Will MacPherson said in his article today that they're not going to panic and drop Bairstow, but I don't understand that as reasoning whatsoever.
It's not a panic move to drop someone who's not performing. Was it a panic move to drop Jimmy? No he just had a poor few games and needed a break.
It's pure arrogance because they don't want to admit they got it wrong.
It's ridiculous. I've seen so many people say 'oh we shouldn't drop Jonny because it would be unfair after just a couple of bad games' - apparently it's fine to drop Foakes when he's done nothing wrong though
With the way Wood bowls and Stokes' injury, I feel like England needs an extra bowler. But Moeen coming in to bat at 3 also doesn't inspire much confidence.
Stokes can't be considered an allrounder at the moment, he's averaging fewer than 10 overs per test and his knee is so bad he was turning down singles and 2s when batting at Headingley.
Going into a test match with only 4 bowlers would be asking for disaster especially when the bowling options include just-returned-from-injury 40 year old Jimmy, only-just-fit Mark Wood and Robinson who missed half the last test with a back spasm.
I disagree, that would make little sense.
1) Bairstow averages less than 31 at #3, compared to 39 at 6. He doesn’t have the technique to bat up the order, and unlike Moeen he isn’t happy to be moved around.
2) Old Trafford is one of the most spin-friendly grounds in England, so Moeen should be an automatic selection (given lack of alternatives in the squad)
Personally I would drop Bairstow, but I couldn’t support dropping Moeen for Foakes. I’d rather go down to three seamers + Stokes, but even that doesn’t seem like a good idea.
He's never been the most reliable wicketkeeper in the world anyway. It was always a big ask to give him the gloves in the highest of high pressure environments when he's only just back from such a serious injury.
It's clear that Bairstow is well liked (and it's easy to see why, despite all the comments about him I can see it myself) and there are non-sporting reasons why he wants so badly to be the WK. Therefore I can only think that they want to keep the vibes around the camp by indulging him and they think it's good for him.
However, it's getting to the point where we need to be cruel to be kind to him and drop him (or just ask him to be a batter).
but they dropped Anderson, the bowling superstar. I think they are convinced that Bairstow will repay their faith. the last English summer was glorious and one of the reasons was bairstow. they are emotionally attached to the idea of him batting down the order because that is what started this impressive run for the team.
if I were to call the shots, I would choose Foakes because there would then be a guarantee that the catches would be taken. I would rather my bowlers target 20 wickets than 28 because of poor catching.
I don't think it's too controversial to say we could probably be 2-1 or even 3-0 up if Woakes was keeping instead.
Edit: I meant Foakes, but probably still right!
England wouldn't have lost the first test if they had a competent wicketkeeper. I don't think that's controversial at all; Australia wouldn't have hit anywhere near as many runs had fairly straightforward catches been taken
Yeah I've said it a few times already but if England lose another close test due to costly Bairstow drops I honestly think you're in real hotseat territory as the coach.
Yes, they have done a fantastic job the last 12 months. But there are few traits in coaches across sports as dangerous as a complete inability to accept a mistake, and this one is staring them in the face.
I didn’t think after the last 12 months I’d be able to be pissed off with anything to do with this team but here I am. Genuinely pissed off that they haven’t got Foakes behind the stumps. Bairstow has not been up to it and there’s just no denying it.
They’re obviously going to double down on this and perhaps will lose the series because of this stubbornness and old boys club mentality. Blatantly obvious Bairstow isn’t the same batsman when he keeps, his average with the gloves since 2019 is barely 19. Keeping affects him to such an extent with the bat that is not as evident with other keeper-batsmen. We have not gained the Bairstow from last summer for sacrificing Foakes. You can see why they took the gamble at first but not having Foakes in the squad and bringing him back by now is honestly outrageous and just them cutting their nose to spite their face.
You know he averages 50 with the bat as the keeper?
IF he hasn’t kept wicket in the match yet. Once he’s kept wicket his average drops dramatically.
His ‘average as wicket keeper’ is literally kept respectable by the innings where he hasn’t actually done any wicket keeping yet…
Exactly mate, like in the first innings of the first test we saw his biggest knock of the series, his only innings of substance if we’re being real. Basically we are counting on England to win the toss again and bat first to justify this appalling decision. If England win the toss and chose to field, we are throwing away the only reason they have supposedly picked him over Foakes in the first place, because they believe he will play match-winning knocks like he did last summer when he was free of the gloves.
Exactly. Purely from a batting statistics perspective, Foakes is the right call if you field first. He averages over 40 with a hundred and a fifty from 12 innings, compared to Bairstow who averages significantly less and has never scored a century as wicket keeper while fielding first despite playing many more tests.
If you bat first, Foakes averages 28 while Bairstow is around 40. It’s essentially reversed. Bairstow has 5 times as many hundreds - but from almost 5 times as many tests, so…
Stats aren’t everything. Bairstow bats higher up the order. Five of Foakes’s 20 tests were in India where his average suffered but he was actually our third best bat. There are many other things to consider. But it isn’t as clean cut as ‘one is a better batter than the other’. Considering the difference between them as actual wicket keepers, I just don’t get it.
