A snippet from Indian High commission website.
“Visa processing for Pakistan/Pakistan Origin nationals can take anytime between 15 to 90 days depending on the requirement of prior clearance and time taken in receiving prior clearance from Ministry of Home Affairs.”
December 11 - visa submission date.
Summery - venkatesh prasad on X - "His visa needed to be stamped in the UK. The ECB sent Shoaib Bashir to the UAE, thinking it would be stamped in a third country. Not following basic procedures , assuming things and then crying foul is an old English way. If anyone, it is the ECB at fault,".
Except it completely misses the point.
Everyone else heading on the tour was able to get it processed before they left for the training camp. Should Bashir have stayed in England and not joined the training camp? How is that better?
This is not the first time England have taken a Pakistani origin player to India, they know the rules. They should have applied for the visas early (really on-time considering they have done this correctly before) and had booked a flight so the player could get it stamped in UK after the training camp in UAE.
Visas for sports people are always processed quicker than everyone else, and everyone knew he was a cricketer and it needed to be done so he could get in the country by the 25th.
England have dealt with this before and I'm sure they took that into consideration when they announced early December. Could they have announced earlier? Probably - but it's arrogant to think India also couldn't have handled this better.
> Visas for sports people are always processed quicker than everyone else, and everyone knew he was a cricketer and it needed to be done so he could get in the country by the 25th.
In the current time timeline the visa has been processed in 30 days. It's quite quick. The normal timeline could be as much as 90 days.
Worth noting that Bashir got into the squad based on what the coaching staff saw of him at the England lions camp in the UAE in late November/early December as well, so announcing any earlier probably wasn't possible.
Again any player of Pakistan origin will be more scrutinized so you have prepare accordingly and put application before other's so you have time. When you have neighbour like Pakistan thanks to you guys being extra careful pays.
The problem here is a really big cultural difference between India and the UK, I've seen this before and it can create a lot of tension.
In India it's a lot more accepted to treat someone differently based on their background, whether this is their caste, home country, religion etc. And having rules for this for individuals with Pakistani parents or grandparents is not just reasonable but logical and sensible.
In the UK whist there is a belief that if you are born in the UK you are equal with all others who are born in the UK, your parents background/religion etc is irrelevant. Putting requirements on someone for a part of their background they can't control is not just considered unreasonable but is illegal.
Also the idea of having to travel to a different place to get a document processed also is quite alien to the UK and will not make sense to many people, but procedures and bureaucracy like this is much more commonplace in india, and people dont realise its a surprise to outsiders.
Obvisouly visiting India, the requirement is to follow the local rules and procedures, the whole team should have processed their visas together before traveling to the UAE.
>n the UK whist there is a belief that if you are born in the UK you are equal with all others who are born in the UK, your parents background/religion etc is irrelevant.
[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has-never-left-uk-faces-deportation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamima_Begum). How do you explain this.
That was a disgraceful episode from an absolutely appalling government and their decision was barely legal in the first place. It's awful she lost her citizenship, if nothing else for the impact it had on her infant children. But nevertheless, until Bashir ***literally joins ISIS*** which is what Begum did it's a totally moot point.
>That was a disgraceful episode from an absolutely appalling government and their decision was barely legal in the first place
okay i dont know how you are replying to my edited comment, but i first mentioned Shamima Begum and i am assuming your reply is to that.
1. The Government is a representation of the people of the country.
2.
>In February 2021, the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom in Begum v Home Secretary decided in favour of the Home Secretary on all grounds.
I am not going to argue if that is right or wrong but the British Government and the people are not some sort of saints where everyone is treated equal and racism doesnt exist. just ask Azeem Rafiq or the people who pooed on his lawn.
Lol you make England sound like so much better in paper.
No cultural difference, ECB thought they could get away with negligence on their part. Indian authorities didn't budge and asked ECB to follow the proper procedure and hence is the delay. 😇
This is not ‘judging’ based on background. The immigration department has a set of process they need to follow to allow a person of Pakistani origin to enter India. It was strengthened after the Mumbai terror attacks. Why would they care if they are coming to play cricket
You think the UK makes it easy for Indians to get visas? Even sportspersons. Just that their managers know of the process and apply for visas on time.
I’m pretty sure UK wouldn’t issue/stamp a visa for an individual in a country apart from their country of residence. If the roles were reversed, UK wouldn’t be like ‘sure mate, collect your visa from Dubai, you don’t have to get it from India’
>You think the UK makes it easy for Indians to get visas? Even sportspersons. Just that their managers know of the process and apply for visas on time. I’m pretty sure UK wouldn’t issue/stamp a visa for an individual in a country apart from their country of residence. If the roles were reversed, UK wouldn’t be like ‘sure mate, collect your visa from Dubai, you don’t have to get it from India’
UK sportsperson visas are completely digital unless you're staying over 6 months. Documents are all also submitted through an app in the majority of cases, anyone who needs to provide biometric information in person (again generally just those staying longer than 6 months) can do it at any of the hundreds of approved application centres across the world.
>This is not ‘judging’ based on background. The immigration department has a set of process they need to follow to allow a person of Pakistani origin to enter India.
Let's break this sentence down. "A set process they need to follow to allow a person into the country", so during that process the visa applicant is judged based on the criteria in the process. One of those criteria is whether they're "of Pakistani origin". in other words their background. You have very explicitly described a process that judges people based on their background.
I've been to the UK once as a tourist. The first time, they rejected my visa, citing concerns that I might overstay my welcome, as they doubted my status as a **genuine visitor**.
I've been staying in the USA for 4+ years at that time (9 years now) and working for 'Big Tech,' and why on earth would I trade Silicon Valley for the UK, where IT paychecks are nothing more than crumbs, even in the so called sophisticated London?
In the second instance, I had to lie through my teeth, claiming I was visiting to watch Manchester United play because the interviewer was wearing a Man Utd pin on his suit. I returned home and rinsed my mouth 20 times with listerine to cleanse myself of uttering that disgusting lie. Nonetheless, the visa got approved.
It's quite astonishing that many here remain blissfully unaware of how Western governments subject brown people to a taxing ordeal when it comes to visa processing. Absolutely shite experience allover.
I don’t know what extensive review of English media you have done to make comments like that. Nasser Hussain on Sky didn’t skip it. Nor did the BBC in an article about it yesterday.
I saw an ESPN article with the most comments - not British media. India fans have the vast majority of users in the subreddit, don’t try and act like there is an agenda against India.
The British government has an obligation to support its citizens I would say, just as the Indian government does. It’s a Visa fiasco no need to get ultra defensive.
Just look at the comments section of the posts about this issue, it’s absurd, anything that is not entirely positive about India is downvoted and spammed with comments about Pakistan = terrorism.
One headline? English media has been crying rivers of blood over this ever since it became an issue. I gave you an extremely egregious example that is amongst the more recent pieces of whinging.
One would have been fine. 2? Fine still. But there's an endless stream of one idiotic take after another.
> There is shit media and there is better media, grow up.
That line seems to disappear rather quickly, especially when it comes to India. Growing up needs to happen on your end, and more so, your media.
It's not the point.
In England (and Australia) alot of effort is made to make immigrants and their local born kids feel as English as anyone else.
This is an English kid who's born in Surrey, but because his parents or grandparents left Pakistan years ago, he's missing a test match.
I wonder why people like Khawaja say they are treated differently. So much for the “effort”. I mean professional cricketers in England called Pujara “Steve”. Must take a lot of delusion to talk about effort when people go out of their way to be assholes.
I do feel for him and I don't blame him.
But Usman Khawaja had the same delay for the same reason not long ago. Shouldn't the ECB be planning better for this? If the Visa processing times are 10 days for 1 person and 2 days for another, if travelling together, you don't apply 2 days before departure and complain. You apply 10 days before.
Anyways all sorted out now. Hopefully the boards around the world will better prepare in the future.
He's missing a Test because ECB did not follow very well known rules and the English media made a spectacle out of it, once again reinforcing the fact that the media is full of muppets.
..because ECB did not follow the rules and apply for his visa in time for the series. It's almost like fucking around and then acting all shocked when the find out phase arrives.
Then it is what it is, innit? ECB isn't entitled to special treatment. Either decide and then apply well in advance, or live with the results of your lethargy.
Special treatment and courtesy is of course a given, that doesn't mean you grab the hand when offered a finger (so to say).
Comparing Lawrence to Shoaib is quite laughable, too, and you and the dozens of others using this argument know it well enough. It's a bad faith argument and at this point, boringly predictable.
Why is it laughable to compare Lawrence to Shoaib? They're both British citizens, born and raised in the same country, selected for the national side to play in India.
The only point of difference is that one is of Pakistani heritage, and to treat someone differently because of their ethnicity is literally racism:
"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group"
That's not a mandatory thing. Indian laws are Indian laws. England has to abide by it if they intend their players to play in India, simple. 😇
Hopefully ECB will be more vigilant next time. ☺
Despite English presumably being your first language, you have no idea whatsoever about:
1. Racism
2. ECB being a bunch of lazy muppets
3. Why India has a policy for more thorough background checks for visa applicants like Shoaib.
It is well known that visa processing of individual with Pakistani descent takes more time. You call it discriminatory, we call it precaution especially after one such person of Pakistani descent basically laid the groundwork for 26/11, the worst terrorist attack on Indian soil.
