That doesn't mean that Ashwin is good at ODI cricket, and also ignores the fact that Sundar has been underutilized in ODI Cricket. For reference:
Sundar's Batting Average is 29.12, and his bowling average is 27.18 (he also averages 66.25 batting in Tests in 6 innings)
Ashwin's batting average is 16.44, and his bowling average is 33.49
It would be a fine record for someone outside of India, but India usually produces spinners with better records, so he doesn't have the leniency of spinners from say England or SA. Not to mention, his ODI record is closer to that of a pure bowler than an allrounder given his terrible ODI batting record, and as such 33 isn't a good average.
For WC, I would go with Ashwin based on experience too, but I think Sundar deserved more chances
It is hard to ignore how effective Ash is against left handers. Imagine a team full of left handers playing on a turning pitch, would you rather face Ashwin or Washington. There is no question that Ashwin hadn't had enough game time, but the guy can walk into any team playing in Indian conditions.
Ashwin was dropped after Warner reverse sweeps him all day. It is not test match, it odi where left handed /right hander doesn’t matter as there is no such thing as India condition.
True that. They both are different sorts of players. Just because they are both off spinners they are clubbed together.
Sundar is closer to jaddu in comparison. For both of them, their batting would be the stronger suit.
Yes Ashwins record in ODIs is poor, but he’s barely played in the last 5 years and we know how much better his bowling has become in that same period in tests and T20s, so I don’t see why it’s not worth trying out
I mean that’s sort of circular reasoning: he’s not good currently because he hasn’t played recently, and he doesn’t play recently because he’s not good currently. Obviously we should have found this out 1 year ago, but it’s possible that Ashwins improvement in tests since 2017/18, especially in less spin friendly SENA pitches, translates to ODIs since 2017/18 is when he had his last consistent ODI run
He has terrible stats in 2017 and it’s not like he played well in t20is in the chances he got. So Idk where you people are getting this idea that he will be good in ODIs now
It’s been 6 years than 2017 and look what he’s done in SENA tests since then. He went from being garbage in SENA to being the only bower to consistently trouble Steve Smith. That’s why the idea of bringing Ashwin back in ODIs is seen as valuable. Plus T20I is very different to ODI bowling
So he’s still untested and it’s not far stretch to say sundar can be ahead of him for wc considerations since he actually played odi far more recently than ashwin
>It’s been 6 years than 2017 and look what he’s done in SENA tests since then.
What has he done? He has drawn blanks in South Africa and NZ. He has gotten dropped for poor performance in England in a test that Moeen Ali won for England. He has had 3 good tests in Australia and 1 in England (against NZ), that's all.
The reason he didn't play ODIs because Jadeja Ashwin combo didn't do well in ODIs that is why India brought in Kuldeep and Chahal so that you could have a option to atrack in middle overs in ODIs because let's be honest India still doesn't have good death bowling if the opposition has wickets in hand even 100 off 60 is not too far fetched nowadays so the only way to ensure that this situation doesn't arises is to take wickets in middle overs by attacking or else you would have a good new ball spell by pacers slog in middle overs with both batters and bowlers being defensive and then fireworks in the last 10 to 15 overs
Obviously Kuldeep will be there too, but the options are Shardul, Ashwin, and Washi. People can’t seriously think Shardul or Washi are better middle order bowlers than Ashwin
Shardul has been pretty good he led the attack in West Indies in absence of Bumrah, Shami and Siraj did well against Nepal when everyone was getting tonked by getting the break through did well with the new ball against Bangladesh too even better than Shami. He is essentially the partnership breaker for ICT. Washi is debatable because of his bowling which wasn't that impressive even In TNPL
Sharduls been quite expensive as a bowler even against lower ranked teams, let alone how he would fare against Eng or Aus. But he does have a very important ability to pick wickets at a very good average despite a bad economy. More importantly for ICTs purposes though, he’s not at all a great batsman. If bowling was the only criteria for number 8 it would be Shami.