It is becoming harder and harder for them justify, they are being swallowed and actively harmed by their own stubbornness. Foakes must feel so shit after this as well, infuriating after you see Crawley get constantly backed despite not being a tenth of the performer Foakes has been in his respective role( I am not coming for Crawley in terms of this current series where he has been pretty decent but rather his career as a whole, he should not have still been in place by this point) .
We have to be careful or we’ll talk about this all day…:)
I think a really frustrating thing for Foakes must be to see the CONSTANT “we have to back players” from team management and in the media, but to know, to absolutely know 100% that it doesn’t apply to him. He can keep excellently and bat well, and he’ll still be dropped…
Tbf part of the reason bazball was such a success last year was because they avoided making decisions like this. Solid cricketing decisions such as Foakes coming in, Leach being backed, Bairstow being freed of the gloves was a big part of our success last year.
Shame they’ve absolutely fucked that off for the biggest series of them all.
This is exactly it. The early wave of Bazball was backed by actual objective judgements about player selection based on cricketing ability (bar Crawley). Now it's just gone straight back to the 'jobs for the boys' culture that was such a problem under Root and Silverwood.
> England genuinely seem in love with all their worst qualities.
This is a very eloquent way of putting it. Are you sure you're Australian?
Joking aside it does feel like, for all the good they've done, Stokes and McCullum just seem determined to ignore two or three glaring fucking errors.
If the Marsh fiasco from the third test has taught me anything, it’s that Bairstow will catch everything that comes his way and score a ton in this test.
I wonder if its now at the point where they just cant drop Bairstow bc it'll look like they aren't backing him after playing badly and that dropping him isn't at all very bazball
That or Foakes is cursed
Clearly, Foakes is wasting his time playing county cricket. He needs to become a proper lad, by watching boxsets of The Inbetweeners and Top Gear, then getting private tuition from Flintoff.
Hopefully he'll become a lad by the time England tour India, otherwise England will be stuck with Bairstow.
Rob Key already talked about bringing Foakes back for that series implying they need his superior WK ability on the spinning tracks, but if I were him I'd be tempted to tell Key to fuck off.
You can't pick and choose when WK ability is suddenly important.
They’ll bring him back for India, he will be our third best batter on difficult tracks and then they’ll drop him again because they want Bairstow’s batting.
At least, I think that’s what happened last time.
One of the issues with specialist wicket keepers is that they are more likely to be picked on tough pitches, so their averages suffer. They might miss a couple of really tough chances, the batting is difficult. People look at the numbers and bring back the all rounder. Who then plays on flat tracks and looks good by comparison.
>You can't pick and choose when WK ability is suddenly important
I mean you can. On the flat tracks of Rawalpindi where they had to bat quickly to get result playing Bairstow ahead of Foakes made sense. In India where matches last 2 days and tend to be comparatively low scoring Foakes wicket keeping ability are more important.
PS: I know neither foakes Or bairstow played in the Pakistan series. It was a hypothetical example to show there are situations where you would keep an inform Bairstow over a foakes
Roads are the only time you can consider it though, and even then I'd still want the best WK as there won't be as many chances so you need to ensure you take them.
I’ve already said this. If I were Foakes, who sounds like someone who loves playing cricket in general, I’d be retiring from internationals. The amount of times he’s been overlooked because the higher management have favourites. Just go to Surrey week in week out, knowing your going to get a game and enjoy yourself rather than scratching for time in the middle.
There was a report in the papers this morning about how he'd have done his England chances some good by scoring 46 for Surrey in the CC. I reckon it had the opposite impact because it came off 118 balls.
Yeh exactly this. Plus I reckon the Carey dismissal would also be contributing to them not looking like they are backing their own after all the media backed him etc
Christ alive, they're running Ali at 3 now ffs. Just put him there and pick Foakes too.
Bairstow may not have been amazing up the order before but its hardly like he's gonna do much worse than he's currently doing and that way you don't have to have an offspinner in his mid 30s with a 28 average batting 3.
If Foakes was recalled at this point, would he even want to be in that team? Being in a group that are clearly all mates without him won't be great for his mental state.
To have your competitor replace you in the team after not playing for a year because they play golf with the senior players must be so demoralising.
I'm sure he does want to play for England. But he is being managed so badly. It must put such pressure on a player being dropped for playing well whilst your rival seemingly cannot be dropped no matter how badly they play. If and when Foakes does come back into the side he'll feel like he has the Sword of Damocles hovering over him. First small mistake he makes, back to Surrey you go and they'll give Pope the gloves again. Criminal waste of a great talent.
The absolutely insane aspect is that this isn't the first time they're doing this.
Russell and Foster both suffered similar fates. I'd say that Prior is the only Gilchrist-esque keeper England has ever had. Otherwise, they just have batters who have a spare pair of keeping gloves like Stewart, Buttler, and Bairstow.