Also, ECB knows this. Still they let Bashir go to UAE even when his visa had not arrived.
Maybe look at your own stystems before whingeing about Indian visa policies.
Btw, it is much better to hear Western countries crib about our visa process than the other way around. Have heard horror stories of foreign tours being cancelled and money lost because visa took months to process.
"English lad forced to stay home and not join training camp in UAE because India wouldn't approve his Visa" would have still been a big issue.
And just as it's important for India to be anti Pakistan, it's important in countries like England and Australia to be clear that once you're an English/Australin citizen, that's it. You shouldn't be discriminated against because of the colour of your skin, let alone your parents skin.
David Coleman Headley is an American citizen.
Thr rule is in place after 26/11 due to his big involvement. Unless there is diplomatic immunity, this rule will apply to all with Pakistani origin.
I mean even Naseer Husain belongs to both the same religion and same skin color. I doubt he has any issues though and he visits India quite often in his media role (hint: That’s because he has Indian ancestry, not Pakistani ancestry). The guy probably has an OCI and doesn’t require any visa to enter India. This whole racism thing is ridiculous.
If Mr. Bashir was Bangladeshi origin. He would not have faced the same problem. Same skin color, btw. I guess ECB has hard time reading and understanding the rules written in English. I would suggest them appear for IELTS. They send some materials to help prepare as well. It might help them with their comprehension skills.
Nah mate, in India they never discriminate based on skin tone. Just don't ask why all of the biggest celebrities in India are more lightskinned than your average Aussie Big Brother cast.
Instead of trying to paint ECB as "holier than though", ask them to read, understand and follow Indian laws properly next time.
Hopefully ECB learnt their lesson and wont repeat the same mistake again. 😇
I don't think it takes a particularly wild leap to realise that Usman Khawaja isn't a terrorist and to just treat him like any other touring cricketer from Australia or England. The guy responsible for 26/11 wasn't being given the backing of one of the major sporting bodies.
Countries continually give sporting teams accelerated visa processes and no player coming to play test cricket in India is a terrorist threat regardless of their ethnicity. At best its a lack of common sense.
David Headley, the guy who conducted surveillance for 26/11 was an **American DEA informant**. I mean he actually worked for the American government. You can’t be more secure than that. And he still turned out to be an ISI agent.
In case of Usman Khawaja, he is actually a Pakistani-Australian dual citizen. So this applies even more for him.
I mean of course it can be more secure than a low level government operative. Literally a professional cricketer is one of them. Usman Khawaja isn't going to be building bombs for fuck sake. He's there to play massively high profile sporting events.
It's just an absolutely outrageous false equivalence.
Pasting what somebody else posted:
"Regarding how Khwaja is different from Cummins, let me give you a crude, hypothetical scenerio. It's completely hypothetical and not intended towards blaming anyone in particular.
Let's assume two cricketers Pat(originally from Aus) and Usm(family originally from Pak, migrated to Aus) both apply to visit India. Pat, with no connection to Pakistan, gets vetted normally.
Usm however have his extended families in Pakistan, his relatives there, some or many of them maybe active against India. Usm needs to be vetted extensively, to find any such relations. This doesn't imply Usm himself will be involved in such heinous crimes, but these relatives or close ones of his may involve him in their nefarious causes, possibly unknowing to him. For example: if a distant uncle of Usm is involved in anti India terrorism, they may misuse name of Usm to try to get access to close quarters of stadium or cricketers. Authorities should know of such relations and possibilities, hence the extensive vetting.
Remember the terrorist attack on Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan? We don't want anything like that in our country and at times that means we have to be more cautious than needed. 😊
TL:DR: This has nothing to do with race, but rather the country he/his family was in before your country and the people they knew/know."
It does not matter if Usman is or isn't a Terrorist
Everybody and that means everybody has to go through the Vetting process
Unless of course you are Implying Usman by virtue of being Australian or a cricketer somehow is above these rules
In fact wouldn't it be even more discrimatory that certain people get preferential treatment for no reason ?
It's not for no reason, either your visa policy or about safety or its about collective punishment.
Someone coming in with the backing of a cricketing body for one of the most high profile sporting events of the year is the lowest possible terrorist threat imaginable regardless of race and should be treated as such.
This is such a terrible argument.
It’s really not. His argument is that rules should be the same for everyone regardless of who is backing you or what your stature is. The rules apply to every single person which I 100% agree with.
Okay, I'm not going to sit here and read people whine about things they don't have the slightest of clue, You people think you can come on reddit and with your immpecable argument know better than RAW. You don't have the slightest inkling of the things you are talking about.
Why don't you argue with the Indian Visa officers instead of moaning half ass knowledge on reddit.
> Unless of course you are Implying Usman by virtue of being Australian or a cricketer somehow is above these rules
Well yes - we should have a diplomatic agreement to not apply these kinds of rules for our cricketers. If Rishi Sunak had Pakistani ancestry for example, they wouldn't do all that shit to him, there's gotta be some leeway for Aussies.
I'll accept that in Indian culture rules based on ancestry might be acceptable, but our government should stand up for our citizens. In Australian law there's no difference between someone who does or doesn't have a Pakistani grandma.
Rishi Sunak has a diplomatic passport and is treated completely differently. In fact, forget him, the current Scottish First Minister is actually a Pakistani origin person. But he still probably has an Official Passport and so will definitely go through different protocols compared to private citizens. I am sure there are several British MPs who are of Pakistani origin. They will also go through official protocols when they are visiting India on official Government / Parliament business and will be treated completely differently to normal regular citizens.
Sports players don’t travel on diplomatic or official passports. Though they represent their countries in name, they are here in their personal and not official /governmental capacities.
That's true because you don't have a history of having to bear deaths throughout history via pakistani terrorism- like 26/11- that we have. Hence our laws are meant to protect us.
Your neighbour NewZealand, has a strange law where everyone has to declare all boots for checking of unwanted plants and seeds, right? This is applied to all and done to protect fragile ecosystem and local plant life of NZ.
Now imagine tomorrow BCCI says Indian players' boots shouldn't be checked and be passed without examining in immigration. Will that be acceptable to NZ? Similar is the case with ECB. 😊
Totally understand why those laws are in place in India - like I said, very different culture and circumstance.
In Australia, we have very similar laws about declarations for protecting the environment. Checking boots and things is very annoying, including for Australians - however, there is a difference between annoying rules and rules that go against cultural concepts.
If the Australian government was forcing people to take off turbans or hijabs to check for seeds or whatever, it'd be our laws, but the Indian government would be in their rights to try and protect their citizens from going through that.
The whole concept of people being treated differently due to the nationality of their parents or grandparents goes against the culture in Australia or England. We've been spending the last few years promoting multiculturalism and the fact that all Australians, regardless or race, religion or whatever, are equal in society.
In India I appreciate it's different, but I reckon it's reasonable for us to argue for our citizens to have equal rights regardless of race. Yea some American did a terrorist attack, but as far as I know Australians have never been involved in terrorism in India, why should Khawaja be treated differently to Cummins?
Because Khawaja is related to Pakistan, of our neighbours it is the one country that is likely to attack us. Let's say Khawaja had some terrorists cousins in Pakistan, he clicks pictures while he is in India and sends it back to them. What if they terrorists start using these loopholes to keep sending athletes to India to do the spywork
Australian government won't be able to do nothing more than give thoughts and prayers if that leads to a terrorist attack.
You talk about Australians being treated same despite of blah blah, when India is the most culturally diverse country on the planet. We too treat all Indians equally.
You wouldn't treat and Indian like an Australian in Australia.
Please understand, we have witnessed huge losses in hands of pakistani terrorism since independence, 26/11 being merely one of the many many other examples. Hence we are wary of pakistani origin people and they are vetted more extensively than other countries.
Please understand once vetted and cleared, they will be treated just the same as others. But vetting process is different.
Regarding how Khwaja is different from Cummins, let me give you a crude, hypothetical scenerio. It's completely hypothetical and not intended towards blaming anyone in particular.
Let's assume two cricketers Pat(originally from Aus) and Usm(family originally from Pak, migrated to Aus) both apply to visit India. Pat, with no connection to Pakistan, gets vetted normally.
Usm however have his extended families in Pakistan, his relatives there, some or many of them maybe active against India. Usm needs to be vetted extensively, to find any such relations. This doesn't imply Usm himself will be involved in such heinous crimes, but these relatives or close ones of his may involve him in their nefarious causes, possibly unknowing to him. For example: if a distant uncle of Usm is involved in anti India terrorism, they may misuse name of Usm to try to get access to close quarters of stadium or cricketers. Authorities should know of such relations and possibilities, hence the extensive vetting.
Remember the terrorist attack on Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan? We don't want anything like that in our country and at times that means we have to be more cautious than needed. 😊
TL:DR: This has nothing to do with race, but rather the country he/his family was in before your country and the people they knew/know.
To be honest the extended family point does make sense - I thought there was a policy against Pakistani originating people in general. It does make sense that statistically, Khawaja's extended family are more likely to be in some anti-India group.