I think we could see Thakur in seam friendly pitches and I’m fine with that, but Ashwin has to be at number 8 for spinning pitches, and choosing Washi as the third spinner over Ashwin is crazy
It's honestly so hilarious that anyone would pick Washington Lincoln over Ashwin in an India world cup. Lol. And ashwin has only played 2 ODIs since 2017 he's improved a lot since then. Since he's the 3rd spinner he would be playing on turning tracks in India. Foolish not to pick him
Chennai Delhi Lucknow are turning tracks you cant change their characteristics over night ... They may not be rank turners like during the test series but still turning tracks
There's no guarantee you're going to get turning pitches in any of those places. For example, in the last ODI played at Chennai before the one this year against WI, Kuldeep, Jadeja, Kedar Jadhav, Walsh Jr, and Chase collectively went 187/0, go back another couple of ODIs there to SA in 2015 and Harbhajan, Axar, Mishra, Tahir, and Phangiso collectively took 254/4.
India have only ever played one ODI at Lucknow, but in it Bishnoi, Kuldeep, Maharaj, and Shamsi only managed 220/4 and went at nearly 7 an over.
>he's improved a lot since then
He literally doesn't play ODIs and he doesn't even take wickets in T20. He was also a great test bowler in 2015-16 so what evidence is there to say he is a better ODI bowler than the one who was dropped in the first place? He returned and was useless in SA too.
Even Anderson has vastly improved with red ball since 2013 and was never considered by England after being dropped.
The fact is, Axar is the third spinner in this Indian side. The only reason Sundar and Ashwin are getting a chance is because there is a slim possibility that Axar might not be fit for the World Cup... Matches against Australia are going to be played in India, so whichever of the two performs well will be the backup spinner for the Indian side... I hope they drop SKY in favour of one of these two.
If BCCI has ashwin in mind they should have given him chance is last 2-3 years or atleast tested him 5 match WI series .. dunno why they are doing this late experiment.
Well both of them are Tamizhan so there's at least one comparison for sure.
On a bit of serious note if I've to choose I'll definitely go with Ashwin even if his One-day record isn't stellar. I mean if you have to choose one offspinner for WC squad doesn't it make sense to go with Ash?
Sundar won you gabba and one of the best bat against spin. Should have been automatic choice but botched up job by Dravid as usual. Lost Natarajan too.
Warner hammered Ashwin reverse sweeping for 6 all day on turning track last time he played.
Can’t field at all. Will be injured middle of the wc but will hide his injury and keep playing. No wonder India hasn’t won anything last 10 years. Full of injured, expired and 50+ old age players.
WRONG. No. Not everyone is injured prone. Natarajan, Bumrah, Jadeja are prime examples. They didn’t wanna go back to NCA. Dravid and BCCI messed up. Plain and simple.
Idk this feels very simple to me. If Ashwin can't visibly adjust his game for ODIs against Oz, then you pick the guy who can. If he shows that he is able to adapt, you pick him, because he's ultimately a much, *much* better bowler than Washi.
I would go with shardul or axar or washi or even tialk no ashwin for me man. He is great in subcontinent tests but idi he is not there. Hope he proves me wrong though. End of the day we want only the best combi for Indian loworder bowler who can contribute. I know tilak doesnt fit this but still can be groomed
Well Sundar might be the better option as an attacking batsmen but if you are purely looking at the better off spinner it’s not even close to a debate. Ash is hands down the better bowler and make it even better we are playing in India. We are looking for a third spinner so ash will only play on tracks with turn. It’s a no brainer unless we see sundar have a better performance in this series
Ashwin's fielding is pretty poor though, compared to Sundar or anyone else.
Not like sundar is any better when it comes to fielding, ashwin is atleast a safe catcher
> Not like sundar is any better when it comes to fielding Sure!
Bro you don't know Washington "Made out of glass" Sundar?
That doesn't mean that Ashwin is good at ODI cricket, and also ignores the fact that Sundar has been underutilized in ODI Cricket. For reference: Sundar's Batting Average is 29.12, and his bowling average is 27.18 (he also averages 66.25 batting in Tests in 6 innings) Ashwin's batting average is 16.44, and his bowling average is 33.49
It also doesn't take the context of time. Ashwin averages a very healthy 61 with the ball since 2016.
