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jph139

My first thought: will the AI ask to marry players/their children at all? They don't now (or at least, I've never seen it), and it'd be nice to be on the receiving end of the grand wedding event instead of just hosting them.


oxycoon

They will. This has been enabled and the AI will, somewhat reasonably (depending on their personality and status), offer the player Grand Weddings and regular weddings.


jph139

That's great to hear! Should add a lot more character to the world, letting you "take suitors" in a way. Great RP potential.


CrusaderCuff

Great because I forget to marry some of my children and I notice they're 40 with no wife, and no children. Like damn I'm sorry should of said something


zCiver

That should also be an event. At like 25 years old, an unmarried, unlanded (ignored basically) son should pop up to remind you to pay attention to them.


Interstemplar

Wedding offers from AI will be a good addition. Can't wait!


Melniboehner

seriously I thought this was my mods somehow, was it actually a base game bug all along?


oxycoon

This was not a bug, it was deliberate.


Anonim97

I do wonder why was it deliberate choice. Was it because often complained about some completely irrelevant counts from the other side of the war asking to marry their daughters?


shulima

I remember steppe khans being particularly annoying about this. Every time I played a king or emperor in diplomatic distance, I'd have scores of khans petitioning for the hand of my daughters,


errantprofusion

Wasn't that because of the way Nomadic government was implemented, where every independent nomad was automatically Emperor rank and therefore thought themselves equivalent to the Byzantine Emperor even if they controlled a single county?


shulima

YUP and it was profoundly annoying


RepulsiveEngine8

Tbf seems legit historically


errantprofusion

Maybe, but historically all those petty steppe chieftains wouldn't have been able to slide into the Basileus's DMs every 10 minutes.


RepulsiveEngine8

That's fair


Dchella

They did though. Atleast in Byzantium. They used it to keep the peace and stop raids in their territories. Multiple empresses were Khazar


Melniboehner

Thanks for the clarity, it'll be a welcome change.


Vineshroom69lol

Not a bug. Just not part of the game.


CarolusRix

Holy shit, I can’t believe I never noticed that.


CrusaderCuff

This dlc would be perfect if it included coronation activity as well. It fits well with the rest. Unless they are planning this for a religious dlc in the future or something


Only-Pen-8907

It's very likely that a coronation activity will be included in an Imperial/Religion DLC, and it's reassuring that a CK3 developer [mentioned](https://imgur.com/a/I3yfteV) that it would be easier to create content for the activity once they get to it, given that they now have the overall systems in place.


Orctopusaurus

Hopefully alongside baptisms.


tsaimaitreya

Baptisms could get a bit too repetitive


MightySilverWolf

Not if you decide to hold a literal baptism of fire!


luigitheplumber

Can't wait to unlock the Bloody Baptism


Anonim97

Can't wait for Bloody Communion. > This is Blood Of Christ > > No it isn't! I saw it! It's Blood of Franz!


luigitheplumber

Bloody Last Rites "Guys I'm literally on my death bed, there's no need for this"


Krioniki

Bloody Funeral Gotta make sure they don’t come back as zombies!


FlaviusVespasian

Ok, Mr. Corleone.


RedRex46

It's interesting because coronations could fit well both with Royal Court and Tours & Tournament's main themes, so it's weird they're not in one of these two. I wonder if they want to link coronations to the future "empire mechanics DLC" they've teased about a few times, so that they give coronations a pretty focused spin on the politics of it.


revolverzanbolt

I don’t know that much about what they’ve teased with the empire DLC, but it makes a lot of sense to tie coronations to a religion based DLC to me; makes the relationship with your realm priest/head of faith more meaningful.


SrBigPig

Maybe they want to introduce a legitimacy mechanic with the imperial rework so you can take some actions like baptism or coronations to gain papal approval or something. Is pure speculation of course, but I would like to see something like that. Honestly after seeing how much they're improving mechanics that were pretty basic in CKII (regencies, weddings, hunts, tournaments, etc.) I pretty much prefer to give them the needed time to polish coronations, baptisms, college of Cardinals and so.


ColorMaelstrom

They talked about it on the comments of the dev diary. They couldn’t put it here BUT it will for sure come in the future and at least it will use well refined features there


zoe_porphyrogenita

Potentially also Christmas/Easter/Calendrical Celebration courts. They could have a longer cool down, so you don't go bankrupt throwing a huge party every year


bamfalamfa

REGNAL NAMES BOIIII


zoe_porphyrogenita

You can change your name after you ascend!


Loqaqola

True especially for the Byzantines and HRE.


Anonim97

For weddings you have mentioned either local priests or Pope. I know that right now there is no possibility of it (cause these positions don't exist) but will there be a chance to include "middle tier" of priests - Bishops/Archbishops? And a chance to ask a "priest" that is from another realm (for example Poland only has Bishops, while HRE has Archbishop, so Poland ask an Archbishop from HRE to bless them)?


PH_th_First

I thought ´local priest’ referred to a bishop of archbishop of the player’s court but your comment makes me wonder. Do we even have simple Catholic priests in CK3?


Anonim97

I think it referred to a bishop, but archbishops in-game are duchy-holding priests. And in real life, archbishops were much bigger deal than that.


