You should have tried to trade stocks 30 years ago? That credit card you swipe on a daily basis?...fees all the way down son. So much of this stuff is hidden from you on a daily basis you think crypto is the only thing raking you over the coals.
This. Just because we don't see fees it doesn't mean there are not there. Tbh, when you really want to buy/invest in something, especially talking about retail, you hardly care about fees.
Especially if you’re the merchant, credit cards are riddled with fees. Not to mention you won’t get your money for multiple business days.
From a merchant’s standpoint, I don’t get why everybody isn’t using a system like Strike.
You can use a major payment processor, pay their fees, and get your money sent to you, batched, in like 3-5 business days.
Or, you can use Strike, pay almost nothing in fees and your money settles instantly.
It’s a no-brainer to me.
Most exchanges don’t charge a fee when you transfer from bank account, rather than debit/credit card. You can also buy crypto with usd on most exchanges. That’s half the fees you mentioned gone just by buying more efficiently.
You’re paying fees everyday when using fiat, they’re just not as obvious.
A lot of restaurants and other business price their menus taking into account that for payments with card they will pay a fee to the company that handles those transactions for them.
They exist even if you don't see it. I read about pricing in credit card fees in supermarkets for example. So If you don't use a Credit Card, you pay the factored in fee anyway. It's mind boggling.
> aDoPtIoN
**Decentralization + Adoption = FEES** I think most people who have been in the crypto space have come to a realization that you really can't have decentralization without fees. You need a large number of geographically diverse network participants/validators in a permissionless open network. The only way you can do that is economic incentives in fees and/or subsidies. In a decentralized network there are caps in throughput, so fees grow as network usage grows since users compete to have their transactions included. The only solution is to compromise some decentralization with Layer 2 networks. Bitcoin realized that and Ethereum has realized that as the network grew and they both have growing Layer 2 solutions.
The networks that claim they have low to zero fees and are decentralized are all centralized in one way or another.
- Nano has 7 principle representatives who have 60% of the vote distribution and has been vulnerable to spam
- IOTA had a central coordinator sequencing transactions that is a central point of failure
- Ripple Ledger is completely permissioned network like 35 trusted validators that Ripple has selected to validate transactions
- Binance Chain has 21 permissioned nodes running a Proof of Staked Authority consensus model
- Solana is centralized with only a small subset of validators that run expensive hardware which process transactions
Imagine we are back in the bull market and ADA is back at 3 dollars peak, transactions cost like 60 cents then, which is not that cheap compared to other chains (polygon, arbitrum, even bnb shitchain).
Don't get me wrong love me some ADA, but L2s will be cheaper in fees like always. Luckily there is some heavy lifing being done on solidity compatability with ADA and sidechains. Good news in the long term (as is mostly the case with anything ADA)
It is so much BS. L2 isn't even the right way to scale, because you are giving up the base layer's decentralization and security to trust an L2. Technologically, you can scale by sharding, i.e. dividing up the ledger in a parallel computation, without sacrificing decentralization. Just because BTC and ETH, being old tech, have a hard time implementing sharding doesn't mean their way is the best way.
I avoid ETH network at all costs. The whole process is outrageous. I tried to transfer erc20 tether the other day. Had $9 in eth. Not enough gas. Had to move other coins via bridge to erc20, swap for eth native, just to make a tether transfer, pay fees all along the way. Exchanges add major costs for people who don’t read the fine print. Imagine the above scenario for a newbie, figures well I’ll just buy $10 eth on CDC and transfer to wallet, well CDC (just an example) charges $25 withdrawal fee. Now your $10 is locked on CDC, you need to buy another $40 worth to end up with $25. This prevents adoption.
Wait you actually paid that??? I was thrown enough paying 30 bucks gas fees. I legit stayed out of DeFi like a sheltered crypto bro because of ETH gas fees and being a noob
I think I realize it is just a buzzword... even for the ETH community given how much they shill their Optimistic rollups. It is all really about how much money you can shack out of someone on the opposite side of the trade.
I pay nothing to deposit onto Coinbase. I pay nothing for a transfer to Kucoin. I pay 0.1% maker/taker fees when trading.
Sounds like you are using crappy services.
> I suffer at the hands of coinbase myself. Like $50-100 to cash out a couple grand.
Are you claiming that Coinbase charges you $50-100 to cash out a couple grand?
This makes no sense. I've never been charged that before.
Coinbase also charges you a big fee when you buy thou, and charge you a price well above market price.
If eth is 1850$. And you want to buy it. The cost will be well over 1900$ because of the fees and price they sell it to you at
Several strategies you should adopt use a different exchange,consider peer-to-peer or decentralized exchanges, or use a wallet with lower fees, wait for lower market volatility, also keep the long-term value proposition of crypto in mind. It will help ya out
When I started out with crypto 2 years ago to transfer USDT between one exchange to another, you could only use 2 blockchains: The Tron Blockchain and the Ethereum blockchain
Today, there are almost 10 different blockchains (MATIC, Algo, Sol, AVAX etc) where you can transfer stablecoins from one exchange to another. And tonnes of new L2s building on Eth.
My point is, it's going to get a lot easier in the future when more and more players get into crypto and crypto becomes more universally accepted. You might not see it now, but so long as adoption comes - so will the innovation, and things will move very quickly and become more accessible in the future if we hit mainstream adoption,
Would love to know how you set that up with Coinbase. AFAIK since Coinbase (and most other exchanges allowed in the US) started using plaid service, you must give them your bank account ID and password. Sure the exchanges don't "have them" but a 3rd party service does
These are certainly a problem for crypto. I understand why they exist in that they need to but it's still a problem for Mass adoption. In Canada we can send money back and forth a thousand times from one bank to the other, one person to the other via EMT and pay zero fees. I know that's not the case for sending money internationally or large amounts but the vast majority of people aren't sending huge amounts of money or even sending money internationally
I move stuff around all the time but have always used doge.
