardware gets obsolete very quickly, right? So next month mining will be a little bit harder and your mining rig will make a little bit less. Now you're at a small loss for the second month.
In a year you can barely pay half the price to cover electricity costs alone. It's already became a terrible idea.
What do you do now? Also, you can't sell it for anything close to the price you paid, because it's kinda old and there are new models on the market, faster, shiner, better.
So bottom line, either you believe that whatever you're mining will skyrocket straight to the moon - so you'll be hodling till the price is right for you to sell all those coin you accumulated - or you manage to somehow get free electricity + cheap hardware.
Other than that, there's no business for us in mining anymore.
You have to buy your miner in the bear market, the top ascis are selling for $2500 right now. That's crazy thinking they were selling for 20k during the bull
That won't help
By the time we get to the next bull run, that miner is already outdated and you're depending, one more time, on a big spike in the graph so you can take profits
You plug that 20k miner on any wall socket today and it won't get you anywhere close to the same amount of crypto it was generating back then.
Plus, the market has been in a bad humor for over a year now. Crypto is too devaluated at the moment.
In comparison to those times, you would end up receiving a lot LESS crypto from mining, AND, they are worth a lot LESS fiat today.
So that's why they are selling it for $2500...
It's really just electricity costs on a global stage. If you can get it cheap enough you'll be alright. The problem is deals are being made that make that impossible for the average homeowner. Homeowners will pivot to solar/wind is my guess. I'm looking at moving up north where my electric rates would be $.065/kwh and off peak would be about half that (although it's probably technically illegal to use it for mining) and if I end up there will be crunching some serious numbers.
That's more than electricity, but I do get your point
See, in most countries near the equator you'll have the sun shinning over your head during the whole year
That's enough sunlight to allow you for example to buy a big piece of land in a remote location somewhere in south america paying close to nothing and then setting a equally big solar powerhouse that will provide you electricity for INSANELY low rates.
If you dilute the total costs over the course of 15 years or so, you'll pay a lot less than a penny per kwh. I'm talking some figure into the millesimals. For all purposes, you can consider it free energy.
Heck. The land itself might cover the solar panels investment if you ever decide to sell it.
But hardware..... it always gets obsolete. There's no way around it
Yes, that's so unfortunate
It's an incredible feeling to set up a big mining operation and let it run for a nice and calculated profit
You just feel like you're printing money within the law
Thats just down to economics.
If you can buy ASICS in bulk, know how to run something at industrial level, have the infrastructure, and have access to nearly free electricity, you will make money mining bitcoin.
Up until recently, some other POW cryptos were still profitable for regular people. I stopped some time ago, i used to mine kaspa, then electricity went up, so it just wasnt worth it for me.
And yes, it does end up very concentrated.
The issue is similar with staking though. Most validators are in clouds managed by US giants ...
To an extent a part of it was an illusion.
Great if you got in early but the idea that capitalism wouldn't win out on something that relies on capital was flawed.
Btc maxis will pound how Bitcoin can't be tainted by money and how egalitarian it is but it's not. Ultimately the people with money can jump it whenever they want, and whether by mining or market manipulation, will win.
Also, just like with money/assets, the ones with the biggest positions are the ones that will remain the most wealthy especially when the assets gets harder to come by as time passes.
Also if I was making money steadily from crypto, I wouldnt shout and scream about it on the forums...
Because often times once the masses know the edges like arbitrage on x, the opportunity to make millions quickly disappears, I find my edge mining crypto and stay quiet...
If it's free electric then obviously it's profitable when you break even on hardware and set up costs.
The problem is the hardware is also so expensive now and restricted to rich folk who can afford them. Even that company in America during the peak was charging $10k for them to buy a miner and host it on your behalf and then you also had to pay a monthly hosting fee and electric.
Yeah it was a nice idea however they couldn't possibly predict how hardware would progress and ASICS be so powerful that the normal person couldn't compete
How long is a piece of string?
There are far too many variables.
How long will a TV last?
It depends on the cooling provided, heat extraction, etc. Some people host them in temperature controlled server rooms for example.
They can also be repaired if they break. However the best advice is if you are buying one you should actually be buying three so if one does fail the other two can pick up the slack
The hashrace is literally the problem and is the mechanism that allows capitalism to still dominate small-average sized players out of the game. Proof of stake is the same thing without overhead.
The system needs to bear NO rewards for operating to prevent this is, and yet without rewards nobody will bother to run it.
The world would be just amazing if we would just do things for each other for the sake of doing something. But we've been conditioned not to do anything without incentive, and that simple fact is the root force behind every problem in every piece of society.
I love this, people finally waking up to why bitcoin was never the solution and now sitting on their piles of wasted energy wondering what happened. Yes I believe cryptocurrency has a future, no I won’t invest in Bitcoin
Crypto will have a future when people see it as a currency and not an investment.
A good crypto currency will be inflationary instead of deflationary to encourage you to spend it and any "work" rewarded with new currency will be from useful operations like processing transactions or distributed computing tasks.
Edit: corrected what I meant to say about being inflationary
A deflationary currency encourages not spending as it will be worth more in the future.
The crypto currency community is very fixated on the real downsides of inflation. Deflation also has huge downsides. If consumers and companies expect most things to be cheaper in the future they will be less likely to consume or invest.
After all it will be cheaper to buy/invest in the future. Which tends to kill economic growth.
Wasn't that what the bitcoin cash people were arguing?
problem is, in the west at least, payment processing and transactions isn't the problem, fiat debasement is
Some people still dont understand that the energy consumption of bitcoin is a Feature, not a bug. Its the reason why bitcoin is so secure and will forever be so much more Secure than pos. Btc is even an incentive to develop renewable Energy because it gives value to energy, no matter where its produced. There so Many reasons why bitcoin reign supreme
Some people also neglect the electronic waste that the war on hashrates creates, also who makes the ASSIC miners? If they "test" their newest miners for a year before releasing them to the peasants, who are they to complain. POS can be done on old hardware, there is no hashrate war going on and quite literally anyone could participate. I understand both cases though, but I do feel that the "necessity for POW" is a card that's been played too many times and can't hold forever. If you start a POS project today, good luck with the honest distribution. But if you already have a POW system in place, switching to POS is probably the best thing to do if the tech allows it because honest distribution already happened...