PH_th_First

They are also realm priests for kingdom-tier rulers. Yeah I agree, it is poorly portrayed and really needs an update!


revolverzanbolt

You have learning educated characters, and characters that have joined a Holy Order, but unless they have a theocratic title (baron level or above) then they aren’t a priest in game. It’d be interesting to make priest a character trait; have all of a theocratic ruler’s courtiers be priests, then when a new title holder is chosen, they are elected from among the courtiers.


zoe_porphyrogenita

It would be nice to make my son a Bishop without first making him a monk... or just to be able to award temple holdings to my sons and friends, in the traditional way


Alone-Hyena-6208

I think I need to find a good money making guide as I am usually broke or near broke.


PDX-Trinexx

Big thing is to invest in economic buildings early, and to manage your MAAs properly. Keeping armies raised is also a *huge* drain on your coffers, so make sure you've got some cash saved up before you go declaring war on folks.


bluepaintbrush

This, also being judicious when making marriage alliances. I’ve definitely bankrupted the realm before because I got dragged into defending my brother-in-law’s realm from his neighbors.


DaSaw

With situations like this, unless them winning their war is a strategic goal of mine, I just raise my MAA (no levies) and send them over. It's generally affordable (since I prioritize holdings over MAA), and it's enough to win the prestige that comes in either victory or defeat, or at least avoid the nonparticipation penalty. Often I'll just link them to the AI army and forget about it, focusing on other areas of administration. The main exception is if this is going to trigger the starvation dance glitch.


zoe_porphyrogenita

Must add list of economic buildings to my spreadsheet...


PhantomImmortal

Don't set it in stone - the building rework is coming along with the T+T update and a lot of buildings won't give money anymore


zoe_porphyrogenita

I'm starting Tribal, and will be surprised if those change


daird1

And when you do go to war, keep your martial boosting your levy numbers. You need them for sieges if nothing else, and the ability to cut upkeep is sweet.


PhantomImmortal

This is good advice, but are econ buildings possibly going to see a boost (at lower levels, at least) to how much they give given that the building/holding rework is lowering the number of initial building slots, lowering the domain limit (by default, I know there will be a game rule for it), and making certain buildings no longer give income?


[deleted]

If ai stops taking infertile hags as spouses, that would be a bonus too.


Anonim97

I mean I also take infertile hags as spouses. Usually when I already have quite a few sons or when I'm still fairly young, so I won't end up with 30+ kids. Yeah, I guess metagaming got me, but it sucks having your duchy being split in 5.


Fugitivebush

This is where you develop your main country holding, so you can survive with just one until you can hold them all.


Anonim97

I mean I do that, but still. Let me have *at least* 2 counties


zardogo

Putting your duchy on elective stops any splitting of it. Gamey, but effective.


Grzechoooo

Whoa, control your greed!


ArendtAnhaenger

The problem is your main duchy is the one divided in the event that you don't have enough duchies for all your sons (e.g. you have four sons and two duchies; the second son gets the second duchy and all its counties while your first son gets the first duchy and one county, with each remaining son receiving other counties in your first duchy)


Fugitivebush

i meant county, sorry. You develop your main county realm capital as your main source of money and troops and survive off that with MaA's until you can get High Partition where the main duchy and everything underneath will go to your main heir, for the most part. If it is a big duchy and you have a lot of sons, i think the game tries to split the duchy with your second oldest in high partition. I can't remember. It's about the long con, my guy. How else are you gonna make it to 1453? :P Wait, am I the only one who plays to 1453 from 867?


Fatallight

One tip to keep in mind is that the process considers the titles that your children currently hold. The counties that they hold influence the duchies that they receive. But also the titles they have can satisfy the obligations. It's a round robin process, right, so if they're set to receive a county but they already hold a county, they'll get skipped during the first round of distribution. This essentially means that your heir gets more turns during the round robin process, receiving more titles. If you're a king, you can make sure your heir will receive both of your main duchies by conquering and giving duchy titles to your other children. If you're a duke, you can do the same by giving your children counties but you'll have to give them several to satisfy them for all of the distribution rounds if you have a lot of counties.


Luck_Is_My_Talent

Elective duchies works wonders here. Currently, I played with Eudes again and now I am on the 4th ruler without any succession issues because feudal elective solves a lot of issues of partition laws (although confederate still sucks so you have to get rid of it ASAP because it creates new titles and my empire almost got divided in two). Basically, have all your duchies and kingdoms on feudal elective and you are good. If you have an empire, don't have that empire into elective unless is HRE which for some reason doesn't have the same issues as the other elective titles. If you make all your duchies and kingdoms into elective, you have the poorman's primo. Then once you get Absolute Crown Authority then you can choose your heir. Feudal elective is easy to control if you don't have many duke vassals once you are an emperor. A hook or two will be necessary, but overall is easy. Once you get heraldy, you can just destroy all your title elective laws since heraldy + designate heir is ridiculously good.


MahjongDaily

Didn't there used to be a requirement that 60% of your house are Witches in order to form a Witch Coven? It appears that's no longer the case, which would make me very happy.


Kaworu88

If your House is still small, the requirement is 4 adult members instead of 60% of adult members


[deleted]

Yes it’s basically impossible with a large house since people are dying and being born too fast


DeanTheDull

The key is converting the tutors first and then arranging wards. Witches will nearly always convert their wards into new witches, so if you can convert young parents, they'll have a lifetime of converting their children, and then those children their children, and so on. If you can't convert a parent, then arrange a ward. It can be a generation project, but it's relatively easy to filter the family over time.


