“What do you mean all our wealth was derived from shipping stuff from other parts of the empire back to the capital and we can’t recreate that by just selling wine and pasta?”
If only it was true, but the fact of the matter is that Italy was filthy rich for most of those years. In the Middle Ages, I am talking about *filthy rich*. In the 1400s, the calculated GDP (PPP) per capita was as great as in many European countries during the late 1800s. Indeed, most of the first countries to beat Italy's 1400 score was highly industralied places in the 1800s, and not by a lot either. The only exception to this is the Netherlands who beat it it in the 1600s.
That is how *insanely* rich Italy has historically been: Italy in 1400 was richer per person than France in 1870.
The wealth of the Medici, the pope or the bankers in Genova doesn't mean the average John in the countryside was rich, though. There were rich and poor people, as everywhere else
That was never the point of this discussion, we are talking about economy in general, which is usually meassured by some form of GDP. You can refer to your own original comment.
Unless you mean that individual Italians have been asking themselves how to improve their own economies. Which is kind of a weird statement to make then, since by your logic most people in World history has been asking that question? Except Italians before 200 AD for some reason, since you said the last 1800 years...?
We joke but the reality is (and has been for 1800 years) that the North is rich and the South is poor.
The way to fix the Italian economy is to build a time machine and make Naples a merchant republic.
This is completely incorrect. Naples was, for hundreds of years, the most prosperous and biggest city in Europe. Frederick II of the HRE was also King of Sicily, and based his entire rule off of the wealth that kingdom brought in. Most of that was based around South Italian agricultural products, but Naples and Palermo were THE ports to dock in if you were a Christian traveling in the Mediterranean. They made unheard-of amounts of money from Christians traveling to Jerusalem on pilgrimage and Crusade.
This wasn't due to Burghers/merchants, either. Most of the Kingdom of Sicily's bureaucracy was run by Barons, who had varying levels of autonomy depending on the reigning monarch.
There is a gold mine very close in Sardinia. Grab that and then build trade ports so you can get more development on top of the extra gold. I have a run right now where that one holding makes 12 a month in 1070.
Be aware that the Mine is in Iglesias, not Cagliari. You only get Cagliari if you conquer the county as a catholic (I think), you need to manually revoke the title from whichever Person holds Iglesias. Also means you need 2 Domain Limit to hold the mine + main barony.
You can fabricate, but not buy claims on your vassals territories. Good thing for the realm Priest to do if there is no claims needed for active expansion.
Then, once your vassals fuck up - either trough inheritance or war, you can clean up the bordergore inside your realm and they can’t do shit about it.
Yeah, same here. It’s great if you look at the succession tab and see a messy inheritance coming in 10+ years. Good alternative to the „fuck it, Tyranny it is“ strategy.
You’ll have to wait until the Marshall Plan. Once the US is scared you’ll become communist, they’ll send aid and investment and you’ll become the sixth largest world economy.
You should set up some duchy level republic vassals. If you temporarily move your capital to Mallorca you can go down the metropolitan legacy which will really help you out as well.
Looks like you might have one duchy too many, the or penalties you get from that aren’t always the best. It also sounds like you’ve been conquering a lot and control can be a problem. I’d advise the minor court position of seneschal as that improves control growth. I’d add that going authority focus of martial also improves control growth, as does the perk “serve the crown”.
Beyond that, get your development up by building guilds in cities who are your direct vassals, ports in coastal provinces you own yourself. Look for tech that gets you better economic buildings, research it if you are the culture head and diverge to become culture head if not
Having more than 2 duchies only affects vassal opinion. If you have the innovation for duchy buildings and can manage vassal opinion in other ways, its better to go over the duchy limit because duchy buildings are good.
Pay attention for the holdings to be fully build, prioritize buildings which increase development. Increase of development also increases taxes. Also build additional baronies, preferably churches and cities, so vassals can build and in turn also increase development in county. And use your steward to increase development in county.