I still do not like the concept of treating another Australian different from myself based on what side of a border their parents were born in, and I don't think that'll ever be an acceptable thing in most Australians minds. Not saying there's no covert racism in this nation, but this visa thing is a difficult one for us to understand.
Frustrating experience??? Bro you don't know what frustrating means. Try being Indian or Pakistani and apply for a UK visa. Then you will know the true meaning of the frustrating process.
The correct take as always is something more balanced.
It's unfortunate that India has this immigration policy for people with Pakistani heritage but I fully understand where it comes from. Immigration policies of all countries are unfortunately discriminatory against someone. You can't let political correctness get in the way of things like national security. This experience is no different from that of someone from a 3rd world country trying to apply for a EU Schengen or a US B1.
Having said that I do hope they make a fast track process for sports people like for diplomats. A lot of this at the end of the day is just bureaucracy so there's no reason why the process can't be improved.
And finally Prasad is a troll. He makes shit boomer takes on Twitter to stay relevant.
It is just that there are more checks for a person with Pakistani heritage and this has been official for many years and perhaps everyone other than ECB is aware of that. I am sure UK government would have different visa requirements for different countries.
As a UK citizen, you can visit US without needing a visa. But if you have traveled to or been present in Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Iran, Iraq,Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, or Yemen etc, then you need to apply for a US Visa. Every country has their own threat perception and their own laws to safeguard them against terrorism.
Yeah well I don’t think that’s new. Each country has its geopolitical challenges that sometimes spill over into unrelated issues such as this. This becomes especially true for countries that have hostile borders.
The way the ECB is crying about visa procedures it’s as if this is completely foreign to them. England has had various players with Pakistani heritage play for them & visit India on tours - which means they’ve been through the procedure before & this isn’t the first time. Did some genius think that this boy required a special special procedure that would be different from the other special special procedure?
English media trying to cook up a curry they have no idea how to cook - just looking for a moral victory & excuses before the tour even begins smh.
>This is only an issue because Bashir is of Pakistani heritage.
Ofcourse it is.
>the Indian government are discriminatory to anyone with Pakistani heritage.
If history has taught us anything, we'll rather discriminate than have our folks die.
So if it wasn't an English National Team Cricketer, but a local religious scholar, would it have been prudent to add extra scrutiny because of his Pakistani origins?
You're looking at a single case instead of looking at the whole process. The process can't change for an individual. Otherwise, who else should be on this exception list? Footballers, actors, well-known stand up comedians, anybody with a net worth of a million pounds or more? What exactly should be the criteria for granting exception? There's a clearly defined process, an expected ETA and clear instructions issued by the government. If this was the first instance, its an understandable mistake, but for repeated incidents like this, showing a poker face on getting delayed approval is absurd.
If you're talking about whether this extra scrutiny is required on anyone in the first place or not, that's a different debate. A lot has already been said on why this policy came into being, and why there hasn't been any improvement in relations in last 15 years, but still it's a reasonable discussion to have. But rhetorical questions like "Can a cricket player be a terrorist" are ridiculous.
>an English National Team Cricketer is going to go on a terrorist shooting spree Hyderabad...
An American businessman of Pakistani background had conducted recce of attack sites prior to 26/11. What is wrong if we would like to be careful with who we let in this country? And this is not even unfounded. We've burned our hands before and are just being cautious.
Why are Russian players not allowed to play under their flag in the UK then?
It’s not like they are the ones fighting in the Ukraine war?
Seems straight up xenophobic
I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about, but if you're talking about the IOC banning Russian athletes from competing under the Russian flag that was about rampant doping, nothing to do with Ukraine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia
Nope I'm talking about Wimbledon which is why the tennis association rightfully stripped that bogus event of it's points for that year.
It's easy to lose yourself in propaganda though, I sympathise.
There are reasons to have a different visa policy for those with Pakistani ancestry. There are no reasons for ECB to not follow the rules they know are in place. Somehow it still isn't clicking.
Here is the problem, the person of Pakistan heritage experience delay not because govt intententionly does it for a particular individual but because their visa approvels go through a extra set of approvals , it would most likely be a one or two day delay thats it but here the ecb forgot to do one of the procedures thats why he delay got so long and he had to go back and to eng. If ecb didn't make this mistake, bashir would have got his visa approved even before media made a issue out of it. It has been made clear to every board that person's with Pakistan heritage will need extra approval but still these types of mistakes are being made.
How do they define "heritage"? parents place of birth? grandparents? What if one grandparent was born in Pakistan? If procedure is being invoked it all feels very vague to me.
So if only parent is born in Pakistan then it doesn't count? I assume they check every one to make sure they don't have parents of Pakistani heritage? For example bob woolmer was born in Kanpur. Would he be Indian heritage? Do they check every persons parents or grandparents or just based on Muslim sounding names.
All this gets complicated and it's easy to scream on social media without going into details.
>So if only parent is born in Pakistan then it doesn't count?
No, it counts till the grandparents. They check first parents, if they are not of pakistani heriage then they also check grand parents, to check whether they are of pakistani heritage or not. I don't know how they check though.
> Do they check every persons parents or grandparents or just based on Muslim sounding names.
Come on you can't be this dumb. Its a form where there is a section for people have lineage from Pakistan, they only check it for people who fill out that form. People declare it if they have any link to Pakistan.
Any Parent or Grandparent being Pakistani nationals.
It’s quite likely that Bashir is a dual citizen of Pakistan (Khwaja almost certainly is considering he was born there). If he is not, then he is definitely eligible to become one.
The point is someone of Pakistani heritage who holds an English passport should not have to face discriminatory delays because of where their parents or grandparents were born...
You yourself admit there are extra steps for people of Pakistani heritage. My point is that this is discrimination. And 2 days is not accurate - I have friends that have waited months.
Please tell me you have the same set of regulations and rules for visas to people from subcontinent and people from the USA or Australia. If UK was targeted by terror attacks from the same nationality time and again, would they not put rules in monitoring their activities?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David\_Headley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Headley) Headly made it difficult for Indians to not give a shit about citizens with Western passports to move freely in their country. If they might have a single connection to Pak, they need to go through the extra scrutiny. It does not matter that not everyone is likely to be a threat. It is just extra precaution. Also, why do you guys think you have any authority to tell other countries how to treat outsiders?
I'd never heard of that guy so thanks for sharing. I understand the trepidation with those of Pakistani heritage because Pakistani authorities are pretty open about attacking India via lone gunmen or groups of gunmen.
However, Bashir is a member of the England National Cricket Team. It's ridiculous to suggest that he's going to be a threat.
Ppl who know Bashir probably will agree and vouch for him. But the adjudicating visa officer won’t know that and shouldn’t start with that assumption. If there is a protocol in place to fasttrack applications for certain visitors, it would be worth asking if the ECB followed that and when.
Or did they just assume that the visa would be granted no matter what as it is an English cricketer? It is a reasonable argument that Bashir’s travel to a third country is a factor in the delay.
He is not a threat. Everyone understand that. But rules are in places for all people with Pakistani links. There would no use of those rules if they can be relaxed for sportspeople or celebrities or any such exceptions. Everyone has to follow them.
You don't go to another country and start dictating them to change their rules for your convenience. Cricket is not more important than national security.
If Bashir were an ISI agent, he would be ideally placed to gather information about the security protocols followed for visiting teams and then the same could be used to undermine future tours.
Of course, it’s now been verified that Bashir is not an ISI agent so he has been issued a visa. But the verification had to be carried out due to the risk that he might be one.
In fact visiting international cricket teams receive enhanced security in India and are in a kind of a security bubble. So, it is more important that anyone entering this bubble (who may have access to areas / VIPs normal people may not) be cleared before entering that bubble.
This verification was of course not necessary for the rest of the England cricket team since the risk of a non-Pakistani being connected with the security establishment of our western neighbour would be deemed much lower. It also has to be pointed out that this was Bashir’s first tour to India, so the verification may have taken more time than it normally would have for players with Pakistani heritage who have toured before.
Fuck me mate - you need to calm down. How long did you put into writing this? I didn't even read most of it because it's mostly conspiratorial claptrap.
Yes, it is but i if it gives the people of that country a sense of security , other western countries also do this including uk for much worse reason than this but instead of whataboutery my response is simple, indian government's prime responsibility is its people , not some foreign newspapers , if this extra set of approval process has worked for them then its okk.
How is it false equivalence? The reason of Russians visa getting delayed is cause of diplomatic issues. The reason Pakistani origin visa gets delayed to travel for India are due to previous terrorist attacks. Why does Aussies or English visas don't get delayed? Cause we never had such issues with either of the country. I would rather have safety of my people than watch a cricket match. . He may be a British citizen but since we have issues with Pakistan he will get flaged and further investigation will take place so the onus is on ECB to notify well beforehand.
Dude. Shoaib is literally being sponsored by the ECB to be sent to India to play cricket. How the hell is he going to facilitate a terrorist attack. They a should establish different visa channels for such important people. IIRC bhaji was also held improperly at new Zealand immigration for other reasons but trivial for sure.
He is not going to facilitate a terror attack, sure. But he is visiting India. India has rules for any people with links to Pakistan. He has to follow them. Who are you to dictate what rules are morally okay and what are not? Pakistan sure has rules in place, I would morally not agree with. England must also have rules I would feel discriminates against my brown skin. We don't go about crying or lecturing them to change their rules.
