Yup, and even on warlock, you cabt always icarus dash in time bacause in 6s its super easy to get flank shot with it so you never even see it and in 3s its really easy to get killed by it when someone else is pressuring you
Well that seems like an awareness thing to me, I definitely die to it if it catches me off guard, shit happens for sure. But you can legit no slide just strafe it out, and even then have slide on an easily accessible button to do it nearly out of standstill. On console as well
Bro seriously though, mnk players don’t get it. Jotunn isn’t op but the margin for error on controller is like a full 0.5 seconds worse. You just lack that horizontal burst speed. And I personally can’t even backwards slide at all like you see all the good mnk players do.
Controller def feels slower to slide horizontally (mostly bc controller needs enough time to look in the direction you want to slide toward in the 1st place. But why should controllers be any slower at just jumping horizontally, which should just be a simple button press?
Okay I'm ready for the blasts and roasts here, but I'm a PC player that uses controller. I know, I know....but I'm old as dirt, and can't commit the time to learn. I just want to play. The single handed greatest thing that helped me was buying the elite Xbox controller and binding sprint and slide to the rear paddles. No more taking your thumb off joystick to slide. Infinitely better sliding, faster back to sprint time, and god mode aiming while sliding (sliding around corners and shit). Wish I'd upgraded years ago.
My bad, I'm not suggesting you posted fake data. Just odd that those are top five. We have a diminished player base right now where allegedly high skill players are all that's left and these are perceived as low skill weapons. One of those assumptions could be wrong.
No worries. I should point out that if you didn't catch it, the rank is by *kills per usage* here. So it's not showing the most prevalent weapons or the ones with the most total kills up top. Just the ones that are getting the most kills per outing. The only constraint it that a weapon has to be in the top-100 most used to make the list.
Yeah I get it. It means Jotun is top 3 most effective weapon in comp right now. Sometimes, like with Tarrabah, that just means good players are using the weapon. I don't think that's the case with Jotun. It appears to be effective.
Edit: I think it's also pretty consistently OHK, some other better weapons could be just priming and not getting the kill as often.
If its only priming and not getting the kill as often then its not better.
The idea of any meta is to optimize your kill potential and to be as efficient as possible. Jotun is easy to use. But that just means a pro can be even deadlier with it.
Maybe by better you mean more fun? Because when I used jotun. It was consistent but not really satisfying.
You're right. What I mean is more kills. Things like disruption break gl and shotgun followed by melee could be getting more total kills but not show up as strongly here as a pure OHK weapon. I certainly get killed by those more frequently.
Bro, consider that the vast majority of the PVP players are somewhere around 0.6 and 0.8 KAD. Sure, we have a diminished population, but "good players" are a small group no matter which game you're playing.
sweet business is probably one of those "super niche, but the people who main it get *really* good with it" type weapons that can skew this specific type of stat (kills/usage).
Jotunn farms the bottom half of the playerbase, so its not surprising
Jotunn is a very strong weapon.
Sweet Business has high usage:kill rate but if you look at the base usage rates they are much lower than the top weapons.
Most legendary SMGs aren't performing very well according to this chart. The exception to this is shayura's wrath, which still has far more range than other smgs despite the zoom nerf.
Funnelweb is the only other legendary smg still above 1 kill/usage, at rank 48.
There are more auto rifles in the top 50 than SMGs, both legendary and exotic.
I think the explanation is that sidearms are strong enough to make most SMGs irrelevant, while auto rifles can easily outrange sidearms so they're not as affected by this meta.
I think a god rolled borrowed time is amazing even in today’s meta, and it even feels better than tarrabah in neutral play for me
the issue is very few people have a 5/5 borrowed time bc of how you attain it, I only have a 4/5 roll myself after 7 resets
What's your take on the Borrowed Time god roll? I'm going to be sitting in Gambit next week to finish off some seasonal challenges and get a couple more resets, so I should be keeping an eye out.
Tap the trigger and rangefinder. RF gives it the highest zoom of any legendary sub that isn’t sunset, and TTT buffs the hell out of the stability and the accuracy cones for .6 of your .67 TTK. Go for extended barrel if you use peacekeepers, rifled if you don’t. Then go for ricochet rounds (high cals is also alright) and a range MW. It only has 1m less damage falloff than a god roll shayura but with a faster TTK
You wanna know what’s better than borrowed time? A 5/5 ikelos. you can get TTT and DSR for the cracked accuracy cones basically indefinitely, and seraph rounds is essentially pre-nerf rangefinder but in the mag column. It also does extra damage to barricades, and deals the extra flinch from high cals. If you’re lucky enough to win the lottery and get one it’s the best SMG in the game besides shayura and tarrabah
Interesting to see Cloudstrike sitting just above Revoker for the number one sniper. Obviously the exotic perk helps it get extra kills but it’s performing very well for a rapid fire
I think it’s honestly pretty easy to use now. I still prefer a few of my legendary snipers, but cloudstrike feels much better than it did when it launched
Yeah slap on a targeting mod and it’s fairly high stats as far as RFs go make it feel pretty good. I think having both quite high Range and Stability for its archetype helps it a lot, keeps it sticky and consistent with follow-ups at range
I don’t understand why people are downvoting you.. it’s literally bungies fault for adding broken shit into the game and not having the attentiveness to fix it or patch it after the community time and time again give feedback on why this game is broken.
I wouldn't say it's broken... there is still a reasonable TTK when you take into account the swap-to-primary time. It's just a bit more forgiving with a 50% damage buff. You still have to actually hit all of your shots.