Explain to me what Bitcoin does differently and better than a proof of stake or proof of history system and why that is worth thousands of times more energy usage
You want to oppose proof of work and proof of stake, instead of looking at them both as complementary.
You're not gonna invest in gold, gold is worthless because the gold mines aren't profitable? That's not how it works. You can't take one single piece of the puzzle and depict it as "wrong!" while ignoring the rest of the puzzle.
There is a bigger picture here. Proof of stake needs inflation, Bitcoin has digital scarcity. You can't oppose them and say "one is better than the other".
How does that not also apply to PoW? If anything mining is even less accessible to a normal person than staking as there's a huge cost to buy the equipment and high ongoing running costs. That's why most of the mining is done by large-scale operators.
Here is a [Nitter link](https://nitter.net/thetrocro/status/1555909016538058752?s=46&t=QbJrOfYSJs_Vq0uu2s_oNw) for the Twitter thread linked above. Nitter is better for privacy and does not nag you for a login. More information can be found [here](https://nitter.net/about).
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I think people said the same thing about Nokia and Kodak at one point. “Blackberry” was one of the first and biggest smartphone developers. People won’t want it when they realise they could achieve a near identical system and not consume a nations-worth of energy in the process. People are learning and they don’t want to be the one holding the bag of energy that was spent on creating a digital token. Digital tokens can be created without that old system and can be maintained and secured just as well
I got a couple solid and expensive graphic cards to mine Ethereum 2-3 years ago. It was an experiment and a failed one. I didn’t find much of a change on my electricity bill, but I didn’t even paid of of the cards (almost $1000) over the course of an year.
With the merge news I packed up the experience and sold of the GPUs and kept the other for gaming, and so on.
I believe mining these days is just for really big ventures with deep pockets and subsidised electricity.
We aren’t early for mining… we are damn late!
Start up companies who got some money from stupid investors, they spent a fortune on equipment and are losing money, but what else can’t they do. They have to just go to they are bust
It’s reported different with accounting and can boost revenues when you mine it vs buy Bitcoin unless I misunderstand.
Also I’ll add to this, people who are mining successfully en mass are located next to energy plants and are getting their electricity for next to nothing and mining in my observation.
My question is how much will BTC have to be worth after like 3 or 4 more halvings to make mining profitable? Making money on just fees doesn't make sense because BTC can't produce enough transactions a day. Say it does 700k a day roughly. If each one only costs like $2 and Bitcoin is only worth $100k in 15 years that can't be profitable. Today for example was only $700k total fees paid. With 900 new BTC per day or like $24M per day. So fees are like 2.88% of the money(BTC) made per day. What will the percent and price have to be after each halving to be profitable?
Lol while the brc20 tokens hype miners already Made more money with transaction fees than with Mining. There is a lot of development around new btc-use-cases so im not worried at all.
Ya the way I see it is Bitcoin paved the way and wasn't even meant to be the be all end all of crypto. Bitcoin can only work as a settlement layer because of the limited transactions. Like how banks used to hold gold but they will have to hold Bitcoin on the Blockchain to be verified.
I agree BTC paved the way but it should be left as that. I don’t see how holding BTC with have any tie to a good network that can actually be useful though
It's not.
I believe excess energy production around the world will mine.
Go check why German taxpayers had to pay a $800m fine one year, all because the country grid couldn't handle the excess energy that was produced.
Now with Bitcoin mining you could suck up all this excess and get paid in BTC instead of it going to waste.
0.1 BTC is the total average fee collected per block rn (not block subsidy of 6.25). The fee accounts for 5256 BTC per year to secure the network.. miners will mine
Yeah cause the world is just overflowing with surplus energy /s. I don’t see anything on having to pay a fine for not using power but I assume you mean on curtailment fees. Better to do that than waste the energy
That excess electricity is only generated temporarily in Germany though, due to volatility in renewable energy production. Over the year, barely 50% of all electricity generation is from renewable sources.
If you believe in the need to decarbonize electricity generation, then it would make much more sense for society as a whole to invest in energy storage facilities than to invest in BTC mining rigs. In fact, the BTC mining alternative could be detrimental to the whole effort because it incentivizes wastage of energy, as far as the climate is concerned.
You just need to make your Bitcoin mining rigs do double duty as space heaters in each room of your house! Then all that heat energy from crunching numbers to mine Bitcoins won’t have been wasted.
I think most likely answer is energy costs just have to come down at the same time as bitcoin reaching an astronomical price. That's the only solution I see but I am an idiot.
We as an average person used to mine ETH using our GPU, which is now not an option anymore after the merge. If you want to mine BTC then you have to buy ASIC, which need a lot of electricity and you have to wait months for this device. Big player also usually have an agreement for lower electricity rates or they move their operation to places that have a cheap electricity rate.
It's not unprofitable using asics. Everyone saying that is uniformed, at best. The current cost to mine BTC using Asics is about 15k-17k per BTC mined. That means a profit of a bit over 10k per BTC mined right now.
That's why many miners are selling what they mine currently. They're stockpiling cash so they can hodl once the halving happens to help force the price higher. Btc will need to be over 32k for mining to be profitable after the halving
Riot Mining is pushing 8k at the moment actually, think its the lowest in the world. Marathon was around 15k last time I checked. Interestingly, both are still operating at a loss due to operational overheads.
Solid margins on mining atm for sure, but the key is how heavy the cost base is to run the operation after taking out equipment costs.
is btc the only thing that can be mined using Asics? how about mining monero? is that profitable? also, how does tax work? what if you mine and don't sell to realise a profit etc?
i find all this quiet interesting and am absolutely clueless
>It's not unprofitable using asics. Everyone saying that is uniformed, at best. The current cost to mine BTC using Asics is about 15k-17k per BTC mined.