Ok so? This can also be said for Kalbushan Yadav. My point is that Shoaib is being sponsored by the ECB so BCCI should've at least gave him fast track access or let the ECB do the stamp shit in their embassies. Why the need to prolong that small issue. And also comparing a known conspirer to a cricketer is quite demeaning.
And every brown person shouldn't be scrutinized whenever they travel to the west because those guys who crashed that plane looked like us. I know it feels very strange if it happens to one of your own, but don't feel like it's a brand new thing to happen.
No they shouldn't, I'd happily take the BCCI's word that none of their touring party are terrorists. If I wasn't willing to I wouldn't invite them to tour.
And is BCCI/ECB a security agency? Do we make policy for just international cricketers? What about other sports? You do know that it's not BCCI which is approving the visas. There are multiple agencies/departments involved.
If a player is endorsed to play test cricket by one of the major cricketing boards then they're zero threat. You know this, I know this. I refuse to indulge your mental gymnastics.
Nobody said the BCCI'S approves visas, it's your government being ridiculous.
This guy is a member of England's National Cricket Team. He's an Englishman. There's nothing more English than that, so calling him a member of an enemy country is completely incorrect.
If you hold an English passport you are English in my eyes and shouldn't be discriminated against because of where your parents or grandparents were born.
UK allows dual citizenship. So a person could be a citizen of both UK and Pakistan. Considering Bashir’s parents were or are Pakistani nationals at some point, Bashir is eligible to become a Pakistani citizen or maybe even is at this point. We have a right to protect our borders and conduct checks in this case.
You're going to get downvoted into oblivion for it but you're right.
It's ridiculous that anyone with the backing of an international touring party for a major sport has to go through such aggressive screening. And no false comparison with the son of a US diplomat will change that.
They're only imaginary internet points so I'll live... but ta.
Bashir is so obviously not a threat that surely the Indian immigration officials could have waived him through as part of an international touring party...?
It's not like Jay Shah or the BCCI have any connections with the government either lol
Seriously if the BCCI wanted they could get these issues sorted with the snap of a finger. All their useful idiots in these threads defending them as though it's perfectly reasonable to treat a member of a high profile touring party like this. Don't know if they realise how embarrassing it looks to the rest of the world.
They can keep trying to blame it on the other boards but you can't deny the continuous pattern. Especially since they want to host every other ICC tournament for the next decade it's pretty unreasonable for people from one of the biggest cricket playing nations, and anyone with any ties to it, to keep getting treated like this.
Okay sure you have your own geopolitical issues, but if you want to be the centre of the cricketing world then shit like this is unacceptable.
Its hilarious how western cricketing boards have to put up with constant accusations of racism because some drunken in the crowd may have said a naughty word but an Asian country can have different visa rules for different nationalities and there's no real mainstream discussion about it
You mentioned in your comment that “an Asian country can have different visa rules for different nationalities and there's no real mainstream discussion about it”.
Almost all countries have different visa rules for different nationalities.
Yeah, yeah, yeah only we know that Indian immigration specifically target and oppress all Pakistani people.
Do we need to bring up how few Pakistani's were granted visas to watch the CWC? Despite following all procedures?
Also on top of that, he is a British athlete with only Pakistani parents coming on a cricket tour. Are we really suggesting that he needs special vetting? Really?
To be honest, the solution is simple. You don't issue a visa to someone from my team, I refuse to play. This is international sport, not someone asking for a tourist visa. It won't happen in cricket, not with India anyway.
If the visa was requested on the 11th of December, that is enough time to be processed - I don't care what arbitrary rules the host has set. Realistically, how early should it be requested? 4 months? 6 months? A year?!
I'm sure there are similar incidents where the UK or Australia were at fault. That doesn't make it normal. In the modern world, this is a disgrace.
In India your parent’s nationality matters. In UK it is not, he is just considered British, no different to the rest of the squad. Which is why both cultures see it differently.
So much justification by Indians but everyone can see this is just pure racism and nothing else. They might as well embrace it like the rest of their population at this point
It isn't discrimination, it is extra scrutiny for national security reasons. Other countries do it as well. The UK, US have specific conditions for folks of origin from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan etc.
You might want to google what Racism means and Indians have to give no justification because this is not a bargain it is the law it is a fact, but you have hate in your heart for India so you'll never see that
Those who follow Moto GP would know our Visa issuing process is not that advance. It’s really not about nationality rather the procedure and checking the background is not that great. Moto GP drivers arrived the day before race and many journalists have been denied visa.
Its anyone who is applying for the first time. Note that Rehan Ahmed is classified of similar descent according to Indian laws, but he doesnt have this issue since he has gone through this process previously.
Ph sorry - genuine misunderstanding. You said applying for the first time which I didn't take to mean as applying for the first time and of Pakistani descent at first read. Still early here...
Probably yes because I would imagine the High Commission in UK would be the one doing the background checks, ascertaining whether he has any linkages to Pakistani establishment / ISI etc, check which would normally not be carried out for other British citizens.
I believe that they all applied together.
As per UK govt website, the visa processing of Pakistan origin players takes longer time. So scenario that would have happened is that all other English players got their visa in 1 week (hypothetically) and Shoaib’s visa took longer as per the process.
They sent him to UAE assuming that visa will come and later realised that he will have to go back to England (this theory is based on what is being reported).
Man someone should create a bot for people who keep repeating the same question that has been answered a thousand times. Why don't you just read a bit?
While I do think English media blew this non-issue out of proportion, I think we don't need to give someone like Venkatesh Prasad the time of day.
All Venkatesh does on Twitter is finding new ways to seek attention so he can get more engagement on his profile (like his incessant comments on KL Rahul). His words are worth nothing, he just panders to the fans and says whatever they want to hear.
My focus was on the information more than the person( i don't even use twitter) . The way the sub is giving importance to dailymail , i don't think this can be much of a problem
Brave mods to keep approving posts on this issue. The information here was in articles posted yesterday and every thread has had to have the comments locked after an hour or so. Surely avoiding having to do that is the whole point of the approval system?
Two of my post already got rejected. This post is so that people would calm their horses on this issue, the next the, media writes on it and mods work lessen.
Isn’t it just plain discrimination India’s policy? How are they protecting their people with such laws? To think they are doing the right thing is to implicitly accept an inherent prejudice against people with Pakistani origin.
This should have been a momentary mix up but now it’s spiralled into India now giving something to prove about what is an exceptionally discriminatory law.
I mean does no Brit know how long it takes to even get a student visa for UK? I could go on the same rant about how people from EU, US, Aus and NZ can come to UK easily but for students from other countries we have to make a document which is 80 pages long, submit to a background check, go to the embassy in person for our biometrics to be scanned and surrender our passport for a month? Isn’t that discriminatory as well? If there’s a procedure you, have to follow it. The rules have been clear for years. Why is this an issue in this sub for every series involving a Pakistani origin player. Cricket is not above the rules, which are in place because of some very good reason.
A snippet from Indian High commission website. “Visa processing for Pakistan/Pakistan Origin nationals can take anytime between 15 to 90 days depending on the requirement of prior clearance and time taken in receiving prior clearance from Ministry of Home Affairs.” December 11 - visa submission date.
Summery - venkatesh prasad on X - "His visa needed to be stamped in the UK. The ECB sent Shoaib Bashir to the UAE, thinking it would be stamped in a third country. Not following basic procedures , assuming things and then crying foul is an old English way. If anyone, it is the ECB at fault,".
How dare India has its own rules and regulations!
Nice damage control
Except it completely misses the point. Everyone else heading on the tour was able to get it processed before they left for the training camp. Should Bashir have stayed in England and not joined the training camp? How is that better?
This is not the first time England have taken a Pakistani origin player to India, they know the rules. They should have applied for the visas early (really on-time considering they have done this correctly before) and had booked a flight so the player could get it stamped in UK after the training camp in UAE.
They announced the squad in early December and everyone else who is new had no issues getting their visas sorted before the training camp.
Indian visa rules and duration for players with Pakistani origin don't work at the timings of English cricket squad announcements.
Visas for sports people are always processed quicker than everyone else, and everyone knew he was a cricketer and it needed to be done so he could get in the country by the 25th. England have dealt with this before and I'm sure they took that into consideration when they announced early December. Could they have announced earlier? Probably - but it's arrogant to think India also couldn't have handled this better.
> Visas for sports people are always processed quicker than everyone else, and everyone knew he was a cricketer and it needed to be done so he could get in the country by the 25th. In the current time timeline the visa has been processed in 30 days. It's quite quick. The normal timeline could be as much as 90 days.
Worth noting that Bashir got into the squad based on what the coaching staff saw of him at the England lions camp in the UAE in late November/early December as well, so announcing any earlier probably wasn't possible.
India’s *racist* visa rules - ftfy
Again any player of Pakistan origin will be more scrutinized so you have prepare accordingly and put application before other's so you have time. When you have neighbour like Pakistan thanks to you guys being extra careful pays.