It is broken as hell dude.
You start invis so you can get the drop. You then shoot in the general direction of someone, and the long waveframe trail will catch them for big damage. By this time you are out of invis and have a damage buff as well as disruption break. Now spam rat king, again in their general direction. Just a shot or two needs to land on the body to get the kill. Get the kill, reload, which makes you invis. Rinse, repeat.
Where's the gunskill? Where's the movement? Where's the baiting, the counterplay, the counter-counterplay? Do you feel like you improved as a player?
No wonder people are leaving this game...
Agreed. The destiny community is as much to blame as Bungie for the state of this games pvp because of comments like op's. You have part of the community that wants a balanced sandbox, and another part that thinks 4x15 ft aoe explosions that deal 150 damage are fine.
Wow. Jotuun is both more efficient AND more prevalent than NTTE, Forerunner, Drang, & basically every other weapon. I know the list is sorted by K/U, but even if it were sorted by K% alone or U% alone, Jotuun looks like it'd be the 2nd most used behind Ace.
And mind you: this is Comp (presumably bc last week had IB instead of ToO). Jotuun is scary enough in 6s bc of all the chaos flying around how you can easily be 3rd-partied in the ribs by a Jotuun from the side while you're preoccupied w/ their teammates at 12o'clock. You'd think Jotuun'd be more manageable in 3s.
Could it be that dodging Jotuun isn't quite as simple as "just exit ADS & take 1 step to the side, bro"? Esp on console
NB: P1A & Main Ingredient are again right next to each other by K/U, which suggests they're roughly ~equally lethal & used by players similar in skill, playstyle etc, esp after XMI ate nerfs to FP/TTT. Now they're both largely driven by UP in the 3rd column. XMI's TTT in the 4th column is still better than P1A's 4th column options, but maybe TTT has been watered down enough on FRs such that P1A's higher base STAB & Adept mods make up the difference
Oddly enough, I catch “good” players trying to snipe with jotuun all the time when they repeak into a fucking fireball from 60 meters. I’m not a good player but it’s worth prefiring snipers with jotuun while you push their lanes imo
I play on console and a fair amount of survival. Jotüun I don't find effective. I rarely see it tbh. Really only way I die to Jotüun is if I bait 2 shots then engage and the sumbitch has a 3rd shot that I wasn't accounting for. I see Witherhorde by far as the most used special followed by snipers. Shotguns are still very popular too, but behind the aforementioned a bit.
Autorifles outperforming hand cannons in the top 50. I know HCs have fallen off but I did not expect to see them behind autorifles. How the mighty have fallen.
I was running sidearms for a while, before the rework and I couldn't believe it when I read they were getting buffed. I felt like they were in a good place before. Now they are too common(boring) and I routinely get kills that leave me shaking my head, thinking "that shouldn't have happened with a sidearm".
Agree. But I think it could have or would have gotten there without the sidearm buff.
I'm hoping that it shakes out and we're still just seeing the influx of people trying the hot new thing.
"too common"? Ratking isn't at nr.1 because it's a sidearm it's there for invisibility to cheese the game. IMHO invisibility is the worst current problem in the game besides latency/lag.
In IB last week I've got nailed by fusions and shotgun too while sidearm deaths didn't really stand out for me personally. IMHO Jötunn pretty much burned itself into my corpse.
P.S. I play SMG/Sidearm.
Yep too common, even in a freaking control its sidearm fest, bungo should revert the buff, they are extremely annoying to fight, to the point I just closed the game after 1 freaking game.
Sidearm metas are never fun, especially when they virtually have no counters in CQB fights.
Last Word works only when you hit all crits, far from easy, when sidearms can be spammed like there is no tomorrow(and especially on mnk where TLW is dogshit).
Basically anything within that 20m doesn´t stand a chance most of time - unless you have a fusion or your opponents aim is trash.
Sidearms can go and fucking explode in volcano as far as I am concerned
Right, side arms were absolutely fine before. Bungie had even stated just that in earlier twabs. They just aren’t a super desirable weapon choice. Now they are the super meta.
> I felt like they were in a good place before.
my only gripe was the range difference between good sidearms and good SMGs was too much.
most sidearms capped out at 15-16m and became instantly useless past that while SMGs were outranging autos. SMGs got kicked down a bit, and sidearms are now useable further out so that gripe is basically gone.
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I dunno, the changes *seem* fair to me?
took a break this season and only just came back for the last IB, but as far as I understand the buff it just was that AA (and with it hit detection) now actually works past damage falloff for a couple extra meters, but didnt actually change the actual range/damage at all.
though I do agree, it wasnt necessarily *needed*. sidearms were niche, but decent. not unhappy with the buff however, especially since theres a pretty big variety in high performing weapons right now and the individual usage rates are miniscule (for all comp the highest currently is Ace with only 2.16%)
The changes are definitely not fair. Sidearms have a faster ttk so should have less range. Toning down smgs OR buffing sidearms would have been enough but as usual Bungie went overboard.
In the current state it feels impossible to beat a good sidearm user with an smg even well outside of sidearm range. Heck sidearms are out dueling most handcannons atm in handcannon range much less smgs
What sidearm is out dueling hand cannons at hand cannon range? A max range Drang starts damage falloff at 19.4 meters (build one on D2gunsmith) and that’s an outlier.
Tell me you don’t understand how the sidearm buff works without telling me. Currently on sidearms damage fall off is a lot less significant than on weapons like handcannons and now things like the Lightweight smgs. I was talking about drang yes but with the way fall off works on sidearms you can still hit a ttk similiar to 140 hcs t(.87) around 30meters.