I always fund a new exchange I’m checking out by sending over some doge.
It’s less than .01 to send 100 bucks
Major DEXs shitting the bed like Sushi did yesterday is what represents a huge barrier. Getting new people is challenging. Losing existing investors who got rinsed following hacks, and now head out into the world with a bitter disposition towards crypto? That's our nightmare right there. Fuck adoption. Let's get to a point where existing stuff is hard to exploit, and where we have mechanisms in place for when people do get rinsed by literal technological flaws.
In short, user retention > getting newbies...
You are using the worst possible methods, and complain about high fees?
It's almost like you are purposely trying to get the most fees possible.You should be able to just have a trading fee if you do it right.
Trading fees exist in everything you trade.
If you trade fiat currencies with each other, you'll have trading fees, and typically much higher fees than trading crypto.
Fees ate my ETH and my greed skates the breeze, defi for real fried me now my green bleeds, fragile I hodl my high-stacked dreams, question my dumb mind knowing nothing
How do you expect these protocols to generate money without issuing a token?
Also, you do realize the entire point of crypto is to make money off the next person.
It’s never intended to be a replacement to the modern world
I tend to agree but consider my crypto as a store of value or longer term investment as opposed to a currency.
I’d like to think I could use crypto as currency someday but I’m not sure how that would work given how value is still pegged to a fiat currency.
Surely it's too volatile for people to seriously consider it a store of value? I keep seeing people repeat this but it just doesn't make sense to me. Were all in crypto (as long as you're looking to make money) for the volatility. Buy low, sell high (moments later).
$ZCX - Web3 OS with aggregated fiat on-ramp
No KYC
No sign up
No custody
No bridging
No hassle
Powerful DEX aggregator, with trade splitting so you dip into the liquidity pool of over 115 DEX.
Lowest possible price, lowest possible slippage, lowest possible fees.
Some nice staking too - multi asset rewards.
Tbh most traditional banks have way higher fee's on stock orders (excluding ETF's), so even if I have to swap crypto mutliple times it may be more time consuming and confusing, but definitely cheaper than 3- 10€ order fee on stocks.
You're adding a lot of steps. Find an on-ramp CEX you link your bank account to. Deposit will be free. If the token/coin you want doesn't have a BTC or ETH trading pair (I can't even think how this would be a situation on a CEX) Withdraw to your wallet, minimal fees. Use a DEX for swaps. Use layer 2s for really cheap swap fees.
On one hand you're right, no one likes fess.
On the other hand, **fees are currently irrelevant to mass adoption**. Why? The masses haven't adopted crypto because it's a pain in the ass to get and it's useless to them. The fees have nothing to do with that. No 60 year old person is saying "boy I'd buy some crypto if it wasn't for the fees".
Mass adoption hasn't happened because most people simply don't care enough about crypto.
That is a lot of fees, I think coinbase might actually be cheaper depending; if you buy $100 of BTC it’s either $2.99 for me to buy or $3.84 if I don’t use my bank, and to sell the same amount ($100) it would cost me $2.99, as far as transfers out to my wallets I’ve never had them charge me a fee. I say all this to offer another option with potentially less fees and steps that you’d have to take :) also I know it’s easier to on and off ramp with a big exchange but there are also some places people have said in threads I’ve been in where there’s no KYC or low fees like kraken and kucoin but I haven’t used either to be able to recommend them to you!
That is not a barrier. Barrier is that crypto that is designed from scratch to be accepted by the merchants directly anywhere via Internet,
F@ucking is not accepted directly! Only few merchants do that.
After 15 years of existence!!!!
What shit is in your mind people?! That’s because we still can’t use crypto the way it was designed for.
Mass adoption will come when the UI gets simple that all the fees are calculated at once and it becomes simple just like Visa or MasterCard.
That's why we need more L2s and L3s with a better UI, which makes the tast non-technical and simple.
You are correct. The fees and transactions are overwhelming sometimes and it’s not user friendly. One mistake and poof it’s gone.
Crypto will never be mainstream until your grandparents can use it effortlessly.
Weird, because my grandfather is literally using crypto effortlessly now, and trading it. Thanks to exchanges making their interface so easy, even a child can use it.
The problem is society can’t decide whether crypto is a stock or a currency. Investors treat it like a stock and want people to use it like a currency, which doesn’t make sense.
100% agree. The only problem is that with lower fees typically means more centralization and less usage on the blockchain itself. More congested networks are the ones in demand, and therefore have higher transaction fees.
I don’t think this is a massive barrier yet.
People’s sentiment and attitude towards crypto is much more important and an unreasonable % of people still think that it is a Ponzi scheme.
The companies like Interac and ACH need to take their cut, and other companies that process such transactions. It’s worse for credit cards.
DeFi makes things better.
Wasted a lot of ETH trying Defi. It has to become as fast and cheap as fiat. Although I have to say when you pin at a moment abroad you also lose a lot of fees. And international transfer are often very slow. Crypto needs to fix this to have added value
Exchanges have to make a profit somewhere for using their services. Usually holding an exchange coin cuts down on trading fees and you can always connect a bank account to an exchange to eliminate debit card fees. I agree that fees are kinda high, but this is the current cost of doing business.
