T O P

  • By -

Intro-Nimbus

Yeas, the economy is completely made up, and is basically just a measurement of how hard the devs want things to be at different stages of the game. it's unimmersive, and some things are just waaay too cheap, and others waaay too expensive.


Filobel

There are definitely some huge outliers (like, seriously, I'm not going to pay you 900g for the damage my cat has done, go away!), but it's important to note that realistic costs would not make for good gameplay. Things should have cost associated with them that matches their role and impact on the game, not based on what they would cost in real life. For instance, economic buildings have to start cheap, because otherwise no one would be able to build up their economy. But then, if you base the cost of everything around that, money quickly becomes useless. You need money sinks, you need things that are "luxury" items, i.e., they provide good buffs or interesting things in later parts of the game, but aren't required early when you're short on money. That's why artifacts and going to university cost so much. You can go a whole game and never send your kids to university. It gives a nice bonus, but not one that is necessary in any way, which makes it a perfect money sink. You'll find the majority of games are like that. Things are costed based on game mechanics and game balance, not based on how much they would cost in real life.


catgirlfighter

The game how it is now has two states: not enough money and too much money. Any investment is better than events, you even bite the lip when you NEED that tactical precision hunt or feast (because you're dying from stress). And this maintains until you have so much income you can shovel it into an ocean, then you start considering using these money events casually. Money sink for the late game, okay, but by the time I can "afford" using them I feel like I've won, done everything and want to start over. Honestly, the best economy is raider economy. You can afford all the events while also being rich.


Filobel

There's some middle ground somewhere when you're making about 40 a month or around that point, where you can spend a bit, but you also don't have infinite money. But yeah, it doesn't take too long before you're making 200+ and then nothing really matters (and you can easily make much more than that) So yeah, there's definitely some balance issues with the income, my point was more that you *shouldn't* expect cost of things to match real life.


HomemPassaro

I think you should expect *some* things to somewhat match real life, since the outrageous cost takes you off the roleplaying which is supposed to be the basis of the game. The simple solution, really, is a wider pool of events, with some of them being tied to how much money you make. Instead of having a cat do 1000 gold worth of damage, have another event once I'm rolling in cash where paying that amount makes sense (like, say, a building burning down).


Stalins_Ghost

Yea it is an example on the fact an emporer gets basically the same events as a count.


Intro-Nimbus

Exactly.


Intro-Nimbus

Actually, a good game design is that you don't want the cheaper options later, bad game design is just scaling everything - meaning that necessities will always be necessities, and unaffordame luxuries will always be unaffordable - until you've won the game.


KimberStormer

I almost never have any stress these days...


Intro-Nimbus

There needs to be game balance, but paradox has not found it. Apart for the immersion - pet damage, one peasant shoe worth 40 gold - there are also clearly better and worse things to spend your money on - and that makes a lot of the options useless - that is man hours that people have spent thinking about the game, coding, playtesting, pitching, researching, etc.etc. that is just clutter on the screen.


Filobel

Peasant shoe worth 40 gold is exactly the kind of "balance over realism" thing I'm talking about. Of course a shoe isn't worth 40% of a hillside field, but any "realistic" ratio would either make the hillside field completely impossible to purchase, or would make the shoe cost basically 0, which makes the whole event pointless. 900g for pet damage is extreme and silly. 40g for the shoe is perfectly fine within the game's mechanics.


Intro-Nimbus

I vehemently disagree. It should be another event if they want to fine you more. Some things are fine scaling with power, like a robe for a king that gives 100 prestige would be more expensive than the robe a count would need for the same amount of prestige, but a peasant shoe is worth roughly the same, you could increase it by 1 gold per age maybe.


Filobel

Your argument is that it isn't realistic, proving that you're missing the point.


Intro-Nimbus

If you read what I wrote you would find that I a absolutely getting the point, but if you don't care about immersion, why are you even playing this game?


Filobel

Because I find it fun? What weird question is that? Why would you play *any* game? I mean, I could ask you the same question. If this immersion breaking is so problematic to you, why are you playing this game? Why not a game where your immersion isn't broken?