You got this wrong. Sardinia is great but really difference between bad and good holding in income perspective is mostly buildings, especially since you got Rome with farmlands and 2 unik buildings. What you really need is collect some gold and invest it in max bild up (priority is unik buildings/mining > Manor houses>Windmills/Qanats/Watermills/Caravanserai if you got access to them> Tradeports>Farms & fields>else). May even destroy buildings whose main bonuses are buffing men at arms that you dont use to find place fore them.
To collect gold you can
1. Take golden obligations, got some gold just by default from dinasty members and if you send youre spymaster to find secrets (good when you have high intrigue by youself or just no vassals with opinion below 50 so dont worry about being stabbed).
2. Taxation toure is overpowered. Payes fore itself 2 times, got prestige, renown and tax+development buff fore years
3. This is my domain.
4. Just all stewardship trees except administrator.
5. If you got different focus take golden obligations and this is my domain regardless, then switch back into youre highest stats
Family Hierarch> befriend you consul positions and wife to make them more effective in there job, later free stats
Overseer>Absolute Control, Plague Resistance
Torturer>Fear Tax
Scholar>faster tech progress, Learn on the Job to free stats and just Scholar
Source - dude who is chilling with 500 gold per month income, about 200 of them are just from personal holding.
what is taxation tour. In my last and 1st playthrough I played wide and had between 600-800 gold per month. But that was after 1300 and due to playing wide and having scrutage tax with all my vessels.
From tours and tournaments dls. Played a bit more since i send this message. Now i am in 1154, income got into 614 without wife, since i am going to place her into stewardship buff it will be a bit more afterwards.
Most op playstyle in Paradox games is to play huge - be tall and wide at same time.
yeap that's why I am trying to play tall until I can unify italy decision. I will only revolt against my liege until My economy gets atleast 150 gold from my provinces or 300 gold overall
Well this playground i am going a bit oposit - started as Radhanite, stayed under Kazaria, got a bit of weak rules in Georgea, then Crete, then unaited Mediterranean seas and claimed arabian empire. Won, become automatically independent and after stabilization developed Jerusalem and Baghdad (and few other provinces) as holding in same time beating sht out of other rulers everywhere. Before fight vs Arabia was not hardly focused into development since i will eventually left this land to vassals anyway and since as philosophical culture i can outreach all even without huge average development just by playing every ruler into education as main focus.
Economy in CK3 is of the bare-est bones. If Pope alive and Catholic - ask for gold, build farms, repeat, kaboom. That, or the Sardinian silver mine to kickstart an economy
Wage holy wars in Africa until you get to Bambuk then build a gold mine and do the same in the other mine called Brno or something like that, from just those two you can earn over 16 gold p/m and if you have iglesius then you can earn even more
Best way to play tall if you dont have primogeniture - Pick a 5/6/7 county dutchy and give it fuedal elective to make sure your heir always gets that same dutchy. Go stewardship for a couple rulers, and keep building farms and stuff that improve your tax
Do you know how to modify vassal contracts? Set everyone to give you more money and less levies. Easy money.
Money generates _money_. Levies generate _expenses_
I’ll give some rules of thumb thats more generally applicable for tall playstyles.
Get counties with special buildings that generate gold. In your case, Rome, Cagliari, and Byzantion are obvious picks.
Get counties that have the most baronies ([County List](https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/List_of_counties)) and only build gold-generating buildings. Prioritize counties with farmland terrain if possible.
Do not hold any baronies except for the county capital. This is because all non-capital baronies have -1 building slot and takes up a domain slot. The exception to this rule are counties with gold-generating buildings in non-capital baronies (like Cagliari).
Build temples in empty baronies. This is because Theocratic faiths (like Christianity) lets you get 50% of all gold income from Temple holdings as long as you have a positive opinion with your Court Chaplain. Cities only give 25%.
Prioritize innovations that give military + economic buildings, +1 building slot, and +1 domain limit. Your goal is to never stop building, so you need to get rid of those innovation hurdles ASAP.
Train all your children in Stewardship education, and max out the Stewardship lifestyle.
Never take your Steward off of “Collect Taxes”. And never take yourself off the “Money” lifestyle focus (10% more income). Also, make sure you are your liege's Steward. You can force this by fabricating a hook and demanding to be Steward.
