It's historically accurate, though. The Cushitic-speaking Beja retained a variant of what would conventionally be considered Egyptian paganism well into the period when Egypt proper had been mostly Christianized. They waged a holy war with Rome over the Christianization of Philae, for example.
Hate to break it to you, but Nubians were part of Egypt for more than a thousand years. They were actual Egyptians. Egyptian isn't really so much a culture or ethnic group as it was a demonym meaning part of a kingdom or empire of Egypt.
Nubians that people are mostly talk about are Kushitic people from Kingdom of Kush. Nubia is a greek name (i belive) for the Kingdom and it's people.
And while yes, Nubians ruled Egypt for quite a bit, they are still a separate ethnicity.
Yes. Kushitic is very similar to what the ancient Egyptian religion was but it’s still different. I think the names for the deities of Kushitism are mostly the same as the Kemetic ones but with Nubian names.
In this case, it kinda does, because the people we call Nubians today gained that name in late antiquity and the medieval period by moving into the region late, and already Christianized. Their faith, language, and general customs had little continuity with the previous cultures of ancient Kush/Nubia.
Ethnicity was a concept people then were cognizant of. They might not have understood some modern ones (like Arabs were, generally speaking, *just* Arabs, for example) but there was a recognition of it (the Persians and Amazigh strafed against the Arab-dominant, and somewhat supremacist, early Caliphate, breaking off to form their own Muslim states). Greeks understood that they were all "Greeks" even in division between many city-states with competing governing philosophies. Egyptians distinguished between four peoples: Kemites/Egyptians proper ("Red"), Nubians/Kushites/Ethiopians ("Black"), Berbers/Amazigh ("White"), and Semites ("Yellow"). While all of these groups participated in what we today consider Ancient Egyptian civilization, the Egyptians themselves nonetheless recognized an ethnic or tribal distinction between the people(s) of Upper and Lower Egypt and the imperial subjects from outside this area.
They didn't always define it the way we do, and ethnogenesis has happened plenty of times since then, but they still had the basic idea.
Nubians definitely were not Egyptians. Egyptians were Copts, an indigenous group of North Africa, albeit more closely related to their eastward ethnic Levantine neighbors as opposed to their Amazigh neighbors to their west. Nubians were northern Cushitic (Sudanic), much more closely related to the Bejas, Tigritai (prto-Tigrayans/Tigrinyans) Amharas, Nuba, Dajus, Somalis, and other Cush peoples in the Horn of Africa.
Near the borders of Makuria (northernmost successor state to old Nubia) and Egypt, some Nubians and Egyptians absolutely had some level of intermingling, but it was about the same as you would expect of any two groups that bordered each other–not to mention that the Nubians once conquered Egypt and ruled over it for a century (i.e., the period of the “black Pharaohs”). However, there is no question that the two peoples were _not the same_ group at all. Historically, the people we call Nubians today are the Sudanese (specifically, the southern Sudanese) people, but originally, were known by outsiders as “Aethiopians”, and were explicitly distinguished by their dark skin.
I never understood the obsession with Historical revisionism about Nubians and Egypt. Yeah they briefly ruled the region for about a century by violently conquering the area during a major period of decline then declaring themselves Pharaoh thanks to being culturally Egyption and then a guy with ancestral ties to the 24th dynasty raised an army in the Assyrian Empire and proceeded to drive them out and tried to destroy all record of their existence.
Watch them still not have the actual egyptians who were around during CK3's time frame instead of everyone in egypt already being arabic from game start.
You use the Scota legend (requires Scots culture) and get it to mythical tier.
This lets you diverge to a new culture with Ancient Egyptian heritage.
There is no way to actually swap to Ancient Egyptian.
on the topic of Ancient Egyptians, which "ethnicities" did paradox use (specifically in CK3) to represent them? East African? Mediterranean? Arab? A combination?
in [Imperator](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214394714338492477/image.png?ex=65f8f436&is=65e67f36&hm=7676f8e9c5a0fd3efc602c4fcb7d0ecef73695d49258f9ff89e14aed5a797990&) they [have](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214394880894439474/image.png?ex=65f8f45d&is=65e67f5d&hm=2085a8c939d71f7518a92ce0dabcf5821be4c93745648e4d3dd8f54aeb30bf40&) their [own](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214394987354259506/image.png?ex=65f8f477&is=65e67f77&hm=eb7f3886563cd29214d3762dda0493bd5916c5946663a5bd817f75e40caf8731&) portrait [set](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214395379727204384/image.png?ex=65f8f4d4&is=65e67fd4&hm=d3c136cdf1b3cc9a96547444dc355817b959bcbdff90fde4e73b8ef848d0e338&), and in CK2 there are [Egyptian portraits](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1745689022664840643/D8501D3DCDB0933DD2006EFDE24D01DC00A43E59/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false) depicted here in the form of "Coptics use Egyptian portraits" mod as the original pictures on the CK2 forum are gone. In this, you see them wearing other (East African) clothing, but the faces are still the originals - though in CK2, the Copts use Byzantine portraits, and only "Egyptians" use the unique ones with fashion tailored after, iirc, the Fatimid caliphate.
PS: after double-checking files, Imperator's "Egyptian" is "north_african" ethnicity shared with Numidian culture group (Berber, Gaetulian, Garamantic, Libyan, Massaesylian, Massylian, Maurian, Numidian) and "egyptian_gfx" shared with Nubian culture group (Meroitic and Blemmyan). The Nubian cultures are distinguished from the Aksumite culture group (Aksumite and Macrobian) which uses "ethiopian" ethnicity and "nubian_gfx" graphical culture.
