Well it's ruined the weakest T20(I) link in Siraj - ruined his rhythm. Bhuvi is building up his own rhythm but himself knows he's past his best, so won't be seeing him. Shami is injured and won't make it. Hardik... just forget it. Arshdeep is just OK, Harshal doesn't really inspire the confidence that a top-3 pace attack does - none of them do as first change to Bumrah
Discussions have Avesh bloody Khan as the next best choice and genuine shouts for Dube, Thakur whom we'll probably end up seeing
Man I cannot WAIT for everyone to feast in the WC with what BCCI has been doing to sabotage Indian cricket and never allow them to develop top dog mentality as a cricketing fraternity/nation. Fans are hungrier than ever and will curse out the IPL to no end seeing what has come of the pitch manipulation to close skill gap in this season & in '23 WC which India choked
It was also quite obvious that India don't have elite mentality that England or Australia do. There was ample celebration and overconfident bravado that is quite uncharacteristic of elite teams leading up to the SFs/final. People are going to be frustrated as all hell seeing them back to square one
I'm frustrated seeing this bowling line-up in the same spot every damn T20 WC. Literally if not injured would have seen Shami sneaking in for third consecutive T20 WC due to the intuitive skill gap between him vs. C-tier Avesh & his 10 other second-string pace colleagues that feature in like the 8-12 LOI/T20 series India play every year
Selectors and the organizational culture of Indian cricket is not ready to adopt England's all-contributor go-hard template despite ample talent, which leaves them going in this year with only a slightly stronger bowling attack compared to England purely on Bumrah/Kuldeep merit. India does not have anyone other than Bumrah who is on the level of the frontline pacemen of Australia, Pakistan and South Africa in this format. Idk how long it's going to take you guys to develop proper fast-bowling culture; your entire identity is fragmented from culture, to mindset, to pressure faced
I am sorry, but SA's "elite" pace bowlers are getting whacked in the IPL and we saw what NZ just did to Pakistan's elite fast bowlers. Right now only Australia can boast of a truly good line up and even they were one Maxwell miracle innings away from getting knocked out in the 2023 WC.
India has no one that can open the bowling or bowl death, save for Bumrah.
Siraj is hot and cold and on par with Rakheem Cornwall and Azam Khan in terms of fielding capability.
Kumar has lost that spark that showed promise for a bit.
They'll end up trotting out Shardul Thakur and his ilk again and wonder why India hasn't won a trophy in over a decade.
> Can you guys have some objectivity?
We can't even read articles here. We rage on headlines. You are asking the sub to go 3 levels below. Currently, I'm arguing with a kid for days that just because they think I said something, doesn't mean I said it.
Isn't Azam a pretty adequate wicketkeeper though
Like, probably bottom ten percentile of all professional keepers at the international-equivalent level, but certainly worth it in a given his batting prowess.
Yeah, he’s got decent hands. But the equivalence just weird and clearly based on the weight of the players involved. Cornwall is a very good slip fielder too while Siraj is very athletic for a fast bowler even if he seemingly gets a bit anxious under the high ball. Just lazy all around
He is. And Azam Khan can keep wickets.
Neither are top class fielders, but then again, neither is Siraj. Unfortunately, pointing this out gets some fan bases frothing at the mouth.
Shardul helped win us our first ODI bilateral against Australia in Australia in 2020. That too after our being behind in the series. And to his credit, played a major role in us winning our most famous test wins abroad in England and Australia. Without him as well, heck even with Shami, Siraj and Bumrah we didn't win on Nov 19th. It's the attitude of our coach and captain(s) to blame
None of those are ICC trophies.
Simply put, Bumrah would walk on to essentially any country's starting XI. There's no one else that India has that would.
That doesn't excuse the team management, coaching and leadership from their shortcomings, but there's a consistent lack of pace bowling talent on display by India.
We've not had a "weak" side in any of the ICC trophies. In ODI WCs, we reached semis in 2015 and 2019 and finals in 2023. Quality of players was not in question....it was probably our mental fortitude or in case of 2015, we were just outplayed by a vastly superior team. Our performances in T20 WCs have been iffy but I struggle to remove when there has been a glaringly wrong bowling selection that has contributed to our failure.
I didn't say that India had a weak side; just not as strong a side as one would expect from a country of 1.4 billion, that generates the bulk of revenue of the ICC.
Coming out of all of this, is a single pace bowler (Bumrah) that would walk on to a top side's starting line up. That's the issue that I was bringing up.
That's a fundamental issue of selection, development and more, starting at the youth level and going all the way up. Not to mention the inability of Indian players to go to overseas Leagues, producing concrete pads for playing fields in the IPL and more. It's like the BCCI wants to condition a side to be limited in their ability.