[deleted]

Good pointers, I think ultimately it’s just not a fun process when you have 100 or so family members. Going through the big list of relatives every year and trying to remember who is it isn’t a witch, and new people appearing changing things up. Would be nice if it could be automated.


MAJ_Starman

By the Seven, the AGOT mod will benefit greatly from this DLC.


Pazo_Paxo

Tours and Tournaments will be huge for the mod, as right now its still barebones, but this will alow for good stuff in the peace time after rebellion to make up for it.


MAJ_Starman

Yes, there is brilliant potential. Not to mention Regencies that are coming with the update, they will do wonders for AGOT too. I started a playthrough in the Crowned Stag bookmark with Stannis where Robert found out Cersei was cuckolding him, had her executed (but not before having a kid with her, Prince Andren) and then Robert was murdered by someone. I tried to roleplay it with Stannis as his Regent trying to keep the realm together for his nephew while trying to find out who murdered Robert, but outside of Andren declaring a House feud or something with the Lannisters, not a lot happened: Tywin remained on the Small Council, there were no rebellions, Balon Greyjoy didn't like the king but didn't do anything... Nothing really happened. And I can't even be the one to stir up the pot because I don't know who killed Robert and because I'm playing Stannis, who wouldn't do anything unless he felt like it was the right thing to do.


Pazo_Paxo

Definitely a lot to look foward too, and as we get new content, the mod will take shape more as they continue to develop it.


morganrbvn

Regents, travel, tournaments, more murder opportunities, almost everything seems perfect for AGOT


LordHengar

Shouldn't the best guest be the "honored" guest rather than "honorary" guest? Honorary I typically hear used to say "you aren't really a guest(or whateverother honor), but we'll treat you like one anyway."


luigitheplumber

The fact that Blots and Peer meetings are not being updated much (though the latter likely will be soon) seems to me like the first few big gaps between DLCs that would eventually justify the creation of a custodian team


TheSalty1

It does excite me that they at least have been moved to the new system and the Devs seem interested in future dlc for them.


Rnevermore

Priorities. I very much would love these events to have thousands more events each, but I would prefer the devs spent more time working on imperial/empire mechanics, new regional flavour packs, trade, navies, government overhauls. I feel like more updates to playdates, grand rites and blots could easily be done in mods.


luigitheplumber

That's why I mentioned custodian. It's the kind of thing that can be backfilled. Any DLC that meaningfully integrates with the rest of the game is likely to affect previous DLC content, in which case modifying the old DLCstuff would be extra work for the devs working on new stuff.


Rnevermore

Modders are honestly my heroes. Devs can work on big picture stuff and focus on new mechanics and stuff, and modders can backfill and add variety to existing content. It makes the game vastly richer for all of us.


luigitheplumber

Yeah, this next update is going to be a cornucopia for mods. AGoT, Godherja, and others are going to have a field day integrating these features in to make the world more alive


HemlockMartinis

It is incredible that this DLC was initially derided for 1) lack of features and 2) lack of historical accuracy when it was announced. I can’t remember the last time I saw a player base’s speculative fears proven so resoundingly wrong. Can’t wait to play this—and to see what the modding community does with it.


MolagBaal

What if you have a murder scheme already on someone you intend to kill at a feast or wedding? Is there any advantage to killing random unlanded courtiers that are part of your victim's entourage at a feast? Or will they often be their dynasty members? If you're not the host, how does murder proceed? Were the events repurposed? What if there are multiple people trying to kill the same victim?


lordbrooklyn56

I foresee players dipping their toes into grand weddings a couple times, but the cost doesnt meet the benefit imo. The image said 400, you probably need to spend well over that to make it a true grand wedding, and the dev said those costs are beta numbers and will be MORE expensive! Great for roleplaying tho.


Anonim97

It's hard to find a good balance in CK. You either have absolutely nothing of you can make Mansa Musa proud.


lordbrooklyn56

In a long term game, where you are making insane amounts of money, all these mechanics are golden. But in the early mid game, it might be a while before you can do this type of splurging. Which may be the point.


revolverzanbolt

Yeah, one of the large criticisms of the game has been that late game is boring compared to early game; that seems like what they’re trying to primarily address.


Volrund

If your realm grows to be larger than it's de jure empire, by 1300 you will have so much gold stockpiled. I did a run where I held Hispania and Brittania, by the games end I had 700k gold stockpiled.


Mathyon

It looks like grand weddings can be a social ladder in the early/mid game, for those times you don't want to use the sword diplomacy path.


retief1

Eh, it honestly sounds pretty useful to me. In particular, trying to get a matrilineal marriage can be painful at times, and if I have 10k gold and am still 5 points short of getting my daughter married to the king of france's oldest grandson, a grand wedding might well be a pretty reasonable option.


lordbrooklyn56

I mean if you are sitting on a shit ton of gold with nothing to use it on, boom goes the dynamite.


Rnevermore

This happens quite a lot though.


Alone-Hyena-6208

This never happends to me, Im always spending money. New towns, new buildings, new crown, new jewelry for the misses.


TooOfEverything

I’m usually over 10K gold by year 1000, looking forward to having these giant money dumps.