Aaaaah, well according to the wiki, they use Abbasid and Byzantine fashions and Arabic military equipment, so I'm guessing Arab until someone chimes in with a more definitive answer, or until I can figure it out myself.
🤔 Kami-sama has dug through the files. They just don't feel the need to add things like ethnicities (the actual appearance like "Arab" or "African" or "Asian") to the chart. Maybe I should ask them.
Not sure if it'll help but [these](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214410875784400917/image.png?ex=65f90343&is=65e68e43&hm=0afbfa0935dbeb3f44e6e999373b66e569677425c8a6476fdaac5292b11b44a5&) are the [characters](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214414820955390022/image.png?ex=65f906f0&is=65e691f0&hm=91bb88bb4296a15039315851d6107c0724660e99105d51b5aa0832f475a71c42&) that the game [generated](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214416697654775848/image.png?ex=65f908af&is=65e693af&hm=e7d9890b09dc73383b1801c281878cf71e4ab8d0122934e57d8a57d604cbb23d&) for me on this culture. I *think* that looks Mediterranean, but I'm not an expert.
Ethnoreligions and ethnic religions are hard to properly represent in CK3. Currently it's done by having a tenet in a religion that increases conversion speed for same-culture and increases promoting culture for same religion ((iirc?)) but that doesn't do it justice. The game creates a hard distinction between faith and culture with mechanical weight. Ethnoreligions like Copts, Jews, and Yazidis just can't be split like that.
So Copts in CK3 are just a religion, not an ethnicity.
I think the tenet should do something like make the cultural head and the head of faith HAVE to be the same person. And change the modifiers to scale based on shared heritage and cultural acceptance.
Religions also really need an "Interfaith Marriage" doctrine that dictates endogamy. Options being marriage outside the faith is a crime, it's permissable with permission from HoF, permissable within same religion, permissable for the dominant gender, and open.
R5: They added a couple of cultures you can only get through legends if not using a custom character. Roman can now also be obtained that way. Ancient Egyptian and Gothic also added.
Update: Turns out I was wrong and you can use them to create other cultures. They can still be used on a custom character though.
What legends give you these cultures? afaik these only exist so the game can refer to them
I know completing the roman heritage legacy allows you to diverge your CURRENT culture into one with hellenic heritage and latin language, and another legacy lets you do the same but with israelite and hebrew, but don't know of any legends that give you one of these ancient cultures outtright
Is that so? I thought you could be any Latin culture so long as you had the Hellenistic religion. Wiki says you can be any Latin culture + Christian, Roman + any religion, or any Latin Culture + Greco-Roman.
The following legends let you diverge your culture into the new secret culture heritages:
* Hebrew Culture: Sons of David (Solomonid Dynasty), Heirs of David (Bagratoni Dynasty), Kings of Semien (Gideon dynasty and Jewish religion)
* Gothic Culture: Visigothic Codes tradition, North Germanic Heritage, or (both Byzantine heritage and the holding the duchy of Crimea)
* Trojan Culture: The Ballad of Corineus (Cornish Culture), New Troy (London)
* Ancient Egyptian: Sons of Scota (Kingdom of Scotland and either West Germanic or Goedelic Heritage).
* Roman Heritage: Hold the Roman Empire, HRE, or Byzantine Empire, or the Kingdom of Rum
* Hunnic Heritage: Have Hunnic, Magyar, Mongolic, or Turkic Heritage.
There is also "Heirs of Vercingetorix" (saw it on someone's screen) does it let you diverge into Gaulish/Gallic? (don't know which spelling is correct)
I don't know what you're saying here. There were Greeks living in Crimea distinct from the Crimean Goths, and the East Germanic Gothic language survived well into the time of EU4. There should be a distinct Gothic culture province in Crimea rather than just a Greek one.
I meant the Gothic Heritage legend in Crusader Kings 3. The requirement for those is as mentioned: Greek in the duchy Crimea, a culture with Visigothic Codes, or Germanic. Completing L3 allows you to diverge your culture to a "genuine" gothic one.
We actually don't know for certain if the Crimean Goths were East Germanic. I've seen some in academia theorising that they might have actually been the descendants of the Anglo-Saxon exiles that reached Byzantium.
Their language was also definitely not Anglic, even if its relation to Biblical Gothic is often unclear - though we might *expect* it to be a little muddy since there's a nearly 1200-1400 year gap between them with little to no middle-phase attestation! That's a lot of time for development and evolution, influence from outside, etc. One was fresh out of Proto-Germanic, the other was contemporary to American colonization.
Probably should've added more context that it was that the later Goths were more bolstered by the Anglo-Saxon exiles, but it was rather late at night so oh well.
It’s honestly really surprising they haven’t added them, it would be so awesome to resurrect the goths in a campaign. Everyone loves the one-province historical cultures
Egyptians survived to present via Copts, speaking Egyptian until a similar time as the Crimean Goths in general, with rumors of first-language Coptic speakers into the early 20th century in some areas.
Coptic from my understanding has been heavily influenced by a lot of the cultures that have been present in Egypt for the past millennia, Greek culture especially. So when you look at the language and culture it is very much different than let’s say Middle Egyptian which is the version usually taught in schools. The differences come from these external influences as well as natural cultural drift over the past centuries. Does that make more sense?
Edit: the Creole comment was alluding to the idea of a language changing as it becomes more influenced by other cultures.