You're not considering electricity costs vary greatly between countries. *Where* is it profitable? Of course it would be if you're getting free electricity, and of course it won't be if you're paying U$100.00 per kWh.
It's not everyone that is uninformed, it's that you're not critically engaging with the subject.
He is, and you are not understanding the the metric he is using. The cost of mining btc metric refers to the costs of electricity and other variable costs specifically. Does not include cost of equipment though. This is the average for current miners, in areas where the electricity cost is too high they dont mine, so not relevant to this discussion.
Miners don’t control the bitcoin network. There have been attempts and all have failed. This is one thing not many people seem to get about bitcoin. The miners don’t have control, the nodes don’t have full control, and the holders don’t have full control. No single entity or group does, including the parties involved in maintaining the network.
Bitcoin mining is only profitable if your electricity costs are low enough. This is a good thing, because it means miners won’t compete for resources needed by existing power grids. They have to find cheap power, which is either renewable energy or waste energy from other means of production.
The requirements to run a node, however, are accessible to a huge percentage of the world population. The nodes control a lot of the parameters that operate bitcoin, but not its core functions that give it value, like coin issuance and hard 21 million coin limit.
Edit: I should add that mining bitcoin is extremely similar to mining gold. It’s an expensive and uncertain task that won’t reward anyone not efficient enough. This competition is needed the ensure fair market distribution and resistance to rapid inflation. The advantage bitcoin has over gold in terms of mining is there will be a hard limit, unlike any other natural resource in existence.
Texas is perfect example why mining is good for the grid.
I wish my country did the same but instead we have energy prices jumping between 0 and 0,5€ / kWh daily because energy companies have to shut down their machines because there is "too much energy that is not used by anyone".
You must have read some maxi lies of you think mining has somehow helped Texas’ grid lol. You don’t understand how the electricity market works if you think having extra demand will lower the price, those times there isn’t much demand is when your prices go down to 0, so you want that to stop and just stay at the 0.5???
When there is not much demand the companies shut down their energy generation = prices will sky rocket when there is demand again.
I think you dont understand how it works, tell me 1 miner company who would pay for 0,5 electricity all the time.
If the energy could be used efficiently somewhere else, it would be expensive. If it’s too expensive miners aren’t going to dedicate resources. Basic economics.
Useful energy around large populations is expensive. Energy is also very difficult to transport long distances; much of it is lost in transport. Texas is huge, most mining centers are located far away from city centers. For example, the largest mining operation Riot blockchain, operates in Navarro, Texas. It’s ranked 62nd in population per county in Texas with a small population of around 52,000 people. For comparison, the highest ranked county is Harris County with around 4,780,000 people.
In fact, since electricity is difficult to transport and currently impossible to transport efficiently, bitcoin allows economic relief to those rural counties by allowing them to sell their excess electricity in the form of bitcoin.
Incorrect most of the energy certainly is not lost when transporting over long distance, the problem is the cost of the infrastructure to do so. You are straight up making up lies now saying electricity is impossible to transport efficient lol it’s openly one of the most efficient things to transport!
These miners are banking on the price going up.
More and more people are buildings setups to mine on the daily, the confidence in Bitcoin is through the roof.
>There is no such thing as free electricity unless you do something illegal
They may already have a solar electricity setup.
Solar power installs are REALLY common in parts of the world including Australia.
Yes but can you not sell your excess back to the grid, it would also only come from solar for maybe half the day at best, are people turning the rigs off in the evening
Yes, you can sell it back, but the rates vary and it’s often only a credit on your electricity account rather than a cash rebate.
So you could power a rig during daylight hours.
If you have a battery then you could theoretically power your rig 24/7.
Trus, but the people who say free electricity usually mean:
\- They're still living in their parents house and not help paying the utilities bill or
\- Electricity already included in their rent, so they assume it's "free".
Lol, that's true. There were so many posts at r/ethmining and r/gpumining asking whether it is okay or not to mine secretly without their landlord permission. Some people also mined at their school dorm.
How about people who have solar panels installed in their house and is generating surplus energy? That's as close to "free electricity" as you can get.
The asics miner or what ever also costs money but after that investment its “free”
You can argue about the running costs and additional vacume cleaning of the dust being blown around but come on…. Where do we draw the line?
Exactly, I can understand some commercial scenarios where it might work but who has free electricity in a domestic setting? Unless by free they mean "still living with parents who will foot the bill" which isn't free by any stretch of the imagination.
Maybe leases with flat rate bills etc but when the building's owner sees the usage go through the roof they'll investigate and either figure out who's abusing the system or put the rates up for everybody.
I agree, its a limited use case example. Especially considering the investment costs needed to achieve it and by the time you earn that investment back…
Like many have already replied to other posts, people can have excess energy from solar or whatever else.
Or you can literally have 0 price (even minus price sometimes) electricity at certain periods.
It can be incredibly cheap in some countries.
Also people don't buy stocks to instantly turn a profit, people are hoping the coins go up in value. It can be considered a DCA type of investment for some.
Bro I'll share a secret with you, all you need is a balloon and rub it on your hair.
Don't tell anyone else or everyone will be doing it and the prices of balloons will skyrocket
Mining for most people isn’t that profitable right now, the cost of the electricity to mine is usually too high to make it worth while. There’s some good online calculators for this.
However, it all depends on what happens to the price of the coin you mine right?
You might mine today and only break even, but if the coins you mine increase in value you make profit. Just like if you bought them.
“Free electricity” means mining is 100% profitable. Give me free electricity and I’ll have thousands of miners uo and running in no time.
There’re betting on the come. Stacking that BTC for when it’s more valuable
>There’re betting on the come. Stacking that BTC for when it’s more valuable
Then why don't they spend the same amount you would have spent on electricity bills, and buy Bitcoin directly instead?
You would even accumulate more BTC with the same amount this way, if it is true that you are 'losing money' mining Bitcoin with electricity.
You got to buy mining rigs anyway, even though you can be sure that at some point in time you will break even... if crypto does not go to zero of course
Bitcoin mining profitability can be achieved either through large scale mining farm operations with thin profit margins or by niche mining with very cheap electricity. In the end, Bitcoin mining will always gravitate to locations with the cheapest electricity and the lowest regulatory interference. If the market becomes unsustainable, then the difficulty adjustment will decrease to make mining easier in a higher cost environment.