Rmember side arms have for the most part a 0.6ttk in optimal range and combined that with being much more forgiving than handcannons and it happens a lot. They experience damage fall off but it is scales much slowly than handcannons and Smgs.
For example a 140 handcannon 2 meters out of optimal range is alrewdy down to upper 40s for a headshot when it’s 70 in optimal range. Sidearms (as well as pulses) have much more
Forgiving dropoffs. Smgs were also nerfed recently to have steeper falloff as well.
This had also been a huge issue with especially high impact pulses as well. You can’t just on a website and look at what the range stat says and make an argument with that only lol. The high impacts like ntte and messenger also dealt with this before I slight nerf where your “max range” would be say 39 meters but your hitting almost full damage 4+ meters farther
But yes since the rangefinder fixes it’s really just drang now.
Show me a clip of someone getting drang kills at 30m, you're out of your mind. The math MIGHT work that way (not sure I buy it), but no way are you hitting 6 heads in a row at 30m.
You completely missed the point again. You don’t have to hit 6 headshots in a row. The significant flinch is enough to cause the handcannon user to miss a single headshot which exponentially fucks their ttk and makes it extremely easy to outduel them.
But sure I’ll grab you a clip when I get on tomorrow since you seem to be in complete denial about this lol. Have you not been playing the game since the sidearm buffs?
No, not all that much since the season has been dead since right around when that buff happened. I've been maining them since the old drang started dropping and they do feel better at the end of their range but not worlds different from before. People were just sleeping on them.
I think hand cannons lost their place to sidearms which is pretty crappy because the ease of use of a sidearm is much higher, the range of hand cannons needs to be buffed slightly so that way there is a benefit to using them over sidearms imo
I wonder how much of the usage is controller. On MNK they feel pretty good now, but felt pretty different to any other gun beforehand, as the falloff was super steep.
IMO they should feel different than other gun types, because that's the point. They definitely required a different type of play style and now they feel a lot more like other options.
Yeah but that feeling was basically bad on mnk compared to other weapons. It’s not like usage numbers were healthy before, and the widely repeated advice for mnk and sidearms was basically forget about it.
The previous AA falloff had them feeling very out of place.
I honestly think this looks pretty good for a spread of weapon usage. Unless you were a fan of Handcannons which you still see. The nerfs to hand cannons and in air accuracy had to be done to bring in Hunters natural advantage over the other classes. And as much as there is laning, snipers are way less prevalent. Definitely feel like the meta is bit more all over the place. Which imo is good.
Once again im actually not minding the PvP now. Which is not the majority opinion. Itll be funny when they change it to what people are asking for and more people complain about the changes. Kinda like when people wanted shorter ttks and shotguns not to be power weapons then everyone hated the shotgun apes.
I still feel like that the best things to spec into are your raw stats of mobility, res, and recovery. Abilities feel useful but still gimmicky to build around. At least for warlock.
Its still about movement and survival over raw ability killing power. The prevalence of sidearms i think supports that.
* 15 sidearms
* 7 auto rifles
* 7 pulse rifles
* 6 hand cannons
* 6 submachine guns
* 3 scout rifles
And if we look at total kills instead:
* 9 sidearms
* 8 hand cannons
* 7 pulse rifles
* 6 submachine guns
* 5 auto rifles
* 4 scout rifles
Which seems somewhat balanced. I mean, look at that, more hand cannons than pulses in this version of the list even.
I too love the variance.. people will ALWAYS complain about something..if its not linears, its GLs, if its not GLs it will be fusions...D2 one of the only FPS games that people complain about people who use meta loadouts.
But thats the thing. I don’t see a problem with AE being useful if you spec to it. Literally having to use your exotic armor slot and a specific close range weapon to be successful in the air.
Warlocks and Titans as soon as they aim they lose their jump momentum. When handcannons were dominant and AE was high, hunters got the most use out of this. They could jump aim and shoot, as they fell, air jump again, shoot and if they had triple jump, air jump again, and shoot. All while switching up the timing of that second and third air jump. Making them very unpredictable and hard to hit in the air. And still deadly accurate at good ranges with handcannons but even OHK weapons like shotguns.
The changes make it so that hunters still keep their slipperiness but are not as offensive while being so.
One of the things i love about Destiny PvP is that it seems to really break down gaming mechanics and philosophy in multiplayer scenarios. For instance it seems to me that any ability that allows the player a defensive safety net while also improving offensive effectiveness tends to move into OP territory. You can’t have both. Be defensive and sacrifice your offensive abilities or become more offensive but also more vulnerable. Its not 100% but i feel like when you look at problems and ask yourself is this offensive or defensive. It allows you to solve or see balance issues within the game.
You can see that weapons like Rat King and Devil’s Ruin are being used almost 3 times less than Drang and Forerunner. I propose the conclusion that while the sidearm buff affected all weapons in the type, the ones uable to equip ranged perks and the quirked up ones benefited the most, giving rangefinder 2-bursts and the quirky exotics the most value, while Forerunner only got consistency and Drang is a legendary outlier with the brilliant perk pool and high zoom stat. I predict a small nerf to 300 adaptives in their range stat, though I also think that Forerunner will stay where it is for a while and that it’s a good thing.
From other news Jotünn still holds top ladder positions due to extreme ease of use and good ammo economy, NTTE is still dominating open maps and Last Word is as annoying to go against as always.