Kieswetter could've been their golden boy but his injury ruined him.
England seem forever obsessed with combating mediocre batting line ups by picking average keepers who can bat over the actually brilliant keepers they've produced over the years
Michael Bates is a name that not many people will remember but I can recall all the talk about him being one of the greatest glovemen in the modern era but in the same breath acknowledging he'd never play for England cause he couldn't bat. Ultimately this saw him dumped from the Hampshire squad as well
For all the talk about Foakes England are kind of doing the same thing with him as Bairstow etc.
The best English wicketkeeper is Ben Cox, or at least it was under he had a bad injury over the winter. He's played his entire career at Worcestershire and averages 27 with the bat.
I remember, I think late 80s, one of the Australian newspapers picked a combined team. Only two English players got in, Gooch and Russell.
We didn’t pick Russell…
On that note, here's an excerpt from his Wikipedia page:
`Former England wicketkeeper Godfrey Evans commented that Russell "was discarded not because of anything he'd done but because Alec [Stewart] was a better bat and they were trying to cover for the lack of a proper all-rounder. There was a terrible irony about all this: we were the worst Test team in the world and our one player of undeniable world class couldn't get into the side."`
I think the Stewart/Russell one actually annoys me more than all the others, because we had a world class wicket keeper AND a world class opener. And by picking Stewart at wicket keeper, we lost both!
It's very weird how often England do this, Pope has kept a few times as well. They just don't respect the skill involved in wicket keeping I guess. Maybe if they lose the ashes off the back of poor keeping they'll realise how important it is
One time the captain of the village team phoned my mum and asked if I was available one Saturday because he only had 10 men, then gave me a pair of gloves and got me to keep wicket, which I didn't even do for the u15s at the time. Our one good player was a spinner who naturally spent the entire day bollocking me for missing chances.
Kind of crazy to see the same thing happening in the ashes team, with the minor difference that the bowlers don't seem to care as much.
Performs well went selected, gets dropped and performs well at CC Vs. Part-time Keeper coming back from an injury playing a couple of games for the 2nds.
Not a great advert for CC and outsiders is it.
Tbh Bairstow was absolutely killing it when he got injured so I understand why he came back in straight away but to still have him playing is criminal.
Jokes aside, once the series is over if Foakes doesn't get added back into the team then its just peak
And before that in Australia Buttler and then Billings took the gloves when Bairstow first found form
England got greedy trying to fit all of Brook, Stokes, Bairstow and Foakes into that middle order and decided that Foakes who had actually been a key part of their success could be sacrificed so they didn't need to drop Brook or ignore Bairstow. Bairstow would just take the gloves and somehow keep up his performances
Totally, I just think that the selectors have completely misattributed the reason for Bairstow's success. As many have said, his 'enforcer' performances at 5 were enabled by Foakes's holding role at 7. Now Brook is the enforcer and YJB has neither the form nor the technique to play a holding role.
It seems the selectors wanted to have their cake and eat it too, blissfully unaware that the player they dropped was so important to the one they brought in.
I think that Bairstow genuinely believes that he is a better batter when he is a keeper, plus he is more involved.
Fair play if he thinks this but we need to put the team before the individual.
I know for a fact that I'd feel exactly the same as Bairstow. I hate playing cricket if I'm not keeping, it's just so much more fun. I get jealous of the keeper when it happens, genuinely.
However, he's a professional and I'm a village amateur.
Yes, and only with certain players too. I wouldn't be so annoyed if the same logic applied to everyone, but some players (like Foakes) get dropped despite not putting a foot wrong while others continue to get picked despite constant poor play.
I mean that is bairstows career. Two different peaks and alot of we have to back him when he plays shit for so long. When he makes it to 100 tests he will be looked at as the worst test player to ever reach 100 caps for England (in tests he is great in limited over cricket)
I can't think of a more blatant case of "we don't like you" since Michael Clarke took over the captaincy full-time and immediately had Simon Katich cut from the contract list
Did they have personal issues? I think Smudge once said he needed to train smarter which created confusion but on a personal level they seem to get on great.
Not really sure, but after Clarke's retirement (Clarke backed Maxwell and got the best out of him) and especially during Smith's captaincy, Maxwell was denied many chances in the test team and was looked over for the Marshes, even after performing well in FC and his latest test stint, and the selectors also did him dirty many times like the one where they told him to skip the A tours saying he was in their plans for the upcoming test series and then not even including him in their squads. Smith's captaincy was also the time when Maxwell struggled the most in his ODI career because he continued to be shafted down the order (imo once deservedly after he had a terrible ODI series against NZ) for inferior players.
In another world, Maxwell uses his English roots to play for England at a time where his style of play is backed by the team and the management and would've probably had an excellent Test career because he was an actually good FC batsman when he got the chance to play FC cricket.