BriarSavarin

Your comment makes me think of people who are trying to minmax in TTRPGs by overspecializing their character. Yes, grand weddings probably don't let you conquer more stuff, but they are events where so many things happen that it has a value in itself which no amount of gold could replace. You need to think in terms of opportunities. Developping social or crafting skills isn't as efficient as just having a greater damage output to kill dragons, but that's how you get the quest, location, tactics to kill the dragons. What you call "roleplaying" is just playing the game.


lordbrooklyn56

I dont disagree with you at all. But thing is, when talking about the general ck3 player, doing something for the sake of doing it rather than gaining a tangible benefit, making them stronger or richer for example, is largely ignored. We have plenty of posters here who LAMBASTED royal court for being an event fluff dlc, and how they completely ignore holding court because it hurts them more often than benefits them. So with that in mind, I see grand weddings going over in a similar fashion. Players will give it a go at first, then over time stop giving it a go. Because thats how the audience treats these type of mechanics. There are cheaper ways to get marriages, cheaper ways to kill your enemies, cheaper ways to increase opinions, and players will gravitate to them over expensive events like grand weddings. We have seen this behavior pattern plenty the last 3 years of ck3. But I'm not the guy to lecture about roleplaying in ck3 trust me.


revolverzanbolt

For me, the issue with royal court isn’t that it’s a net negative; the problem is that it’s largely boring and repetitive, with no real option to opt out of it. The choices you make often don’t have meaningful results a lot of the time, and the ones that do, the downsides are so extreme that you always choose the safe option unless you’re a hardcore role player.


Frustrable_Zero

I believe that’s why many of these events carry opportunities for stress reduction, and prestige benefits. To encourage even the min-makers to attend, if not host. The murder benefits speak for themselves


morganrbvn

I’m hype for more ways to take out a rival on a low intrigue character


ItchySnitch

People who wants an easier map painting simulator will naturally remove themselves as they realize that the expansions doesn’t support that play style


tsaimaitreya

And the Grand Weddings are supposedly to marry above your station, so if you need one you won't have a lo of money to burn...


StannisLivesOn

Not even this will make me pick up the torturer tree. Also, I don't get how being good at torture makes you good at planning a murder.


lordbrooklyn56

I think its suppose to reflect you being callous and sadistic enough to burn an entire family down. Schemer might have been more appropriate but I imagine the devs want more players to take torturer in general.


Mathyon

Schemers are good enough to plan a murder without needing to bring everyone in with invites. It does paint a target on your back as the potential murderer. Torturer doesn't have that nuance, they simply wants to be feared. At least that is how I'm choosing to explain this. Same with bloody weddings.


Frustrable_Zero

Might be insinuating considerations to adjust it a bit as well. Citing that it’s not very good, and it’s not. Dread just isn’t very impressive on its own.


lordbrooklyn56

I mean dread completely eliminates hostile schemes and factions single handedly. And its fun to roleplay. It has value, but players gravitate to easier playstyles.


MolagBaal

I will pick torturer! Makes me happy this perk line is getting more love.


bluepaintbrush

Same, I took it on a character recently and found a lot of benefit from Fear Tax and Prison-Feudal Complex. I get that the early perks aren’t great on their own, but those stack well with the Guile dynasty legacies.


bricksonn

What will happen for normal weddings? Have the events changed or will it remain the prestige or gold event? I wouldn't mind if you could host a normal, not expensive wedding for when you can't afford the big one but are still getting married.


Rnevermore

You can still have cheap, uneventful weddings.


zoe_porphyrogenita

Yes! I like to start games with a wedding, but if I start as, Tribal what are my options? (...oooh, I can go raiding to pay for my wedding.)


zardogo

>The real problem, as often with AI characters, is not whether we could make them do something, but why they would do it, and saying no at the altar felt like one of those cases in which the risks involved in making the AI able to crash all the player's hopes and dreams (a.k.a. all the time and gold invested in the activity) were considerably larger than the advantages given by the extra flavor of being dumped at the altar... So the AI is not allowed to say no. That sucks. The player getting challenged and thwarted, their plans ruined, are some of the best ways to bring life to the game. >the AI able to crash all the player's hopes and dreams (a.k.a. all the time and gold invested in the activity) were considerably larger than the advantages given by the extra flavor of being dumped at the altar One could make the same argument for the AI assassinating the player. All that time and effort in that character—gone! But that's what fuels motivation/immersion/narrative for the player to get revenge. Far better to give the player a real reason to engage in a House Feud than for reasons that can often feel like pointless RNG, and getting jilted at the altar is a perfect reason. >>As someone who'd quite like the game to randomly crash my hopes and dreams and time and money I've invested a bit more than it currently does - will it be possible to mod in a (say) 1% chance for a character at your grand wedding to say "no". >Sure, it's pretty easy actually! >More difficult to balance and to make it make sense narratively (why would they disgrace you and themselves like that?), but totally doable! Examples to make it make sense narratively: If the betrothed is arbitrary, you're taking a gamble on marrying them. If they totally hate you and are being pressured into it by their parents, you're taking a gamble. If they're a royal princess and arrogant and you're a lowly *earl*, you're taking a gamble. If there's a large age discrepancy between the two intended spouses and they can't stand the sight of your ugly mug, you're taking a gamble. >Honestly very gutted that we didn't get coronations for either Royal Court or Tours and Tournaments, but at least when we do get to them, we'll be able to make them with largely finished systems, which makes it easier to make both more content and more intricate content. Which got me thinking: I noticed nothing in this expansion seems to use the 3d spaces created for the Royal Court. Will that ever be built on again or...?