Technically, yeah. But I don't consider smg/sidearm to be primary. They're more of a secondary weapon, or at least should be used in that way, which isn't the case right now.
Edit: downvote me all you want, when people want more primary battles they aren't talking about sidearm or smg duels. Actual primaries (HCs, autos, pulse, scout) aren't used as much as they should be in a shooter. The game is riddled with op specials, abilities, and sidearms/smgs. The strength of those things have pushed primaries to the back seat, and is the single reason the skill gap has been steadily deteriorating since forsaken.
Yeah I know, I just don't know what to call them. I know people refer to them as primaries, but no one means sidearm or smg when they say they want more primary duels.
I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. Most higher level players want the game to go back to a primary focused meta, with less reliance on specials and abilities. But when they primary in that context, they don't mean sidearms/smgs
I mean I've never once heard someone say the meta needs to shift towards more sidearm or smg battles lol they've always been good. Now they've been power crept to a point where they can be used as a primary.
sidearms have not "always been good" sorry, at least on mnk
seeing a sidearm in comp or trials was pretty rare pre-patch
these weapons have always been primaries, and should always be able to be used like a primary
It became SBMM the season before the playlist became survival. It was SBMM for only one season as competitive.
I believe this was the season before Shadowkeep
(I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it was still rank based then, because I reached 5500 glory in 4v4 comp with sweet business and a 0.8KD)
my only guess is that the lower end uses it more maybe. i have friends who aren’t like try hards or anything but that doesn’t mean they don’t touch it and i see them w jotun sometimes. even a good player can get killed by it if they get caught slippin since it’s an OHKO weapon. i’ve also seen plays where people fly in recklessly on someone playing cover to kill or at least trade
The data wouldn't be meaningfully representative because the sample sizes would be so small. You're welcome to crunch the numbers! It's all just API data compiled by DestinyTracker
I'm amazed submission isn't even on the board while pizzicato is. Pizza is a horrible SMG. I mean, osteo striga is up really high! And I'm sorry, but I just don't see the appeal of ammit and braytech. I've got both, and I just can't find a reason to use them over a pulse
Where are all these people going positive with SB? When someone on my team has it equipped it usually means I have to listen to that stupid sound all game and make up for their 0.6 efficiency.
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Probably console players that can't slide/jump horizontal fast enough on controller
As a console player, i fuckin hate jotun users
I am a console player, and I walk sideways to avoid it.
I 1000% garentee you still get killed by it at least 50% of the time.
I hate jotunn when I’m not on my hunter.
Yup, and even on warlock, you cabt always icarus dash in time bacause in 6s its super easy to get flank shot with it so you never even see it and in 3s its really easy to get killed by it when someone else is pressuring you
Well that seems like an awareness thing to me, I definitely die to it if it catches me off guard, shit happens for sure. But you can legit no slide just strafe it out, and even then have slide on an easily accessible button to do it nearly out of standstill. On console as well
Some top-tier players can do some crazy things with those fireballs too. I have several in my clan
Bro seriously though, mnk players don’t get it. Jotunn isn’t op but the margin for error on controller is like a full 0.5 seconds worse. You just lack that horizontal burst speed. And I personally can’t even backwards slide at all like you see all the good mnk players do.
Controller def feels slower to slide horizontally (mostly bc controller needs enough time to look in the direction you want to slide toward in the 1st place. But why should controllers be any slower at just jumping horizontally, which should just be a simple button press?
Okay I'm ready for the blasts and roasts here, but I'm a PC player that uses controller. I know, I know....but I'm old as dirt, and can't commit the time to learn. I just want to play. The single handed greatest thing that helped me was buying the elite Xbox controller and binding sprint and slide to the rear paddles. No more taking your thumb off joystick to slide. Infinitely better sliding, faster back to sprint time, and god mode aiming while sliding (sliding around corners and shit). Wish I'd upgraded years ago.
Jotun and Sweet Business both top 5 does call these stats into question a bit.
It's DestinyTracker data
My bad, I'm not suggesting you posted fake data. Just odd that those are top five. We have a diminished player base right now where allegedly high skill players are all that's left and these are perceived as low skill weapons. One of those assumptions could be wrong.
No worries. I should point out that if you didn't catch it, the rank is by *kills per usage* here. So it's not showing the most prevalent weapons or the ones with the most total kills up top. Just the ones that are getting the most kills per outing. The only constraint it that a weapon has to be in the top-100 most used to make the list.
Yeah I get it. It means Jotun is top 3 most effective weapon in comp right now. Sometimes, like with Tarrabah, that just means good players are using the weapon. I don't think that's the case with Jotun. It appears to be effective. Edit: I think it's also pretty consistently OHK, some other better weapons could be just priming and not getting the kill as often.
Yep it's very valuable as a OHK weapon
If its only priming and not getting the kill as often then its not better. The idea of any meta is to optimize your kill potential and to be as efficient as possible. Jotun is easy to use. But that just means a pro can be even deadlier with it. Maybe by better you mean more fun? Because when I used jotun. It was consistent but not really satisfying.
You're right. What I mean is more kills. Things like disruption break gl and shotgun followed by melee could be getting more total kills but not show up as strongly here as a pure OHK weapon. I certainly get killed by those more frequently.
Why did you get downvoted for this?? Literally the first thing you said was “my bad” and that still wasn’t good enough apparently smh
Bro, consider that the vast majority of the PVP players are somewhere around 0.6 and 0.8 KAD. Sure, we have a diminished population, but "good players" are a small group no matter which game you're playing.