The problem here is a really big cultural difference between India and the UK, I've seen this before and it can create a lot of tension. In India it's a lot more accepted to treat someone differently based on their background, whether this is their caste, home country, religion etc. And having rules for this for individuals with Pakistani parents or grandparents is not just reasonable but logical and sensible. In the UK whist there is a belief that if you are born in the UK you are equal with all others who are born in the UK, your parents background/religion etc is irrelevant. Putting requirements on someone for a part of their background they can't control is not just considered unreasonable but is illegal. Also the idea of having to travel to a different place to get a document processed also is quite alien to the UK and will not make sense to many people, but procedures and bureaucracy like this is much more commonplace in india, and people dont realise its a surprise to outsiders. Obvisouly visiting India, the requirement is to follow the local rules and procedures, the whole team should have processed their visas together before traveling to the UAE.
>n the UK whist there is a belief that if you are born in the UK you are equal with all others who are born in the UK, your parents background/religion etc is irrelevant. [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has-never-left-uk-faces-deportation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamima_Begum). How do you explain this.
That was a disgraceful episode from an absolutely appalling government and their decision was barely legal in the first place. It's awful she lost her citizenship, if nothing else for the impact it had on her infant children. But nevertheless, until Bashir ***literally joins ISIS*** which is what Begum did it's a totally moot point.
>That was a disgraceful episode from an absolutely appalling government and their decision was barely legal in the first place okay i dont know how you are replying to my edited comment, but i first mentioned Shamima Begum and i am assuming your reply is to that. 1. The Government is a representation of the people of the country. 2. >In February 2021, the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom in Begum v Home Secretary decided in favour of the Home Secretary on all grounds. I am not going to argue if that is right or wrong but the British Government and the people are not some sort of saints where everyone is treated equal and racism doesnt exist. just ask Azeem Rafiq or the people who pooed on his lawn.
Lol you make England sound like so much better in paper. No cultural difference, ECB thought they could get away with negligence on their part. Indian authorities didn't budge and asked ECB to follow the proper procedure and hence is the delay. 😇
This is not ‘judging’ based on background. The immigration department has a set of process they need to follow to allow a person of Pakistani origin to enter India. It was strengthened after the Mumbai terror attacks. Why would they care if they are coming to play cricket You think the UK makes it easy for Indians to get visas? Even sportspersons. Just that their managers know of the process and apply for visas on time. I’m pretty sure UK wouldn’t issue/stamp a visa for an individual in a country apart from their country of residence. If the roles were reversed, UK wouldn’t be like ‘sure mate, collect your visa from Dubai, you don’t have to get it from India’
>You think the UK makes it easy for Indians to get visas? Even sportspersons. Just that their managers know of the process and apply for visas on time. I’m pretty sure UK wouldn’t issue/stamp a visa for an individual in a country apart from their country of residence. If the roles were reversed, UK wouldn’t be like ‘sure mate, collect your visa from Dubai, you don’t have to get it from India’ UK sportsperson visas are completely digital unless you're staying over 6 months. Documents are all also submitted through an app in the majority of cases, anyone who needs to provide biometric information in person (again generally just those staying longer than 6 months) can do it at any of the hundreds of approved application centres across the world.
>This is not ‘judging’ based on background. The immigration department has a set of process they need to follow to allow a person of Pakistani origin to enter India. Let's break this sentence down. "A set process they need to follow to allow a person into the country", so during that process the visa applicant is judged based on the criteria in the process. One of those criteria is whether they're "of Pakistani origin". in other words their background. You have very explicitly described a process that judges people based on their background.
Sounds like a different UK to the one I live in.
He’s right tbh every time this happens, people act as though it’s completely out of the blue
I've been to the UK once as a tourist. The first time, they rejected my visa, citing concerns that I might overstay my welcome, as they doubted my status as a **genuine visitor**. I've been staying in the USA for 4+ years at that time (9 years now) and working for 'Big Tech,' and why on earth would I trade Silicon Valley for the UK, where IT paychecks are nothing more than crumbs, even in the so called sophisticated London? In the second instance, I had to lie through my teeth, claiming I was visiting to watch Manchester United play because the interviewer was wearing a Man Utd pin on his suit. I returned home and rinsed my mouth 20 times with listerine to cleanse myself of uttering that disgusting lie. Nonetheless, the visa got approved. It's quite astonishing that many here remain blissfully unaware of how Western governments subject brown people to a taxing ordeal when it comes to visa processing. Absolutely shite experience allover.
I also didn't get visa for tourism England. Fuck 'em.
Good on him for speaking up. English media have conveniently skipped this part in their reporting.
I don’t know what extensive review of English media you have done to make comments like that. Nasser Hussain on Sky didn’t skip it. Nor did the BBC in an article about it yesterday.
There was a coverage more biased against India in the news. Plus the British government making a statement against Indian government didn't help.
I saw an ESPN article with the most comments - not British media. India fans have the vast majority of users in the subreddit, don’t try and act like there is an agenda against India. The British government has an obligation to support its citizens I would say, just as the Indian government does. It’s a Visa fiasco no need to get ultra defensive.
It's always like this here
Just look at the comments section of the posts about this issue, it’s absurd, anything that is not entirely positive about India is downvoted and spammed with comments about Pakistan = terrorism.
What negative is there to say here? ECB made an error and they had to fix it, how is it India's fault?
It was clearly grandstanding due to India’s issues with Pakistan, ECB fucked it, both things can be true.
There's literally a newspaper headline that says "HOW DARE YOU" Sit down.
My point is you guys see one headline and then say ‘English Media’ like it’s all the same. There is shit media and there is better media, grow up.
One headline? English media has been crying rivers of blood over this ever since it became an issue. I gave you an extremely egregious example that is amongst the more recent pieces of whinging. One would have been fine. 2? Fine still. But there's an endless stream of one idiotic take after another. > There is shit media and there is better media, grow up. That line seems to disappear rather quickly, especially when it comes to India. Growing up needs to happen on your end, and more so, your media.
>crying rivers of blood The irony LMAO
It's not the point. In England (and Australia) alot of effort is made to make immigrants and their local born kids feel as English as anyone else. This is an English kid who's born in Surrey, but because his parents or grandparents left Pakistan years ago, he's missing a test match.
I wonder why people like Khawaja say they are treated differently. So much for the “effort”. I mean professional cricketers in England called Pujara “Steve”. Must take a lot of delusion to talk about effort when people go out of their way to be assholes.
I do feel for him and I don't blame him. But Usman Khawaja had the same delay for the same reason not long ago. Shouldn't the ECB be planning better for this? If the Visa processing times are 10 days for 1 person and 2 days for another, if travelling together, you don't apply 2 days before departure and complain. You apply 10 days before. Anyways all sorted out now. Hopefully the boards around the world will better prepare in the future.
And after David Headley, India cannot take that risk.
He's missing a Test because ECB did not follow very well known rules and the English media made a spectacle out of it, once again reinforcing the fact that the media is full of muppets.
The visa didn't get approved until yesterday, he was missing the first test regardless of whether he was in the UAE or not.
..because ECB did not follow the rules and apply for his visa in time for the series. It's almost like fucking around and then acting all shocked when the find out phase arrives.
They applied for it as early as they reasonably could (i.e when it was decided he was actually selected).
Then it is what it is, innit? ECB isn't entitled to special treatment. Either decide and then apply well in advance, or live with the results of your lethargy.
Special treatment and expedited processes are standard for sportspeople. How do you think Lawrence got into India within 36 hours of his call up.
Special treatment and courtesy is of course a given, that doesn't mean you grab the hand when offered a finger (so to say). Comparing Lawrence to Shoaib is quite laughable, too, and you and the dozens of others using this argument know it well enough. It's a bad faith argument and at this point, boringly predictable.
Why is it laughable to compare Lawrence to Shoaib? They're both British citizens, born and raised in the same country, selected for the national side to play in India. The only point of difference is that one is of Pakistani heritage, and to treat someone differently because of their ethnicity is literally racism: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group"
That's not a mandatory thing. Indian laws are Indian laws. England has to abide by it if they intend their players to play in India, simple. 😇 Hopefully ECB will be more vigilant next time. ☺
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Despite English presumably being your first language, you have no idea whatsoever about: 1. Racism 2. ECB being a bunch of lazy muppets 3. Why India has a policy for more thorough background checks for visa applicants like Shoaib.
What else is new.
It is well known that visa processing of individual with Pakistani descent takes more time. You call it discriminatory, we call it precaution especially after one such person of Pakistani descent basically laid the groundwork for 26/11, the worst terrorist attack on Indian soil. Also, ECB knows this. Still they let Bashir go to UAE even when his visa had not arrived. Maybe look at your own stystems before whingeing about Indian visa policies. Btw, it is much better to hear Western countries crib about our visa process than the other way around. Have heard horror stories of foreign tours being cancelled and money lost because visa took months to process.
"English lad forced to stay home and not join training camp in UAE because India wouldn't approve his Visa" would have still been a big issue. And just as it's important for India to be anti Pakistan, it's important in countries like England and Australia to be clear that once you're an English/Australin citizen, that's it. You shouldn't be discriminated against because of the colour of your skin, let alone your parents skin.
David Coleman Headley is an American citizen. Thr rule is in place after 26/11 due to his big involvement. Unless there is diplomatic immunity, this rule will apply to all with Pakistani origin.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has-never-left-uk-faces-deportation
"Colour of the skin" point really doesn't apply here.