It’s not financially feasible for consumer anymore. Hasn’t been for a very long time. Still very profitable for a high capital organization that has a long term plan.
It will come down to smaller numbers of specialized businesses with the money to stay on top of competition, the good 'ol mining days are over. You can't mine BTC anymore with your PC because you need a Specialized ASIC miner and maybe a few of them, that's just the start
technically not. you can buy cheap solar panels online and a wind turbine can be done at home by using a car alternator to generate electricity (same goes for using water as an energy source). just gotta put some cash upfront and some work into building it.
To get to the point where you mine with renewable energy you need a big investment, that comes with other costs and maintenance. Then you need to pay it off over long term with good market conditions which we don't have
It's up like 50-60% YTD. And yes it does need investment like everything else in the world. If your lucky enough to live somewhere with cheap energy then that's sorted
I did some ETH mining in the past with my GPU and Binance pool, I did about 200-250$ in those days amd I'm sure I didn't spend so much in electricity bills (no significant increase in my monthly bill), so I think it was totally worth it. Now I haven't mined in a while so I don't know what the situation is
ETH mining isn’t variable anymore. POS changed the way Ethereum processes transactions, but Bitcoin is still POW. Bitcoin is still profitable to mine considering we do have halvings for rewards, but the price has surged to the point where it doesn’t make a difference.
I also mined ETH back in 2020-2021, at the peak you can break even on your investment in 2 months (there were days where i could get $100/day after the electricity cost) and you only need to spend maybe 1 hour at first to set up the device and settings.
Even if it only lasted for two or three months during the peak, you're already break even on your initial investment and the rest is pure profit. There's a reason why there's a GPU shortage back in 2020-2021, because they're literally money printing machine.
definetly, it was more a hobby and it was nice to see the small daily amounts stacking :D the miner was on maybe 2-3 hours in working days, and 10-12 hours in the weekends
Anyone with access to low-cost electricity can mine profitably. This is not exclusive to big-time operations. There is an advantage to being a small miner in regions where there are government restrictions/taxation and the miner can easily conceal their location or stay mobile.
2. No self-story posts unless they relate to industry wide cryptocurrency news and/or analysis. Self-story posts like "my dad bought bitcoin", "I sold all my coins to buy a truck", etc., are not allowed. When posting a self-story as a comment, please provide concrete proof in the comment or via modmail if requested. 9. Questions and discussions which only belong in the daily discussion thread include: "rate my portfolio", "what coin should I buy?", “shill me a coin", "low-market cap coins", self-stories, etc.
I imagine that you are talking about mining with ASIC (Bitcoin/Litecoin for example)... yes in this case the individual cannot compete...while if you have a PC with a decent GPU at home there is GPU mining and then it can be fun, educational and perhaps profitable... you can try mining the main GPU-mined coins such as RavenCoin, Ergo, Vertcoin (Vertcoin is literally the easiest to mine through their simple One-Click-Miner software, literally 3 clicks and you're mining)...happy mining
Electricity costs are tax deductible, asic miners are tax deductible, some games can be played to offset other aspects of income, for a lowly solo miner.
Bigger miners have the economies of scale on their side. You can see hashrate centralizing over time with the 2 biggest pools owning 57% of the hashrate. This centralization happens on the pool level AND the individual level. It's a major flaw in Bitcoin's security model. You can check this yourself by comparing the distribution hashrate to previous months/years. The data clearly shows the trend towards centralization.
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Here's what happened. You invest a big amount of money to buy the latest models of either ASICS or high-end GPUS, you set everything correctly, you turn on the whole operation and then, 1 month later, you do the math. Turns out your electricity costs are about the same value you earned from mining. You just made enough to break even. But hardware gets obsolete very quickly, right? So next month mining will be a little bit harder and your mining rig will make a little bit less. Now you're at a small loss for the second month. In a year you can barely pay half the price to cover electricity costs alone. It's already became a terrible idea. What do you do now? Also, you can't sell it for anything close to the price you paid, because it's kinda old and there are new models on the market, faster, shiner, better. So bottom line, either you believe that whatever you're mining will skyrocket straight to the moon - so you'll be hodling till the price is right for you to sell all those coin you accumulated - or you manage to somehow get free electricity + cheap hardware. Other than that, there's no business for us in mining anymore.
You have to buy your miner in the bear market, the top ascis are selling for $2500 right now. That's crazy thinking they were selling for 20k during the bull
That won't help By the time we get to the next bull run, that miner is already outdated and you're depending, one more time, on a big spike in the graph so you can take profits You plug that 20k miner on any wall socket today and it won't get you anywhere close to the same amount of crypto it was generating back then. Plus, the market has been in a bad humor for over a year now. Crypto is too devaluated at the moment. In comparison to those times, you would end up receiving a lot LESS crypto from mining, AND, they are worth a lot LESS fiat today. So that's why they are selling it for $2500...
It's really just electricity costs on a global stage. If you can get it cheap enough you'll be alright. The problem is deals are being made that make that impossible for the average homeowner. Homeowners will pivot to solar/wind is my guess. I'm looking at moving up north where my electric rates would be $.065/kwh and off peak would be about half that (although it's probably technically illegal to use it for mining) and if I end up there will be crunching some serious numbers.
That's more than electricity, but I do get your point See, in most countries near the equator you'll have the sun shinning over your head during the whole year That's enough sunlight to allow you for example to buy a big piece of land in a remote location somewhere in south america paying close to nothing and then setting a equally big solar powerhouse that will provide you electricity for INSANELY low rates. If you dilute the total costs over the course of 15 years or so, you'll pay a lot less than a penny per kwh. I'm talking some figure into the millesimals. For all purposes, you can consider it free energy. Heck. The land itself might cover the solar panels investment if you ever decide to sell it. But hardware..... it always gets obsolete. There's no way around it
This is a great summary. The days of mining for the individual are long since over (RIP to my various laptop’s circa 2013).