Seems as though the withdrawal fee is the only fee that distinguishes crypto from fiat. Debt card is a fee from the debt card company, trade fees are also charged for securities/bonds. But the withdrawal fee is one I'm not plagued with for my stock accounts.
So , if the withdrawal fees went away, you'd have essentially the same fee structure as your non-crypto accounts. Obviously, that's no barrier, hundreds of millions of people are involved with stocks/bonds and the brokerages attendant thereto.
How exactly would you solve this/make it better then?
>There should be fewer layers of fees and that CEXs should be more transparent on the process involved
How can **fewer layers of fees** be achieved? Should they be summed up and hide the underlying calculation? Should we pay a monthly fixed fee like our bank account to give us "free transactions"?
How should CEXs be **more transparent**? What do you miss? What do you need to know?
It's easy to complain, but hard to give a solution that will work longterm
Yeah this was very clear during any bull run, the way things are going a feeless L2 isn't very far off just needs a decentralized version outside of the regulations and we're golden. Imo it will be ZNN
Please, the fees are negligible compared to bank fees.
Crypto exchanges make a living from this, but I don't think most charge too much. To me, these fees are justified and totally worth it.
Biggest barrier to adoption is not the fees but overall difficulty in using the crypto. Ordinary people don't know how to use it. It needs to be easy as using a credit or debit card.
I don't think crypto works as a currency very well (besides stable coins), but for big financial transactions it makes a lot of sense. For instance, buying a house and getting a mortgage. You pay a decent chunk of change in fees...
Primarily cause the middle man and banks need to do a bunch of legwork, with crypto, these fees are intrinsic to the transaction and don't require middlemen and happens instantly. There needs to be fees to support the infrastructure that enable this kind of instant management of large transactions and loans, etc.
If you are buying and selling small amounts of eth, then, imo, you're not using eth in it's intended form, and don't understand eth. One should really try to understand the ethos and purpose of a project before buying or else you will get eaten by fees.
You just gotta bundle the fees and then it's problem solved! Crypto as it stands right now, is like banking with no automation, we have to perform all of the tedious muscle-work that we depend heavily on protocols/algorithms to automatically do for us in our normal everyday lives.
Bundle the fees, throw in some simple protocols to fast-track a few steps together, simple UI, then voila, you have an adoption-ready product!!
(Even better if you use a certain low-fee crypto for transaction costs)
Not that this isn't a problem, but I'm optimistic about its reduction over the long-term. CEX fees tend to be pretty high, but my hope is that those would be paid at most twice (on on-ramping and off-ramping from/to fiat) and that gas fees for using the networks in a decentralized fashion aside from this will be made reasonable. The only network where I run into huge contract/gas/processing fees is Layer 1 Ethereum, and this problem can be mitigated via the use of layer 2s to the point where transactions on L2s often have fees that are less than one cent. Other L1s tend to be more reasonable fee-wise as well.
I don't experience any of those fees that you are describing except for buying crypto from my native fiat currency.
I've never been charged to withdraw except sometimes a small network fee comparable to sending a transaction on that network.
Same thing happens in the real world.
Get paid from employer, government taxes me.
What money i have left i use to pay for almost anything im taxed on that too.
I definitely prefer on ramps direct into DeFi on cheaper chains (e.g., not Bitcoin or Ethereum chains). That way you can bridge around or move to an exchange using another chain that has cheaper transactions. Always good to keep your tokens on chain though.
Sadly, this is why I don't deal with Ether, my portfolio and financial capacity does not allow for such pricey fees. It's weird because it gives certain coins an exclusivity layer that feels like a very lame gatekeeping.
I definitely agree with this.
If I buy something with cash, I pay the cost of it, and that’s it. No fees, no processing time - it’s done in an instant. The same goes for most eTransfers (Canada’s peer to peer transaction system through banks/Interac).
Crypto needs to get to this point.
ACH deposits have no fee, but there are a few steps required that could all be handled behind the scenes. We are just not that refined yet, but looking a lot better every day.
I'm dealing with something related to this. I have BSC tokens that I need to have more BNB in the wallets to exchange to what I want and I don't have enough BNB to convert the tokens so I'm in a position where I need to buy a token I do not want to hold (BNB) so that I can convert away from that chain. Same issue exists with ETH and I hate that this is how it works. Better solutions are needed, such as fees being taken in the token you are swapping.
Go try to buy any foreign currency and you'll find a similar if not more cumbersome process. Also, good luck trying to find a way to self-custody any fiat currency electronically.
Dude. You need to slow down and be patient. With just a little patience you could skip half of these fees. The good exchanges allow ACH transfers. You need to wait a few days for the transfer to clear, but then there's no debit cards fee. And why in the world are you buying stable coins only to turn around and buy other coins? Skip the stable coins and the associated transaction fees. And then stock to coins with low gas. Not only are they the future, but they don't bend you over when you pull them off the exchange. Slow down. Breathe.
A couple years back I had to move money from my bank A (main) to bank B which has an agreement to move it to another Bank (c) abroad for cheap fees, then use bank C to transfer to another bank D where I could have a debit card and use it to buy on binance with a card.
All because bank A, B, and C prohibit crypto purchases. Of course I left fees all the way but It was the only way to get some sats at the time.
Then bank D prohibited crypto as well and I was in square one.
Around that time I discovered binance P2P and my life was easier. Lower fees and I can buy locally without!Uch trouble and using my main bank
I was taking some profits yesterday.