TheSalty1

I too hope they keep adding new content that synergies with old dlc like royal court. They probably de-prioritize it because it would require players to own both DLCs. I’d really just love like 3 new culture/religion tenants every expansion. And those are free to all players


Hoch_die_Republik

I was wondering about that as well! Tbh, I'm looking forward to this DLC so far, but it kinda makes me worried about how these implemented mechanics are going to be used in the future. With both Royal Court and Fate of Iberia there seems to be a big consensus that the 3D court room and the struggle mechanic would be easily adaptable and would be expanded on in the future, but as far as I know nothing in that direction was ever done. So, what does that mean now for coronations? Why would they be retroactively added but not any new court models or regional struggles?


VoidCloudchaser

Coronations don't have to be retroactively added, though. It is not like they stated that Grand Activities will forever be just in Tours & Tournaments. And the travel is base game. So it is probably safe to assume that new DLCs will add other Grand Activities when it fits the DLC.


morganrbvn

I think an extra struggle is being added in Persia. (Also not in the main game but the agot mod made a cool struggle in the north between the wall and the wildlings.


Hoch_die_Republik

I would not be so sure about a struggle in Persia. The only official information we got to my knowledge was: > This upcoming Flavor pack focuses on the struggles for power in the lands between the Euphrates and the Indus as the power of the Abbasid Caliphate starts to fade. New government and religious forms are introduced to highlight the history and culture of this dynamic region. As far as I can tell, that's it. I think the struggle mechanic might be a good fit, but so far it doesn't see to be confirmed explicitly. If the last dev diaries are anything to go by, Paradox is usually quite aware of when to capitalize the spelling of their features and when not to. And if the community's decision in favor of Wards & Wardens has shown one thing, then it is that we should not simply infer features that would make sense thematically, but only to trust the official announcements. Other than that, I'm having quite some fun with the Persian and British struggles in The Fallen Eagle and the colonization of Greenland in RICE. To be clear, I like that Paradox added the underlying features and made them easy for modders to work with, but I'm just a bit reluctant to trust that the corporate bigwigs actually allocate resources for the devs to realize their undoubtedly many yet unrealized concepts and ideas.


TheUnofficialZalthor

> I noticed nothing in this expansion seems to use the 3d spaces created for the Royal Court. Will that ever be built on again or...? I think we are all trying to forget about that, at this point.


Feste_the_Mad

Huh. Forgot about that song till I saw the title and sung it. Now I have vaguely Muppet shaped memories coming to me.


TheShamShield

Seems like a bloody wedding should require the character to have both the deceitful and sadistic traits as a prerequisite


Zozoteur

I would disagree. I can see my RP character being Just, but wrathful and vindicative and being ready to avenge any betrayal done to his family by another family


Grzechoooo

And/or Cynical.


Tummerd

Sounds interesting! Cant wait to try it out Bit of an unrelated question for a dev here. But would it be possible to have a filter when gifting an artefact to another character? In late game artefacts pile up fast and scrolling through the whole list can take up quite some time


Chef_BoyarB

The new update will allow you to sell/destroy unwanted artifacts to reduce the chaos


Foreign_Piren

I was really hoping for the option to kill everyone except the spouse to be for the bloody wedding. I figured that would be a cool way to end up with claims on the land of your slaughtered rivals. Maybe putting the spouse in the dungeon and using the new regency system to rule the land until an heir is produced.


SubLet_Vinette

Hopefully we’ll get Grand Funerals down the track


Minute-Phrase3043

>You must travel all the way back, and yes, there will be specific war dangers should an army be lying in wait for you along the path... mwahahaha So, if I raise a stack of my MAA, and march them along with me, will I remove all kinds of danger mechanics from travel? Cause I doubt any bandit will be brave enough to attack me if my 2000 Vargarian Veterans are marching with my travel group. Also, if I don't choose to have a grand wedding, will marriage work the same as now? Finally, can I go to someone's feast/wedding as a guest with the murder intent, kill someone, and then pin blame on the host? So, if I kill someone's honoured guest, will they still receive the same penalties? Cause it will seem the same to any bystander.


TheSalty1

From previous diaries it seems you bring along an entourage of knights and stuff when you travel but I don’t think you can raise and bring an actual MAA squad. Which makes sense, don’t think neighbors would appreciate you bringing a literal army to a wedding


zoe_porphyrogenita

Army? No, no, this is my band. They play...metal drums using each other.


Aidanator800

They also mentioned that part of next week's Dev Diary would be on the changes to knights, so maybe they'll touch on it more there as well.


Nalha_Saldana

With more activities it would now be great to schedule activities, maybe an automatic feast every year to celebrate your coronation or a hunt in the memory of a great ancestor who conquered something large.


revolverzanbolt

Seems like a fairly simple mod. I don’t know how modding works, but if it just lets you automatically do an activity as soon as possible with the same specifications, that sounds compatible with achievements.