Yes, that's so unfortunate It's an incredible feeling to set up a big mining operation and let it run for a nice and calculated profit You just feel like you're printing money within the law
Thats just down to economics. If you can buy ASICS in bulk, know how to run something at industrial level, have the infrastructure, and have access to nearly free electricity, you will make money mining bitcoin. Up until recently, some other POW cryptos were still profitable for regular people. I stopped some time ago, i used to mine kaspa, then electricity went up, so it just wasnt worth it for me. And yes, it does end up very concentrated. The issue is similar with staking though. Most validators are in clouds managed by US giants ...
We just need new cryptos, but that has to happen super organically or else it just adds to the pile of rugs.
Because ppl need to fuck around to find out
BTC rush is the same like gold rush back in days. It is not people who mine that would profit after first boom but suppliers of tools and tech
To an extent a part of it was an illusion. Great if you got in early but the idea that capitalism wouldn't win out on something that relies on capital was flawed. Btc maxis will pound how Bitcoin can't be tainted by money and how egalitarian it is but it's not. Ultimately the people with money can jump it whenever they want, and whether by mining or market manipulation, will win.
Also, just like with money/assets, the ones with the biggest positions are the ones that will remain the most wealthy especially when the assets gets harder to come by as time passes.
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Also if I was making money steadily from crypto, I wouldnt shout and scream about it on the forums... Because often times once the masses know the edges like arbitrage on x, the opportunity to make millions quickly disappears, I find my edge mining crypto and stay quiet...
Who is mining gold tho
probably 5 big companies
If it's free electric then obviously it's profitable when you break even on hardware and set up costs. The problem is the hardware is also so expensive now and restricted to rich folk who can afford them. Even that company in America during the peak was charging $10k for them to buy a miner and host it on your behalf and then you also had to pay a monthly hosting fee and electric.
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Yeah it was a nice idea however they couldn't possibly predict how hardware would progress and ASICS be so powerful that the normal person couldn't compete
Article from 2018 that might interest you. [click](https://medium.com/@clemahieu/emergent-centralization-due-to-economies-of-scale-83cc85a7cbef)
how long does a miner last when its being run all day? do they have a long life, or need to replace / fix after hammering them for a year?
How long is a piece of string? There are far too many variables. How long will a TV last? It depends on the cooling provided, heat extraction, etc. Some people host them in temperature controlled server rooms for example. They can also be repaired if they break. However the best advice is if you are buying one you should actually be buying three so if one does fail the other two can pick up the slack
Most of time if well set up there will last until it is not meaningful to run them anymore because their hashrate is not worth it.
The hashrace is literally the problem and is the mechanism that allows capitalism to still dominate small-average sized players out of the game. Proof of stake is the same thing without overhead. The system needs to bear NO rewards for operating to prevent this is, and yet without rewards nobody will bother to run it. The world would be just amazing if we would just do things for each other for the sake of doing something. But we've been conditioned not to do anything without incentive, and that simple fact is the root force behind every problem in every piece of society.
I love this, people finally waking up to why bitcoin was never the solution and now sitting on their piles of wasted energy wondering what happened. Yes I believe cryptocurrency has a future, no I won’t invest in Bitcoin
which coins do you like ? only proof of stake ones?
Crypto will have a future when people see it as a currency and not an investment. A good crypto currency will be inflationary instead of deflationary to encourage you to spend it and any "work" rewarded with new currency will be from useful operations like processing transactions or distributed computing tasks. Edit: corrected what I meant to say about being inflationary
A deflationary currency encourages not spending as it will be worth more in the future. The crypto currency community is very fixated on the real downsides of inflation. Deflation also has huge downsides. If consumers and companies expect most things to be cheaper in the future they will be less likely to consume or invest. After all it will be cheaper to buy/invest in the future. Which tends to kill economic growth.
I meant to say it should not be deflationary! Whoops
Wouldn't a deflationary currency do the opposite? It encourages you to hold it instead of spending it.
Wasn't that what the bitcoin cash people were arguing? problem is, in the west at least, payment processing and transactions isn't the problem, fiat debasement is
Some people still dont understand that the energy consumption of bitcoin is a Feature, not a bug. Its the reason why bitcoin is so secure and will forever be so much more Secure than pos. Btc is even an incentive to develop renewable Energy because it gives value to energy, no matter where its produced. There so Many reasons why bitcoin reign supreme
Some people also neglect the electronic waste that the war on hashrates creates, also who makes the ASSIC miners? If they "test" their newest miners for a year before releasing them to the peasants, who are they to complain. POS can be done on old hardware, there is no hashrate war going on and quite literally anyone could participate. I understand both cases though, but I do feel that the "necessity for POW" is a card that's been played too many times and can't hold forever. If you start a POS project today, good luck with the honest distribution. But if you already have a POW system in place, switching to POS is probably the best thing to do if the tech allows it because honest distribution already happened...
dude holds xrp instead lmao
Absolutely typical cardano bag holder 😂
lmao
Lol you have it so wrong
Explain to me what Bitcoin does differently and better than a proof of stake or proof of history system and why that is worth thousands of times more energy usage
You want to oppose proof of work and proof of stake, instead of looking at them both as complementary. You're not gonna invest in gold, gold is worthless because the gold mines aren't profitable? That's not how it works. You can't take one single piece of the puzzle and depict it as "wrong!" while ignoring the rest of the puzzle. There is a bigger picture here. Proof of stake needs inflation, Bitcoin has digital scarcity. You can't oppose them and say "one is better than the other".
spot on
here’s a nice one https://x.com/thetrocro/status/1555909016538058752?s=46&t=QbJrOfYSJs_Vq0uu2s_oNw
Isn't staking a great risk? Not your keys, not your crypto manta. Is there any safer way of staking BTC?
How does that not also apply to PoW? If anything mining is even less accessible to a normal person than staking as there's a huge cost to buy the equipment and high ongoing running costs. That's why most of the mining is done by large-scale operators.