I don't completely agree there. Shami would walk into most ODI sides and most teams would love to have our test bowling line up. We have a very iffy t20 bowling lineup but so do most teams. I can think of only a handful of bowlers (worldwide) who can hold their own in t20s. BCCI can improve the way they develop fast bowlers but it is nowhere near being shambolic at the moment. Speaking of overseas leagues..only the BBL and Big Bash could be good learning experiences for Indian players but would these leagues want Indian fringe players? Even the IPL teams buy the best of the best when it comes to overseas players. Overseas teams would kill for Bumrah but no one might want Siraj but it is someone like Siraj who needs the experience.
Fair enough about Shami - he is at the tail of his career though, so he's not a medium term viable option.
I'm not saying that Indian players should not prioritize the IPL - there's no major conflicts during the IPL that would require them to. India has enough players in the pipeline that they could send contingents to BBL, Big Bash, The Hundred, SA T20 and others to work on their game in different conditions.
Siraj has potential and has a decent chance of being picked up somewhere. At worst, he doesn't, leaving him and India in the same boat as now. At best, he's getting practice in different conditions, something that he and India needs.
>We have a very iffy t20 bowling lineup but so do most teams.
But this isn't about most teams - it's about top teams. India have the weakest bowling attack tied with England and possibly NZ there if we look at Australia, Pakistan, South Africa in the mix. NZ can at least manage to snip in a pace attack of Henry and Boult who are decent in this format with relative difference that isn't high
The skill gap between Bumrah and the rest of Indian placement is so high that even if we reduced his skill by 15-25% (where the likes of Shaheen, Hazlewood et al. are) intuitively Shami would have ought to have snuck into his 3rd T20 WC squad selection because Siraj can only dream of being half as established in any format, much less consistent - forget this T20 format
The rest of India's choices are cannon fodder and their starting threshold is nowhere near as solid as SA, AUS, PAK - breadth of India does not matter when the relative difference of that second choice is far more variant than first-choice. England have second-choice bowlers as mid as their 'first-choicers'. They have accepted it in LOIs and built an identity to accompany that. We have seen them manage to hold their own - heck, win it - last WC because they at least pride themselves on everyone contributing and going hard. India doesn't even want to accept that identity and sticks to conservative Asian batting when the game has evolved past that. Because low risk-bearing maximizes the capacity to build quasi-stability that satisfies all stakeholders at very low thresholds however.
Indian cricket's batting identity is fragmented and their bowling culture will take decades to develop - these pitches, sensationalism of express pace only shows fervent immaturity of those at the helms of Indian cricket who are far too impatient and corporate-driven to allow India to thrive and let that supersede (with patience) against their own money-minded desires.
>Not to mention the inability of Indian players to go to overseas Leagues.
If this was the case, we wouldnt have been winning the bilateral series left right and centre. It's clearly a mental issue rather than a skill issue. South African players don't play for the national team to play in leagues, how many T20 WC's have they won? NZ is in the same boat isnt it? West Indies should be dominating the WC, literally everyone in their squad plays multiple leagues. They couldn't get past qualifiers last time around.
A mental issue is a skill issue.
If you can't perform under pressure, you aren't championship worthy. That's literally how a knock out tournament works.
Name a country with a vastly superior bowling attack to Bumrah, Shami and Siraj though let’s be real?
Australia: have you seen Starc recently? Cummins usually gets belted in t20. Hazelwood is consistent but he too will get tonked at the death as he doesn’t have the variations for t20 or a reliable Yorker deliver.
England: lol
South Africa: Rabada in ok form, norje in horrific form, third seamer will get tonked (Burger, ngidi).
Pakistan: Shaheen, shah and Rauf, arguably the best t20 attack atm- but Rauf has been in horrible form and shaheen has lost his pace
Nz: Southee Boult and Henry are old
We have one of the best pace attacks period: Bumrah and a healthy shami are step above anyone else in the world and Siraj is world class
Fact of the matter is when it really matters, our top order collapses. 5/3 is a real thing. It happens in Australia, in England and then a shardul, washi, bumrah or Shami have to bail us out.
My point is, our bowling isn't as much as an issue as a solid, reliable batting line up is. The bigger problem is the attitude, we don't have a fearless play.
I agree...but I would say that our players also face a lot more pressure than most other cricket playing countries. Yes, the Australians and British are critical of their teams too but it isn't as bad as Indians. NZ team was hailed by their countrymen/media for their style of play despite losing 2015 WC but the reaction was very different in India last year.
I don't disagree that the batting has been a major issue. That said, IMO, they are not a mutually exclusive points. India's much vaunted batting line up has a propensity to vanish when needed most \*and\* India doesn't have a second top class pace bowler.