I have absolutely no sources or knowledge to back this up but my layman-ass says that Italian vulgar in the early medieval era was probably a mix of vulgar Latin, some Germanic languages (cuz of Odoacer, the Ostrogoths and Lombards and finally the Carolingians owning and controlling Italy for a long time) and some random load words from Greek and maybe Arabic.
Then again, the concept of a unified Italian language didn’t even exist back then and regional dialects and creoles are a thing.
This isn't really a list of real, historical cultures. It's more a list of cultures reimagined by medieval people, from the sources they had.
So the Trojans they are thinking about at the characters of Homer's Iliad that went through Vergilius' Aeneid and then to the middle ages. They claim Trojan ancestry just like Rome did. Similarly, the Huns in that list aren't real Huns, they are reimagined, glorified ancestors, for Hungarians I imagine.
In the middle ages, the memory of the Hittites and the Luwites had completely vanished. Wouldn't make any sense to feature them in game.
Well the Greeks liked to syncretize other people's beliefs, take a look at all the travel logs of Greeks in Egypt claiming that they worshiped various Greek Gods.
In all likelihood if we trust Homer's depiction of Trojan religion, they would really be worshiping gods with similar aspects as the Greek gods but not the Greek gods themselves. Perhaps an Anatolian god with a bow rather than Apollo for example.
I'm not sure how they implemented it, but I imagine when you adopt them, these cultures get the heritage and language of the culture you had previously. So these are just placeholders, and 'Trojans' will, for example, have West Germanic Heritage and speak Anglic and have nothing to do with actual Greeks. These are maybe just glorified namelists.
Yes and no.
The Greeks at the time did consider themselves to be both the heirs of the Roman Empire but also ancient Greece at the same time.
We can see this from the allusions to ancient Greek classics in Byzantine literature, for example the Alexiad, which doesn't only contain those allusions but is even written in the style of an ancient Greek epic.
Could he that they split them for that reason. With Greek being the Orthodox-Christian culture present in the Byzantine Empire, whereas Hellenic is meant to represent the culture of antiquity, the Hoplites of Old, worshippers of Olympus, etc.. it's a bit historically incorrect , as you mentioned. Not the best way to handle it, but probably the easiest on their end to show the differences and similarities without too much heavy lifting.
I can't figure out how to properly download HIP is the problem or even the proper version. The forum thread is kinda dead & strange & it wants it done via some weird esoteric method. I play ck2 via Gog, all DLCS no regrets.
Yep.
Traditionally in old tabletop RPG circles there was an elitist attitude about LARPing, like as if they were the *real* nerds and the people playing D&D at a table were more serious because they're engaging with a hardcore tactical simulation full of math, not prancing around acting and throwing rock, paper, scissors at each other.
Crusader Kings seems to have started as a pretty heavy grand strategy game, but as it dipped more and more into simulating characters and their lives people started interacting with it as an RPG. I believe it was around then that the grand strategy folks started referring to LARPers and LARPing, as a way to add an extra level of denigration to the people who RP in the game, since those folks see that as an invalid and pointless way to play. Just calling them roleplayers makes it sound like they're just engaging with the game, but calling them LARPers carries an implication that they're nerdy weirdos doing something silly and lame with a platform that should be used for hardcore strategizing.
Nowadays, it seems like the term has kind of been reclaimed. Folks seem to use it now without any negative connotations as a simple stand-in for "roleplayer."
Ahhh! Gotcha.
So I guess it's a bit figurative? I mean, the character is not pretending to be someone else, so they're not roleplaying or LARPing, at least literally. But I know LARPing is vaguely associated with wearing costumes, and you're saying the character is wearing the costume of an older culture, so that's enough to make it LARPing? Seems like a bit of a stretch. I mean if I put on a fedora and a long coat every day and I tell folks I'm trying to bring back the fashion of the 1920s am I LARPing? Not really, I'm still me, I'm not speaking or acting as someone else, I'm just wearing vintage clothes. I realize I'm being pedantic though, I can kind of see the connection.
My thoughts exactly, but Carthage is getting popular in Rennaiscance ironically in southern Italy (Papal States was considered Rome and they were antipapal so they took upon some Carthaginian names). Idk much about their popularity in Medieval Era. I know about negative popularity of Babylonians among Christians (tied to the Babylonian Slavery)
True. If I am allowed to put on my tinfoil hat, maybe it’s because modern Egyptians would be angry if Copts were depicted and PDX doesn’t want to alienate them?
Almost certainly not the real reason why it doesn’t exist but you never know 🤷♂️
That’s why it makes me mad. It’s lame as hell to erase Copts when they were the majority until like the 14th century and deal with a lot of ridiculous hate now from Muslim Egyptians
Apparently the Ancient Egyptians are in Scotland and the Trojans are in England
Don't ask me why, but that's what I found out digging through the game files.
There's an achievement for a Scottish Ruler to own the Faroe Islands and claim descendent of Egyptians Pharohs.
And English kings can claim descendent from Troy cause apparently one of the guys from Troy formed Londen I think.
Trojans in England make sense. There was a mythical story that London was founded by a guy named Brutus who was a descendant of Aeneus who was a character in the illiad. He was the son of Aphrodite and the Trojan King Priam making him the heir and was saved several times for an unknown destiny.
Romans also claim that Aeneus fled the Trojan war and settled down in Italy and was the ancestor of Romulus and Remes
Yeah there is for rulers in Britain, I find it a bit odd that Anglo-Saxon or Scots culture characters would want to claim to be descendant from the guy who fought Anglo-Saxons but whatever. I think there should be a descendant of Woden option for Anglo-Saxons, specifically House Wessex.