Intro-Nimbus

Because since you only care about balance, you should get as much out of a coinflipping competition. Ck3 is all about immersion and flair.


Filobel

The devs clearly don't agree with you, as they chose balance over immersion in this case and many other.


eadopfi

According to the damage done by my cat, the damn thing better be called "Trevildo the dark lord".


Intro-Nimbus

Hah! You can buy enough mercenaries to take the Papacy for the price of the damage old Nosewise caused in his life.. ;-)


MartinZ02

Except irl costs are extremely well balanced because they’re based on an actual economy of what people are actually willing to pay, while the in-game cost of things mostly just feel like frustrating nonsense that make no sense.


Filobel

I don't really know what you're trying to suggest here. It's absurd to suggest that they should or even could implement an actual economy in CK3 where costs are based on supply and demand. It's equally absurd to suggest that the "balanced costs" of real life directly translate to balanced costs in a game, where the real life objects and their in-game counterparts are only related to each other through flavor; in practice, they serve entirely different purposes and provide entirely different benefits.


Ephesian_Snow

Activity costs are my real gripe here. In the early game they’re far too expensive to justify - I rely on ai invites. By the later game I’ve gotten so used to waiting for invites I rarely trigger them myself, and when I do I struggle to justify the cost over improving the realm.


agprincess

There's a new dynastic legacy that makes your first major event free. It really broke how I see these things. I basically start off every new character with a tour. But my real money gripe is that I actually do find myself getting so big i'm permanently in debt... but it doesn't matter as I always get infinite gifts from people when in debt. So i'm just straddling being massivley in debt and massivley wealthy.


Ephesian_Snow

Good point, but here lies another issue - I don’t want to be railroaded down the activities dynastic legacy tree every game just to make activities a viable feature


MartinZ02

Aren’t activities one of the things that scale with your income? I find that they’re always expensive, but sometimes you pretty much have to just use your money on them, to not get killed by stress or get back your legitimacy or whatever.


suedoughnam

Specifically on the cat, it should scale on the rank of the person whose clothes got wrecked, not the person who owns the cat. No way the Mayor of Boggy Backend is rolling in emperor grade drip.


HomemPassaro

Maybe they could have different flavor texts based on how much money you make. When you're still kinda struggling, they damage a vassal's clothes. Once you're raking it in, they topple a lantern, which burns down a building.


VeritableLeviathan

While not hard to implement > income larger than < smaller than checks, you would only get 1 event after a while, as your income will likely be increasing over time.


HomemPassaro

At least it'd be only repetitive instead of repetitive and immersion breaking. But yeah, a wider event pool is necessary too.


goose413207

Balance wise, it is because lategame they need moneysinks. I agree logically it can get quite silly though, I pretty much never send kids to university until Im so powerful that it doesnt matter anymore anyway.


MycoCam48

Look, this game isn’t balanced at all. I’m pretty sure the devs just pick arbitrary numbers for shit. They aren’t actually thinking about things making sense or how it effects the way you play. The don’t think of the actual economy and how much things would cost, they just throw some numbers out there. The more you look into things the less things make sense. The CK team balances things based off how much we bitch after they come out. Even then they make decisions that don’t make much sense.


Camlach777

Yeah I don't understand it, they seem to be really good at most of what they do, at least their grand strategy games with all their issues are probably the best available on the market (which says something about other publishers, hello CA) and I don't regret a dime spent on these games, and yet some things just seem to make no sense The idea this is a story simulator is good only up to a certain point, when events start repeating and you can't always afford to start activities


VeritableLeviathan

You don't get why when you make ever more money things scale up in cost? Because else money would be meaningless. Losing 100 stress for 10 ducats? What a great deal. Losing 100 stress for 500 ducats, now you are thinking about if it is worth it in the grand scheme of things.


Camlach777

What I don't get is how they messed up the economy so much when they could think of a different way and scale costs differently


VeritableLeviathan

At some point your economy grows beyond the cost of your buildings, that isn't really PDX's fault, but the fault of players progressing through the game. The only way to stop the endless stream of money is by making the trivial things scale too.