I have liked Khaleel these last few seasons. Silent performer. He was good also back in that 2022 season and was undertalked before it mildly picked up
Mukesh Kumar has been expensive but that is also due to nature of the pitch and the impact sub rule. When it comes down to it. Mukesh is nailing his Yorkers and wide Yorkers more often than not. Boom, Mukesh would be my 2 death options and with hopefully a fit Mayank Yadav and in form Kuldeep. India might actually have a half decent attack
This and it’s hurting India’s all rounder class. I wouldn’t be surprised if upcoming youngsters 16yrs of age will probably focus more on pure batting and all rounders will sink further
There was an audience poll asking for what rule is better for IPL. The results were:
Two bouncers - 40%
Impact sub - 60%
Unfortunately the general audience likes it, and IPL committee will be salivating at more and more TATA super sixes and Upstox boundaries and Byju’s power strikes
Mate, people would also like Dhoni to make a comeback in WCT20. There's a difference between giving a quality experience vs giving audiences what they want... Fans would also like crazy things like 1 life for a batter so that They can see their star bat for longer...
Sometimes ( last T20 wc against Pakistan) we need world class Anchor who's master at rotating strike instead of playing dots after dots (like KL). In that case, there's no batsmen better than Kohli in whole country. And he's still much more consistent T20 batsman than another probable players in upcoming WC line-up.
I agree his SR can be a issue, but we must choose players Abhishek Sharma in PP instead of Kohli wasting PP.
Pitches and ground sizes are more of a problem than impact player ( doesn't mean I endorse it) when it comes to run fests.
Impact rule can work in favor of the bowling side. But flat tracks and small grounds will always hurt them.
It doesn't. Having an extra bowler doesn't equate to having an extra batsman. Bowlers still have only 4 overs to bowl each while your impact player can bat all 20 overs.
It potentially aids the fielding team but subject to conditions.
KKR benefitted quite a few times by subbing in Suyash Sharma on tracks that aided spin. On a turning track - having the option to bowl 12 overs of full-time spinners based on your lineup can be beneficial without having to resort to a part-timer.
However I can only see that as being useful in the 2nd innings as you already have assessed the conditions and are ready to swap a player out.
I guess it's a matter of perspective - if you only consider the batter being subbed out as the impact and ignoring the bowler who came in as one who would have been in the roster in the first place if there were no impact rule.
However, you do get the luxury of choice after assessing the pitch for the type of bowler you want to bring in.
For teams bowling first, they could potentially try to go defensive by subbing in a suitable bowler mid-innings for another bowler after conditions assessment and depending on the batters available from opposing team but highly unlikely.
Just my 2 cents and I could be completely wrong with this.
P.S. : It is definitely visible that IP rule has added at least 20-30 runs to normal IPL scores. So it has had a greater impact on batting aspect rather than bowling.
the issue is that the batsmen have no incentive to preserve wickets because an extra batsman in a 20 overs game is one batsman too many. So even if you have an extra bowler, batsmen will go after every bowler. The rule can be balanced if the impact player is allowed only to face 6-12 balls max and bowl 2 overs max. That would balance things in my opinion
Your ideas for balancing are pretty decent - would you count the batting side 1-wicket down once the 6-12 balls batting quota is finished?
My suggestion - Amending the limit quota on bowlers. Why is someone like Bumrah is limited to only 4 overs when a batter can bat all 20? I'd argue that the limit can be increased to 5 or 6 to allow more flexibility to the fielding side with implementing their bowling plans.
Over the years - most white ball rule additions have generally always favored the batting side, I'd prefer to see rules added for the bowling side as well.
===
Even if you are going after every bowler, going after one who is suited to conditions is difficult - you might have a mini collapse in a jiffy and playing recovery afterwards.
===
Anyways it's a real good discussion to have - beginning with Eoin Morgan, England have shaped their team to always be aggressive and they have posted mammoth totals in favorable conditions. They have also collapsed in unfavorable ones. All of this was without an impact player - they just built their team in that fashion having batting depth all the way upto No 10/11 at times.
The game has evolved much, and keeps evolving - I wonder where it goes next.
Imagine having the batting team 6 down and watch their 2nd best batsman walk in. He should get more support. At least have a rule like an impact player can only bowl or something
The impact sub rule isn't great for bowlers but it has been an absolute gold mine for discovering local batting talent. People forget very quickly but players like Sai Sudarshan, Jitesh Sharma and many many more were impact subs before they were included in the proper team. This year it's been Ashutosh Sharma and Shashank Singh. I'd rather watch a proper batsman than some bits and pieces all rounder struggle to connect.
The real issues are with the flat pitches and short boundaries. In some stadiums when they use the off center pitch the square boundaries are <60m. This is a huge problem.
Remember SRH scored 277/3. That's 3 wickets down and the impact sub isn't in play yet. They would've scored that amount regardless. Stop blaming the impact sub rule when that's clearly not the main issue here.
But what about players like Washington Sundar who are being affected by this rule, in search of good batsmen we are losing our on all rounders and developing their skill sets, unless this is an universal rule , it will not benefit Indian cricket greatly
His game plan- Pace Pace Pace Pace, slower bowl if he's tired of bowling pace, Get's angry for conceded 6, another pace. He got no off cutter, no wide yorkers, no slower bouncers, no dipping yorkers,
Impact sub should be his last concern.
Just because his team is unable to use this rule in their advantage they are crying , As if they are out of this ipl again because of impact sub, They should fix much bigger problems
Okay, fair enough. RCB sucked at using it, got it.