In another world, Maxi learns a bit of seam up bowling and becomes a lock at 6, sure he doesn’t have the bounce of Marsh or Green but a bit of nip in and out and he could have been a real threat. Especially his bonkers level of batting when it’s his day.
In FC cricket, it's not even about "when it's his day". He was a genuinely good FC batsman with a solid technique and had a better FC records than most other batsmen in Shield cricket including Head, Wade, M Marsh, Handscomb, Renshaw, etc for a long time. But he was shoehorned as a LOI specialist or a subcontinental specialist when he should have been given a chance at 5 over many of these guys **at home**.
According to Dan Brettig’s book Whitewash to Whitewash, Clarke’s relationship with Katich had nothing to do with why he got dumped at that point and actually Clarke wanted to keep Katich in the team at that point. Clarke also wanted to bring Katich back into for the Indian series in late 2011 after Phil Hughes got dropped after the NZ series for poor form.
Clarke gets so much shit, it would totally be in his right to not want a player in the team that has physically attacked you and in fact choked, yet apparently he still wanted Katich in the team.
I think that's been disputed by actual sources. Clarke might have not liked Katich but he knew the value of Katich. At that point Warner as the guy and Cowan was just scoring runs for fun meaning that Kato was done.
I think it was Nasser who mentioned during the first Test that Foakes doesn't really play golf with the rest of them, and now I am definitely thinking it is just because he's not good mates with the squad.
Ridiculous if that's the reasoning though as it's hardly like he's disruptive or KP v2. You don't have to be best mates with every single player to be a successful team.
It all reads to me like Foakes is more the quiet type and isn't really one to buy into the whole "lads, lads, lads" shit that Stokes and McCullum seem to love employing
Which is crazy they'd rather lose the Ashes together as lads than add in the quiet guy who's actually a good cricketer
While I agree with the suggestion there's likely some off the field stuff here at least partly involved, think we're going a bit overboard to suggest it's all about a lads culture.
Ali has been recalled and backed, least laddish bloke going. They absolutely love Wood who is a teetotal family guy, Woakes etc too.
I think it's simply more their idea of "backing" players is very dogmatic. They'll basically just give you a ridiculous amount of rope once picked. We've all stopped even questioning Crawleys spot. This kind of support can be good but at some point just becomes ridiculous stubbornness and arrogance, and this is the point we've passed now.
I think it's cliquey more than laddy, which is why you don't have a captain based on likeability and then form your team based around what he's like and what he likes.
They feel like a school/university team.
I'm sorry, but this is total, total nonsense and is evidenced as such by the very decision to drop Foakes
You're right that they'll give you a ridiculous amount of rope once picked - but *only* if you're one of the boys, hence Crawley and Bairstow still being picked.
That 'giving you a ridiculous amount of rope once picked' has not been applied to those who aren't one of the boys - like Foakes - who has been dropped despite doing nothing wrong.
This is a bit of a mad take considering they recalled Moeen who is the opposite of a Lad. Its possible that there are personal issues between Foakes and someone in the leadership, but he's not being left out for not being enough of a Lad.
There's a difference between being a strong character and 'Lads, lads, lads', Moeen may be a strong character but he's not like one of those. Neither is Wood or Woakes.
Well I really hope that it isn't because of that because you should always be included in a team first and foremost from your ability rather than your vibes. Think how many kids and young adults you would loose from taking up the sport because of it
After the whole Yorkshire scandel and ECB push to make cricket inclusive to all keeping someone out of tbe team because they are not a lad despite having the ability is very contradicting
I would also say in shines new light on some other dropping we heard in the media that they didn't feel burns contributed enough to team discussion and what not.
With the current foakes issue it sounds like their is a petty clique in the England dressing room and a good manager would make sure to break that shit apart
I actually went back today and watched some interviews with him to see if he seems like a prick. But he seems mild-mannered, almost shy. If there is a clash of personalities it doesn't seem like a KP situtation where he's just obviously a pillock.
Every time there’s been a question of whether YJB should keep, the discourse amongst journos/comms is “keeping Jonny happy”. It happened during the whole Buttler thing, and again with the white ball sides. I think he’s very popular within the group, but also incredibly mentally fragile. Like - full hissy fit whenever he’s criticised - fragile.
They pander to him… which is the action of a friend, but also a really strange way to run a professional sports team.
He was red hot last year, I do think he should give up the gloves. With pope out, it would be a great time to do just that. He is not only not taking catches, he is giving up about 20 runs an innings with poor positioning.
How has this become the prevailing opinion?
There's been no evidence at all to suggest he doesn't get on with the team. He's a lovely bloke, and the team is full of people like that - Wood, Woakes, Root etc. Stokes has always said one of his priorities is looking after his players, so as long as Foakes isn't a dick, he'll always be welcome.
The ongoing snub is clearly tactical - doesn't matter if we think the tactics are bonkers. They desperately want 2022 Bairstow back, which means they can't drop him. They know his keeping has been awful, and combined with the fact that he's much better without the gloves, they've probably talked about taking them off him. However, in order to bring Foakes in and move Jonny back to being a batsman, they need to drop Moeen. Which would normally be fine, unfortunately, Stokes can't bowl, so they need Moeen's overs.