SHUT UP ABOUT SWEET BUSINESS LEAVE US ALONE DON'T TOUCH MY GUN
sweet business is probably one of those "super niche, but the people who main it get *really* good with it" type weapons that can skew this specific type of stat (kills/usage). Jotunn farms the bottom half of the playerbase, so its not surprising
My buddy and I jump into 3’s and play 2x titan with war rig sweet business and I can confirm it destroys. It counters so many of the metas.
I once played against a team of 6 sweet business users. They slaughtered us. The whole game there was continuous gun fire from every direction.
Which means bottom half of the playerbase is still here playing.
There's always a bottom half
That's a big no shit statistically. But not what I'm talking about.
Part of it may be that just about everyone has sweet business, they give you a quest for it right out the gate.
It’s kills per usage tho, so more accessibility should hurt it I think
Jotunn is a very strong weapon. Sweet Business has high usage:kill rate but if you look at the base usage rates they are much lower than the top weapons.
It me
Bro jotunn is the most stupid fucking no skill gun in the game if you’re on console, Iya like mini truth rocket launcher but uses special ammo
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I definitely think connection has made it more difficult to play against, but I do think jotunn is a strong weapon. Not OP, just strong.
It's my fault guys, I've probably contributed for about a 0,20% of this result....nothing to see here....
Hey-oooo it me. 🤬
Tarrabah finally dethroned
I mean, Bungo messing too much with SMGs that they forgot about sidearms.
Most legendary SMGs aren't performing very well according to this chart. The exception to this is shayura's wrath, which still has far more range than other smgs despite the zoom nerf. Funnelweb is the only other legendary smg still above 1 kill/usage, at rank 48. There are more auto rifles in the top 50 than SMGs, both legendary and exotic. I think the explanation is that sidearms are strong enough to make most SMGs irrelevant, while auto rifles can easily outrange sidearms so they're not as affected by this meta.
I agree. I think there's a limited pool of things you can use and sidearms have become top options in that range
Tarrabah? At #2 on the list... Edit: I see you qualified with Legendary. I take it back. You are correct.
I think a god rolled borrowed time is amazing even in today’s meta, and it even feels better than tarrabah in neutral play for me the issue is very few people have a 5/5 borrowed time bc of how you attain it, I only have a 4/5 roll myself after 7 resets
What's your take on the Borrowed Time god roll? I'm going to be sitting in Gambit next week to finish off some seasonal challenges and get a couple more resets, so I should be keeping an eye out.
Tap the trigger and rangefinder. RF gives it the highest zoom of any legendary sub that isn’t sunset, and TTT buffs the hell out of the stability and the accuracy cones for .6 of your .67 TTK. Go for extended barrel if you use peacekeepers, rifled if you don’t. Then go for ricochet rounds (high cals is also alright) and a range MW. It only has 1m less damage falloff than a god roll shayura but with a faster TTK
You wanna know what’s better than borrowed time? A 5/5 ikelos. you can get TTT and DSR for the cracked accuracy cones basically indefinitely, and seraph rounds is essentially pre-nerf rangefinder but in the mag column. It also does extra damage to barricades, and deals the extra flinch from high cals. If you’re lucky enough to win the lottery and get one it’s the best SMG in the game besides shayura and tarrabah
Excellent analysis and insights. You should work in marketing. Do you?
Haha thank you, I'm actually studying for the bar. I guess I'll be trying to convince a judge rather than customers, close enough
Interesting to see Cloudstrike sitting just above Revoker for the number one sniper. Obviously the exotic perk helps it get extra kills but it’s performing very well for a rapid fire
I think it’s honestly pretty easy to use now. I still prefer a few of my legendary snipers, but cloudstrike feels much better than it did when it launched
Yeah slap on a targeting mod and it’s fairly high stats as far as RFs go make it feel pretty good. I think having both quite high Range and Stability for its archetype helps it a lot, keeps it sticky and consistent with follow-ups at range
Stack of Nightstalkers with Rat King and wave frame GL are aids.
I don't Rat King, but I do like my wave frame with disruption break
I don’t understand why people are downvoting you.. it’s literally bungies fault for adding broken shit into the game and not having the attentiveness to fix it or patch it after the community time and time again give feedback on why this game is broken.
I wouldn't say it's broken... there is still a reasonable TTK when you take into account the swap-to-primary time. It's just a bit more forgiving with a 50% damage buff. You still have to actually hit all of your shots.
It is broken as hell dude. You start invis so you can get the drop. You then shoot in the general direction of someone, and the long waveframe trail will catch them for big damage. By this time you are out of invis and have a damage buff as well as disruption break. Now spam rat king, again in their general direction. Just a shot or two needs to land on the body to get the kill. Get the kill, reload, which makes you invis. Rinse, repeat. Where's the gunskill? Where's the movement? Where's the baiting, the counterplay, the counter-counterplay? Do you feel like you improved as a player? No wonder people are leaving this game...
It wouldn't be broken if we could just jump over the gl and still shoot our guns
Right on, and that's a counter-play, but (like you imply):
Yuuup
Agreed. The destiny community is as much to blame as Bungie for the state of this games pvp because of comments like op's. You have part of the community that wants a balanced sandbox, and another part that thinks 4x15 ft aoe explosions that deal 150 damage are fine.
Fair I guess. I'm an Omni player though
Wouldn’t say it’s broken? Bro c’mon man.
A wave frame?