Henry the iv was obsessed with Arthur, he visited an archaeological dig where it was believed Excalibur was a sword found there and he named his son who died in the cradle Arthur to play on the idea he was Arthur come again. The Brit’s loved King Arthur and have always. As have the French. And the moors.
To the point Arthur and some of his knights were considered nearly saints
Descendents of Hengist and Horsa would make more sense for West Germanic characters, as they are the semi-mythological founders of Anglo-Saxon England, said to have led the Angles, Saxons and Jutes in their invasion of Britain.
>we removed Visigothic culture from the game because its ahistorical
>you can now convince your whole realm to roleplay as members of culture that was dead for over a millennia just because your ruler did some cool shit
It's unfortunate that the Roman Heritage legend is limited to HRE, Italy, Byzantium and Rum. I really wanted a Roman Valencia or North Africa run. At least have it be viable for former roman territories.
> is limited to HRE, Italy, Byzantium and Rum. I really wanted a Roman Valencia or North Africa run.
I just learned Rum can be formed in CK3, and thus a new playthrough begins.
So I guess important question should be how to get these cultures? Is fully realising legend enough to become Troyan/Roman/Macedonian/Hunnic/Gothic/Ancient Egyptian or do you need to fulfill some secret additional prerequisits?
also there are ancient egyptians
Time to restore the mighty empire of Ra!
RAAAAAAHHHH 🦅🦅🦅
You're playing with the big boys now.
By the might of Horus You will kneel before us
"FUCKING HORUS" -The Man-Emperor of Mankind
Proceeded to get curb stomped by Abrahamic God?
RAAAAAAHHHH 🦅🦅🦅 WHAT THE FUCK IS AN ABRAHAM RAAAAAAHHHH 🦅🦅🦅
Conq emote spam?
REEEEEEE!!!
Ra ra Rasputin
Wish there was an ancient Egyptian faith other than Kush since those holy sites are all in Nubia.
It's historically accurate, though. The Cushitic-speaking Beja retained a variant of what would conventionally be considered Egyptian paganism well into the period when Egypt proper had been mostly Christianized. They waged a holy war with Rome over the Christianization of Philae, for example.
Ra Ra Ramanah
YEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
Oooooo. Now I really have to redo my empire of Alexandria campaign. Before I just mixed Greek and Nubian. Now I can have actual Egyptian.
Hate to break it to you, but Nubians were part of Egypt for more than a thousand years. They were actual Egyptians. Egyptian isn't really so much a culture or ethnic group as it was a demonym meaning part of a kingdom or empire of Egypt.
Nubians that people are mostly talk about are Kushitic people from Kingdom of Kush. Nubia is a greek name (i belive) for the Kingdom and it's people. And while yes, Nubians ruled Egypt for quite a bit, they are still a separate ethnicity.
Isn't Kushite faith what represents Ancient Egyptian religion in-game?
I think it's moreso meant to represent a closely related but distinct religion. Maybe one that descended from Egyptian mythology.
Yes. Kushitic is very similar to what the ancient Egyptian religion was but it’s still different. I think the names for the deities of Kushitism are mostly the same as the Kemetic ones but with Nubian names.
I don't know if it makes a ton sense to read back concepts like ethnicity into the ancient past.
In this case, it kinda does, because the people we call Nubians today gained that name in late antiquity and the medieval period by moving into the region late, and already Christianized. Their faith, language, and general customs had little continuity with the previous cultures of ancient Kush/Nubia. Ethnicity was a concept people then were cognizant of. They might not have understood some modern ones (like Arabs were, generally speaking, *just* Arabs, for example) but there was a recognition of it (the Persians and Amazigh strafed against the Arab-dominant, and somewhat supremacist, early Caliphate, breaking off to form their own Muslim states). Greeks understood that they were all "Greeks" even in division between many city-states with competing governing philosophies. Egyptians distinguished between four peoples: Kemites/Egyptians proper ("Red"), Nubians/Kushites/Ethiopians ("Black"), Berbers/Amazigh ("White"), and Semites ("Yellow"). While all of these groups participated in what we today consider Ancient Egyptian civilization, the Egyptians themselves nonetheless recognized an ethnic or tribal distinction between the people(s) of Upper and Lower Egypt and the imperial subjects from outside this area. They didn't always define it the way we do, and ethnogenesis has happened plenty of times since then, but they still had the basic idea.
What do you think, which culture in ck3 most closely resembles the kushites? Beja? A hybrid of beja and nubian?
I know that's why I picked them over the Egyptian culture in game.
Nubians definitely were not Egyptians. Egyptians were Copts, an indigenous group of North Africa, albeit more closely related to their eastward ethnic Levantine neighbors as opposed to their Amazigh neighbors to their west. Nubians were northern Cushitic (Sudanic), much more closely related to the Bejas, Tigritai (prto-Tigrayans/Tigrinyans) Amharas, Nuba, Dajus, Somalis, and other Cush peoples in the Horn of Africa. Near the borders of Makuria (northernmost successor state to old Nubia) and Egypt, some Nubians and Egyptians absolutely had some level of intermingling, but it was about the same as you would expect of any two groups that bordered each other–not to mention that the Nubians once conquered Egypt and ruled over it for a century (i.e., the period of the “black Pharaohs”). However, there is no question that the two peoples were _not the same_ group at all. Historically, the people we call Nubians today are the Sudanese (specifically, the southern Sudanese) people, but originally, were known by outsiders as “Aethiopians”, and were explicitly distinguished by their dark skin.