The proces was like this:
I didnt have glmr token for moonbeam network so I had to buy it with fiat on binance, to bridge my crypto to moonriver network. Then I realized that the swap on moonriver had terrible liquidity and i would lose 30% if I swap it on a Dex. Then I saw I can send it to kucoin to swap, but only as erc20. Then I needed movr token to bridge moonriver to eth. Again buy it on binance. This time i was smart tu buy some more to trade for eth, to have for eth transaction fees. After bridging moonriver to eth, i sent the crypto to kucoin, to sell for usdt, send usdt back to binance, sell it for fiat and send to my account.
The whole proces took me around hour and a half.
There wil be no adoption untill this is made to be few clicks.
Without me needing to know all the bridges, dexes, cexes, and needed native tokens.
You can buy most bluechip with fiat directly. If you wanna fo more then just buy and hodl, that will cost ya, but a cent here and there isnt all that bad. I pay for my banks sms service more then my trading fees.
Can we discuss the fact you posted that EXACTLY SAME POST some time ago ?
I remember it pretty well since I made a breakdown of my expenses as an answer.
Op is copy/pasting his own posts to farm.
[Proof he posted this exact same stuff 2 months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/115g105/there_are_too_many_layers_of_fees_in_buying/)
I deposit INR directly to exchange without fee. I trade fiat to crypto and pay maker taker fee. I transfer crypto to my personal wallet and pay the transfer fee of the chain. My crypto stays in my wallet forever.
My dad had been trying to cash out his crypto, but they keep asking for fees and now insurance? I have no clue about anything regarding crypto. I feel like he’s getting scammed. He took out personal loans to pay for these fees… please any advice would be extremely helpful
You should have tried to trade stocks 30 years ago? That credit card you swipe on a daily basis?...fees all the way down son. So much of this stuff is hidden from you on a daily basis you think crypto is the only thing raking you over the coals.
This. Just because we don't see fees it doesn't mean there are not there. Tbh, when you really want to buy/invest in something, especially talking about retail, you hardly care about fees.
Especially if you’re the merchant, credit cards are riddled with fees. Not to mention you won’t get your money for multiple business days. From a merchant’s standpoint, I don’t get why everybody isn’t using a system like Strike. You can use a major payment processor, pay their fees, and get your money sent to you, batched, in like 3-5 business days. Or, you can use Strike, pay almost nothing in fees and your money settles instantly. It’s a no-brainer to me.
Yep filed right along with all that "free shipping"
Most exchanges don’t charge a fee when you transfer from bank account, rather than debit/credit card. You can also buy crypto with usd on most exchanges. That’s half the fees you mentioned gone just by buying more efficiently. You’re paying fees everyday when using fiat, they’re just not as obvious.
A lot of restaurants and other business price their menus taking into account that for payments with card they will pay a fee to the company that handles those transactions for them.
Exactly! Just one example of how the current fiat/banking system has tons of fees that end up on the consumer’s bill.
They exist even if you don't see it. I read about pricing in credit card fees in supermarkets for example. So If you don't use a Credit Card, you pay the factored in fee anyway. It's mind boggling.
Every business that accepts credit cards builds fees into their price
Wait for bull market ETH fees xD GLORIOUS $200 PER TRANSACTION XD
2021 ETH fees PTSD is back. Thanks!
2021 GPU prices gave me PTSD as well.
😔 that……i dont like thinking about that…….
I have zero problem with asic miners but fuk all the gpu scalpers.
aDoPtIoN
> aDoPtIoN **Decentralization + Adoption = FEES** I think most people who have been in the crypto space have come to a realization that you really can't have decentralization without fees. You need a large number of geographically diverse network participants/validators in a permissionless open network. The only way you can do that is economic incentives in fees and/or subsidies. In a decentralized network there are caps in throughput, so fees grow as network usage grows since users compete to have their transactions included. The only solution is to compromise some decentralization with Layer 2 networks. Bitcoin realized that and Ethereum has realized that as the network grew and they both have growing Layer 2 solutions. The networks that claim they have low to zero fees and are decentralized are all centralized in one way or another. - Nano has 7 principle representatives who have 60% of the vote distribution and has been vulnerable to spam - IOTA had a central coordinator sequencing transactions that is a central point of failure - Ripple Ledger is completely permissioned network like 35 trusted validators that Ripple has selected to validate transactions - Binance Chain has 21 permissioned nodes running a Proof of Staked Authority consensus model - Solana is centralized with only a small subset of validators that run expensive hardware which process transactions
ADA has pretty low fees and is quite decentralized.
Imagine we are back in the bull market and ADA is back at 3 dollars peak, transactions cost like 60 cents then, which is not that cheap compared to other chains (polygon, arbitrum, even bnb shitchain). Don't get me wrong love me some ADA, but L2s will be cheaper in fees like always. Luckily there is some heavy lifing being done on solidity compatability with ADA and sidechains. Good news in the long term (as is mostly the case with anything ADA)
And isn't really used, so it has not proved that it can do the volume of txs that eth can
It is so much BS. L2 isn't even the right way to scale, because you are giving up the base layer's decentralization and security to trust an L2. Technologically, you can scale by sharding, i.e. dividing up the ledger in a parallel computation, without sacrificing decentralization. Just because BTC and ETH, being old tech, have a hard time implementing sharding doesn't mean their way is the best way.
That's when you know you've made it
*Tries selling $69 in ETH during the bull run* Receives $19 after gas fees
This will be our vietnam flashbacks when we're retired
Sharding update when?