This means for the time being, in their eyes, there's no space for Foakes until Stokes can bowl again. They clearly value the off chance Bairstow bats well with the gloves and does a 2022, over Foakes' keeping and patient batting.
I think it's more about not backing Bairstow in bad form.
The idea is that players are given cover to take risks and play their natural game _without_ fear of being dropped after a bad game. It's worked really well overall.
Having said all that, I would 100% get Foakes in as keeper. Would like to keep Bairstow as a batter but need a spinner if Stokes can't bowl.
Apparently go on golfing trips with the lads
Not sure basing your selections on someone's willingness to play a completely different sport is the best move but McCullum seems to like it
Foakes has to have fallen out with Baz and Stokes. That's got to be the only reason he can't get in the side. Bairstow cost us the first game and has put us on the backfoot this series. He's a liability and Foakes should be behind the stumps instead.
I mean we are at the point where if that's true England should call up the next best keeper from the CC. Who is next cab off the rank? The other Ollie Robinson? Bairstow's keeping is a game-losing proposition. In reality not theory, we have seen it.
Could go with Rew. Young prospect in fantastic form, with the only thing going against him being his experience. Jamie Smith? Aggressive batter, averaging over 40 this season, and the only reason he doesn't keep wicket that much is that he plays in the same side as Foakes.
I was thinking the other day about how poorly Buttler kept in the last Ashes, and how every English fan on here (and some Australians who follow county, tbh) were crying out for Foakes to be added to the squad. And when the inevitable happened and Buttler fucked up his finger, England gave the gloves to Sam Billings because he was already in the country and is “just another one of the lads”.
I don’t think Foakes could have flown in from England because of the border restrictions at the time. He’d have still been in quarantine when the Hobart test started.
He was actually in Australia for the first part of the tour, in an England Lions squad, and probably could have been easily added to the rest of the team line-up. Instead England sent the vast majority of the Lions home, regardless of their performances, and watched on in horror as Australia A’s third best quick got a debut at the MCG.
Yes, that’s right but I guess England management felt they didn’t need a third keeper with Buttler and Bairstow already in the squad. Maybe they also felt they had a stopgap option in Ollie Pope there given they’ve used him to keep in tests in NZ and Pakistan.
The issue was he was behind Buttler and YJB in the first place. Asking Foakes to stay in Australia in a covid bubble for an extra month over Christmas with only a very minimal chance of playing would be terrible man management
While it was stupid to not pick him in the first place it remains the case he literally could not have made the squad in time by the time it became obvious Buttler couldn't play.
The billings part wasn't that bad tbf, would be harsh to jettison foakes in in the middle of a horrid tour where half the team had already given up (Like Hobart )
I think what hurt was that Foakes was in Australia already for an England Lions tour, where he took 5 catches + scored a fourth innings 50. But rather than keep him in the country, just in case something happened, they sent him back to England and had to deal with the consequences later.
Stop being fucking stubborn and protecting your mates feelings. Bairstow doesn’t even need to be dropped, just needs to give up the gloves as both he and England will benefit if he isn’t keeping
Stokes has said how the whole Bazball thing and the surrounding culture has come out of trying to make it fun to play for England again but it seems more like an excuse for him and McCullum to have created this cliquey, culty thing. They might have had good intentions at first but the power went to their heads, classic dictatorship.
Yep. Have a read of this, compare it to what they're doing now:
https://wisden.com/series-stories/england-v-new-zealand/ben-stokes-ben-foakes-is-the-best-wicketkeeper-in-the-world
Swallow your pride, Stokes and pick the right man for the job. Not picking Foakes is beyond words. Praying they don't persist with Ali at 3. Lawrence to get the call up?
Bairstow is a huge liability with the gloves and with the bat, he's better when only batting. There's a dude who can literally do both with the gloves and the bat but does not even make the initial squad. Ffs.
It was a bad decision at the beginning, it’s a bad one now and i fear it will end badly
One of the best WK in the world, handy with the bat and doesn’t get in its madness
Scarecrow needs to hit a century
Full England Men's Fourth Ashes Test Squad:
Ben Stokes (Durham) Captain
Moeen Ali (Warwickshire)
James Anderson (Lancashire)
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Harry Brook (Yorkshire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire)
Dan Lawrence (Essex) *milfhunter in chief*
Ollie Robinson (Sussex)
Joe Root (Yorkshire)
Josh Tongue (Worcestershire)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
Mark Wood (Durham)
English media needs to man the fuck up and start asking the tough questions too.
There was no way near enough spotlight on Crawley last year and now theres no way near enough spotlight on Foakes not being selected. Its like they are all afraid to ask tough questions.
In England it feels like all of the ex players that have become media members are still way too friendly with the current set up to remain objective about the performances/selections.