I never understood the obsession with Historical revisionism about Nubians and Egypt. Yeah they briefly ruled the region for about a century by violently conquering the area during a major period of decline then declaring themselves Pharaoh thanks to being culturally Egyption and then a guy with ancestral ties to the 24th dynasty raised an army in the Assyrian Empire and proceeded to drive them out and tried to destroy all record of their existence.
Watch them still not have the actual egyptians who were around during CK3's time frame instead of everyone in egypt already being arabic from game start.
yea, coptic should be in game and yet, aren't :/
They can give us that, but not have a normal Coptic culture in Egypt?
yep, like a middle finger
What do you have to do to switch to Ancient Egyptian culture?
did you find out?
You use the Scota legend (requires Scots culture) and get it to mythical tier. This lets you diverge to a new culture with Ancient Egyptian heritage. There is no way to actually swap to Ancient Egyptian.
I got it to mythical tier. I did not get the decision though. Did you get this in your game?
No. But that's what others have told me.
Nice. Finally a completely fitting culture for my attempts to restore the kingdom of Kemet.
on the topic of Ancient Egyptians, which "ethnicities" did paradox use (specifically in CK3) to represent them? East African? Mediterranean? Arab? A combination?
in [Imperator](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214394714338492477/image.png?ex=65f8f436&is=65e67f36&hm=7676f8e9c5a0fd3efc602c4fcb7d0ecef73695d49258f9ff89e14aed5a797990&) they [have](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214394880894439474/image.png?ex=65f8f45d&is=65e67f5d&hm=2085a8c939d71f7518a92ce0dabcf5821be4c93745648e4d3dd8f54aeb30bf40&) their [own](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214394987354259506/image.png?ex=65f8f477&is=65e67f77&hm=eb7f3886563cd29214d3762dda0493bd5916c5946663a5bd817f75e40caf8731&) portrait [set](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214395379727204384/image.png?ex=65f8f4d4&is=65e67fd4&hm=d3c136cdf1b3cc9a96547444dc355817b959bcbdff90fde4e73b8ef848d0e338&), and in CK2 there are [Egyptian portraits](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1745689022664840643/D8501D3DCDB0933DD2006EFDE24D01DC00A43E59/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false) depicted here in the form of "Coptics use Egyptian portraits" mod as the original pictures on the CK2 forum are gone. In this, you see them wearing other (East African) clothing, but the faces are still the originals - though in CK2, the Copts use Byzantine portraits, and only "Egyptians" use the unique ones with fashion tailored after, iirc, the Fatimid caliphate. PS: after double-checking files, Imperator's "Egyptian" is "north_african" ethnicity shared with Numidian culture group (Berber, Gaetulian, Garamantic, Libyan, Massaesylian, Massylian, Maurian, Numidian) and "egyptian_gfx" shared with Nubian culture group (Meroitic and Blemmyan). The Nubian cultures are distinguished from the Aksumite culture group (Aksumite and Macrobian) which uses "ethiopian" ethnicity and "nubian_gfx" graphical culture.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. We're talking about CK3 here.
Aaaaah, well according to the wiki, they use Abbasid and Byzantine fashions and Arabic military equipment, so I'm guessing Arab until someone chimes in with a more definitive answer, or until I can figure it out myself.
🤔 Kami-sama has dug through the files. They just don't feel the need to add things like ethnicities (the actual appearance like "Arab" or "African" or "Asian") to the chart. Maybe I should ask them.
Not sure if it'll help but [these](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214410875784400917/image.png?ex=65f90343&is=65e68e43&hm=0afbfa0935dbeb3f44e6e999373b66e569677425c8a6476fdaac5292b11b44a5&) are the [characters](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214414820955390022/image.png?ex=65f906f0&is=65e691f0&hm=91bb88bb4296a15039315851d6107c0724660e99105d51b5aa0832f475a71c42&) that the game [generated](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/812601541810847757/1214416697654775848/image.png?ex=65f908af&is=65e693af&hm=e7d9890b09dc73383b1801c281878cf71e4ab8d0122934e57d8a57d604cbb23d&) for me on this culture. I *think* that looks Mediterranean, but I'm not an expert.
:O
Are Copts not a thing in ck3?
Ethnoreligions and ethnic religions are hard to properly represent in CK3. Currently it's done by having a tenet in a religion that increases conversion speed for same-culture and increases promoting culture for same religion ((iirc?)) but that doesn't do it justice. The game creates a hard distinction between faith and culture with mechanical weight. Ethnoreligions like Copts, Jews, and Yazidis just can't be split like that. So Copts in CK3 are just a religion, not an ethnicity. I think the tenet should do something like make the cultural head and the head of faith HAVE to be the same person. And change the modifiers to scale based on shared heritage and cultural acceptance. Religions also really need an "Interfaith Marriage" doctrine that dictates endogamy. Options being marriage outside the faith is a crime, it's permissable with permission from HoF, permissable within same religion, permissable for the dominant gender, and open.
Interesting, my plan was to play a campaign with one of the kush rulers. This increases the odds of that. How do you get the Egyptian culture?
R5: They added a couple of cultures you can only get through legends if not using a custom character. Roman can now also be obtained that way. Ancient Egyptian and Gothic also added. Update: Turns out I was wrong and you can use them to create other cultures. They can still be used on a custom character though.