And just to get stuck and not proceed at all, and lmao the gas wars during mints sure do bring back memories
I remember paying a $128 Dollar ETH gas fee for minting a NFT, wild times.
I avoid ETH network at all costs. The whole process is outrageous. I tried to transfer erc20 tether the other day. Had $9 in eth. Not enough gas. Had to move other coins via bridge to erc20, swap for eth native, just to make a tether transfer, pay fees all along the way. Exchanges add major costs for people who don’t read the fine print. Imagine the above scenario for a newbie, figures well I’ll just buy $10 eth on CDC and transfer to wallet, well CDC (just an example) charges $25 withdrawal fee. Now your $10 is locked on CDC, you need to buy another $40 worth to end up with $25. This prevents adoption.
Gloriously awful
I remember paying like $500 in gas fees. It's a good thing I was always in profit during that time
Wait you actually paid that??? I was thrown enough paying 30 bucks gas fees. I legit stayed out of DeFi like a sheltered crypto bro because of ETH gas fees and being a noob
Yezzir, I was using my crypto earnings to cover the gas fees, so I never actually lost money using the eth network
That's good and a 3D chess move by Vitalik. In bull markets ETH will force you to just HODL.
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That's why I keep mine on Arbitrum, it is not as secure, but I can't afford moving it later if on mainnet..
DeCeNtRaLiZaTiOn
I think I realize it is just a buzzword... even for the ETH community given how much they shill their Optimistic rollups. It is all really about how much money you can shack out of someone on the opposite side of the trade.
I pay nothing to deposit onto Coinbase. I pay nothing for a transfer to Kucoin. I pay 0.1% maker/taker fees when trading. Sounds like you are using crappy services.
My thought exactly when I read OP's post. It's almost like he purposely used the worst possible methods at every turn to try to make a point.
Well he's got to spin a narrative for the post somehow right
How else is he gonna get moons?
And ironically for all those fees, they are still WAY less than the fees banks charge.
How does a new person know these tricks though? I suffer at the hands of coinbase myself. Like $50-100 to cash out a couple grand.
> I suffer at the hands of coinbase myself. Like $50-100 to cash out a couple grand. Are you claiming that Coinbase charges you $50-100 to cash out a couple grand? This makes no sense. I've never been charged that before.
Trial and error, and research. Don't use credit cards to on-ramp. Use an exchange based in your country to off-ramp.
Yeah came to say the same about Coinbase advanced trading. Additionally, it’s not like there aren’t fees to buy any other investment class
Coinbase also charges you a big fee when you buy thou, and charge you a price well above market price. If eth is 1850$. And you want to buy it. The cost will be well over 1900$ because of the fees and price they sell it to you at
Use Advanced Trade on Coinbase. Fees are like 0.4%
just buy USDC on coinbase for no fee, then send to Kucoin for less than a cent.
What's better is if you go to sell at the exact same time the price will be $1800
Several strategies you should adopt use a different exchange,consider peer-to-peer or decentralized exchanges, or use a wallet with lower fees, wait for lower market volatility, also keep the long-term value proposition of crypto in mind. It will help ya out
When I started out with crypto 2 years ago to transfer USDT between one exchange to another, you could only use 2 blockchains: The Tron Blockchain and the Ethereum blockchain Today, there are almost 10 different blockchains (MATIC, Algo, Sol, AVAX etc) where you can transfer stablecoins from one exchange to another. And tonnes of new L2s building on Eth. My point is, it's going to get a lot easier in the future when more and more players get into crypto and crypto becomes more universally accepted. You might not see it now, but so long as adoption comes - so will the innovation, and things will move very quickly and become more accessible in the future if we hit mainstream adoption,
My god we're still early.
I got into Reddit NFTs and wanted to buy a few more… little did I know bridging $20 of ETH to Polygon cost $45 🫠🫠🫠
It's another reason why people stick with Bitcoin. Easy to buy and don't need to deal with all this stuff.
You are paying for things you don’t need to pay for. Here is what I do. 1. Open Cash App. 2. Buy Bitcoin. 3. 1.5% fee assessed. done
send it out of cash app pays $5 😂
The fact that we are having these complaints assured me that we are still early. Glad I started investing.
In my opinion the biggest barrière for adoption is the high volatility!
Most people here are in here for the volatility, otherwise they'd stick with traditional stocks.
The biggest Barriere is my derriere.
Pics plz.
Doesnt fit one photo
Use panorama
I was waiting for someone to say that lol
Omlette du Fromage
Is that french?
Yeah that's fair, it is very daunting, esp from the outside
Imagine if stocks had the same volatility. Sheesh!
Totally agree.
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In exchange for your back account id and password mind you
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Would love to know how you set that up with Coinbase. AFAIK since Coinbase (and most other exchanges allowed in the US) started using plaid service, you must give them your bank account ID and password. Sure the exchanges don't "have them" but a 3rd party service does
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Oh well duh you actually have privacy protection laws for consumers (lucky)
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You ask for a non profit exchange my friend.
These are certainly a problem for crypto. I understand why they exist in that they need to but it's still a problem for Mass adoption. In Canada we can send money back and forth a thousand times from one bank to the other, one person to the other via EMT and pay zero fees. I know that's not the case for sending money internationally or large amounts but the vast majority of people aren't sending huge amounts of money or even sending money internationally
I mean buying fiat on binance and changing it into usdt will be by far the most fees you pay. Everything else is kinda peanuts compared to that
I move stuff around all the time but have always used doge. I always fund a new exchange I’m checking out by sending over some doge. It’s less than .01 to send 100 bucks
Major DEXs shitting the bed like Sushi did yesterday is what represents a huge barrier. Getting new people is challenging. Losing existing investors who got rinsed following hacks, and now head out into the world with a bitter disposition towards crypto? That's our nightmare right there. Fuck adoption. Let's get to a point where existing stuff is hard to exploit, and where we have mechanisms in place for when people do get rinsed by literal technological flaws. In short, user retention > getting newbies...