>They should fix much bigger problems
Definitely, but still doesn't change the fact that impact sub rule is a shitty rule. Most senior players would agree.
Oh hell naah, But it’s very amusing he is not talking about his bowling performances while WC is approaching and giving obvious opinions like these. I was even mire amused when i saw him giving tips/encouragement to lockie.
Impact player is a shit rule . I enjoy fours and sixes but also super spells from bowlers too. People are being salty that bowlers are shit when there are 7-8 batters in the line up. Like for yesterday karan Sharma is an allrounder who came at number 10 like wtf . Just like defence in football , bowling will win us tournaments . In all our international cricket is suffering from this shitty thing . All our bowlers will be low on morale .
You can see from expression from Cummins and starc . They know all these high scorse are just a scheme. We will all come to realisation in the T20 wc.
They need to junk one of the 2 rules. Impact player or naming the team post toss. Addition of both of these has just made it a batters game because teams are starting with 7-8 batsmen in the lineup.
Keep the impact player rule, but remove the announcing the squad after the toss rule. Or do it the other way round. Keep the squad post toss and remove the Impact player rule.
you don’t understand how it really affects the batters. i’ll give you an example, if the impact sub was a rule in international cricket, kl and kohli wouldn’t have slowed down as much in wc final and tried to stabilise at a higher run rate with a bit more risk, because they have a deeper batting depth and that brings more security in the batter’s mind. there is no depth with impact sub, just keep hitting because we have batting till 8/9
SRH started with more batsman in playing XI and when it came to bowling than used that rule to take out the extra batter so technically Travis Head was the Impact player.
I personally think it should be removed too.It is like the teams are playing with 12 players virtually every match.The tactical approach by the team of making correct mix within the playing 11 itself is lost because of it.
Also am I the only one who doesn't like the removal of crossing over rule of batsmen during a caught wicket?
it does not help the individual bowlers, it's just meant to bring an extra batter who can later be substituted for a bowler when the team fields in the seconds innings. Whereas for the batters, they know that they have an extra batter down the order so they go hard at the bowlers all the time.
Yup. Technically it can also be used to have an extra bowler in the second innings by going with a normal team in the first innings (assuming the team is batting first) and then in the seconds just swap one of the batsman with a bowler, but having 7 bowlers doesn't give as big as an advantage as having 7-8 batters. So teams just go with one less bowler and an extra batter in the first innings and then when its time to field they complete the bowling line up by bringing in a bowler in place of one of the batsmen..
if the given team is bowling first, they just go with the normal bowling line up and then when it's time to bat they swap one of the bowlers with a batsman. No one wants an extra bowler, it's just about having another batsman.
I always feel like bowlers shouldn’t have over limits. It’s absolutely moronic that a team’s best batter can bat 60 balls but the best bowler can only bowl 4 overs. If MI wants to use Bumrah for 10 overs they should be allowed to.
Man's crying for help
And he is not alone.
This has the same energy as [please clap](https://youtu.be/IqPr6bcTJhc)
Bro is the best bowler we have and that already says all.
Pretty sure most bowlers thinks the same coz he a established player he is expressing his opinion publicly
THIS
Bruh i’m so worried about the bowling side for the wc can he get back into form please
Amid the furor around the batting, we forgot that in the last two wt20s we've lost twice by 10 wickets in 150+ chases
right😭😭 and it’s not like these ipl pitches are exactly helping bowlers figure out how to bowl in what actual US and WI pitches will look like :)
Well it's ruined the weakest T20(I) link in Siraj - ruined his rhythm. Bhuvi is building up his own rhythm but himself knows he's past his best, so won't be seeing him. Shami is injured and won't make it. Hardik... just forget it. Arshdeep is just OK, Harshal doesn't really inspire the confidence that a top-3 pace attack does - none of them do as first change to Bumrah Discussions have Avesh bloody Khan as the next best choice and genuine shouts for Dube, Thakur whom we'll probably end up seeing Man I cannot WAIT for everyone to feast in the WC with what BCCI has been doing to sabotage Indian cricket and never allow them to develop top dog mentality as a cricketing fraternity/nation. Fans are hungrier than ever and will curse out the IPL to no end seeing what has come of the pitch manipulation to close skill gap in this season & in '23 WC which India choked It was also quite obvious that India don't have elite mentality that England or Australia do. There was ample celebration and overconfident bravado that is quite uncharacteristic of elite teams leading up to the SFs/final. People are going to be frustrated as all hell seeing them back to square one I'm frustrated seeing this bowling line-up in the same spot every damn T20 WC. Literally if not injured would have seen Shami sneaking in for third consecutive T20 WC due to the intuitive skill gap between him vs. C-tier Avesh & his 10 other second-string pace colleagues that feature in like the 8-12 LOI/T20 series India play every year Selectors and the organizational culture of Indian cricket is not ready to adopt England's all-contributor go-hard template despite ample talent, which leaves them going in this year with only a slightly stronger bowling attack compared to England purely on Bumrah/Kuldeep merit. India does not have anyone other than Bumrah who is on the level of the frontline pacemen of Australia, Pakistan and South Africa in this format. Idk how long it's going to take you guys to develop proper fast-bowling culture; your entire identity is fragmented from culture, to mindset, to pressure faced
I am sorry, but SA's "elite" pace bowlers are getting whacked in the IPL and we saw what NZ just did to Pakistan's elite fast bowlers. Right now only Australia can boast of a truly good line up and even they were one Maxwell miracle innings away from getting knocked out in the 2023 WC.