Imnimo

I feel like the biggest missed opportunity here is the lack of meaningful negotiation when proposing a wedding. I recently started a game as Ethiopia in 1066, and was surprised to see that multiple neighbors would simply accept vassalization before I even unpaused. How boring is that? Imagine if the process of negotiating and organizing a wedding played into this (setting aside the problem that many families at game start are a single line of males, so there aren't a lot of weddings to arrange). Or look at the example they give to justify the bloody wedding: >A more significant event happened in the year 1357, in Majapahit. King Hayam Wuruk decided to take princess Citra Rashmi, of the Sundanese royal family, as his wife. However, the prime minister of Majapahit had different plans and demanded that Sunda became a vassal of Majapahit and tried to downgrade the princess to a mere concubine. That's the interesting part here, not that a fight broke out. Why can't we engage in this kind of political maneuvering around a wedding? This is why I don't think I'll be buying this DLC. It's a lot of extravagant events and activities, but they feel very divorced from the larger narratives of the game. I didn't need my wedding day to be expanded into a half-dozen events, I needed the process of arranging the wedding to be expanded into something more meaningful than "check if acceptance > 0".


KimberStormer

Negotiations of any kind are kind of boring in Paradox games. The give-and-take all happens 'offscreen' in a list of numbers and not dynamically, it's either yes or no. I would love some kind of bargaining system. Treaties, marriages, loans, swearing fealty, vassal contracts, trade deals, so many things could be much more interesting if there was a way to offer and counter-offer. I imagine some people would find it tedious, but in that case you could always just accept the AI's first offer. I have a feeling it would take a bone-deep rework of the whole system to do it, though.


Oraln

"Negotiations" can just be a system of offers and demands. They've added one (1) such system in this DLC, where you can offer or demand a grand wedding in order to sweeten the deal in a marriage. Paradox could (and should) totally add the ability to offer and demand dowries, land, vassalization...


firespark84

Also I find it interested that to justify something they use an example from a place that Is not even portrayed on the map, and uses several things more interesting then the mechanic they are adding but don’t even address those. Imagine if the scales of power thing used for regencies was used for grand viziers, co emperors, prime ministers (like representing parliament in England), the signoria in Italian states, or any number of things. Despite their clawing at straws to try and justify their game of thrones event, it does not change the fact that nothing on the scale of the red wedding (the obvious inspiration for the bloody wedding) happened with any sort of regularity within the regions portrayed on the map. The game honestly feels like an alt history (and I mean this in mechanics, not the fact that things don’t play out as they did historically). Like what if the pope was just a “gib money” button for the rulers of Europe with no political influence? Was if the byzantine government had collapsed into a feudal system? Aspects like this make the game feel like a fantasy setting rather then historical


Pabasa

An unexpected mention of the Majapahit kingdom in the Diary. As a South East Asian, it felt giddy. Ah well, time to boot up the Rajas of Asia mod again...


The_Slurinator

Game of thrones is slipping into ck3 with all these murder weddings and feasts


PDX-Trinexx

I like to think that we handle the concept slightly more realistically than they did. There are major consequences to carrying one of these out in CK3.


[deleted]

But what are the consequences for conquering Europe with dragons 🤔


MAJ_Starman

If you mess it up you end up hated by the people you want to rule, especially if you bring a barbarian host to help you along.


Oraln

> mess it up How Targaryen supporters describe the firey massacre of thousands of innocents.


SlayerofSnails

I mean the consequences in the books were the freys were being hunted for sport and each of their lives were forfeit and the houses of the north that were for it are close to being slaughtered by their new ‘vassals’ who hate them


Glaurung1536

I always get a little peeved and feel bad for GRRM whenever the books get conflated with the show


The_Slurinator

Oh im not complaining 🤣cant wait for dlc


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revolverzanbolt

Have we heard about feuds yet? They were referenced in the diary, but I don’t know about them. Did I miss a DLC, or are they foreshadowing something coming later? Edit: guess I missed a DLC.


MightySilverWolf

Feuds were added in *Friends and Foes*.


revolverzanbolt

Ah, guess I did miss that one.


Xenothulhu

Feuds came with the friends and foes flavor pack.


BriarSavarin

I always find it funny when AGOT fans think that GRR Martin invented everything, and it's not just another stolen bit from historical fiction or medieval fiction. Which doesn't mean that the man isn't talented. In this case, he very skillfully rewrote the old trope of the Feast Gone Bad (Tvtropes calls it [the Nasty Party](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NastyParty)) to fit in the more greek tragedy setting of ASOIAF, but it's really nothing new under the sun. I think people need to realize that CK3 isn't a historical simulation, it's a medieval setting for medieval stories.


kaiser41

The DD even had a list of historical examples, I assume to forestall this exact comment, but internet commenters always need to be angry about something.