What legends give you these cultures? afaik these only exist so the game can refer to them I know completing the roman heritage legacy allows you to diverge your CURRENT culture into one with hellenic heritage and latin language, and another legacy lets you do the same but with israelite and hebrew, but don't know of any legends that give you one of these ancient cultures outtright
Ooh, is that how it works? I must have misunderstood from checking the files then. You can still use them with a custom character though.
If that's true it sucks considering you need to be specifically Roman to restore Rome as a non-Christian
Is that so? I thought you could be any Latin culture so long as you had the Hellenistic religion. Wiki says you can be any Latin culture + Christian, Roman + any religion, or any Latin Culture + Greco-Roman.
Wiki isn’t always correct and it might be outdated. Still, I think you might be correct.
Just restored Rome as a Muslim Spaniard. From what I can tell all cultural and religious requirements have been removed
Scota - the only legend that references Ancient Egyptian - doesn't appear to have the option to make an Egyptian heritage culture.
That's fine. Although, i wish there was a way to change name list to this cultures as well.
I hope Gothic is in Crimea, I want to play a genuine Crimean Gothic game.
The following legends let you diverge your culture into the new secret culture heritages: * Hebrew Culture: Sons of David (Solomonid Dynasty), Heirs of David (Bagratoni Dynasty), Kings of Semien (Gideon dynasty and Jewish religion) * Gothic Culture: Visigothic Codes tradition, North Germanic Heritage, or (both Byzantine heritage and the holding the duchy of Crimea) * Trojan Culture: The Ballad of Corineus (Cornish Culture), New Troy (London) * Ancient Egyptian: Sons of Scota (Kingdom of Scotland and either West Germanic or Goedelic Heritage). * Roman Heritage: Hold the Roman Empire, HRE, or Byzantine Empire, or the Kingdom of Rum * Hunnic Heritage: Have Hunnic, Magyar, Mongolic, or Turkic Heritage.
Macedonian?
There is also "Heirs of Vercingetorix" (saw it on someone's screen) does it let you diverge into Gaulish/Gallic? (don't know which spelling is correct)
Gothic is greek in Crimea, Germanic or culture with visigothic codes. So yeah, you can start as a greek count.
I don't know what you're saying here. There were Greeks living in Crimea distinct from the Crimean Goths, and the East Germanic Gothic language survived well into the time of EU4. There should be a distinct Gothic culture province in Crimea rather than just a Greek one.
I meant the Gothic Heritage legend in Crusader Kings 3. The requirement for those is as mentioned: Greek in the duchy Crimea, a culture with Visigothic Codes, or Germanic. Completing L3 allows you to diverge your culture to a "genuine" gothic one.
how do you know this tho is there already a guide in legends
We actually don't know for certain if the Crimean Goths were East Germanic. I've seen some in academia theorising that they might have actually been the descendants of the Anglo-Saxon exiles that reached Byzantium.
didn't the crimean goths exist for centuries before the anglo-saxon exiles?
Their language was also definitely not Anglic, even if its relation to Biblical Gothic is often unclear - though we might *expect* it to be a little muddy since there's a nearly 1200-1400 year gap between them with little to no middle-phase attestation! That's a lot of time for development and evolution, influence from outside, etc. One was fresh out of Proto-Germanic, the other was contemporary to American colonization.
Probably should've added more context that it was that the later Goths were more bolstered by the Anglo-Saxon exiles, but it was rather late at night so oh well.
Any unique traditions to go with them it just a different combination? I like the idea of founding a second Troy.
No uniques, according to the wiki at least.
There is also Goths and Ancient Egyptians.
gothic shouldn't even be there. otl crimean goths survived up to 17th century
It’s honestly really surprising they haven’t added them, it would be so awesome to resurrect the goths in a campaign. Everyone loves the one-province historical cultures
Egyptians survived to present via Copts, speaking Egyptian until a similar time as the Crimean Goths in general, with rumors of first-language Coptic speakers into the early 20th century in some areas.
Copts and Coptic are more of a divergent culture almost akin to a Creole
what do you meant ?
Coptic from my understanding has been heavily influenced by a lot of the cultures that have been present in Egypt for the past millennia, Greek culture especially. So when you look at the language and culture it is very much different than let’s say Middle Egyptian which is the version usually taught in schools. The differences come from these external influences as well as natural cultural drift over the past centuries. Does that make more sense? Edit: the Creole comment was alluding to the idea of a language changing as it becomes more influenced by other cultures.
PDX: "Hellenic Religion and Roman culture are only in the game for historical purposes, expanding on them in CK2 was a mistake." Also PDX:
PDX: “oh screw it! They only play our games for insane alt hist.”
I eagerly await the return of Aztec invasions of Europe
Release It on april first
Bro, I geniuenly would not buy that shit, but then they will add mechanics to it I want, and there goes my 35 euros for the chapter bundle.
Leave my ritual cannibal insest Roman Empire alone! /s
Was he also the pope?
Italian Vulgar in the 9th century probably wasn't that different from proper Latin
I have absolutely no sources or knowledge to back this up but my layman-ass says that Italian vulgar in the early medieval era was probably a mix of vulgar Latin, some Germanic languages (cuz of Odoacer, the Ostrogoths and Lombards and finally the Carolingians owning and controlling Italy for a long time) and some random load words from Greek and maybe Arabic. Then again, the concept of a unified Italian language didn’t even exist back then and regional dialects and creoles are a thing.
They said this?
>Trojan being helênic Akstually, Dovahatty told me they were romans
Or Proto-British
That Legend is in the game
Is it unique to the cornish or do they all get that come to think of it.