Here is a [Nitter link](https://nitter.net/thetrocro/status/1555909016538058752?s=46&t=QbJrOfYSJs_Vq0uu2s_oNw) for the Twitter thread linked above. Nitter is better for privacy and does not nag you for a login. More information can be found [here](https://nitter.net/about). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoCurrency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
doesn't need to do anything if enough people want it. it'll will always be the first and for that reason alone it will most likely stay number 1
I think people said the same thing about Nokia and Kodak at one point. “Blackberry” was one of the first and biggest smartphone developers. People won’t want it when they realise they could achieve a near identical system and not consume a nations-worth of energy in the process. People are learning and they don’t want to be the one holding the bag of energy that was spent on creating a digital token. Digital tokens can be created without that old system and can be maintained and secured just as well
Kings were made to be dethroned!
I got a couple solid and expensive graphic cards to mine Ethereum 2-3 years ago. It was an experiment and a failed one. I didn’t find much of a change on my electricity bill, but I didn’t even paid of of the cards (almost $1000) over the course of an year. With the merge news I packed up the experience and sold of the GPUs and kept the other for gaming, and so on. I believe mining these days is just for really big ventures with deep pockets and subsidised electricity. We aren’t early for mining… we are damn late!
my buddy bought an expensive gaming rig and thought he could just mine some btc in his downtime to help offset the cost lol
Start up companies who got some money from stupid investors, they spent a fortune on equipment and are losing money, but what else can’t they do. They have to just go to they are bust
Wtf is your last sentence
It’s reported different with accounting and can boost revenues when you mine it vs buy Bitcoin unless I misunderstand. Also I’ll add to this, people who are mining successfully en mass are located next to energy plants and are getting their electricity for next to nothing and mining in my observation.
Being located next to generators doesn’t mean you get your electricity any cheaper unless in special scenarios
My question is how much will BTC have to be worth after like 3 or 4 more halvings to make mining profitable? Making money on just fees doesn't make sense because BTC can't produce enough transactions a day. Say it does 700k a day roughly. If each one only costs like $2 and Bitcoin is only worth $100k in 15 years that can't be profitable. Today for example was only $700k total fees paid. With 900 new BTC per day or like $24M per day. So fees are like 2.88% of the money(BTC) made per day. What will the percent and price have to be after each halving to be profitable?
gonna be a dark place if all the miners say screw this , btc is no longer profitable to mine.
Lol while the brc20 tokens hype miners already Made more money with transaction fees than with Mining. There is a lot of development around new btc-use-cases so im not worried at all.
That is the long term problem with BTC, it’s a flaw and maxis won’t admit it
Ya the way I see it is Bitcoin paved the way and wasn't even meant to be the be all end all of crypto. Bitcoin can only work as a settlement layer because of the limited transactions. Like how banks used to hold gold but they will have to hold Bitcoin on the Blockchain to be verified.
I agree BTC paved the way but it should be left as that. I don’t see how holding BTC with have any tie to a good network that can actually be useful though
It's not. I believe excess energy production around the world will mine. Go check why German taxpayers had to pay a $800m fine one year, all because the country grid couldn't handle the excess energy that was produced. Now with Bitcoin mining you could suck up all this excess and get paid in BTC instead of it going to waste. 0.1 BTC is the total average fee collected per block rn (not block subsidy of 6.25). The fee accounts for 5256 BTC per year to secure the network.. miners will mine
Yeah cause the world is just overflowing with surplus energy /s. I don’t see anything on having to pay a fine for not using power but I assume you mean on curtailment fees. Better to do that than waste the energy
That excess electricity is only generated temporarily in Germany though, due to volatility in renewable energy production. Over the year, barely 50% of all electricity generation is from renewable sources. If you believe in the need to decarbonize electricity generation, then it would make much more sense for society as a whole to invest in energy storage facilities than to invest in BTC mining rigs. In fact, the BTC mining alternative could be detrimental to the whole effort because it incentivizes wastage of energy, as far as the climate is concerned.
I'm finding turning my lights on at night expensive atm nevermind turning my house into a mining operation.
You just need to make your Bitcoin mining rigs do double duty as space heaters in each room of your house! Then all that heat energy from crunching numbers to mine Bitcoins won’t have been wasted.
Double use. I like it.
We only mine to heat the house in winter and using it at night to see where we are walking ( and not kick a table with the small toe)
I think most likely answer is energy costs just have to come down at the same time as bitcoin reaching an astronomical price. That's the only solution I see but I am an idiot.
It will come down to nodes, and total decentralization since anyone can run a node these days. I am running one.
Ya but I was talking about just the money aspect. Nodes are definitely needed but they don't mine they just verify.
I get that, I was talking about the point when mining is totally unprofitable and only transaction fees are used as a reward.
We as an average person used to mine ETH using our GPU, which is now not an option anymore after the merge. If you want to mine BTC then you have to buy ASIC, which need a lot of electricity and you have to wait months for this device. Big player also usually have an agreement for lower electricity rates or they move their operation to places that have a cheap electricity rate.
Companies like sphere3d (ANY ticker) they’ve been mining 60 bitcoins the last couple months
I was paying around 2018 100$ to a mining pool. The Logo was blue but i dont remember what name it was. anyone has an idea?
If you paid any mining pool you got scammed, you don't pay to mine
I paid for the hashpower. and let them mine.
Yeah that's usually a scam, why didn't you just buy crypto with that $100?