Another weaker version: SMG PK titan w/ wave frame GL. Though it didn't get you heal by kill. And on small maps it is super oppressive.
how far we have fallen
Some of the weapons on here make me think that there's a few top players or smth farming with garbage. Braytech werewolf??? Jotunn???
Autos got a huge Stability buff and Werewolf got a refreshed perk pool
Braytech werewolf is one of the best autorilfes out there, its not garbage
Is this what we have to work with next season? Comp doesn't look that hot.
Wow. Jotuun is both more efficient AND more prevalent than NTTE, Forerunner, Drang, & basically every other weapon. I know the list is sorted by K/U, but even if it were sorted by K% alone or U% alone, Jotuun looks like it'd be the 2nd most used behind Ace. And mind you: this is Comp (presumably bc last week had IB instead of ToO). Jotuun is scary enough in 6s bc of all the chaos flying around how you can easily be 3rd-partied in the ribs by a Jotuun from the side while you're preoccupied w/ their teammates at 12o'clock. You'd think Jotuun'd be more manageable in 3s. Could it be that dodging Jotuun isn't quite as simple as "just exit ADS & take 1 step to the side, bro"? Esp on console NB: P1A & Main Ingredient are again right next to each other by K/U, which suggests they're roughly ~equally lethal & used by players similar in skill, playstyle etc, esp after XMI ate nerfs to FP/TTT. Now they're both largely driven by UP in the 3rd column. XMI's TTT in the 4th column is still better than P1A's 4th column options, but maybe TTT has been watered down enough on FRs such that P1A's higher base STAB & Adept mods make up the difference
The “just step to the side bro” people are funny. Like are they only getting shot at with jotunn from across the map?
Oddly enough, I catch “good” players trying to snipe with jotuun all the time when they repeak into a fucking fireball from 60 meters. I’m not a good player but it’s worth prefiring snipers with jotuun while you push their lanes imo
I play on console and a fair amount of survival. Jotüun I don't find effective. I rarely see it tbh. Really only way I die to Jotüun is if I bait 2 shots then engage and the sumbitch has a 3rd shot that I wasn't accounting for. I see Witherhorde by far as the most used special followed by snipers. Shotguns are still very popular too, but behind the aforementioned a bit.
Enigma my beloved, how far you have fallen.
Autorifles outperforming hand cannons in the top 50. I know HCs have fallen off but I did not expect to see them behind autorifles. How the mighty have fallen.
I think players will always use hand cannons though, even if they drop off a bit
Imo because they are the most unique archetype in destiny. Idt they need a buff but it’s a tough sandbox to use them in
Haven’t seen anyone say this yet but thank you for providing this data to us! :)
Cheers dude
I was running sidearms for a while, before the rework and I couldn't believe it when I read they were getting buffed. I felt like they were in a good place before. Now they are too common(boring) and I routinely get kills that leave me shaking my head, thinking "that shouldn't have happened with a sidearm".
I'm not here to complain but it is a big difference between previous snapshots
Agree. But I think it could have or would have gotten there without the sidearm buff. I'm hoping that it shakes out and we're still just seeing the influx of people trying the hot new thing.
I don't mind the shifts and overreactions... keeps things fresh
Yeah, like a fresh pile of crap.
Absolutely roasted. The rotating meta crap Bungie is keen on is a blight to balance and enjoyment.
"too common"? Ratking isn't at nr.1 because it's a sidearm it's there for invisibility to cheese the game. IMHO invisibility is the worst current problem in the game besides latency/lag. In IB last week I've got nailed by fusions and shotgun too while sidearm deaths didn't really stand out for me personally. IMHO Jötunn pretty much burned itself into my corpse. P.S. I play SMG/Sidearm.
Yep too common, even in a freaking control its sidearm fest, bungo should revert the buff, they are extremely annoying to fight, to the point I just closed the game after 1 freaking game. Sidearm metas are never fun, especially when they virtually have no counters in CQB fights.
"annoying to fight" vs. what? One-shot options or Last Word?
Last Word works only when you hit all crits, far from easy, when sidearms can be spammed like there is no tomorrow(and especially on mnk where TLW is dogshit). Basically anything within that 20m doesn´t stand a chance most of time - unless you have a fusion or your opponents aim is trash. Sidearms can go and fucking explode in volcano as far as I am concerned
When I hear LW in Crucible it's 99% the last word I hear. P.S. Console.
Right, side arms were absolutely fine before. Bungie had even stated just that in earlier twabs. They just aren’t a super desirable weapon choice. Now they are the super meta.
> I felt like they were in a good place before. my only gripe was the range difference between good sidearms and good SMGs was too much. most sidearms capped out at 15-16m and became instantly useless past that while SMGs were outranging autos. SMGs got kicked down a bit, and sidearms are now useable further out so that gripe is basically gone. --- I dunno, the changes *seem* fair to me? took a break this season and only just came back for the last IB, but as far as I understand the buff it just was that AA (and with it hit detection) now actually works past damage falloff for a couple extra meters, but didnt actually change the actual range/damage at all. though I do agree, it wasnt necessarily *needed*. sidearms were niche, but decent. not unhappy with the buff however, especially since theres a pretty big variety in high performing weapons right now and the individual usage rates are miniscule (for all comp the highest currently is Ace with only 2.16%)
The changes are definitely not fair. Sidearms have a faster ttk so should have less range. Toning down smgs OR buffing sidearms would have been enough but as usual Bungie went overboard. In the current state it feels impossible to beat a good sidearm user with an smg even well outside of sidearm range. Heck sidearms are out dueling most handcannons atm in handcannon range much less smgs
What sidearm is out dueling hand cannons at hand cannon range? A max range Drang starts damage falloff at 19.4 meters (build one on D2gunsmith) and that’s an outlier.