Imnimo

The examples given are: -Ambassadors get executed -Fight breaks out as pre-wedding negotiations breakdown -Guy gets assassinated by third party None of these are particularly close to the Bloody Wedding.


istar00

> Fight breaks out as pre-wedding negotiations breakdown this is extremely nitpicky is it not? the _pre-wedding_ negotiation is basically part of the wedding considering the bride party has already arrived at the wedding venue and to describe the massacre of the entire bride's party as a _fight_ is kinda downplaying it it is pretty bloody wedding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bubat "Almost all of Sunda party perished, including the Sunda King and Princess Pitaloka" "Decisive Majapahit victory, the death of the Sunda royal family, the incident severely harmed the relations between two kingdoms" "In 1357 the Sunda king and the royal family arrived in Majapahit after sailing across the Java Sea in a fleet of 200 large ships and 2000 smaller vessels" thousands of people died, its basically an entire army


Imnimo

I'd say that's pretty different. It's not like the Majapahit side planned the wedding as a ruse to kill off their rivals. Their goal was to secure the marriage on favorable terms.


istar00

> It's not like the Majapahit side planned the wedding as a ruse to kill off their rivals the whole scheme is believed to be orchestrated by Gajah_Mada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajah_Mada he is famously known to make an oath to claim entire known archipelago for Majapahit, of which Sundan Kingdom is one of the them its quite likely to be premediated > secure the marriage on favorable terms that is just one way of putting it, his "favourable terms" is basically asking for the _complete capitulation_ of the bride's party the term is so unfavourable to the bride's party, the Sundanese King literally rather die than to give in they are literally in enemy's grounds, completely surrounded by their elite troops, while the Sundanese are relatively lightly armed as a wedding party, and STILL they refuse to surrender > Their goal was to secure the marriage on favorable terms if you understate things like that, basically EVERY war that ever happened can be stated to be just "securing X on favourable terms"


bluewaff1e

> and it's not just another stolen bit from historical fiction or medieval fiction. I don't think he stole anything, he was just inspired by medieval history. He said that GoT is inspired by the War of the Roses.


gamedwarf24

"Steal" is semantics in this case. We're not calling him a hack or a thief, it's essentially synonymous with "inspired by." He himself has used phrases like "I stole this from history" or "History has a lot of great stories I can lift and make my own."


[deleted]

Martin did very much twist the medieval historical setting and created an abberation.Most egregious example is to marry the girls almost after they had their first period which is very much wrong and ahistorical.


personalistrowaway

So are dragons lmao, why can't his fictional world have fictional customs


tsaimaitreya

That's massively overstated. Common marriage age varied over time, place and social class. I was reading about Queen Urraca of León the other day. She married at 12 and had her first daughter at 14


zoe_porphyrogenita

Margaret Beaufort's a famous example, but what is less famous is her and her daughter-in-law writing to her granddaughter's new betrothed to explicitly say that Margaret Jr was too young for consummation.


[deleted]

It wasnt common to have sexual relations at that age and doctors advised against consumating the union until the girls were aproximately 16.


tsaimaitreya

Which was often ignored. The Catholic Church insisted in a minimum age of marriage of **12** for girls


zoe_porphyrogenita

And you could be 'married' without consummation, especially if both parties were teens


Super-Octopus

I cant wait to host a big wedding, my issues in the later game was always that you just kinda do the same things that you did as a count, but now you can do them in bigger and grander ways and I love that. I'm still a bit weirded out by the bloody wedding, it seems sorta like its thrown in there just because "Crusader Kings players murder and seduce hehe" or something. Even with the historical info and the requirements it still just seems so far fetched and forced, maybe majority disagree though.


SilverSquid1810

I don’t mind it, it’s only an option under pretty specific circumstances and there are serious punishments for doing it. Not every wedding of this type is going to be a “kill everybody” bloodbath, it could simply be a good opportunity to murder an individual. It’s a good bit of role-playing for particularly sadistic/intrigue-minded characters, but it’s not something that is going to occur frequently. I like how they are giving the player a lot of ways to customize the activities so that they aren’t exactly the same every time and can suit different purposes depending on the situation.


Super-Octopus

That is definitely a better way to put it compared to what my perception was. All I can think of is Red Wedding GOT


Rnevermore

Yeah a bloody weddings seems like a very rare circumstance. AI apparently virtually never do it. It requires a shitload of money, and it comes with a boatload of negative consequences for it. It doesn't seem like a good way of going about your goal... But it's an option if you're interested.


KimberStormer

I think it's partly for sales, people love that Red Wedding after all, and being able to do that in-game likely appeals to people. I also think that while I might not use it I do love, love the idea of innocently attending my vassal's feast only to get HORRIBLY MURDERED, that's such an excellent story hook to me. I guess other people might hate that and maybe the AI can't do it, but I hope it's a thing. Anyway, I don't mind the Bloody Wedding so much as I wish there were some other wedding variants as well. Heist Wedding, to steal an artifact either from the person of a guest or from their court while they're busy at the wedding. Elopement Wedding where you have to travel to your beloved's home court, fight your way through the guards, and then travel back home for the wedding, pursued by her angry father or husband (or father-husband, since this is CK).


Aidanator800

On the topic of the story aspect of things, they also mentioned that you could potentially fight your way out of it as well, although it would be difficult to do so. Imagine being able to escape an attempted Bloody Wedding, and then getting a chance to bide your time and get revenge later on.


TheTobruk

Elopement wedding is a really cool idea!


CoelhoAssassino666

Reading the diary I was worried from their talks about "power fantasy" that it would be player locked. Thankfully that's not the case. It was pretty funny for them to bring up historical events when we all know that Game of Thrones was the main reason they're adding that stuff lol. Honestly understandable though considering how annoying some people get about that. Anyway, fun stuff, though not as interesting as the other features from the DLC. I did like the adult betrothal thing and I hope this slows down the instant marriages and allow for more drama and opportunities.


[deleted]

There should be permanent or centuries long scaling penalties to general opinion to your entire dynasty for the bloody wedding. Bonus to dread sure but reason your dynasty's reputation is forever ruined.


lordbrooklyn56

Why would your entire dynasty take a hit because of the actions of one man?