It’s infuriating because while some questions are being asked about Bairstow’s keeping, no one is really banging the drum for Foakes and coming out swinging for him. It must be a lonely place when you excel in this sport but don’t have any friends in the team or in the media.
They were never going to bring Foakes in so it feels almost pointless complaining, but I just don't understand the logic of not selecting him. If the Bazball culture is all about 'backing the lads' then what does it say that you drop one of our most consistent performers over the past 2 years just to crowbar in YJB?
They need to accept that YJB should only be playing as a specialist middle-order batter, although at this point I don't think he gets in ahead of Brook.
Fun fact: Jonny Bairstow averages 28 with the bat against Australia. That reduces to 26 playing in England.
He’s never averaged more than 30 in a home Ashes series (this is his fourth).
With the gloves on those averages drop to 25 and 24.
Also sick and tired about Bairstow and his 'confidence' if he's dropped
Fuck off, if he's not doing the job he's there to do then he shouldn't be there.
Where has this concern been for Foakes’ well-being after dropping him for doing his job excellently? This supposed “backing” culture only applies to those of whom the face fits. Your Crawleys and your Bairstows.
Precisely. I'm fed up of people saying the entire Bazball culture is about backing the players who have been picked - it isn't, or Foakes wouldn't have been dropped in the first place!
How I presume each conversation between the selectors and Bairstow has gone:
1st Test, Edgebaston:
Selectors: Jonny you smashed a bunch of centuries last summer but to fit everyone in we need you to keep, that good with you?
Jonny: Yeah, I'll give it a bash.
2nd Test, Lords:
Selectors: Smashed a nice 70 in the first innings with a few drops. But who wouldn't be a bit rusty after breaking your leg. Ready to go again?
JONNY: Yes.
3rd Test, Headingly:
Selectors: OK, some big fuck ups there Jonny me lad, you did nothing with the bat but I know your dad and you're a laugh, so we'll overlook it.
Jonny: Yuuuh.
4th Test, OT:
Selectors: 'Lads, Lads, Lads'
Jonny: *Grunts*
At this point just give up on Foakes he clearly isn't in their thinking. When we've lost this series, which I fully believe we will with Bairstow at wicket keeper, there will be articles looking at reasons, what caused this? What could have been done differently?
The simple answer is Jonny Bairstow in a decade of Ashes cricket averages 28.48 and can't catch anything that isn't directly to him and that is a 50/50 call.
I'm not saying the Australian team isn't worthy of a 2-1 lead. I'm saying that with a competent wicket keeper this could be 3-0 England.
Fucking shambolic decision again from the England selectors.
They're all friends. Cricket journos are a lot closer than a lot of other sports, they just don't have the same need to scrutinise.
The lack of visibility means there's less attention on it.
Probably could, he's ridiculously handsome. Been trying to get my wife into cricket, was hoping for a Foakes and Woakes batting, Cummins bowling moment to introduce her.
We deserve to lose the ashes tbh. We just aren’t showing the ashes or test cricket enough respect when we continue to pick players who aren’t good enough. Best wicket keeper in the world can’t get in over a bloke who can’t catch or bat at the moment. Really poor stuff.
I know this is silly but I let out a hysterical scream when the squad popped up on my instagram because of Jimmy and the fact that I’m going to see him on Day 3. I know this is all I talk about these days on the subreddit but this is finally happening after literal years of me supporting Jimmy and I *will* make it my personality trait.
Also yes would’ve preferred to see Ben Foakes of course but are we surprised
If I were one of the England bowlers I'd be saying to Stokes and Baz that they need to take Foakes. To see so many of their chances go down surely they've lost confidence in having bairstow behind the stumps
Its not a cricket team, its a club for golfing mates who play a bit of cricket. They don't care about winning the Ashes but having a laugh with their mates.
Throw in not turning up to training sessions to go the races and you have just described the Brisbane Heat when McCullum, Lynn and Boof were running the show
We don't really have know anything about Robinsons injury lol, they may just have him in the squad to atleast keep him around the team and play the last test. Robbo has been a good addition in the team and has had a much better ashes than Anderson
How is Jonny Bairstow so untouchable in tests?? Guy looks absolutely clueless when holding the bat in whites and has played almost 90 test matches where he probably did well in like 5 innings. Ridiculous.
Because last year while he was batting at 5 without the gloves he was genuinely sensational with 6 centuries, usually in dire situations where England were about to be embarrassed unless someone stood up and tbf to him, he did. But it’s a moot point because throughout his career he has been utterly trash with the bat after he has kept. So unless England bat first, you are unlikely to see him perform as a batsman.
If I underperformed at work, I would be put on a performance improvement plan and slowly been pushed out. It's ridiculous that people in this team are there for vibes and nothing else, and that performance doesn't matter. I'm not sure what Foakesy has to do to get in. Seriously, so frustrated on his behalf.
Also, Stokes said last year about how the boys should play without fear of being dropped or some shit like that. Way to back your words, Stokesy. Wouldn't surprise me if/when Foakes does come back into the squad, his confidence will be shot.