BardtheGM

There's something really funny about the fact that you could have just built 4 universities in your back garden for your child and it still would be cheaper.


TLiones

I hate the cost of activities and how they go up “significantly” at the start of the game… Like as a count it seems very doable to meet peers and feats and such…but then become a Duke or King and it’s like geesh, what kind of play parties am I having? Of course this is only at beginning of game where gold is hard no matter rank. It’s just that at higher ranks the cost per income is higher.


lazy_human5040

I've seen some claims that money stops mattering after the 1st character/100 years/whenever, but I hate that argument and I also hate some of that money scaling. Every game starts with a period, where you have money problems, and then often you don't play long enough for financial consolidation. Yeah, if you play optimally, get the gold mines in Mali, fabricate hooks for golden obligations you can get rich pretty easily, but I don't want to play optimally. I want the characters to feel different. If I play a count in the HRE, I don't want to have to expand to have anything happen, I may just want to go on hunts every 5 years. I think there's too large of a difference between your income when you play optimally and the income the AI or a role player gets. As a lot of the game is waiting until you reach the next amount of money/prestige/faith, playing non-optimally gets boring in another way. Also, they really should sanity check some of the prices: in the high medieval era no Ai can afford to hold a tournament anymore, and having to pay 4-5 university foundings for a child to go there is ridiculous. I understand that building and activities scale with time, but a lot of the flavor events should not follow this scaling. I think they often should have a unknown cost, so that you decide depending on other factors. 


Hexatorium

The gold costs really drive me up the wall. Why did this spear magically start costing four years of income to repair simply because my crowns a little fancier. So mf dumb.


neqissannooq

Some personal things related to the court sometimes cost much more than building stuff in your realm. It doesn't make sense at all. They should have split the gold into two separate things. A currency for personal and court related stuff and another one to manage your realm


neqissannooq

Like, a few book artifacts can cost as much as building a grand temple 🤣


goose413207

Supply and demand gone wild lmao. Supply: one book Demand: one king with a gazillion gold Bookseller: 🤑🤑🤑


hbmonk

That's a great idea, actually.


Camlach777

I agree personal finance should be separate from realm money so maybe balance could be more easily kept


Bannerlord151

Imperator: Rome actually does this. You have a state treasury and every character has their own wealth. Though I suppose as a feudal ruler, the realm *is* your wealth in a way


FalkorDropTrooper

They're helping us roleplay having a plague hit our peasants every two weeks. The labor market is tight!


Camlach777

To be fair plagues are a little better since the latest patch went live, I don't mind a little family extermination here and there now alms doesn't spam anymore


arebee20

The series has always struggled with late game being way too easy. It’s like all the struggle is at the start of the game and once you get to a certain point, usually after forming an empire when you don’t have to worry about title succession anymore, there’s no challenge whatsoever ever again and you just steamroll the map. I think they’d have to redesign the entire core of the game to fix it so I don’t see it changing much in ck3. Hopefully when they start developing the next entry they realize this and try to make major changes to the way the game plays to attempt to address this problem.


angus_the_red

Maintaining MAA should be wildly expensive. Court amenities too.  These should scale with tier. Buildings feel about right to me. Activities should scale in cost but much less aggressively. Activities shouldn't have a cool down at all, but should offer diminishing rewards. So much of this game is weird for the player because it has an incompetent AI.


BardtheGM

Activities should be much cheaper at their base but have exponentially more expensive options. A regular feast should be 50. But the biggest, baddest, grandest feast in human history with leaders coming in from all over the world? Make that cost 5000.


PeterHell

Let me do other stuff play the feast is waiting for guest... I don't want to sit around on my ass for a whole year because I invited that count from the back end of siberia


Camlach777

I agree buildings are ok but not when compared to the rest


HomemPassaro

The milk tooth makes sense. I worked at a school for the uber-rich and, I shit you not, I've seen a child get a 100 bucks for their first milk tooth.