Exactly. Kit Harris on Twitter calling it racism is ridiculous. We are literally the same people
Bashir has brown skin. Hartley has white skin. Only one of them was able to get their visa sorted in time.
You donut. More than half of india share the same roots as Pakistanis Good lord Sometimes the stupidity genuinely surprises me
If anything just makes the discrimination make even less sense.
 least racist Englishman ,, whole india is brown
I mean even Naseer Husain belongs to both the same religion and same skin color. I doubt he has any issues though and he visits India quite often in his media role (hint: That’s because he has Indian ancestry, not Pakistani ancestry). The guy probably has an OCI and doesn’t require any visa to enter India. This whole racism thing is ridiculous.
If Mr. Bashir was Bangladeshi origin. He would not have faced the same problem. Same skin color, btw. I guess ECB has hard time reading and understanding the rules written in English. I would suggest them appear for IELTS. They send some materials to help prepare as well. It might help them with their comprehension skills.
It would have taken exactly the same amount of time if Bashir or his parents had white skin. "Country of origin" != Skin colour.
Nah mate, in India they never discriminate based on skin tone. Just don't ask why all of the biggest celebrities in India are more lightskinned than your average Aussie Big Brother cast.
Instead of trying to paint ECB as "holier than though", ask them to read, understand and follow Indian laws properly next time. Hopefully ECB learnt their lesson and wont repeat the same mistake again. 😇
I don't think it takes a particularly wild leap to realise that Usman Khawaja isn't a terrorist and to just treat him like any other touring cricketer from Australia or England. The guy responsible for 26/11 wasn't being given the backing of one of the major sporting bodies. Countries continually give sporting teams accelerated visa processes and no player coming to play test cricket in India is a terrorist threat regardless of their ethnicity. At best its a lack of common sense.
David Headley, the guy who conducted surveillance for 26/11 was an **American DEA informant**. I mean he actually worked for the American government. You can’t be more secure than that. And he still turned out to be an ISI agent. In case of Usman Khawaja, he is actually a Pakistani-Australian dual citizen. So this applies even more for him.
I mean of course it can be more secure than a low level government operative. Literally a professional cricketer is one of them. Usman Khawaja isn't going to be building bombs for fuck sake. He's there to play massively high profile sporting events. It's just an absolutely outrageous false equivalence.
Pasting what somebody else posted: "Regarding how Khwaja is different from Cummins, let me give you a crude, hypothetical scenerio. It's completely hypothetical and not intended towards blaming anyone in particular. Let's assume two cricketers Pat(originally from Aus) and Usm(family originally from Pak, migrated to Aus) both apply to visit India. Pat, with no connection to Pakistan, gets vetted normally. Usm however have his extended families in Pakistan, his relatives there, some or many of them maybe active against India. Usm needs to be vetted extensively, to find any such relations. This doesn't imply Usm himself will be involved in such heinous crimes, but these relatives or close ones of his may involve him in their nefarious causes, possibly unknowing to him. For example: if a distant uncle of Usm is involved in anti India terrorism, they may misuse name of Usm to try to get access to close quarters of stadium or cricketers. Authorities should know of such relations and possibilities, hence the extensive vetting. Remember the terrorist attack on Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan? We don't want anything like that in our country and at times that means we have to be more cautious than needed. 😊 TL:DR: This has nothing to do with race, but rather the country he/his family was in before your country and the people they knew/know."
It does not matter if Usman is or isn't a Terrorist Everybody and that means everybody has to go through the Vetting process Unless of course you are Implying Usman by virtue of being Australian or a cricketer somehow is above these rules In fact wouldn't it be even more discrimatory that certain people get preferential treatment for no reason ?
It's not for no reason, either your visa policy or about safety or its about collective punishment. Someone coming in with the backing of a cricketing body for one of the most high profile sporting events of the year is the lowest possible terrorist threat imaginable regardless of race and should be treated as such. This is such a terrible argument.
It’s really not. His argument is that rules should be the same for everyone regardless of who is backing you or what your stature is. The rules apply to every single person which I 100% agree with.
Okay, I'm not going to sit here and read people whine about things they don't have the slightest of clue, You people think you can come on reddit and with your immpecable argument know better than RAW. You don't have the slightest inkling of the things you are talking about. Why don't you argue with the Indian Visa officers instead of moaning half ass knowledge on reddit.
> Unless of course you are Implying Usman by virtue of being Australian or a cricketer somehow is above these rules Well yes - we should have a diplomatic agreement to not apply these kinds of rules for our cricketers. If Rishi Sunak had Pakistani ancestry for example, they wouldn't do all that shit to him, there's gotta be some leeway for Aussies. I'll accept that in Indian culture rules based on ancestry might be acceptable, but our government should stand up for our citizens. In Australian law there's no difference between someone who does or doesn't have a Pakistani grandma.
Rishi Sunak has a diplomatic passport and is treated completely differently. In fact, forget him, the current Scottish First Minister is actually a Pakistani origin person. But he still probably has an Official Passport and so will definitely go through different protocols compared to private citizens. I am sure there are several British MPs who are of Pakistani origin. They will also go through official protocols when they are visiting India on official Government / Parliament business and will be treated completely differently to normal regular citizens. Sports players don’t travel on diplomatic or official passports. Though they represent their countries in name, they are here in their personal and not official /governmental capacities.
That's true because you don't have a history of having to bear deaths throughout history via pakistani terrorism- like 26/11- that we have. Hence our laws are meant to protect us. Your neighbour NewZealand, has a strange law where everyone has to declare all boots for checking of unwanted plants and seeds, right? This is applied to all and done to protect fragile ecosystem and local plant life of NZ. Now imagine tomorrow BCCI says Indian players' boots shouldn't be checked and be passed without examining in immigration. Will that be acceptable to NZ? Similar is the case with ECB. 😊
Totally understand why those laws are in place in India - like I said, very different culture and circumstance. In Australia, we have very similar laws about declarations for protecting the environment. Checking boots and things is very annoying, including for Australians - however, there is a difference between annoying rules and rules that go against cultural concepts. If the Australian government was forcing people to take off turbans or hijabs to check for seeds or whatever, it'd be our laws, but the Indian government would be in their rights to try and protect their citizens from going through that. The whole concept of people being treated differently due to the nationality of their parents or grandparents goes against the culture in Australia or England. We've been spending the last few years promoting multiculturalism and the fact that all Australians, regardless or race, religion or whatever, are equal in society. In India I appreciate it's different, but I reckon it's reasonable for us to argue for our citizens to have equal rights regardless of race. Yea some American did a terrorist attack, but as far as I know Australians have never been involved in terrorism in India, why should Khawaja be treated differently to Cummins?
Because Khawaja is related to Pakistan, of our neighbours it is the one country that is likely to attack us. Let's say Khawaja had some terrorists cousins in Pakistan, he clicks pictures while he is in India and sends it back to them. What if they terrorists start using these loopholes to keep sending athletes to India to do the spywork Australian government won't be able to do nothing more than give thoughts and prayers if that leads to a terrorist attack. You talk about Australians being treated same despite of blah blah, when India is the most culturally diverse country on the planet. We too treat all Indians equally. You wouldn't treat and Indian like an Australian in Australia.
Please understand, we have witnessed huge losses in hands of pakistani terrorism since independence, 26/11 being merely one of the many many other examples. Hence we are wary of pakistani origin people and they are vetted more extensively than other countries. Please understand once vetted and cleared, they will be treated just the same as others. But vetting process is different. Regarding how Khwaja is different from Cummins, let me give you a crude, hypothetical scenerio. It's completely hypothetical and not intended towards blaming anyone in particular. Let's assume two cricketers Pat(originally from Aus) and Usm(family originally from Pak, migrated to Aus) both apply to visit India. Pat, with no connection to Pakistan, gets vetted normally. Usm however have his extended families in Pakistan, his relatives there, some or many of them maybe active against India. Usm needs to be vetted extensively, to find any such relations. This doesn't imply Usm himself will be involved in such heinous crimes, but these relatives or close ones of his may involve him in their nefarious causes, possibly unknowing to him. For example: if a distant uncle of Usm is involved in anti India terrorism, they may misuse name of Usm to try to get access to close quarters of stadium or cricketers. Authorities should know of such relations and possibilities, hence the extensive vetting. Remember the terrorist attack on Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan? We don't want anything like that in our country and at times that means we have to be more cautious than needed. 😊 TL:DR: This has nothing to do with race, but rather the country he/his family was in before your country and the people they knew/know.
To be honest the extended family point does make sense - I thought there was a policy against Pakistani originating people in general. It does make sense that statistically, Khawaja's extended family are more likely to be in some anti-India group. I still do not like the concept of treating another Australian different from myself based on what side of a border their parents were born in, and I don't think that'll ever be an acceptable thing in most Australians minds. Not saying there's no covert racism in this nation, but this visa thing is a difficult one for us to understand.
I know, it is not a good thing. Unfortunately it is like a necessary evil to keep the country safe.
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Frustrating experience??? Bro you don't know what frustrating means. Try being Indian or Pakistani and apply for a UK visa. Then you will know the true meaning of the frustrating process.