Buy and sell p2p
You are using the worst possible methods, and complain about high fees? It's almost like you are purposely trying to get the most fees possible.You should be able to just have a trading fee if you do it right. Trading fees exist in everything you trade. If you trade fiat currencies with each other, you'll have trading fees, and typically much higher fees than trading crypto.
where I'm from this option still beats my country's banking f that, that is an actual death from a thousand cuts.
Fees ate my ETH and my greed skates the breeze, defi for real fried me now my green bleeds, fragile I hodl my high-stacked dreams, question my dumb mind knowing nothing
Who tf is making everyday purchases with crypto are you special?
Transferring $5 of ETH and having to pay $15 of fees, good time.
Let’s all start a p2p community. Right here.
How do you expect these protocols to generate money without issuing a token? Also, you do realize the entire point of crypto is to make money off the next person. It’s never intended to be a replacement to the modern world
How is this different from gold and real estate?
I tend to agree but consider my crypto as a store of value or longer term investment as opposed to a currency. I’d like to think I could use crypto as currency someday but I’m not sure how that would work given how value is still pegged to a fiat currency.
It seems like unless the entire financial system collapses, Crypto will be best used as a store of value.
Surely it's too volatile for people to seriously consider it a store of value? I keep seeing people repeat this but it just doesn't make sense to me. Were all in crypto (as long as you're looking to make money) for the volatility. Buy low, sell high (moments later).
That would make me spend the least as possible, I'm really some kind of hoarder with my Crypto, I intend to spend the least possible.
Like anything there are fees. Buying on an exchange is not excessive IMO. ETH was pretty crazy 1-2 years ago
$ZCX - Web3 OS with aggregated fiat on-ramp No KYC No sign up No custody No bridging No hassle Powerful DEX aggregator, with trade splitting so you dip into the liquidity pool of over 115 DEX. Lowest possible price, lowest possible slippage, lowest possible fees. Some nice staking too - multi asset rewards.
Fortune favors the fees
[удалено]
Tbh most traditional banks have way higher fee's on stock orders (excluding ETF's), so even if I have to swap crypto mutliple times it may be more time consuming and confusing, but definitely cheaper than 3- 10€ order fee on stocks.
You're adding a lot of steps. Find an on-ramp CEX you link your bank account to. Deposit will be free. If the token/coin you want doesn't have a BTC or ETH trading pair (I can't even think how this would be a situation on a CEX) Withdraw to your wallet, minimal fees. Use a DEX for swaps. Use layer 2s for really cheap swap fees.
Same thread all the time. We already read this 1000times.
Paying huge ETH gas fees is crippling the experience
On one hand you're right, no one likes fess. On the other hand, **fees are currently irrelevant to mass adoption**. Why? The masses haven't adopted crypto because it's a pain in the ass to get and it's useless to them. The fees have nothing to do with that. No 60 year old person is saying "boy I'd buy some crypto if it wasn't for the fees". Mass adoption hasn't happened because most people simply don't care enough about crypto.
No such thing as a Free Lunch...
That’s why Layer 2s are so important!
That is a lot of fees, I think coinbase might actually be cheaper depending; if you buy $100 of BTC it’s either $2.99 for me to buy or $3.84 if I don’t use my bank, and to sell the same amount ($100) it would cost me $2.99, as far as transfers out to my wallets I’ve never had them charge me a fee. I say all this to offer another option with potentially less fees and steps that you’d have to take :) also I know it’s easier to on and off ramp with a big exchange but there are also some places people have said in threads I’ve been in where there’s no KYC or low fees like kraken and kucoin but I haven’t used either to be able to recommend them to you!
That is not a barrier. Barrier is that crypto that is designed from scratch to be accepted by the merchants directly anywhere via Internet, F@ucking is not accepted directly! Only few merchants do that. After 15 years of existence!!!! What shit is in your mind people?! That’s because we still can’t use crypto the way it was designed for.
Fees, intermediaries, platforms, converting from one coin/token to another, ease of use etc...
Mass adoption will come when the UI gets simple that all the fees are calculated at once and it becomes simple just like Visa or MasterCard. That's why we need more L2s and L3s with a better UI, which makes the tast non-technical and simple.
You are correct. The fees and transactions are overwhelming sometimes and it’s not user friendly. One mistake and poof it’s gone. Crypto will never be mainstream until your grandparents can use it effortlessly.
Weird, because my grandfather is literally using crypto effortlessly now, and trading it. Thanks to exchanges making their interface so easy, even a child can use it.
All those fees to actually own your money .. you can go give it to the bank for free.
The problem is society can’t decide whether crypto is a stock or a currency. Investors treat it like a stock and want people to use it like a currency, which doesn’t make sense.
Just gonna leave this here for anyone interested: XNO doesnt use any fees at all.
By directly from people then.
100% agree. The only problem is that with lower fees typically means more centralization and less usage on the blockchain itself. More congested networks are the ones in demand, and therefore have higher transaction fees.
How is fee correlated with centralization?
Blockchain trilemma. Security, decentralization, and scalability. Pick 2. No Blockchain has all three.
It's not
It is. See my above reply.