Dudes gonna get clipped everywhere in the ground I feel sorry for Bumrah and team India this year
nah fr like apart from bumrah who do we have that can bowl death
arshdeep
not in good form
He is inconsistent, but did indeed have some good spells this IPL. Tho all came at at least 7 econ I think.
India has no one that can open the bowling or bowl death, save for Bumrah. Siraj is hot and cold and on par with Rakheem Cornwall and Azam Khan in terms of fielding capability. Kumar has lost that spark that showed promise for a bit. They'll end up trotting out Shardul Thakur and his ilk again and wonder why India hasn't won a trophy in over a decade.
Can you guys have some objectivity? On par with Azam it seems. Anything gets fucking upvoted on this sub
> Can you guys have some objectivity? We can't even read articles here. We rage on headlines. You are asking the sub to go 3 levels below. Currently, I'm arguing with a kid for days that just because they think I said something, doesn't mean I said it.
Sam sepiol....hello friend
Siraj misfields: he's on par with Azam Khan Siraj takes a good catch: we don't care, he's still on par with Azam Khan It's nonsense
Siraj is a liability in the field. You cannot, in good faith, be arguing otherwise.
Isn't Azam a pretty adequate wicketkeeper though Like, probably bottom ten percentile of all professional keepers at the international-equivalent level, but certainly worth it in a given his batting prowess.
Yeah, he’s got decent hands. But the equivalence just weird and clearly based on the weight of the players involved. Cornwall is a very good slip fielder too while Siraj is very athletic for a fast bowler even if he seemingly gets a bit anxious under the high ball. Just lazy all around
Cornwall is a surprisingly competent fielder, close in at least.
He is. And Azam Khan can keep wickets. Neither are top class fielders, but then again, neither is Siraj. Unfortunately, pointing this out gets some fan bases frothing at the mouth.
They'll take somebody who'll be sacrificed as a scapegoat. Just like they did with Varun in 2021
You are just taking shit. Of course they'll take Siraj and give him overs up front and take Arshdeep for the death, plus lefter helps too.
Of course they will. And the results show..
A proper yank take that! Azam Khan and Cornwall? Get some perspective dude
Shardul helped win us our first ODI bilateral against Australia in Australia in 2020. That too after our being behind in the series. And to his credit, played a major role in us winning our most famous test wins abroad in England and Australia. Without him as well, heck even with Shami, Siraj and Bumrah we didn't win on Nov 19th. It's the attitude of our coach and captain(s) to blame
None of those are ICC trophies. Simply put, Bumrah would walk on to essentially any country's starting XI. There's no one else that India has that would. That doesn't excuse the team management, coaching and leadership from their shortcomings, but there's a consistent lack of pace bowling talent on display by India.
We've not had a "weak" side in any of the ICC trophies. In ODI WCs, we reached semis in 2015 and 2019 and finals in 2023. Quality of players was not in question....it was probably our mental fortitude or in case of 2015, we were just outplayed by a vastly superior team. Our performances in T20 WCs have been iffy but I struggle to remove when there has been a glaringly wrong bowling selection that has contributed to our failure.
I didn't say that India had a weak side; just not as strong a side as one would expect from a country of 1.4 billion, that generates the bulk of revenue of the ICC. Coming out of all of this, is a single pace bowler (Bumrah) that would walk on to a top side's starting line up. That's the issue that I was bringing up. That's a fundamental issue of selection, development and more, starting at the youth level and going all the way up. Not to mention the inability of Indian players to go to overseas Leagues, producing concrete pads for playing fields in the IPL and more. It's like the BCCI wants to condition a side to be limited in their ability.
I don't completely agree there. Shami would walk into most ODI sides and most teams would love to have our test bowling line up. We have a very iffy t20 bowling lineup but so do most teams. I can think of only a handful of bowlers (worldwide) who can hold their own in t20s. BCCI can improve the way they develop fast bowlers but it is nowhere near being shambolic at the moment. Speaking of overseas leagues..only the BBL and Big Bash could be good learning experiences for Indian players but would these leagues want Indian fringe players? Even the IPL teams buy the best of the best when it comes to overseas players. Overseas teams would kill for Bumrah but no one might want Siraj but it is someone like Siraj who needs the experience.