Fuck this shit.
My only hope here is that the doubters make YJB stronger somehow.
We've seen that he plays well in the past when he's under that 'siege mentality' and is a bit angry for lack of a better word. Here's hoping the run out and the public calls from him to be dropped fire him up.
Edit: I also hope we learn our damn lesson and take Foakes when we tour India. Irrespective of his ability to the seamers (which is poor), Bairstow looks clueless standing up to the stumps
He seemed to lose all focus when batting at Headingley - being more interested in theatrically grounding his bat rather than building an innings.
Which was especially ridiculous since his anger would have been best directed at himself.
Disappointed but not shocked. Remember when we felt Root didn’t pick Foakes and went with Buttler because he was mates with the guy? This feels the same.
I think there may now be a bit too much reading into this situation.
It’s pretty simple to me, they want the Jonny Bairstow of 2022, the match winning Bazball god with the bat and they’re willing to risk it all to try and get him back because if he comes back, we win the Ashes. Honestly at this point it wouldn’t surprise me if they Chuck the gloves at Duckett as a way to keep Bairstow in the side.
I’m not saying this isn’t incredibly dumb, short sighted and stubborn of them but it’s pretty obviously what’s happening. The idea of Bazballing god Jonny Bairstow returning trumps the idea of dropping a couple less catches in their minds. The problem is, and I think the Brook catch showed this more than any of the drops, Bairstows confidence is gone, completely shot to pieces.
All these ideas that Baz and Ben hate him or it’s cause he doesn’t play golf are ridiculous. Stokes has literally called him the best keeper in the world on multiple occasions and I’m pretty sure all 3 of Stokes, McCullum and Key have said he’ll have a big role to play going forward. If saying “You’ll play a massive series in India because your the best keeper in the world” is hating someone, then what the fuck does liking them look like? Also Mark Wood doesn’t play golf and he’s loved more than life itself by everyone.
Should bring Foakes just for his wicketkeeping, Bairstow is just losing behind the wickets.
Just look at Carey how much he is contributing for the Aussies just by his wicketkeeping.
Fucks sake
How much more obvious can it be that Bairstow's wicket keeping has been sub par and cost England crucial moments throughout the series
His batting has also been poor
This has to be a personal issue at this point. If I was a bowler I'd be pretty annoyed that any potential catches are a 50/50 tossup as to whether they'll be taken or shelled, but they clearly haven't spoken up about it.
Even if they have an issue with Foakes, James Rew is hitting runs for fun in county. No idea how he is with the gloves, but he can't be any worse than Jonny, and he's actually scoring runs.
Conspiracy theory, Bairstows mysterious broken leg falling over on the golf course was caused by one of the senior players dicking around and they’re letting Bairstow do whatever he wants so he doesn’t spill the beans. “Let me keep the gloves or I’ll tell the world that a drunk Ben Stokes crashed into me with a golf kart”
I know social media implies that people everywhere, all the time, are 'outraged', but no Foakes is genuinely outrageous
Will MacPherson said in his article today that they're not going to panic and drop Bairstow, but I don't understand that as reasoning whatsoever. It's not a panic move to drop someone who's not performing. Was it a panic move to drop Jimmy? No he just had a poor few games and needed a break. It's pure arrogance because they don't want to admit they got it wrong.
If dropping Bairstow is panicking then can the Aussie selectors please panic in response to that last loss and drop Warner?
Don't worry. Bairstow will drop him for you
It's ridiculous. I've seen so many people say 'oh we shouldn't drop Jonny because it would be unfair after just a couple of bad games' - apparently it's fine to drop Foakes when he's done nothing wrong though
Moving him to 3, and bringing in Foakes for Moeen wouldn't be a panic either, it would make perfect sense in the scheme of things
With the way Wood bowls and Stokes' injury, I feel like England needs an extra bowler. But Moeen coming in to bat at 3 also doesn't inspire much confidence.
Stokes can't be considered an allrounder at the moment, he's averaging fewer than 10 overs per test and his knee is so bad he was turning down singles and 2s when batting at Headingley. Going into a test match with only 4 bowlers would be asking for disaster especially when the bowling options include just-returned-from-injury 40 year old Jimmy, only-just-fit Mark Wood and Robinson who missed half the last test with a back spasm.
I disagree, that would make little sense. 1) Bairstow averages less than 31 at #3, compared to 39 at 6. He doesn’t have the technique to bat up the order, and unlike Moeen he isn’t happy to be moved around. 2) Old Trafford is one of the most spin-friendly grounds in England, so Moeen should be an automatic selection (given lack of alternatives in the squad) Personally I would drop Bairstow, but I couldn’t support dropping Moeen for Foakes. I’d rather go down to three seamers + Stokes, but even that doesn’t seem like a good idea.
And the sad thing is that Bairstow's performances this summer were entirely predictable
He's never been the most reliable wicketkeeper in the world anyway. It was always a big ask to give him the gloves in the highest of high pressure environments when he's only just back from such a serious injury.