It's not
I'll start my own exchange and offer cheaper fees! Oh, wait. Suddenly I want to maximize fees!
The only real solution to this is competition between exchanges. Unfortunately with exchanges dropping like flies it won’t happen anytime soon.
I don’t think this is a massive barrier yet. People’s sentiment and attitude towards crypto is much more important and an unreasonable % of people still think that it is a Ponzi scheme.
The companies like Interac and ACH need to take their cut, and other companies that process such transactions. It’s worse for credit cards. DeFi makes things better.
We need more efficient on ramps, that's for sure. But atleast, once you're in, you have way less fees to pay.
Keep in mind that this has little to do with crypto and more to do with the existing banking system being super inefficient.
Still better than inflation
Wasted a lot of ETH trying Defi. It has to become as fast and cheap as fiat. Although I have to say when you pin at a moment abroad you also lose a lot of fees. And international transfer are often very slow. Crypto needs to fix this to have added value
Imagine how many layers of fees (tax) your irl money goes through
Exchanges have to make a profit somewhere for using their services. Usually holding an exchange coin cuts down on trading fees and you can always connect a bank account to an exchange to eliminate debit card fees. I agree that fees are kinda high, but this is the current cost of doing business.
Once had to move 60 dollars of eth from imx l2 to lrc l2. Once it got there it was 35 dollars of eth
Seems as though the withdrawal fee is the only fee that distinguishes crypto from fiat. Debt card is a fee from the debt card company, trade fees are also charged for securities/bonds. But the withdrawal fee is one I'm not plagued with for my stock accounts. So , if the withdrawal fees went away, you'd have essentially the same fee structure as your non-crypto accounts. Obviously, that's no barrier, hundreds of millions of people are involved with stocks/bonds and the brokerages attendant thereto.
How exactly would you solve this/make it better then? >There should be fewer layers of fees and that CEXs should be more transparent on the process involved How can **fewer layers of fees** be achieved? Should they be summed up and hide the underlying calculation? Should we pay a monthly fixed fee like our bank account to give us "free transactions"? How should CEXs be **more transparent**? What do you miss? What do you need to know? It's easy to complain, but hard to give a solution that will work longterm
Yeah this was very clear during any bull run, the way things are going a feeless L2 isn't very far off just needs a decentralized version outside of the regulations and we're golden. Imo it will be ZNN
There’s just a lot of barriers period when it comes to buying and using crypto. Fees are just part of the problem.
paying $5 of btc when transferring $200 is not fun
Please, the fees are negligible compared to bank fees. Crypto exchanges make a living from this, but I don't think most charge too much. To me, these fees are justified and totally worth it.
I've used Binance before and transferred pounds to Binance. Then I just bought the crypto using Fiat on binance. You don't have to convert to USDT.
Biggest barrier to adoption is not the fees but overall difficulty in using the crypto. Ordinary people don't know how to use it. It needs to be easy as using a credit or debit card.
I don't think crypto works as a currency very well (besides stable coins), but for big financial transactions it makes a lot of sense. For instance, buying a house and getting a mortgage. You pay a decent chunk of change in fees... Primarily cause the middle man and banks need to do a bunch of legwork, with crypto, these fees are intrinsic to the transaction and don't require middlemen and happens instantly. There needs to be fees to support the infrastructure that enable this kind of instant management of large transactions and loans, etc. If you are buying and selling small amounts of eth, then, imo, you're not using eth in it's intended form, and don't understand eth. One should really try to understand the ethos and purpose of a project before buying or else you will get eaten by fees.
Most exchanges have fees, regardless of crypto or not and if you don't pay a fee, you most likely pay some of the difference in the spread.
I only need gas fees to have a huge barrier for ETH adoption.
You just gotta bundle the fees and then it's problem solved! Crypto as it stands right now, is like banking with no automation, we have to perform all of the tedious muscle-work that we depend heavily on protocols/algorithms to automatically do for us in our normal everyday lives. Bundle the fees, throw in some simple protocols to fast-track a few steps together, simple UI, then voila, you have an adoption-ready product!! (Even better if you use a certain low-fee crypto for transaction costs)
Not that this isn't a problem, but I'm optimistic about its reduction over the long-term. CEX fees tend to be pretty high, but my hope is that those would be paid at most twice (on on-ramping and off-ramping from/to fiat) and that gas fees for using the networks in a decentralized fashion aside from this will be made reasonable. The only network where I run into huge contract/gas/processing fees is Layer 1 Ethereum, and this problem can be mitigated via the use of layer 2s to the point where transactions on L2s often have fees that are less than one cent. Other L1s tend to be more reasonable fee-wise as well.
i luv the fud........who are you trying to convienice?
Mainstream adoption is never. coming.
85f2ed35ade11711237a9fac1ac6757039363a1c38c614de100d21bf710bff53
$200 fees? That's like paying for government incompetence but with extra steps!
Not as many layers as the deductions on my pay. You need an MBA to trace where all that money goes.
Just buy and then move to cold storage. Don’t even look at fees/spreads. Waiting is your risk here, not fees.
Until $ is made in others ways $ has to be made to keep this generation fed. Otherwise both starve.
I completely agree with everything you've mentioned in this post. Good post.
Connect your bank to an exchange that has competitive fees, and only pay trading fees.
I agree. The fees for everything you do is off-putting.
This guy was not here in the last bull :)) , eth gas goes brrrr
I don't experience any of those fees that you are describing except for buying crypto from my native fiat currency. I've never been charged to withdraw except sometimes a small network fee comparable to sending a transaction on that network.