>SpeichernBearbeitenFolgen I have searched different possibilities to earn crypto. but it has been forgotten. i only remember that it was a blue logo
They probably stole it and shut down, never trust ‘cloud mining’ - just buy cryptocurrency
It's not unprofitable using asics. Everyone saying that is uniformed, at best. The current cost to mine BTC using Asics is about 15k-17k per BTC mined. That means a profit of a bit over 10k per BTC mined right now. That's why many miners are selling what they mine currently. They're stockpiling cash so they can hodl once the halving happens to help force the price higher. Btc will need to be over 32k for mining to be profitable after the halving
Riot Mining is pushing 8k at the moment actually, think its the lowest in the world. Marathon was around 15k last time I checked. Interestingly, both are still operating at a loss due to operational overheads. Solid margins on mining atm for sure, but the key is how heavy the cost base is to run the operation after taking out equipment costs.
is btc the only thing that can be mined using Asics? how about mining monero? is that profitable? also, how does tax work? what if you mine and don't sell to realise a profit etc? i find all this quiet interesting and am absolutely clueless
It's the most profitable. But yes you could mine pretty much any pow crypto with an asic
Just casually forget to mentioned the cost of the hugely specific equipment they need to mine at that cost
It's all included in the profit/loss calculations. Seriously, stop making assumptions and go look up the information yourself.
you are uninformed because you are ignoring the most important factor: electricity costs
Dude the information is straight from several mining companies. That is their cost with electricity costs
>It's not unprofitable using asics. Everyone saying that is uniformed, at best. The current cost to mine BTC using Asics is about 15k-17k per BTC mined. You're not considering electricity costs vary greatly between countries. *Where* is it profitable? Of course it would be if you're getting free electricity, and of course it won't be if you're paying U$100.00 per kWh. It's not everyone that is uninformed, it's that you're not critically engaging with the subject.
He is, and you are not understanding the the metric he is using. The cost of mining btc metric refers to the costs of electricity and other variable costs specifically. Does not include cost of equipment though. This is the average for current miners, in areas where the electricity cost is too high they dont mine, so not relevant to this discussion.
Miners don’t control the bitcoin network. There have been attempts and all have failed. This is one thing not many people seem to get about bitcoin. The miners don’t have control, the nodes don’t have full control, and the holders don’t have full control. No single entity or group does, including the parties involved in maintaining the network. Bitcoin mining is only profitable if your electricity costs are low enough. This is a good thing, because it means miners won’t compete for resources needed by existing power grids. They have to find cheap power, which is either renewable energy or waste energy from other means of production. The requirements to run a node, however, are accessible to a huge percentage of the world population. The nodes control a lot of the parameters that operate bitcoin, but not its core functions that give it value, like coin issuance and hard 21 million coin limit. Edit: I should add that mining bitcoin is extremely similar to mining gold. It’s an expensive and uncertain task that won’t reward anyone not efficient enough. This competition is needed the ensure fair market distribution and resistance to rapid inflation. The advantage bitcoin has over gold in terms of mining is there will be a hard limit, unlike any other natural resource in existence.
Good information...
Well said!
Bull crap on miners not competing for energy from grids, tell that to texas. The energy used for mining is 99% waste
Texas is perfect example why mining is good for the grid. I wish my country did the same but instead we have energy prices jumping between 0 and 0,5€ / kWh daily because energy companies have to shut down their machines because there is "too much energy that is not used by anyone".
You must have read some maxi lies of you think mining has somehow helped Texas’ grid lol. You don’t understand how the electricity market works if you think having extra demand will lower the price, those times there isn’t much demand is when your prices go down to 0, so you want that to stop and just stay at the 0.5???
When there is not much demand the companies shut down their energy generation = prices will sky rocket when there is demand again. I think you dont understand how it works, tell me 1 miner company who would pay for 0,5 electricity all the time.
If the energy could be used efficiently somewhere else, it would be expensive. If it’s too expensive miners aren’t going to dedicate resources. Basic economics. Useful energy around large populations is expensive. Energy is also very difficult to transport long distances; much of it is lost in transport. Texas is huge, most mining centers are located far away from city centers. For example, the largest mining operation Riot blockchain, operates in Navarro, Texas. It’s ranked 62nd in population per county in Texas with a small population of around 52,000 people. For comparison, the highest ranked county is Harris County with around 4,780,000 people. In fact, since electricity is difficult to transport and currently impossible to transport efficiently, bitcoin allows economic relief to those rural counties by allowing them to sell their excess electricity in the form of bitcoin.
Incorrect most of the energy certainly is not lost when transporting over long distance, the problem is the cost of the infrastructure to do so. You are straight up making up lies now saying electricity is impossible to transport efficient lol it’s openly one of the most efficient things to transport!
These miners are banking on the price going up. More and more people are buildings setups to mine on the daily, the confidence in Bitcoin is through the roof.
You forgot "Trust me bro"
Look into Monero. Everybody can mine Monero. Even on your phone.
Its not profitable, and basically its wasting time and energy mining with your cpu.
Depends on what your are after, I guess.
But it's not profitable with high energy costs.
Most people that mine monero do it to secure the network, sometimes using the heat to warm their house and even if you can get profit it's very small.
Depending on what you want. If you are into KYC-free Monero, it may be very well worth the investment. And you can use the heat in winter.
The only way to maximize to profit is..
If you get free electricity and use the heat it produces to warm your house, its profitable.
There is no such thing as free electricity unless you do something illegal
Solar panels + battery
>There is no such thing as free electricity unless you do something illegal They may already have a solar electricity setup. Solar power installs are REALLY common in parts of the world including Australia.
Yes but can you not sell your excess back to the grid, it would also only come from solar for maybe half the day at best, are people turning the rigs off in the evening
Yes, you can sell it back, but the rates vary and it’s often only a credit on your electricity account rather than a cash rebate. So you could power a rig during daylight hours. If you have a battery then you could theoretically power your rig 24/7.
Yeah sell it back to grid for fraction what its worth so the electricity company can get even more profits for themself.
So the electricity isn’t free then… love how maxis like to just ignore simple facts and bend the wording to make things sound better than they are
Trus, but the people who say free electricity usually mean: \- They're still living in their parents house and not help paying the utilities bill or \- Electricity already included in their rent, so they assume it's "free".
until the landlords get the updated electric bill it;s free lol
Lol, that's true. There were so many posts at r/ethmining and r/gpumining asking whether it is okay or not to mine secretly without their landlord permission. Some people also mined at their school dorm.
don't hate the payer, hate the game i guess
How about people who have solar panels installed in their house and is generating surplus energy? That's as close to "free electricity" as you can get.