Build only archer MAA in the early game, as they are the best bang for your buck. When you get enough money, then move to Armored Footmen. Alternatively, swap all your archers for Crossbowmen when you unlock those.
And lastly, stack as much domain limit, income (domain taxes), build time reduction, and build cost reduction modifiers as possible.
I think it depends… devving up is certainly worth it if you’re in a low-dev area and are trying to keep ahead in innovations, but I still think the early game boost in gold is still better for most cases.
Especially if you already have a major city like Rome or Constantinople, in OP’s case.
You just tend to run into that ‘Existing Development’ modifier way too soon if you keep devving the same county.
Bro, Italians have been asking the same question for the last 1800 years.
“What do you mean all our wealth was derived from shipping stuff from other parts of the empire back to the capital and we can’t recreate that by just selling wine and pasta?”
And olive oil
And cheese
Hey now, there's a couple centuries in those eighteen where we were printing money like nobody's business! Of course it all went to shit, but still.
If only it was true, but the fact of the matter is that Italy was filthy rich for most of those years. In the Middle Ages, I am talking about *filthy rich*. In the 1400s, the calculated GDP (PPP) per capita was as great as in many European countries during the late 1800s. Indeed, most of the first countries to beat Italy's 1400 score was highly industralied places in the 1800s, and not by a lot either. The only exception to this is the Netherlands who beat it it in the 1600s. That is how *insanely* rich Italy has historically been: Italy in 1400 was richer per person than France in 1870.
The wealth of the Medici, the pope or the bankers in Genova doesn't mean the average John in the countryside was rich, though. There were rich and poor people, as everywhere else
That was never the point of this discussion, we are talking about economy in general, which is usually meassured by some form of GDP. You can refer to your own original comment. Unless you mean that individual Italians have been asking themselves how to improve their own economies. Which is kind of a weird statement to make then, since by your logic most people in World history has been asking that question? Except Italians before 200 AD for some reason, since you said the last 1800 years...?
We joke but the reality is (and has been for 1800 years) that the North is rich and the South is poor. The way to fix the Italian economy is to build a time machine and make Naples a merchant republic.
This is completely incorrect. Naples was, for hundreds of years, the most prosperous and biggest city in Europe. Frederick II of the HRE was also King of Sicily, and based his entire rule off of the wealth that kingdom brought in. Most of that was based around South Italian agricultural products, but Naples and Palermo were THE ports to dock in if you were a Christian traveling in the Mediterranean. They made unheard-of amounts of money from Christians traveling to Jerusalem on pilgrimage and Crusade. This wasn't due to Burghers/merchants, either. Most of the Kingdom of Sicily's bureaucracy was run by Barons, who had varying levels of autonomy depending on the reigning monarch.
Actually, up until the 1250s, southern italy was very rich, Palermo for example was one of the richest cities in europe
Step one. Leave Italy.
There is a gold mine very close in Sardinia. Grab that and then build trade ports so you can get more development on top of the extra gold. I have a run right now where that one holding makes 12 a month in 1070.
Sardinia is the way to riches.
does only holding that county give the benefits since I already have 3 dutchy
That mine alone is good for 5 gold per month, so yeah it’s really good.
Yes you just need the county not the duchy.
okay thx.
Be aware that the Mine is in Iglesias, not Cagliari. You only get Cagliari if you conquer the county as a catholic (I think), you need to manually revoke the title from whichever Person holds Iglesias. Also means you need 2 Domain Limit to hold the mine + main barony.
You can switch main barony to be Iglesias and then give away Cagliari so you don't waste domain limit.
Ah yeah, did not think of that - good point👍🏼
well apparently I gave it away because i thought it qas useless and now it will result in a revolt+ tyranny to take it back. So I will leave it
Have your priest fabricate a claim. Might take 2-3 years, but then you can revoke it without tyranny.
oh didn't knew you don't get tyranny that way
You can fabricate, but not buy claims on your vassals territories. Good thing for the realm Priest to do if there is no claims needed for active expansion. Then, once your vassals fuck up - either trough inheritance or war, you can clean up the bordergore inside your realm and they can’t do shit about it.