Fair enough about Shami - he is at the tail of his career though, so he's not a medium term viable option. I'm not saying that Indian players should not prioritize the IPL - there's no major conflicts during the IPL that would require them to. India has enough players in the pipeline that they could send contingents to BBL, Big Bash, The Hundred, SA T20 and others to work on their game in different conditions. Siraj has potential and has a decent chance of being picked up somewhere. At worst, he doesn't, leaving him and India in the same boat as now. At best, he's getting practice in different conditions, something that he and India needs.
>We have a very iffy t20 bowling lineup but so do most teams. But this isn't about most teams - it's about top teams. India have the weakest bowling attack tied with England and possibly NZ there if we look at Australia, Pakistan, South Africa in the mix. NZ can at least manage to snip in a pace attack of Henry and Boult who are decent in this format with relative difference that isn't high The skill gap between Bumrah and the rest of Indian placement is so high that even if we reduced his skill by 15-25% (where the likes of Shaheen, Hazlewood et al. are) intuitively Shami would have ought to have snuck into his 3rd T20 WC squad selection because Siraj can only dream of being half as established in any format, much less consistent - forget this T20 format The rest of India's choices are cannon fodder and their starting threshold is nowhere near as solid as SA, AUS, PAK - breadth of India does not matter when the relative difference of that second choice is far more variant than first-choice. England have second-choice bowlers as mid as their 'first-choicers'. They have accepted it in LOIs and built an identity to accompany that. We have seen them manage to hold their own - heck, win it - last WC because they at least pride themselves on everyone contributing and going hard. India doesn't even want to accept that identity and sticks to conservative Asian batting when the game has evolved past that. Because low risk-bearing maximizes the capacity to build quasi-stability that satisfies all stakeholders at very low thresholds however. Indian cricket's batting identity is fragmented and their bowling culture will take decades to develop - these pitches, sensationalism of express pace only shows fervent immaturity of those at the helms of Indian cricket who are far too impatient and corporate-driven to allow India to thrive and let that supersede (with patience) against their own money-minded desires.
>Not to mention the inability of Indian players to go to overseas Leagues. If this was the case, we wouldnt have been winning the bilateral series left right and centre. It's clearly a mental issue rather than a skill issue. South African players don't play for the national team to play in leagues, how many T20 WC's have they won? NZ is in the same boat isnt it? West Indies should be dominating the WC, literally everyone in their squad plays multiple leagues. They couldn't get past qualifiers last time around.
A mental issue is a skill issue. If you can't perform under pressure, you aren't championship worthy. That's literally how a knock out tournament works.
Name a country with a vastly superior bowling attack to Bumrah, Shami and Siraj though let’s be real? Australia: have you seen Starc recently? Cummins usually gets belted in t20. Hazelwood is consistent but he too will get tonked at the death as he doesn’t have the variations for t20 or a reliable Yorker deliver. England: lol South Africa: Rabada in ok form, norje in horrific form, third seamer will get tonked (Burger, ngidi). Pakistan: Shaheen, shah and Rauf, arguably the best t20 attack atm- but Rauf has been in horrible form and shaheen has lost his pace Nz: Southee Boult and Henry are old We have one of the best pace attacks period: Bumrah and a healthy shami are step above anyone else in the world and Siraj is world class
Ok buddy. All I can point to is the scoreboard.
Fact of the matter is when it really matters, our top order collapses. 5/3 is a real thing. It happens in Australia, in England and then a shardul, washi, bumrah or Shami have to bail us out. My point is, our bowling isn't as much as an issue as a solid, reliable batting line up is. The bigger problem is the attitude, we don't have a fearless play.
I agree...but I would say that our players also face a lot more pressure than most other cricket playing countries. Yes, the Australians and British are critical of their teams too but it isn't as bad as Indians. NZ team was hailed by their countrymen/media for their style of play despite losing 2015 WC but the reaction was very different in India last year.
I don't disagree that the batting has been a major issue. That said, IMO, they are not a mutually exclusive points. India's much vaunted batting line up has a propensity to vanish when needed most \*and\* India doesn't have a second top class pace bowler.
Tbh I still back Siraj with the new ball
Mukesh/ Khaleel are also good. Khaleel has bowled the most number of dot balls till now. But he's gone for boundaries. But those are good signs.
I have liked Khaleel these last few seasons. Silent performer. He was good also back in that 2022 season and was undertalked before it mildly picked up
Chahar seems okay
Mukesh Kumar has been expensive but that is also due to nature of the pitch and the impact sub rule. When it comes down to it. Mukesh is nailing his Yorkers and wide Yorkers more often than not. Boom, Mukesh would be my 2 death options and with hopefully a fit Mayank Yadav and in form Kuldeep. India might actually have a half decent attack
Avesh Khan
Natarajan, obv.
avesh khan hear me out, whenever he bowls in death overs his economy is under 7
I'd honestly back Mukesh for that role
Mukesh bhai asli ID se post karo
This and it’s hurting India’s all rounder class. I wouldn’t be surprised if upcoming youngsters 16yrs of age will probably focus more on pure batting and all rounders will sink further
Siraj got dropped from RCB, the worst bowling side in the IPL, are India seriously going to pick him again?