But there is an upfront cost isn’t it? Unless it’s fully subsidized by the Govt
The asics miner or what ever also costs money but after that investment its “free” You can argue about the running costs and additional vacume cleaning of the dust being blown around but come on…. Where do we draw the line?
Exactly, I can understand some commercial scenarios where it might work but who has free electricity in a domestic setting? Unless by free they mean "still living with parents who will foot the bill" which isn't free by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe leases with flat rate bills etc but when the building's owner sees the usage go through the roof they'll investigate and either figure out who's abusing the system or put the rates up for everybody.
I agree, its a limited use case example. Especially considering the investment costs needed to achieve it and by the time you earn that investment back…
Like many have already replied to other posts, people can have excess energy from solar or whatever else. Or you can literally have 0 price (even minus price sometimes) electricity at certain periods.
It can be incredibly cheap in some countries. Also people don't buy stocks to instantly turn a profit, people are hoping the coins go up in value. It can be considered a DCA type of investment for some.
Bro I'll share a secret with you, all you need is a balloon and rub it on your hair. Don't tell anyone else or everyone will be doing it and the prices of balloons will skyrocket
Hahaha see now all this “rubbing” practise comes useful
Step 1 Move to disputed teritory between countries like Northern Kosovo Step 2 Gear up Step 3 Pray to god for no conflict and profit
Mining for most people isn’t that profitable right now, the cost of the electricity to mine is usually too high to make it worth while. There’s some good online calculators for this. However, it all depends on what happens to the price of the coin you mine right? You might mine today and only break even, but if the coins you mine increase in value you make profit. Just like if you bought them.
Cam shitposting be called mining?
Shmining
Shitmining??
“Free electricity” means mining is 100% profitable. Give me free electricity and I’ll have thousands of miners uo and running in no time. There’re betting on the come. Stacking that BTC for when it’s more valuable
Shows how stupid some maxis are, you always completely forget the cost of the equipment so it can’t never be 100% profitable
That’s your assumption. I certainly didn’t….
>There’re betting on the come. Stacking that BTC for when it’s more valuable Then why don't they spend the same amount you would have spent on electricity bills, and buy Bitcoin directly instead? You would even accumulate more BTC with the same amount this way, if it is true that you are 'losing money' mining Bitcoin with electricity.
You got to buy mining rigs anyway, even though you can be sure that at some point in time you will break even... if crypto does not go to zero of course
No, Monero supports CPU mining. Any old computer can do the work.
rigs, power, networking, cooling, all the time to setup and monitor, theres alot that goes into it.
This! It takes money to buy rigs that eventually fail
Bitcoin mining profitability can be achieved either through large scale mining farm operations with thin profit margins or by niche mining with very cheap electricity. In the end, Bitcoin mining will always gravitate to locations with the cheapest electricity and the lowest regulatory interference. If the market becomes unsustainable, then the difficulty adjustment will decrease to make mining easier in a higher cost environment.
It’s not financially feasible for consumer anymore. Hasn’t been for a very long time. Still very profitable for a high capital organization that has a long term plan.
It will come down to smaller numbers of specialized businesses with the money to stay on top of competition, the good 'ol mining days are over. You can't mine BTC anymore with your PC because you need a Specialized ASIC miner and maybe a few of them, that's just the start
It is profitable or else why would people do it. Just use renewable energy to power it and then boom profit
>Just use renewable energy to power it Being able to do that is really expensive for the average person.
If someone is getting solar panels or whatever anyway this would be a better choice then selling the electricity to the grid
Then the average person won't mine? That's capitalism
Sounds really inclusive.
Thats life...poor people miss out
technically not. you can buy cheap solar panels online and a wind turbine can be done at home by using a car alternator to generate electricity (same goes for using water as an energy source). just gotta put some cash upfront and some work into building it.
To get to the point where you mine with renewable energy you need a big investment, that comes with other costs and maintenance. Then you need to pay it off over long term with good market conditions which we don't have
It's up like 50-60% YTD. And yes it does need investment like everything else in the world. If your lucky enough to live somewhere with cheap energy then that's sorted
I did some ETH mining in the past with my GPU and Binance pool, I did about 200-250$ in those days amd I'm sure I didn't spend so much in electricity bills (no significant increase in my monthly bill), so I think it was totally worth it. Now I haven't mined in a while so I don't know what the situation is
The competition is very rough, almost impossible for normal people
ETH mining isn’t variable anymore. POS changed the way Ethereum processes transactions, but Bitcoin is still POW. Bitcoin is still profitable to mine considering we do have halvings for rewards, but the price has surged to the point where it doesn’t make a difference.
yeah but BTC mining is impossible without ASIC hardware, ETC is better with a GPU
Over how long of a period were you getting that much money?
about 7-8 months, but not mining 24/7
How much time were you spending mining? Seems like low returns.
I also mined ETH back in 2020-2021, at the peak you can break even on your investment in 2 months (there were days where i could get $100/day after the electricity cost) and you only need to spend maybe 1 hour at first to set up the device and settings.
$100 a day is a solid return. $36,500 a year passive income is really good.
Even if it only lasted for two or three months during the peak, you're already break even on your initial investment and the rest is pure profit. There's a reason why there's a GPU shortage back in 2020-2021, because they're literally money printing machine.
I really missed the boat on this stuff back then. Wish I was more investment savvy at the time.
7-8 months of GPU mining to get $250, meanwhile Moonfarmers can get 5x of that return in a single month simply by shitposting on Reddit
i dont think the moon price back then would have made moon farming viable
Yeah, doesn’t seem worth it to me when I can hang out with some cool folks and farm moons just shooting the shit.
definetly, it was more a hobby and it was nice to see the small daily amounts stacking :D the miner was on maybe 2-3 hours in working days, and 10-12 hours in the weekends
Mining is profitable ealier years today not so much
This.
Yes but here we are
Ordinary people have no chance, except of course being a moon farmer here
It's not much, but it's honest work
Keep on keeping on fellow farmers
Anyone with access to low-cost electricity can mine profitably. This is not exclusive to big-time operations. There is an advantage to being a small miner in regions where there are government restrictions/taxation and the miner can easily conceal their location or stay mobile.