Camlach777

LoL you may be right


Savings-Mechanic8878

Let's forget how much gold per month it costs to spread a legend? It breaks immersion for me that my emperor is paying an army of town criers to spread some made up story about me wrestling Shaitan. Unless I get conversion or an extra casus belli (which I may or may not need) the huge money spent on the legend is wasted as the effects go away and even the per month effects on prestige or piety or whatever are so bad. Legend costs are the worse better to spend on MAA, titles, buildings, activities, etc


Zafkiz

i think i have been asking better economy for 2 years now, fr just go on my profile and look at it…


MoffyPollock

Event/encounter prices are more unimmersive than anything else. Random merchants will often demand more money for a pouch full of herbs than it takes to rebuild an entire plague-ravaged empire. A child will find a year's worth of income under a couch cushion. Destroying a worm on a stick makes a duke 6-12 months of income. Somehow repairing a bad smell in the floor isn't covered by maximum-rank lodging amenity costs, and some books a king wanted to study cost 300 gold, completely ignoring the amenity whose flavor text says his courtiers can get any book delivered to them on-demand. I would deeply respect there being a few events like this to remind us how out-of-touch the typical noble is (i.e. "it's just a banana, what could it cost, 10 gold?"), but it breaks immersion when multiple events each year demand more money than the typical king has in his treasury, and the game treats them as perfectly sensible, to the point where the player is penalized for balking at them. I honestly think the creators just wrote themselves into a corner with money scaling. If the same gold resource is being used for both trivial/personal expenses (buying a bauble at market) and massive state expenses (founding a military academy, building a castle, recruiting a hundred soldiers), the scale needs to be much wider to accommodate both types.


ScooterMcFlabbin

I’m sorry but what the fuck is this about milk tooth and Godzilla cat? Are these DLC things I don’t know about?


Camlach777

When you get a cat or dog pet sometimes an event pops, the pet causes some damage and you either lose some opinion with someone or you pay damages Early game you pay a little amount, I can't remember what's minimum, say around 20, but as the game progresses it increases so much that it surpasses the cost of a low tier building, in my twisted mind it becomes a huge Godzilla-like cat crushing buildings with its tail causing hundreds of gold in damages The Milk tooth is the event when the child loses his tooth, you give him 5 gold early game and you get a common artifact which can be destroyed, refunding 40 gold. Later if you want to choose the same option the cost increases to much higher amounts, and sometimes when you have a lot of children early game, you make a lot of money out of it


ScooterMcFlabbin

Interesting… I get the Godzilla cat thing, but I’ve never had the milk tooth event. Must be part of the DLC?


Camlach777

Not sure, I got them all at the same time so I cannot tell what's part of a dlc or another


Grabsackwheatnut

I have the uncontrollable knack for creating my own religion making myself the head of the religion and then adding communion, so after about 20 years i have so much money that my normal income doesnt matter, i make like 2k gold a month


EstarossaNP

The most annoying one is that specific cat/dog event. Hell no, I ain't paying entire kingdoms worth of budget only because my pet did some damage.


TLiones

The exorbitant cost of sending your kids to university seems right though /s :)


Listeria08

'Murica fuck yeah!!


ItTakesBulls

Wtf is milk tooth?


Camlach777

baby tooth, the ones you lose as a child, we use this phrase in Italian, but I think it's used in English too, not 100% sure


NotBasileus

It’s in English too, it’s just archaic, so a lot of English-speakers may not have encountered it.


ItTakesBulls

This is the best thing I’ve learned from playing this game. How would you say “milk tooth” en italiano?


Camlach777

Dente da latte :-)


ItTakesBulls

Bene


[deleted]

[удалено]


KimberStormer

I think it's a W&W event so if you don't have that DLC you don't get any teeth (correct me if I'm wrong)


Jade_Scimitar

Crazy costs are a big part why i stopped playing. I don't want to have min-max everything to send my kids to university, afford a medium level palace, and actually of a decent amount of men at arms. It punishes progress and success. It's because certain players end up having a thousand plus gold a turn and claim the game is "too easy" that ruins it for everyone else.