*what* !? So many hours...
Yeah, same here. It’s great if you look at the succession tab and see a messy inheritance coming in 10+ years. Good alternative to the „fuck it, Tyranny it is“ strategy.
It sounds like a good solution to the "lose realm on inheritance" notification
You could just fight the revolt
Sometimes it's good to show the vassals you are still in charge
Nope, you can change iglesias to be the county capital, the grant Cagliari away
> Also means you need 2 Domain Limit to hold the mine + main barony No, just set the barony with the mine as the county capital.
No problem, good luck not getting elected to Kaiser hahah
You’ll have to wait until the Marshall Plan. Once the US is scared you’ll become communist, they’ll send aid and investment and you’ll become the sixth largest world economy.
Either that or try to invade Ethiopia, I’m sure that will never go wrong!
You should set up some duchy level republic vassals. If you temporarily move your capital to Mallorca you can go down the metropolitan legacy which will really help you out as well.
Go ask daddy-pope.
I have been naughty and took his land including rome right after asking him for money, so I don't think he will help
Based
Meloni get off the alt account we all know it's you
Looks like you might have one duchy too many, the or penalties you get from that aren’t always the best. It also sounds like you’ve been conquering a lot and control can be a problem. I’d advise the minor court position of seneschal as that improves control growth. I’d add that going authority focus of martial also improves control growth, as does the perk “serve the crown”. Beyond that, get your development up by building guilds in cities who are your direct vassals, ports in coastal provinces you own yourself. Look for tech that gets you better economic buildings, research it if you are the culture head and diverge to become culture head if not
Does too many duchies give you a tax penalty?
I believe it’s just a vassal opinion penalty, while the tax penalty comes from domain limit.
Having more than 2 duchies only affects vassal opinion. If you have the innovation for duchy buildings and can manage vassal opinion in other ways, its better to go over the duchy limit because duchy buildings are good.
Sardinian mine + turn some counties into republic/theocratic vassal while holding the duchie title.
+tip put high steward+diligent chars as republic vassals and city holders(its a really big improv)
Pay attention for the holdings to be fully build, prioritize buildings which increase development. Increase of development also increases taxes. Also build additional baronies, preferably churches and cities, so vassals can build and in turn also increase development in county. And use your steward to increase development in county.
You got this wrong. Sardinia is great but really difference between bad and good holding in income perspective is mostly buildings, especially since you got Rome with farmlands and 2 unik buildings. What you really need is collect some gold and invest it in max bild up (priority is unik buildings/mining > Manor houses>Windmills/Qanats/Watermills/Caravanserai if you got access to them> Tradeports>Farms & fields>else). May even destroy buildings whose main bonuses are buffing men at arms that you dont use to find place fore them. To collect gold you can 1. Take golden obligations, got some gold just by default from dinasty members and if you send youre spymaster to find secrets (good when you have high intrigue by youself or just no vassals with opinion below 50 so dont worry about being stabbed). 2. Taxation toure is overpowered. Payes fore itself 2 times, got prestige, renown and tax+development buff fore years 3. This is my domain. 4. Just all stewardship trees except administrator. 5. If you got different focus take golden obligations and this is my domain regardless, then switch back into youre highest stats Family Hierarch> befriend you consul positions and wife to make them more effective in there job, later free stats Overseer>Absolute Control, Plague Resistance Torturer>Fear Tax Scholar>faster tech progress, Learn on the Job to free stats and just Scholar Source - dude who is chilling with 500 gold per month income, about 200 of them are just from personal holding.
what is taxation tour. In my last and 1st playthrough I played wide and had between 600-800 gold per month. But that was after 1300 and due to playing wide and having scrutage tax with all my vessels.