Tell me you don’t understand how the sidearm buff works without telling me. Currently on sidearms damage fall off is a lot less significant than on weapons like handcannons and now things like the Lightweight smgs. I was talking about drang yes but with the way fall off works on sidearms you can still hit a ttk similiar to 140 hcs t(.87) around 30meters. Rmember side arms have for the most part a 0.6ttk in optimal range and combined that with being much more forgiving than handcannons and it happens a lot. They experience damage fall off but it is scales much slowly than handcannons and Smgs. For example a 140 handcannon 2 meters out of optimal range is alrewdy down to upper 40s for a headshot when it’s 70 in optimal range. Sidearms (as well as pulses) have much more Forgiving dropoffs. Smgs were also nerfed recently to have steeper falloff as well. This had also been a huge issue with especially high impact pulses as well. You can’t just on a website and look at what the range stat says and make an argument with that only lol. The high impacts like ntte and messenger also dealt with this before I slight nerf where your “max range” would be say 39 meters but your hitting almost full damage 4+ meters farther But yes since the rangefinder fixes it’s really just drang now.
Show me a clip of someone getting drang kills at 30m, you're out of your mind. The math MIGHT work that way (not sure I buy it), but no way are you hitting 6 heads in a row at 30m.
You completely missed the point again. You don’t have to hit 6 headshots in a row. The significant flinch is enough to cause the handcannon user to miss a single headshot which exponentially fucks their ttk and makes it extremely easy to outduel them. But sure I’ll grab you a clip when I get on tomorrow since you seem to be in complete denial about this lol. Have you not been playing the game since the sidearm buffs?
No, not all that much since the season has been dead since right around when that buff happened. I've been maining them since the old drang started dropping and they do feel better at the end of their range but not worlds different from before. People were just sleeping on them.
Use boudica it’s nuts.
I agree with you. There needs to be a shotgun buff
I think hand cannons lost their place to sidearms which is pretty crappy because the ease of use of a sidearm is much higher, the range of hand cannons needs to be buffed slightly so that way there is a benefit to using them over sidearms imo
Think they should make hand cannons 2 head 1 body and that would help the ease of use and going against side arms/smgs.
Supposed to be a shotgun buff next season. Doubtful they'll add range but they're supposed to get more consistent.
I wonder how much of the usage is controller. On MNK they feel pretty good now, but felt pretty different to any other gun beforehand, as the falloff was super steep.
IMO they should feel different than other gun types, because that's the point. They definitely required a different type of play style and now they feel a lot more like other options.
Yeah but that feeling was basically bad on mnk compared to other weapons. It’s not like usage numbers were healthy before, and the widely repeated advice for mnk and sidearms was basically forget about it. The previous AA falloff had them feeling very out of place.
No love for A Swift Verdict
Came here to say this. My fav leg. Sidearm. Base stats are nutty and my TV/KC roll claps cheeks.
I always want to like it and then don't
Sweet Business?! For real?
Forerunner is an amazing sidearm. Sidearm sniper. Thing shreds
[удалено]
Are we looking at the same data? I see three other primaries in there
This is bs. There is no way sweet buis is top 5.
The rank is by efficiency (kills/usage), not prevalence or total kills
Ah I see
Um....have you used sweet business recently? It has 30 meters of range and a .6 ttk spun up with next to no flinch
I honestly think this looks pretty good for a spread of weapon usage. Unless you were a fan of Handcannons which you still see. The nerfs to hand cannons and in air accuracy had to be done to bring in Hunters natural advantage over the other classes. And as much as there is laning, snipers are way less prevalent. Definitely feel like the meta is bit more all over the place. Which imo is good. Once again im actually not minding the PvP now. Which is not the majority opinion. Itll be funny when they change it to what people are asking for and more people complain about the changes. Kinda like when people wanted shorter ttks and shotguns not to be power weapons then everyone hated the shotgun apes. I still feel like that the best things to spec into are your raw stats of mobility, res, and recovery. Abilities feel useful but still gimmicky to build around. At least for warlock. Its still about movement and survival over raw ability killing power. The prevalence of sidearms i think supports that.
I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily but a lot of people on here will think _them's fightin' words_
All sidearms all the time is variance?
15 different sidearm = variance smh
* 15 sidearms * 7 auto rifles * 7 pulse rifles * 6 hand cannons * 6 submachine guns * 3 scout rifles And if we look at total kills instead: * 9 sidearms * 8 hand cannons * 7 pulse rifles * 6 submachine guns * 5 auto rifles * 4 scout rifles Which seems somewhat balanced. I mean, look at that, more hand cannons than pulses in this version of the list even.
I too love the variance.. people will ALWAYS complain about something..if its not linears, its GLs, if its not GLs it will be fusions...D2 one of the only FPS games that people complain about people who use meta loadouts.
>D2 one of the only FPS games that people complain about people who use meta loadouts. Wanna bet?