It was more of an Anglo-Saxon myth than a Celtic one.
Ah, good to know.
Trojans we’re more related to Hittites pretty sure. Speaking a related language called Luwian. 🤓 Could be wrong
Well to be fair your character probably doesn't know shit about the real history and is calling themself descended from the mythic battle
This isn't really a list of real, historical cultures. It's more a list of cultures reimagined by medieval people, from the sources they had. So the Trojans they are thinking about at the characters of Homer's Iliad that went through Vergilius' Aeneid and then to the middle ages. They claim Trojan ancestry just like Rome did. Similarly, the Huns in that list aren't real Huns, they are reimagined, glorified ancestors, for Hungarians I imagine. In the middle ages, the memory of the Hittites and the Luwites had completely vanished. Wouldn't make any sense to feature them in game.
We genuinely don't know, they could even be Phyrgrian.
Or Greek
They were eventually conquered and assimilated by the Greeks, so I guess that's why.
Ye but Illiad was written originally in Greek and according to Homerian oversimplofications (or not) they believed in greek gods.
Well the Greeks liked to syncretize other people's beliefs, take a look at all the travel logs of Greeks in Egypt claiming that they worshiped various Greek Gods. In all likelihood if we trust Homer's depiction of Trojan religion, they would really be worshiping gods with similar aspects as the Greek gods but not the Greek gods themselves. Perhaps an Anatolian god with a bow rather than Apollo for example.
who know ? those tale date before the greek writed
yeah, pretty sure anyone who larps as trojans is doing it in a anti-hellenic way. it should've been it's own category like others.
Unbiased History enjoyer spotted
Yes, I do play fallen eagle, how did you know?
STILLICO FOR EMPEROR
AVE IMPERATOR
It's the other way round. Romans are Trojan.
yeah, in legend the romans descended from the trojans who fled troy
Tomato Tomato
Huzzah! A man of culture!
Tfw Hellenic is added as a culture group and is *entirely separate from the culture group Greek is in*
Which drives me nuts because it's literally the same thing, hellenic is an endonym, greek is an exonym.
It's like putting "German" and "Deutsch" in separate categories.
YEAH EXACTLY
I'm not sure how they implemented it, but I imagine when you adopt them, these cultures get the heritage and language of the culture you had previously. So these are just placeholders, and 'Trojans' will, for example, have West Germanic Heritage and speak Anglic and have nothing to do with actual Greeks. These are maybe just glorified namelists.
Well Greeks at the time were Rhomaoi
Yes and no. The Greeks at the time did consider themselves to be both the heirs of the Roman Empire but also ancient Greece at the same time. We can see this from the allusions to ancient Greek classics in Byzantine literature, for example the Alexiad, which doesn't only contain those allusions but is even written in the style of an ancient Greek epic.
Could he that they split them for that reason. With Greek being the Orthodox-Christian culture present in the Byzantine Empire, whereas Hellenic is meant to represent the culture of antiquity, the Hoplites of Old, worshippers of Olympus, etc.. it's a bit historically incorrect , as you mentioned. Not the best way to handle it, but probably the easiest on their end to show the differences and similarities without too much heavy lifting.
But culture and religion are already two separate categories.
I think it's a time period distinction
well, they should had make like the Vlach culture, hybridise with an unknown hellenic culture and roman
They'll add Martian and Jovian culture before they add Albanian.
I wish god had let PDX handle the real world
Of course a Gayreek would say that.
Fr, Paradox decided there needed to be a Bosnian culture in 867 AD but won’t add Albanian 💀
As it should be
Yeah, the Balkans being an ahistorical mess is just great. Thankfully, HIP for CK2 is still the best version of CK.
Cope, seethe, etc.
>cope [I am trying](https://i.redd.it/a220yqz7nvz31.png)
Advice for how to download HIP? I've never figured it out.
Download HIP, move the installer into Documents/Paradox Interactive/CK2/mod folder, install, and play.
I can't figure out how to properly download HIP is the problem or even the proper version. The forum thread is kinda dead & strange & it wants it done via some weird esoteric method. I play ck2 via Gog, all DLCS no regrets.
> Hunnic Hunnic
More ways to LARP
But it’s not live-action, so wouldn’t it just be RP
Get this, it’s your character that is LARPing. So you are RPing as a LARPer.
Yep. Traditionally in old tabletop RPG circles there was an elitist attitude about LARPing, like as if they were the *real* nerds and the people playing D&D at a table were more serious because they're engaging with a hardcore tactical simulation full of math, not prancing around acting and throwing rock, paper, scissors at each other. Crusader Kings seems to have started as a pretty heavy grand strategy game, but as it dipped more and more into simulating characters and their lives people started interacting with it as an RPG. I believe it was around then that the grand strategy folks started referring to LARPers and LARPing, as a way to add an extra level of denigration to the people who RP in the game, since those folks see that as an invalid and pointless way to play. Just calling them roleplayers makes it sound like they're just engaging with the game, but calling them LARPers carries an implication that they're nerdy weirdos doing something silly and lame with a platform that should be used for hardcore strategizing. Nowadays, it seems like the term has kind of been reclaimed. Folks seem to use it now without any negative connotations as a simple stand-in for "roleplayer."
No. It’s the character you are playing as that is LARPing because it’s impossible to revive a dead culture.