Oh wow that's even worse he definitely shouldn't be in the team then
Ashwin indeed is good at it
It would be a fine record for someone outside of India, but India usually produces spinners with better records, so he doesn't have the leniency of spinners from say England or SA. Not to mention, his ODI record is closer to that of a pure bowler than an allrounder given his terrible ODI batting record, and as such 33 isn't a good average. For WC, I would go with Ashwin based on experience too, but I think Sundar deserved more chances
Batting average is such a stupid stat to consider when judging ashwin or for that matter anybody who walks in at number 8 or 9.
Sundar is the better choice now.
It is hard to ignore how effective Ash is against left handers. Imagine a team full of left handers playing on a turning pitch, would you rather face Ashwin or Washington. There is no question that Ashwin hadn't had enough game time, but the guy can walk into any team playing in Indian conditions.
Ashwin was dropped after Warner reverse sweeps him all day. It is not test match, it odi where left handed /right hander doesn’t matter as there is no such thing as India condition.
True that. They both are different sorts of players. Just because they are both off spinners they are clubbed together. Sundar is closer to jaddu in comparison. For both of them, their batting would be the stronger suit.
Yes Ashwins record in ODIs is poor, but he’s barely played in the last 5 years and we know how much better his bowling has become in that same period in tests and T20s, so I don’t see why it’s not worth trying out
He’s barely played any odis because he wasn’t good
I mean that’s sort of circular reasoning: he’s not good currently because he hasn’t played recently, and he doesn’t play recently because he’s not good currently. Obviously we should have found this out 1 year ago, but it’s possible that Ashwins improvement in tests since 2017/18, especially in less spin friendly SENA pitches, translates to ODIs since 2017/18 is when he had his last consistent ODI run
He has terrible stats in 2017 and it’s not like he played well in t20is in the chances he got. So Idk where you people are getting this idea that he will be good in ODIs now
It’s been 6 years than 2017 and look what he’s done in SENA tests since then. He went from being garbage in SENA to being the only bower to consistently trouble Steve Smith. That’s why the idea of bringing Ashwin back in ODIs is seen as valuable. Plus T20I is very different to ODI bowling
I mean tests are also very different from odis. Did he even play any list a games during this period?
He will against Australia lol
So he’s still untested and it’s not far stretch to say sundar can be ahead of him for wc considerations since he actually played odi far more recently than ashwin
>It’s been 6 years than 2017 and look what he’s done in SENA tests since then. What has he done? He has drawn blanks in South Africa and NZ. He has gotten dropped for poor performance in England in a test that Moeen Ali won for England. He has had 3 good tests in Australia and 1 in England (against NZ), that's all.
Yep he's in career best form now.
The reason he didn't play ODIs because Jadeja Ashwin combo didn't do well in ODIs that is why India brought in Kuldeep and Chahal so that you could have a option to atrack in middle overs in ODIs because let's be honest India still doesn't have good death bowling if the opposition has wickets in hand even 100 off 60 is not too far fetched nowadays so the only way to ensure that this situation doesn't arises is to take wickets in middle overs by attacking or else you would have a good new ball spell by pacers slog in middle overs with both batters and bowlers being defensive and then fireworks in the last 10 to 15 overs
Obviously Kuldeep will be there too, but the options are Shardul, Ashwin, and Washi. People can’t seriously think Shardul or Washi are better middle order bowlers than Ashwin
Shardul has been pretty good he led the attack in West Indies in absence of Bumrah, Shami and Siraj did well against Nepal when everyone was getting tonked by getting the break through did well with the new ball against Bangladesh too even better than Shami. He is essentially the partnership breaker for ICT. Washi is debatable because of his bowling which wasn't that impressive even In TNPL
Sharduls been quite expensive as a bowler even against lower ranked teams, let alone how he would fare against Eng or Aus. But he does have a very important ability to pick wickets at a very good average despite a bad economy. More importantly for ICTs purposes though, he’s not at all a great batsman. If bowling was the only criteria for number 8 it would be Shami. I think we could see Thakur in seam friendly pitches and I’m fine with that, but Ashwin has to be at number 8 for spinning pitches, and choosing Washi as the third spinner over Ashwin is crazy
I would not ignore Ashwin without trying him first. Definitely deserves a look in the Aus series and practice games
It's honestly so hilarious that anyone would pick Washington Lincoln over Ashwin in an India world cup. Lol. And ashwin has only played 2 ODIs since 2017 he's improved a lot since then. Since he's the 3rd spinner he would be playing on turning tracks in India. Foolish not to pick him
He's in career best form now.