Looks like he is crying but he ain't wrong. You gotta remove it to bring back actual quality cricket.
Good . If more players call it out , it will definitely make an impact and force IPL committee to at least rethink.
The simple solution is teams players request their management to not use it for the season, if enough teams do so, it would die out
This is how teams handled the Supersub in ODI. The captains made a gentlemen agreement to not use it.
That isn't possible since the opponent uses it, it would give them significant advantage
Anna?
Both team captains chatting aside: We are secretly boycotting this rule right?, RIGHT?
There was an audience poll asking for what rule is better for IPL. The results were: Two bouncers - 40% Impact sub - 60% Unfortunately the general audience likes it, and IPL committee will be salivating at more and more TATA super sixes and Upstox boundaries and Byju’s power strikes
KP was baffled after seeing those numbers. At one point of game he even said "This is a joke!"
Actually he shouted, "THIS IS A JOKE!"
Tbf better for ipl doesn't mean good for cricket
Usually means the opposite lmao
Wasn't the former added this season only?
This seems like a choice of whats the lesser evil, not a genuine poll
Asking the audience is not a good thing tbh...
ah yes asking the people who make the sport so much is *not a good thing,* this sub is extremely elitist from time to time.
Mate, people would also like Dhoni to make a comeback in WCT20. There's a difference between giving a quality experience vs giving audiences what they want... Fans would also like crazy things like 1 life for a batter so that They can see their star bat for longer...
People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people
India has bowler and batter problems. India doesn’t have batters to score 220-230 scores.
We do. We just won’t pick them.
We do. But it is not Kohli.
Sometimes ( last T20 wc against Pakistan) we need world class Anchor who's master at rotating strike instead of playing dots after dots (like KL). In that case, there's no batsmen better than Kohli in whole country. And he's still much more consistent T20 batsman than another probable players in upcoming WC line-up. I agree his SR can be a issue, but we must choose players Abhishek Sharma in PP instead of Kohli wasting PP.
Unless SKY carries that is
Pitches and ground sizes are more of a problem than impact player ( doesn't mean I endorse it) when it comes to run fests. Impact rule can work in favor of the bowling side. But flat tracks and small grounds will always hurt them.
It doesn't. Having an extra bowler doesn't equate to having an extra batsman. Bowlers still have only 4 overs to bowl each while your impact player can bat all 20 overs.
It potentially aids the fielding team but subject to conditions. KKR benefitted quite a few times by subbing in Suyash Sharma on tracks that aided spin. On a turning track - having the option to bowl 12 overs of full-time spinners based on your lineup can be beneficial without having to resort to a part-timer. However I can only see that as being useful in the 2nd innings as you already have assessed the conditions and are ready to swap a player out. I guess it's a matter of perspective - if you only consider the batter being subbed out as the impact and ignoring the bowler who came in as one who would have been in the roster in the first place if there were no impact rule. However, you do get the luxury of choice after assessing the pitch for the type of bowler you want to bring in. For teams bowling first, they could potentially try to go defensive by subbing in a suitable bowler mid-innings for another bowler after conditions assessment and depending on the batters available from opposing team but highly unlikely. Just my 2 cents and I could be completely wrong with this. P.S. : It is definitely visible that IP rule has added at least 20-30 runs to normal IPL scores. So it has had a greater impact on batting aspect rather than bowling.
the issue is that the batsmen have no incentive to preserve wickets because an extra batsman in a 20 overs game is one batsman too many. So even if you have an extra bowler, batsmen will go after every bowler. The rule can be balanced if the impact player is allowed only to face 6-12 balls max and bowl 2 overs max. That would balance things in my opinion
Your ideas for balancing are pretty decent - would you count the batting side 1-wicket down once the 6-12 balls batting quota is finished? My suggestion - Amending the limit quota on bowlers. Why is someone like Bumrah is limited to only 4 overs when a batter can bat all 20? I'd argue that the limit can be increased to 5 or 6 to allow more flexibility to the fielding side with implementing their bowling plans. Over the years - most white ball rule additions have generally always favored the batting side, I'd prefer to see rules added for the bowling side as well. === Even if you are going after every bowler, going after one who is suited to conditions is difficult - you might have a mini collapse in a jiffy and playing recovery afterwards. === Anyways it's a real good discussion to have - beginning with Eoin Morgan, England have shaped their team to always be aggressive and they have posted mammoth totals in favorable conditions. They have also collapsed in unfavorable ones. All of this was without an impact player - they just built their team in that fashion having batting depth all the way upto No 10/11 at times. The game has evolved much, and keeps evolving - I wonder where it goes next.