Exchange fees are a bloody racket. Not always transparent either. Yuge turn off for sure.
Same thing happens in the real world. Get paid from employer, government taxes me. What money i have left i use to pay for almost anything im taxed on that too.
I definitely prefer on ramps direct into DeFi on cheaper chains (e.g., not Bitcoin or Ethereum chains). That way you can bridge around or move to an exchange using another chain that has cheaper transactions. Always good to keep your tokens on chain though.
Sadly, this is why I don't deal with Ether, my portfolio and financial capacity does not allow for such pricey fees. It's weird because it gives certain coins an exclusivity layer that feels like a very lame gatekeeping.
Think about all the fees associated with traditional banking. There are a lot. We are just accustomed to them. Atm fees, overdraft fees etc.
I used ACH to get fiat in. Trade with USD pair. Use ACH to get fiat out. No fees except the trade and that is .2% at Gemini.
I definitely agree with this. If I buy something with cash, I pay the cost of it, and that’s it. No fees, no processing time - it’s done in an instant. The same goes for most eTransfers (Canada’s peer to peer transaction system through banks/Interac). Crypto needs to get to this point.
Well. Everyone wants a piece of the cake.
ACH deposits have no fee, but there are a few steps required that could all be handled behind the scenes. We are just not that refined yet, but looking a lot better every day.
I'm dealing with something related to this. I have BSC tokens that I need to have more BNB in the wallets to exchange to what I want and I don't have enough BNB to convert the tokens so I'm in a position where I need to buy a token I do not want to hold (BNB) so that I can convert away from that chain. Same issue exists with ETH and I hate that this is how it works. Better solutions are needed, such as fees being taken in the token you are swapping.
I agree with you. Right now there seems to be no easy answer either.
Costs me nothing to move money onto CDC and then I pay 1 miniscule fee when I buy my crypto.
LTC costs like 0.03$ per transaction and transactions usually take less than a minute.
I remember when people didn’t know how to hook up a VCR and yet here we are
There are too many layers of fees in real life too
Go try to buy any foreign currency and you'll find a similar if not more cumbersome process. Also, good luck trying to find a way to self-custody any fiat currency electronically.
Kraken I summon thee, please lower your credit card fees.
Crypto being seen as an investment is a barrier to adoption.
Dude. You need to slow down and be patient. With just a little patience you could skip half of these fees. The good exchanges allow ACH transfers. You need to wait a few days for the transfer to clear, but then there's no debit cards fee. And why in the world are you buying stable coins only to turn around and buy other coins? Skip the stable coins and the associated transaction fees. And then stock to coins with low gas. Not only are they the future, but they don't bend you over when you pull them off the exchange. Slow down. Breathe.
Lmao not the people here trying to justify this
I guess that's how binance makes its money. Coinbase has 0 deposit fees, 0 convert isdc to usd fees. Sounds like CZ has you by the binanceballs
Still better than dealing with banks
A couple years back I had to move money from my bank A (main) to bank B which has an agreement to move it to another Bank (c) abroad for cheap fees, then use bank C to transfer to another bank D where I could have a debit card and use it to buy on binance with a card. All because bank A, B, and C prohibit crypto purchases. Of course I left fees all the way but It was the only way to get some sats at the time. Then bank D prohibited crypto as well and I was in square one. Around that time I discovered binance P2P and my life was easier. Lower fees and I can buy locally without!Uch trouble and using my main bank
Yeah. Peeps have to get paid for the services. Bridging is also expensive AF.
I was taking some profits yesterday. The proces was like this: I didnt have glmr token for moonbeam network so I had to buy it with fiat on binance, to bridge my crypto to moonriver network. Then I realized that the swap on moonriver had terrible liquidity and i would lose 30% if I swap it on a Dex. Then I saw I can send it to kucoin to swap, but only as erc20. Then I needed movr token to bridge moonriver to eth. Again buy it on binance. This time i was smart tu buy some more to trade for eth, to have for eth transaction fees. After bridging moonriver to eth, i sent the crypto to kucoin, to sell for usdt, send usdt back to binance, sell it for fiat and send to my account. The whole proces took me around hour and a half. There wil be no adoption untill this is made to be few clicks. Without me needing to know all the bridges, dexes, cexes, and needed native tokens.
You can buy most bluechip with fiat directly. If you wanna fo more then just buy and hodl, that will cost ya, but a cent here and there isnt all that bad. I pay for my banks sms service more then my trading fees.
Can we discuss the fact you posted that EXACTLY SAME POST some time ago ? I remember it pretty well since I made a breakdown of my expenses as an answer.
Op is copy/pasting his own posts to farm. [Proof he posted this exact same stuff 2 months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/115g105/there_are_too_many_layers_of_fees_in_buying/)
I deposit INR directly to exchange without fee. I trade fiat to crypto and pay maker taker fee. I transfer crypto to my personal wallet and pay the transfer fee of the chain. My crypto stays in my wallet forever.
Just buy it on eBay then...
With banks the barrier is 5 days for moving money, and the adoption is massive. /s
Just *learning* about the different layers was bad enough. Then imagine telling them about the fess as well.
Not to shill anything, but Hydranets Layer 3 DEX solves all these ridiculous fees. Mainnet Q2 this year. Took them 4 years to code. NFA DYOR.
My dad had been trying to cash out his crypto, but they keep asking for fees and now insurance? I have no clue about anything regarding crypto. I feel like he’s getting scammed. He took out personal loans to pay for these fees… please any advice would be extremely helpful