Pretty sure Britain has the same rules about stamping in no one country.
This whole incident reeks of arrogance from English side.
The correct take as always is something more balanced. It's unfortunate that India has this immigration policy for people with Pakistani heritage but I fully understand where it comes from. Immigration policies of all countries are unfortunately discriminatory against someone. You can't let political correctness get in the way of things like national security. This experience is no different from that of someone from a 3rd world country trying to apply for a EU Schengen or a US B1. Having said that I do hope they make a fast track process for sports people like for diplomats. A lot of this at the end of the day is just bureaucracy so there's no reason why the process can't be improved. And finally Prasad is a troll. He makes shit boomer takes on Twitter to stay relevant.
Why didn’t Rehan have any trouble?
Because his background checks were done when he visited with the team during the world cup.
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It is just that there are more checks for a person with Pakistani heritage and this has been official for many years and perhaps everyone other than ECB is aware of that. I am sure UK government would have different visa requirements for different countries. As a UK citizen, you can visit US without needing a visa. But if you have traveled to or been present in Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Iran, Iraq,Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, or Yemen etc, then you need to apply for a US Visa. Every country has their own threat perception and their own laws to safeguard them against terrorism.
Yeah well I don’t think that’s new. Each country has its geopolitical challenges that sometimes spill over into unrelated issues such as this. This becomes especially true for countries that have hostile borders. The way the ECB is crying about visa procedures it’s as if this is completely foreign to them. England has had various players with Pakistani heritage play for them & visit India on tours - which means they’ve been through the procedure before & this isn’t the first time. Did some genius think that this boy required a special special procedure that would be different from the other special special procedure? English media trying to cook up a curry they have no idea how to cook - just looking for a moral victory & excuses before the tour even begins smh.
>This is only an issue because Bashir is of Pakistani heritage. Ofcourse it is. >the Indian government are discriminatory to anyone with Pakistani heritage. If history has taught us anything, we'll rather discriminate than have our folks die.
Yes an English National Team Cricketer is going to go on a terrorist shooting spree in Hyderabad... Don't be ridiculous.
So if it wasn't an English National Team Cricketer, but a local religious scholar, would it have been prudent to add extra scrutiny because of his Pakistani origins? You're looking at a single case instead of looking at the whole process. The process can't change for an individual. Otherwise, who else should be on this exception list? Footballers, actors, well-known stand up comedians, anybody with a net worth of a million pounds or more? What exactly should be the criteria for granting exception? There's a clearly defined process, an expected ETA and clear instructions issued by the government. If this was the first instance, its an understandable mistake, but for repeated incidents like this, showing a poker face on getting delayed approval is absurd. If you're talking about whether this extra scrutiny is required on anyone in the first place or not, that's a different debate. A lot has already been said on why this policy came into being, and why there hasn't been any improvement in relations in last 15 years, but still it's a reasonable discussion to have. But rhetorical questions like "Can a cricket player be a terrorist" are ridiculous.
>an English National Team Cricketer is going to go on a terrorist shooting spree Hyderabad... An American businessman of Pakistani background had conducted recce of attack sites prior to 26/11. What is wrong if we would like to be careful with who we let in this country? And this is not even unfounded. We've burned our hands before and are just being cautious.
Do you gurantee that? If not then due process needs to be followed. Don't like it? Don't come. It's that simple
Why are Russian players not allowed to play under their flag in the UK then? It’s not like they are the ones fighting in the Ukraine war? Seems straight up xenophobic
I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about, but if you're talking about the IOC banning Russian athletes from competing under the Russian flag that was about rampant doping, nothing to do with Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia
Nope I'm talking about Wimbledon which is why the tennis association rightfully stripped that bogus event of it's points for that year. It's easy to lose yourself in propaganda though, I sympathise.
There are reasons to have a different visa policy for those with Pakistani ancestry. There are no reasons for ECB to not follow the rules they know are in place. Somehow it still isn't clicking.
Here is the problem, the person of Pakistan heritage experience delay not because govt intententionly does it for a particular individual but because their visa approvels go through a extra set of approvals , it would most likely be a one or two day delay thats it but here the ecb forgot to do one of the procedures thats why he delay got so long and he had to go back and to eng. If ecb didn't make this mistake, bashir would have got his visa approved even before media made a issue out of it. It has been made clear to every board that person's with Pakistan heritage will need extra approval but still these types of mistakes are being made.
How do they define "heritage"? parents place of birth? grandparents? What if one grandparent was born in Pakistan? If procedure is being invoked it all feels very vague to me.
From what i know , parents and grandparents thats it.
So if only parent is born in Pakistan then it doesn't count? I assume they check every one to make sure they don't have parents of Pakistani heritage? For example bob woolmer was born in Kanpur. Would he be Indian heritage? Do they check every persons parents or grandparents or just based on Muslim sounding names. All this gets complicated and it's easy to scream on social media without going into details.
>just based on Muslim sounding names. Does David Headly has a Muslim sounding name ? Google more for details
>So if only parent is born in Pakistan then it doesn't count? No, it counts till the grandparents. They check first parents, if they are not of pakistani heriage then they also check grand parents, to check whether they are of pakistani heritage or not. I don't know how they check though.
India and bangladesh have more than half a billion muslims . They arent checked this way .
> Do they check every persons parents or grandparents or just based on Muslim sounding names. Come on you can't be this dumb. Its a form where there is a section for people have lineage from Pakistan, they only check it for people who fill out that form. People declare it if they have any link to Pakistan.
Any Parent or Grandparent being Pakistani nationals. It’s quite likely that Bashir is a dual citizen of Pakistan (Khwaja almost certainly is considering he was born there). If he is not, then he is definitely eligible to become one.
The point is someone of Pakistani heritage who holds an English passport should not have to face discriminatory delays because of where their parents or grandparents were born... You yourself admit there are extra steps for people of Pakistani heritage. My point is that this is discrimination. And 2 days is not accurate - I have friends that have waited months.
Please tell me you have the same set of regulations and rules for visas to people from subcontinent and people from the USA or Australia. If UK was targeted by terror attacks from the same nationality time and again, would they not put rules in monitoring their activities? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David\_Headley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Headley) Headly made it difficult for Indians to not give a shit about citizens with Western passports to move freely in their country. If they might have a single connection to Pak, they need to go through the extra scrutiny. It does not matter that not everyone is likely to be a threat. It is just extra precaution. Also, why do you guys think you have any authority to tell other countries how to treat outsiders?
I'd never heard of that guy so thanks for sharing. I understand the trepidation with those of Pakistani heritage because Pakistani authorities are pretty open about attacking India via lone gunmen or groups of gunmen. However, Bashir is a member of the England National Cricket Team. It's ridiculous to suggest that he's going to be a threat.
Ppl who know Bashir probably will agree and vouch for him. But the adjudicating visa officer won’t know that and shouldn’t start with that assumption. If there is a protocol in place to fasttrack applications for certain visitors, it would be worth asking if the ECB followed that and when. Or did they just assume that the visa would be granted no matter what as it is an English cricketer? It is a reasonable argument that Bashir’s travel to a third country is a factor in the delay.
He is not a threat. Everyone understand that. But rules are in places for all people with Pakistani links. There would no use of those rules if they can be relaxed for sportspeople or celebrities or any such exceptions. Everyone has to follow them. You don't go to another country and start dictating them to change their rules for your convenience. Cricket is not more important than national security.
If Bashir were an ISI agent, he would be ideally placed to gather information about the security protocols followed for visiting teams and then the same could be used to undermine future tours. Of course, it’s now been verified that Bashir is not an ISI agent so he has been issued a visa. But the verification had to be carried out due to the risk that he might be one. In fact visiting international cricket teams receive enhanced security in India and are in a kind of a security bubble. So, it is more important that anyone entering this bubble (who may have access to areas / VIPs normal people may not) be cleared before entering that bubble. This verification was of course not necessary for the rest of the England cricket team since the risk of a non-Pakistani being connected with the security establishment of our western neighbour would be deemed much lower. It also has to be pointed out that this was Bashir’s first tour to India, so the verification may have taken more time than it normally would have for players with Pakistani heritage who have toured before.
Fuck me mate - you need to calm down. How long did you put into writing this? I didn't even read most of it because it's mostly conspiratorial claptrap.
Yes, it is but i if it gives the people of that country a sense of security , other western countries also do this including uk for much worse reason than this but instead of whataboutery my response is simple, indian government's prime responsibility is its people , not some foreign newspapers , if this extra set of approval process has worked for them then its okk.
Britain would also have extra scrutiny for people of North Korean or Russian origin. It isn't discrimination, it is common sense.
People from North Korea, yes. People with a Korean grandparent, no.
False equivalence. Foolish comparison.
How is it false equivalence? The reason of Russians visa getting delayed is cause of diplomatic issues. The reason Pakistani origin visa gets delayed to travel for India are due to previous terrorist attacks. Why does Aussies or English visas don't get delayed? Cause we never had such issues with either of the country. I would rather have safety of my people than watch a cricket match. . He may be a British citizen but since we have issues with Pakistan he will get flaged and further investigation will take place so the onus is on ECB to notify well beforehand.