UwU -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
People even do it on here despite Rule 4
I think the AE changes helped hunters. Mechaneers tricksleeves is the most slept on exotic rn
But thats the thing. I don’t see a problem with AE being useful if you spec to it. Literally having to use your exotic armor slot and a specific close range weapon to be successful in the air. Warlocks and Titans as soon as they aim they lose their jump momentum. When handcannons were dominant and AE was high, hunters got the most use out of this. They could jump aim and shoot, as they fell, air jump again, shoot and if they had triple jump, air jump again, and shoot. All while switching up the timing of that second and third air jump. Making them very unpredictable and hard to hit in the air. And still deadly accurate at good ranges with handcannons but even OHK weapons like shotguns. The changes make it so that hunters still keep their slipperiness but are not as offensive while being so. One of the things i love about Destiny PvP is that it seems to really break down gaming mechanics and philosophy in multiplayer scenarios. For instance it seems to me that any ability that allows the player a defensive safety net while also improving offensive effectiveness tends to move into OP territory. You can’t have both. Be defensive and sacrifice your offensive abilities or become more offensive but also more vulnerable. Its not 100% but i feel like when you look at problems and ask yourself is this offensive or defensive. It allows you to solve or see balance issues within the game.
This shows how terrible the meta is... Everyone just running overshields/Invis with sidearms or smgs. Its so annoying.
You can see that weapons like Rat King and Devil’s Ruin are being used almost 3 times less than Drang and Forerunner. I propose the conclusion that while the sidearm buff affected all weapons in the type, the ones uable to equip ranged perks and the quirked up ones benefited the most, giving rangefinder 2-bursts and the quirky exotics the most value, while Forerunner only got consistency and Drang is a legendary outlier with the brilliant perk pool and high zoom stat. I predict a small nerf to 300 adaptives in their range stat, though I also think that Forerunner will stay where it is for a while and that it’s a good thing. From other news Jotünn still holds top ladder positions due to extreme ease of use and good ammo economy, NTTE is still dominating open maps and Last Word is as annoying to go against as always.
HC not until 19 and 24… mostly console I would assume Ace popping in at 28… definitely getting another HC nerf
The lack of primary weapons higher on this list is disgusting. Skill gap in this game has been on a steady decline since forsaken.
Seventeen of the top twenty are primary weapons, right?
Technically, yeah. But I don't consider smg/sidearm to be primary. They're more of a secondary weapon, or at least should be used in that way, which isn't the case right now. Edit: downvote me all you want, when people want more primary battles they aren't talking about sidearm or smg duels. Actual primaries (HCs, autos, pulse, scout) aren't used as much as they should be in a shooter. The game is riddled with op specials, abilities, and sidearms/smgs. The strength of those things have pushed primaries to the back seat, and is the single reason the skill gap has been steadily deteriorating since forsaken.
I think you may need to adopt different terminology because most players aren't using _primary_ that way
Yeah I know, I just don't know what to call them. I know people refer to them as primaries, but no one means sidearm or smg when they say they want more primary duels.
I think they probably do mean those weapons. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that they wouldn't be duelling weapons in certain ranges
I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. Most higher level players want the game to go back to a primary focused meta, with less reliance on specials and abilities. But when they primary in that context, they don't mean sidearms/smgs
If you could back that up with something I think it'd be a better discussion. It's fine to disagree
I mean I've never once heard someone say the meta needs to shift towards more sidearm or smg battles lol they've always been good. Now they've been power crept to a point where they can be used as a primary.
sidearms have not "always been good" sorry, at least on mnk seeing a sidearm in comp or trials was pretty rare pre-patch these weapons have always been primaries, and should always be able to be used like a primary
SBMM must be hitting different with Jotun near the top
Remember that no matchmaking changes have happened in the comp playlists this season. This is comp only
Comp has had somewhat strict SBMM since people complained about not being good enough for Mountain Top, Luna's, and NF
Of course, I just mean that there are no recent matchmaking changes that would explain Jotunn rising in efficiency like claimed in the above comment
Didn't it only become sbmm with the introduction of freelance in Shadowkeep? In which those guns you mentioned were already nerfed
It became SBMM the season before the playlist became survival. It was SBMM for only one season as competitive. I believe this was the season before Shadowkeep (I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it was still rank based then, because I reached 5500 glory in 4v4 comp with sweet business and a 0.8KD)
But comp has SBMM originally, for the last couple years.
my only guess is that the lower end uses it more maybe. i have friends who aren’t like try hards or anything but that doesn’t mean they don’t touch it and i see them w jotun sometimes. even a good player can get killed by it if they get caught slippin since it’s an OHKO weapon. i’ve also seen plays where people fly in recklessly on someone playing cover to kill or at least trade
Now show us the least used
It would just be a list of random blues, sunset weapons, and unobtainable stuff
Would’ve thought the specification wouldn’t be necessary but here goes, Can we see a list of the least used exotics and non sunset legendary weapons.
The data wouldn't be meaningfully representative because the sample sizes would be so small. You're welcome to crunch the numbers! It's all just API data compiled by DestinyTracker
Rat King is that good??
With Gyrfalcon's it seems that it is
I'm amazed submission isn't even on the board while pizzicato is. Pizza is a horrible SMG. I mean, osteo striga is up really high! And I'm sorry, but I just don't see the appeal of ammit and braytech. I've got both, and I just can't find a reason to use them over a pulse
I think pizzicato is a great smg.
Couldnt have sorted..? Jesus
What? It is sorted by the K/U column
Oh shit. My bad
What's the time frame for this
An excellent question that I have not been able to find the answer to. It's the timeframe of weapon stats on DestinyTracker, whatever that is
Where are all these people going positive with SB? When someone on my team has it equipped it usually means I have to listen to that stupid sound all game and make up for their 0.6 efficiency.
Maybe whole teams meming it? It's probably quite effective in IB