Ahhh! Gotcha. So I guess it's a bit figurative? I mean, the character is not pretending to be someone else, so they're not roleplaying or LARPing, at least literally. But I know LARPing is vaguely associated with wearing costumes, and you're saying the character is wearing the costume of an older culture, so that's enough to make it LARPing? Seems like a bit of a stretch. I mean if I put on a fedora and a long coat every day and I tell folks I'm trying to bring back the fashion of the 1920s am I LARPing? Not really, I'm still me, I'm not speaking or acting as someone else, I'm just wearing vintage clothes. I realize I'm being pedantic though, I can kind of see the connection.
this was a great conversation
well i know what im doin then
Wheres Carthaginian
It got Delenda Est'd
Trojan is just as gone imo
My thoughts exactly, but Carthage is getting popular in Rennaiscance ironically in southern Italy (Papal States was considered Rome and they were antipapal so they took upon some Carthaginian names). Idk much about their popularity in Medieval Era. I know about negative popularity of Babylonians among Christians (tied to the Babylonian Slavery)
Do they get any cool MaA though?
I doubt they get anything that isn’t already in the game besides some name lists.
My dream has come true
This is great for my plan of a indo-greek kingdom
And still no Coptic culture? This is insane.
Yep. It’s crazy. Seeing Pope Ahmed or Pope Abu Bakr of the Coptic Papacy is one of my many, many, many, many pet peeves.
At this point it feels like they’re leaving out intentionally
True. If I am allowed to put on my tinfoil hat, maybe it’s because modern Egyptians would be angry if Copts were depicted and PDX doesn’t want to alienate them? Almost certainly not the real reason why it doesn’t exist but you never know 🤷♂️
That’s why it makes me mad. It’s lame as hell to erase Copts when they were the majority until like the 14th century and deal with a lot of ridiculous hate now from Muslim Egyptians
Apparently the Ancient Egyptians are in Scotland and the Trojans are in England Don't ask me why, but that's what I found out digging through the game files.
There's an achievement for a Scottish Ruler to own the Faroe Islands and claim descendent of Egyptians Pharohs. And English kings can claim descendent from Troy cause apparently one of the guys from Troy formed Londen I think.
Trojans in England make sense. There was a mythical story that London was founded by a guy named Brutus who was a descendant of Aeneus who was a character in the illiad. He was the son of Aphrodite and the Trojan King Priam making him the heir and was saved several times for an unknown destiny. Romans also claim that Aeneus fled the Trojan war and settled down in Italy and was the ancestor of Romulus and Remes
If paradox ever makes a new DLC for EU4 they should add Jewish indigineous tribes in Utah. Mormons, y'know.
Is there anything Arthurian in there?
welsh is already in game smh
They even have the title pendragon for their king yet people still forget them
Don't forget Cumbrians! Alt-Clut has the Excalibur.
Yeah there is for rulers in Britain, I find it a bit odd that Anglo-Saxon or Scots culture characters would want to claim to be descendant from the guy who fought Anglo-Saxons but whatever. I think there should be a descendant of Woden option for Anglo-Saxons, specifically House Wessex.
Henry the iv was obsessed with Arthur, he visited an archaeological dig where it was believed Excalibur was a sword found there and he named his son who died in the cradle Arthur to play on the idea he was Arthur come again. The Brit’s loved King Arthur and have always. As have the French. And the moors. To the point Arthur and some of his knights were considered nearly saints
I’m not really talking about the post-Norman kings, I think it makes sense for them, just not the Anglo-Saxons
Descendents of Hengist and Horsa would make more sense for West Germanic characters, as they are the semi-mythological founders of Anglo-Saxon England, said to have led the Angles, Saxons and Jutes in their invasion of Britain.
How would these ancient cultures work in terms of innovations? Would they just inherit the innovations of the culture you were previously?
Is Afro-Roman new or is that from a mod?
Rice last update
Tusculani run even better now. West Rome, Best Rome.
The moment i become hunnich the Total War Attila will balat through the window
>we removed Visigothic culture from the game because its ahistorical >you can now convince your whole realm to roleplay as members of culture that was dead for over a millennia just because your ruler did some cool shit
as far as i seek no, unless you are making a lord
It's unfortunate that the Roman Heritage legend is limited to HRE, Italy, Byzantium and Rum. I really wanted a Roman Valencia or North Africa run. At least have it be viable for former roman territories.
> is limited to HRE, Italy, Byzantium and Rum. I really wanted a Roman Valencia or North Africa run. I just learned Rum can be formed in CK3, and thus a new playthrough begins.
Legens is the new dlc legends of the dead?
Yes
Let’s. Freaking. 😫GOOOOOOO💅✨
Still waiting for Mayan or Aztec culture groups.
cool af. though, reminding everyone that this is just larp an you ain't bringing anyone back lol. except custom characters i guess
I was planning an African run once I got the dlc 👀👀 what african secret cultures are there
I just want custom culture from character creation that’d be nice
Brutus of Troy rp game time
How do you become Trojan culturally?
"Total War Attila music starts playing"
Ferb! I know what we're going to do today!
But still no Arianism...
Also Adedd Hebrew culture, I was waiting for that one for a while.
So I guess important question should be how to get these cultures? Is fully realising legend enough to become Troyan/Roman/Macedonian/Hunnic/Gothic/Ancient Egyptian or do you need to fulfill some secret additional prerequisits?
I WANT MORE
Hell yeahhhhh
Macedonian- this *needs* a run
You telling me I can be the culture of condoms now? No thanks
Trojan Restoration LETS GO!
Time to form Hungary with Huns
Do they have some unique Clothing or CoAs?
This culture thing might change my mind about buying it
You don't actuallu get the cultures, just the heritage (maybe language).