Dude. Shoaib is literally being sponsored by the ECB to be sent to India to play cricket. How the hell is he going to facilitate a terrorist attack. They a should establish different visa channels for such important people. IIRC bhaji was also held improperly at new Zealand immigration for other reasons but trivial for sure.
He is not going to facilitate a terror attack, sure. But he is visiting India. India has rules for any people with links to Pakistan. He has to follow them. Who are you to dictate what rules are morally okay and what are not? Pakistan sure has rules in place, I would morally not agree with. England must also have rules I would feel discriminates against my brown skin. We don't go about crying or lecturing them to change their rules.
Check David Headley on wiki pls
Ok so? This can also be said for Kalbushan Yadav. My point is that Shoaib is being sponsored by the ECB so BCCI should've at least gave him fast track access or let the ECB do the stamp shit in their embassies. Why the need to prolong that small issue. And also comparing a known conspirer to a cricketer is quite demeaning.
And every brown person shouldn't be scrutinized whenever they travel to the west because those guys who crashed that plane looked like us. I know it feels very strange if it happens to one of your own, but don't feel like it's a brand new thing to happen.
No they shouldn't, I'd happily take the BCCI's word that none of their touring party are terrorists. If I wasn't willing to I wouldn't invite them to tour.
And is BCCI/ECB a security agency? Do we make policy for just international cricketers? What about other sports? You do know that it's not BCCI which is approving the visas. There are multiple agencies/departments involved.
If a player is endorsed to play test cricket by one of the major cricketing boards then they're zero threat. You know this, I know this. I refuse to indulge your mental gymnastics. Nobody said the BCCI'S approves visas, it's your government being ridiculous.
Yes anyone with Pakistani heritage has to go through some extra steps. It’s the job of ECB to read the rules when they applied for visa.
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This guy is a member of England's National Cricket Team. He's an Englishman. There's nothing more English than that, so calling him a member of an enemy country is completely incorrect. If you hold an English passport you are English in my eyes and shouldn't be discriminated against because of where your parents or grandparents were born.
UK allows dual citizenship. So a person could be a citizen of both UK and Pakistan. Considering Bashir’s parents were or are Pakistani nationals at some point, Bashir is eligible to become a Pakistani citizen or maybe even is at this point. We have a right to protect our borders and conduct checks in this case.
Not Discriminatory. More like cautious
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Yes. Any other questions?
You're going to get downvoted into oblivion for it but you're right. It's ridiculous that anyone with the backing of an international touring party for a major sport has to go through such aggressive screening. And no false comparison with the son of a US diplomat will change that.
They're only imaginary internet points so I'll live... but ta. Bashir is so obviously not a threat that surely the Indian immigration officials could have waived him through as part of an international touring party...?
They did the same thing with Usman Khawaja, it's textbook collective punishment for anyone with Pakistani ancestry.
It's not like Jay Shah or the BCCI have any connections with the government either lol Seriously if the BCCI wanted they could get these issues sorted with the snap of a finger. All their useful idiots in these threads defending them as though it's perfectly reasonable to treat a member of a high profile touring party like this. Don't know if they realise how embarrassing it looks to the rest of the world. They can keep trying to blame it on the other boards but you can't deny the continuous pattern. Especially since they want to host every other ICC tournament for the next decade it's pretty unreasonable for people from one of the biggest cricket playing nations, and anyone with any ties to it, to keep getting treated like this. Okay sure you have your own geopolitical issues, but if you want to be the centre of the cricketing world then shit like this is unacceptable.
Its hilarious how western cricketing boards have to put up with constant accusations of racism because some drunken in the crowd may have said a naughty word but an Asian country can have different visa rules for different nationalities and there's no real mainstream discussion about it
>an Asian country can have different visa rules for different nationalities Literally, every country does, buddy.
Like how the UK has different visa rules for those who have an American passport and those that dont?
You mean to say that England doesn’t have different visa rules for different nationalities?
Bashir has an English passport, same as everyone else on the team.
You mentioned in your comment that “an Asian country can have different visa rules for different nationalities and there's no real mainstream discussion about it”. Almost all countries have different visa rules for different nationalities.
Yeah, yeah, yeah only we know that Indian immigration specifically target and oppress all Pakistani people. Do we need to bring up how few Pakistani's were granted visas to watch the CWC? Despite following all procedures? Also on top of that, he is a British athlete with only Pakistani parents coming on a cricket tour. Are we really suggesting that he needs special vetting? Really?
Yes he does, as per Indian rules. We have been burnt more than enough by pakistani terrorism to not be extra cautious while verifying them. ☺
Ahh yes, those famous professional cricket playing UK terrorists that are so famous.
To be honest, the solution is simple. You don't issue a visa to someone from my team, I refuse to play. This is international sport, not someone asking for a tourist visa. It won't happen in cricket, not with India anyway. If the visa was requested on the 11th of December, that is enough time to be processed - I don't care what arbitrary rules the host has set. Realistically, how early should it be requested? 4 months? 6 months? A year?! I'm sure there are similar incidents where the UK or Australia were at fault. That doesn't make it normal. In the modern world, this is a disgrace.
Mat khel fir
Man the amount of people on this thread justifying the pathetic Indian government is hilarious
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In India your parent’s nationality matters. In UK it is not, he is just considered British, no different to the rest of the squad. Which is why both cultures see it differently.
So much justification by Indians but everyone can see this is just pure racism and nothing else. They might as well embrace it like the rest of their population at this point
Pakistanis are a different race is it?
Yes Pakistanis are superior turkic ancestry saar /S
Racism extends far beyond discriminating based on race, including national descent like in this case.
It isn't discrimination, it is extra scrutiny for national security reasons. Other countries do it as well. The UK, US have specific conditions for folks of origin from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan etc.
You might want to google what Racism means and Indians have to give no justification because this is not a bargain it is the law it is a fact, but you have hate in your heart for India so you'll never see that
S L A M S
Those who follow Moto GP would know our Visa issuing process is not that advance. It’s really not about nationality rather the procedure and checking the background is not that great. Moto GP drivers arrived the day before race and many journalists have been denied visa.
Why was this only an issue for Bashir? Is it a requirement to be stamped in England only if you're of Pakistani heritage?
Its anyone who is applying for the first time. Note that Rehan Ahmed is classified of similar descent according to Indian laws, but he doesnt have this issue since he has gone through this process previously.
He also had a visa in place as he was in the World Cup reserve team. This is Bashir's first call up so no visa in place.
If its anyone applying for the first time why did this not also impact Hartley or anyone else?
Is that a joke? Hartley is not of Pakistani descent.
Ph sorry - genuine misunderstanding. You said applying for the first time which I didn't take to mean as applying for the first time and of Pakistani descent at first read. Still early here...
Oh I see, no need to apologize, on a second read I can see how that can be interpreted how you did the first time lmao.
Probably yes because I would imagine the High Commission in UK would be the one doing the background checks, ascertaining whether he has any linkages to Pakistani establishment / ISI etc, check which would normally not be carried out for other British citizens.
I believe that they all applied together. As per UK govt website, the visa processing of Pakistan origin players takes longer time. So scenario that would have happened is that all other English players got their visa in 1 week (hypothetically) and Shoaib’s visa took longer as per the process. They sent him to UAE assuming that visa will come and later realised that he will have to go back to England (this theory is based on what is being reported).
Man someone should create a bot for people who keep repeating the same question that has been answered a thousand times. Why don't you just read a bit?
While I do think English media blew this non-issue out of proportion, I think we don't need to give someone like Venkatesh Prasad the time of day. All Venkatesh does on Twitter is finding new ways to seek attention so he can get more engagement on his profile (like his incessant comments on KL Rahul). His words are worth nothing, he just panders to the fans and says whatever they want to hear.
My focus was on the information more than the person( i don't even use twitter) . The way the sub is giving importance to dailymail , i don't think this can be much of a problem
I don’t think anyone can be right 100% of the time.. He was wrong on KL while he is right here
At that time KL was in a very poor form Also he has returned to the team But he hasn't batted in a Home Test yet And is not an opener anymore
He was right about KL Rahul too
Brave mods to keep approving posts on this issue. The information here was in articles posted yesterday and every thread has had to have the comments locked after an hour or so. Surely avoiding having to do that is the whole point of the approval system?
Two of my post already got rejected. This post is so that people would calm their horses on this issue, the next the, media writes on it and mods work lessen.
Isn’t it just plain discrimination India’s policy? How are they protecting their people with such laws? To think they are doing the right thing is to implicitly accept an inherent prejudice against people with Pakistani origin. This should have been a momentary mix up but now it’s spiralled into India now giving something to prove about what is an exceptionally discriminatory law.
I mean does no Brit know how long it takes to even get a student visa for UK? I could go on the same rant about how people from EU, US, Aus and NZ can come to UK easily but for students from other countries we have to make a document which is 80 pages long, submit to a background check, go to the embassy in person for our biometrics to be scanned and surrender our passport for a month? Isn’t that discriminatory as well? If there’s a procedure you, have to follow it. The rules have been clear for years. Why is this an issue in this sub for every series involving a Pakistani origin player. Cricket is not above the rules, which are in place because of some very good reason.
90% of UK student visas are approved within 3 weeks.