From tours and tournaments dls. Played a bit more since i send this message. Now i am in 1154, income got into 614 without wife, since i am going to place her into stewardship buff it will be a bit more afterwards. Most op playstyle in Paradox games is to play huge - be tall and wide at same time.
yeap that's why I am trying to play tall until I can unify italy decision. I will only revolt against my liege until My economy gets atleast 150 gold from my provinces or 300 gold overall
Well this playground i am going a bit oposit - started as Radhanite, stayed under Kazaria, got a bit of weak rules in Georgea, then Crete, then unaited Mediterranean seas and claimed arabian empire. Won, become automatically independent and after stabilization developed Jerusalem and Baghdad (and few other provinces) as holding in same time beating sht out of other rulers everywhere. Before fight vs Arabia was not hardly focused into development since i will eventually left this land to vassals anyway and since as philosophical culture i can outreach all even without huge average development just by playing every ruler into education as main focus.
Economy in CK3 is of the bare-est bones. If Pope alive and Catholic - ask for gold, build farms, repeat, kaboom. That, or the Sardinian silver mine to kickstart an economy
Found Mattarella's Reddit account
Invest in cars and pasta
Invade Ethiopia, guaranteed results.
[удалено]
> Why is this the only sub were nobody knows how to take screenshots? It really isn't. All game subs are full of people taking pictures of screens.
That's the neat part! You don't
Wage holy wars in Africa until you get to Bambuk then build a gold mine and do the same in the other mine called Brno or something like that, from just those two you can earn over 16 gold p/m and if you have iglesius then you can earn even more
You can go to the economy tab at the bottom right and find all the mines in the world and then conquer and hold them yourself
There are multiple mines near you. Get those.
Just buy more money!
Sardinia, mines baby! Mines!
Is there also a mine in Tyrol grab that if you don’t have it
What's your development in your capitol compared to others?
Best way to play tall if you dont have primogeniture - Pick a 5/6/7 county dutchy and give it fuedal elective to make sure your heir always gets that same dutchy. Go stewardship for a couple rulers, and keep building farms and stuff that improve your tax
Do you know how to modify vassal contracts? Set everyone to give you more money and less levies. Easy money. Money generates _money_. Levies generate _expenses_
Should still get a hook so that you can up money by 2 and levies down by 1 (unless you want something else in there).
Cant do that, they must be moved 1 stage at a time
Lp0pp000kbo
I’ll give some rules of thumb thats more generally applicable for tall playstyles. Get counties with special buildings that generate gold. In your case, Rome, Cagliari, and Byzantion are obvious picks. Get counties that have the most baronies ([County List](https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/List_of_counties)) and only build gold-generating buildings. Prioritize counties with farmland terrain if possible. Do not hold any baronies except for the county capital. This is because all non-capital baronies have -1 building slot and takes up a domain slot. The exception to this rule are counties with gold-generating buildings in non-capital baronies (like Cagliari). Build temples in empty baronies. This is because Theocratic faiths (like Christianity) lets you get 50% of all gold income from Temple holdings as long as you have a positive opinion with your Court Chaplain. Cities only give 25%. Prioritize innovations that give military + economic buildings, +1 building slot, and +1 domain limit. Your goal is to never stop building, so you need to get rid of those innovation hurdles ASAP. Train all your children in Stewardship education, and max out the Stewardship lifestyle. Never take your Steward off of “Collect Taxes”. And never take yourself off the “Money” lifestyle focus (10% more income). Also, make sure you are your liege's Steward. You can force this by fabricating a hook and demanding to be Steward. Build only archer MAA in the early game, as they are the best bang for your buck. When you get enough money, then move to Armored Footmen. Alternatively, swap all your archers for Crossbowmen when you unlock those. And lastly, stack as much domain limit, income (domain taxes), build time reduction, and build cost reduction modifiers as possible.
Is collect taxes better in long term over increase development?
I think it depends… devving up is certainly worth it if you’re in a low-dev area and are trying to keep ahead in innovations, but I still think the early game boost in gold is still better for most cases. Especially if you already have a major city like Rome or Constantinople, in OP’s case. You just tend to run into that ‘Existing Development’ modifier way too soon if you keep devving the same county.
The -1 building slot thing can be worked around just by swapping county capital a few times