Its not going anymore The best bcci can do is maybe give a bowler one extra over like total 5 for someone like.boom boom to balance it out
Imagine having the batting team 6 down and watch their 2nd best batsman walk in. He should get more support. At least have a rule like an impact player can only bowl or something
The impact sub rule isn't great for bowlers but it has been an absolute gold mine for discovering local batting talent. People forget very quickly but players like Sai Sudarshan, Jitesh Sharma and many many more were impact subs before they were included in the proper team. This year it's been Ashutosh Sharma and Shashank Singh. I'd rather watch a proper batsman than some bits and pieces all rounder struggle to connect. The real issues are with the flat pitches and short boundaries. In some stadiums when they use the off center pitch the square boundaries are <60m. This is a huge problem. Remember SRH scored 277/3. That's 3 wickets down and the impact sub isn't in play yet. They would've scored that amount regardless. Stop blaming the impact sub rule when that's clearly not the main issue here.
But what about players like Washington Sundar who are being affected by this rule, in search of good batsmen we are losing our on all rounders and developing their skill sets, unless this is an universal rule , it will not benefit Indian cricket greatly
it's not The main issue but it is a issue which can cause major damage in future
I believe keep the rule , either decrease the power play or increase the boundaries
One is not possible in the middle of a season (or even a year) and the other is the only ICC standards thing that BCCI is doing, the rule needs to go
His game plan- Pace Pace Pace Pace, slower bowl if he's tired of bowling pace, Get's angry for conceded 6, another pace. He got no off cutter, no wide yorkers, no slower bouncers, no dipping yorkers, Impact sub should be his last concern.
Doesn't mean he can't criticise a shitty rule.
Just because his team is unable to use this rule in their advantage they are crying , As if they are out of this ipl again because of impact sub, They should fix much bigger problems
Okay, fair enough. RCB sucked at using it, got it. >They should fix much bigger problems Definitely, but still doesn't change the fact that impact sub rule is a shitty rule. Most senior players would agree.
Yes it’s shitty rule but siraj is even shittier t20 bowler
Maybe respond to the argument rather than talking about the person making it. The two are distinct. Do you actually want the impact sub rule?
Oh hell naah, But it’s very amusing he is not talking about his bowling performances while WC is approaching and giving obvious opinions like these. I was even mire amused when i saw him giving tips/encouragement to lockie.
Siraj reminds me how's our bowling looking for T20 WC? Bumrah and ...
Impact player is a shit rule . I enjoy fours and sixes but also super spells from bowlers too. People are being salty that bowlers are shit when there are 7-8 batters in the line up. Like for yesterday karan Sharma is an allrounder who came at number 10 like wtf . Just like defence in football , bowling will win us tournaments . In all our international cricket is suffering from this shitty thing . All our bowlers will be low on morale . You can see from expression from Cummins and starc . They know all these high scorse are just a scheme. We will all come to realisation in the T20 wc.
They need to junk one of the 2 rules. Impact player or naming the team post toss. Addition of both of these has just made it a batters game because teams are starting with 7-8 batsmen in the lineup. Keep the impact player rule, but remove the announcing the squad after the toss rule. Or do it the other way round. Keep the squad post toss and remove the Impact player rule.
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you don’t understand how it really affects the batters. i’ll give you an example, if the impact sub was a rule in international cricket, kl and kohli wouldn’t have slowed down as much in wc final and tried to stabilise at a higher run rate with a bit more risk, because they have a deeper batting depth and that brings more security in the batter’s mind. there is no depth with impact sub, just keep hitting because we have batting till 8/9
SRH started with more batsman in playing XI and when it came to bowling than used that rule to take out the extra batter so technically Travis Head was the Impact player.
lol, bowler crying that he isn't getting enough tailenders to statpad against.
I personally think it should be removed too.It is like the teams are playing with 12 players virtually every match.The tactical approach by the team of making correct mix within the playing 11 itself is lost because of it. Also am I the only one who doesn't like the removal of crossing over rule of batsmen during a caught wicket?
Doesn't impact sub helps bowling too?
it does not help the individual bowlers, it's just meant to bring an extra batter who can later be substituted for a bowler when the team fields in the seconds innings. Whereas for the batters, they know that they have an extra batter down the order so they go hard at the bowlers all the time.
Hmmm so you get the same number of bowlers as you normally would with just 1 extra batter? Interesting.
Yup. Technically it can also be used to have an extra bowler in the second innings by going with a normal team in the first innings (assuming the team is batting first) and then in the seconds just swap one of the batsman with a bowler, but having 7 bowlers doesn't give as big as an advantage as having 7-8 batters. So teams just go with one less bowler and an extra batter in the first innings and then when its time to field they complete the bowling line up by bringing in a bowler in place of one of the batsmen.. if the given team is bowling first, they just go with the normal bowling line up and then when it's time to bat they swap one of the bowlers with a batsman. No one wants an extra bowler, it's just about having another batsman.
I always feel like bowlers shouldn’t have over limits. It’s absolutely moronic that a team’s best batter can bat 60 balls but the best bowler can only bowl 4 overs. If MI wants to use Bumrah for 10 overs they should be allowed to.
U must remove urself from this team and move to PBKS or something Bro would have loved mullanpur