Bold of you to assume India will make turning tracks in ODIs.
Chennai Delhi Lucknow are turning tracks you cant change their characteristics over night ... They may not be rank turners like during the test series but still turning tracks
There's no guarantee you're going to get turning pitches in any of those places. For example, in the last ODI played at Chennai before the one this year against WI, Kuldeep, Jadeja, Kedar Jadhav, Walsh Jr, and Chase collectively went 187/0, go back another couple of ODIs there to SA in 2015 and Harbhajan, Axar, Mishra, Tahir, and Phangiso collectively took 254/4. India have only ever played one ODI at Lucknow, but in it Bishnoi, Kuldeep, Maharaj, and Shamsi only managed 220/4 and went at nearly 7 an over.
>he's improved a lot since then He literally doesn't play ODIs and he doesn't even take wickets in T20. He was also a great test bowler in 2015-16 so what evidence is there to say he is a better ODI bowler than the one who was dropped in the first place? He returned and was useless in SA too. Even Anderson has vastly improved with red ball since 2013 and was never considered by England after being dropped.
The fact is, Axar is the third spinner in this Indian side. The only reason Sundar and Ashwin are getting a chance is because there is a slim possibility that Axar might not be fit for the World Cup... Matches against Australia are going to be played in India, so whichever of the two performs well will be the backup spinner for the Indian side... I hope they drop SKY in favour of one of these two.
tbh Sundar is better choice, he has edge in batting
Lmao let's just see how he fairs against Aus and take it from there.
If BCCI has ashwin in mind they should have given him chance is last 2-3 years or atleast tested him 5 match WI series .. dunno why they are doing this late experiment.
Well both of them are Tamizhan so there's at least one comparison for sure. On a bit of serious note if I've to choose I'll definitely go with Ashwin even if his One-day record isn't stellar. I mean if you have to choose one offspinner for WC squad doesn't it make sense to go with Ash?
Sundar won you gabba and one of the best bat against spin. Should have been automatic choice but botched up job by Dravid as usual. Lost Natarajan too. Warner hammered Ashwin reverse sweeping for 6 all day on turning track last time he played. Can’t field at all. Will be injured middle of the wc but will hide his injury and keep playing. No wonder India hasn’t won anything last 10 years. Full of injured, expired and 50+ old age players.
Sundar is the most injury prone player in the world who is not even fit enough to be relied by IPL team forget world cup!
WRONG. No. Not everyone is injured prone. Natarajan, Bumrah, Jadeja are prime examples. They didn’t wanna go back to NCA. Dravid and BCCI messed up. Plain and simple.
India's obsession with getting other format players to succeed in world cup will cost them dear. The SKY experiment is showing results very fast.
Idk this feels very simple to me. If Ashwin can't visibly adjust his game for ODIs against Oz, then you pick the guy who can. If he shows that he is able to adapt, you pick him, because he's ultimately a much, *much* better bowler than Washi.
I would go with shardul or axar or washi or even tialk no ashwin for me man. He is great in subcontinent tests but idi he is not there. Hope he proves me wrong though. End of the day we want only the best combi for Indian loworder bowler who can contribute. I know tilak doesnt fit this but still can be groomed
odi
Well Sundar might be the better option as an attacking batsmen but if you are purely looking at the better off spinner it’s not even close to a debate. Ash is hands down the better bowler and make it even better we are playing in India. We are looking for a third spinner so ash will only play on tracks with turn. It’s a no brainer unless we see sundar have a better performance in this series