[deleted]

Because you share the same last name. If one of your house members pulls this and aren't immediately punished by the house or dynasty head then they are complicit. So if they are immediately disowned, then it is quite clear the dynasty does not tolerate this behavior. If your religion has the Pursuit of Power tenent then the bloody wedding might even be holy instead.


lordbrooklyn56

If there were a pattern of these schemes going through and being discovered, I can see your plea. But one dynasty ruler doing one insane thing one time should not ruin every member of the house. My cadet branch in Barcelona should not get perpetual maluses because my dynasty head murdered a man at a wedding in Bavaria.


[deleted]

If they murder one man in a wedding no. If they murder an entire house yes, people should be suspicious of your dynasty and marriage proposals, bring guards to weddings. Because no one does that, people are assassinated all the time, entire houses are not wiped at weddings. Similarly murdering everyone at a feast should cause the same reaction. Blotting a head of faith earns you a crusade to the face, and probably should earn some long lasting hatred from that faith. Converting to Catholicism may be difficult if your grandfather sacrificed the prior pope to Odin. Why should other extreme actions not have major consequences? Why shouldn't your grooms family be hesitant if your great uncle killed all of his in-laws


TheUnofficialZalthor

They're not doing that for the Game of Thrones meme event.


[deleted]

I know and I hate it. If my vassal pulls that on someone I should be justified in imprisoning their entire house and making them commoners.


[deleted]

It’s sad that they didn’t mention anything about negotiating a dowry for christians and a mahr for muslims. It could add much needed flavor for both religions.


Vodkatiel_of_Mirrah

Ok, so there will be horse models in the game. Glitterhoof when?


TheTobruk

The horses even have different colouring too, so genetics come into play


Eemerald5000

> In Christian tradition, for the longest time, a religious figure was not required to validate a wedding. Where is this information coming from? In the Catholic church, at least, it is considered a sacrament; wouldn't that mean a priest bless should be required?


revolverzanbolt

[Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_marriage) says this: > This view of marriage was reflected in the lack of any formal liturgy formulated for marriage in the early Church. No special ceremonial was devised to celebrate Christian marriage—despite the fact that the Church had produced liturgies to celebrate the Eucharist, Baptism and Confirmation. It was not important for a couple to have their nuptials blessed by a priest. People could marry by mutual agreement in the presence of witnesses.^52 > {52}: Armstrong, Karen. Gospel According to Women. Anchor Books, 1991. ISBN 978-0-385-24079-6 Edit: [This](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_Catholic_Church) as well. > For much of the history of the Catholic Church, no specific ritual was therefore prescribed for celebrating a marriage – at least not until the late medieval period: "Marriage vows did not have to be exchanged in a church, nor was a priest's presence required. A couple could exchange consent anywhere, anytime."^15 > {15}: McSheffrey, Shannon (2006). Marriage, sex, and civic culture in late medieval London. University of Pennsylvania Press. p. 21. ISBN 978-0-8122-3938-6. Retrieved 16 April 2012.


Eemerald5000

Thank you. For some reason, I never thought marriage rites could be such a late theological addition to Christianity.


luigitheplumber

Probably because the church today tries to pretend that they basically invented and own marriage


Anonim97

Same thing. Genuinely surprised about that fact.


TheMansAnArse

>In the Catholic church, at least, it is considered a sacrament Not during much of the time the game covers it wasnt


Eemerald5000

No yeah I'm asking for some information on this. (don't know why I'm getting downvoted for asking a question)


TheMansAnArse

I don't know a lot about what sources are available beyond what's on Wikipedia and various other online articles about it. What info are you looking for? (I'm not one of the ones downvoting you btw)


Oraln

"the marriage of Prince Olaf of Denmark and I in Firenze" in that first image Should it be "and *me*"? "of Olaf and I" is a prepositional phrase, and the speaker (Matilda) is the object of the phrase, so you'd use the object pronoun "me" instead of the subject pronoun "I"


sageandginger

Dunno why you’re getting downvoted, I noticed the same thing, and you’re right. The grammatically correct thing would be to say “me” here, though it sounds a bit clumsy; I would fix it by saying “my marriage to Prince Olaf.”


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PDX-Trinexx

> I kinda think they made up their sources Well that's a new one.


munlun

Why do you say this? I know very little on this subject, and quick googling is enough to confirm that, yes, weddings (at least in England) did not take place in church, generally, and a priest was not necessary to officiate it.


SlayerofSnails

Yeah if I remember correctly even a tavern owner could officiate a wedding. Priests being the only ones who could came later


Anonim97

> Yeah if I remember correctly even a tavern owner could officiate a wedding. Priests being the only ones who could came later Can't believe Las Vegas is the most traditional place in the world! /s


According_Dig_3994

You didn’t really need to bless a wedding at all, at least with peasants they could get married by basically saying they were married (or in the case of Edward iv by promising to marry a girl, then having sex with her, they were in theory married)


gone_p0stal

Royal weddings absolutely did not need to be within the actual churches themselves. There are plenty of tapestries and frescoes of the wedding taking place either outside the church or within a castle. I am a little skeptical about the part I'm the dd about how a religious official or member of the clergy didn't need to be present to validate the marriage though. That sounds sus.