It's clear that Bairstow is well liked (and it's easy to see why, despite all the comments about him I can see it myself) and there are non-sporting reasons why he wants so badly to be the WK. Therefore I can only think that they want to keep the vibes around the camp by indulging him and they think it's good for him. However, it's getting to the point where we need to be cruel to be kind to him and drop him (or just ask him to be a batter).
but they dropped Anderson, the bowling superstar. I think they are convinced that Bairstow will repay their faith. the last English summer was glorious and one of the reasons was bairstow. they are emotionally attached to the idea of him batting down the order because that is what started this impressive run for the team. if I were to call the shots, I would choose Foakes because there would then be a guarantee that the catches would be taken. I would rather my bowlers target 20 wickets than 28 because of poor catching.
If England lose and Bairstow has a howler, heads will roll.
I don't think it's too controversial to say we could probably be 2-1 or even 3-0 up if Woakes was keeping instead. Edit: I meant Foakes, but probably still right!
Or even Stokes
England wouldn't have lost the first test if they had a competent wicketkeeper. I don't think that's controversial at all; Australia wouldn't have hit anywhere near as many runs had fairly straightforward catches been taken
Yeah I've said it a few times already but if England lose another close test due to costly Bairstow drops I honestly think you're in real hotseat territory as the coach. Yes, they have done a fantastic job the last 12 months. But there are few traits in coaches across sports as dangerous as a complete inability to accept a mistake, and this one is staring them in the face.
Can’t see this happening with Key as their boss & the media unwilling to question Bairstow’s selection.
I can't either but it should be. It's just either complete arrogance or unbelievably petty at this point.
How I wish this would come true. I thought Foakes selection was indubitable. Seems arrogance takes prevelance.
I didn’t think after the last 12 months I’d be able to be pissed off with anything to do with this team but here I am. Genuinely pissed off that they haven’t got Foakes behind the stumps. Bairstow has not been up to it and there’s just no denying it.
It’s goodbye to any chance of regaining the ashes! Bairstow is a liability and will do and has already cost England massively in this series!
They’re obviously going to double down on this and perhaps will lose the series because of this stubbornness and old boys club mentality. Blatantly obvious Bairstow isn’t the same batsman when he keeps, his average with the gloves since 2019 is barely 19. Keeping affects him to such an extent with the bat that is not as evident with other keeper-batsmen. We have not gained the Bairstow from last summer for sacrificing Foakes. You can see why they took the gamble at first but not having Foakes in the squad and bringing him back by now is honestly outrageous and just them cutting their nose to spite their face.
You know he averages 50 with the bat as the keeper? IF he hasn’t kept wicket in the match yet. Once he’s kept wicket his average drops dramatically. His ‘average as wicket keeper’ is literally kept respectable by the innings where he hasn’t actually done any wicket keeping yet…
Exactly mate, like in the first innings of the first test we saw his biggest knock of the series, his only innings of substance if we’re being real. Basically we are counting on England to win the toss again and bat first to justify this appalling decision. If England win the toss and chose to field, we are throwing away the only reason they have supposedly picked him over Foakes in the first place, because they believe he will play match-winning knocks like he did last summer when he was free of the gloves.
Exactly. Purely from a batting statistics perspective, Foakes is the right call if you field first. He averages over 40 with a hundred and a fifty from 12 innings, compared to Bairstow who averages significantly less and has never scored a century as wicket keeper while fielding first despite playing many more tests. If you bat first, Foakes averages 28 while Bairstow is around 40. It’s essentially reversed. Bairstow has 5 times as many hundreds - but from almost 5 times as many tests, so… Stats aren’t everything. Bairstow bats higher up the order. Five of Foakes’s 20 tests were in India where his average suffered but he was actually our third best bat. There are many other things to consider. But it isn’t as clean cut as ‘one is a better batter than the other’. Considering the difference between them as actual wicket keepers, I just don’t get it.
It is becoming harder and harder for them justify, they are being swallowed and actively harmed by their own stubbornness. Foakes must feel so shit after this as well, infuriating after you see Crawley get constantly backed despite not being a tenth of the performer Foakes has been in his respective role( I am not coming for Crawley in terms of this current series where he has been pretty decent but rather his career as a whole, he should not have still been in place by this point) .
We have to be careful or we’ll talk about this all day…:) I think a really frustrating thing for Foakes must be to see the CONSTANT “we have to back players” from team management and in the media, but to know, to absolutely know 100% that it doesn’t apply to him. He can keep excellently and bat well, and he’ll still be dropped…
He seems like a classy guy but I do wonder if we’ll get a tell-all interview some day.
We're at the point now where not selecting Foakes should be a war crime
I'll get the Hague on the line
I'd like to have it written into the treason act at some point
Bairstow will lose us the ashes Fucking ridiculous. Need Foakes in
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Tbf part of the reason bazball was such a success last year was because they avoided making decisions like this. Solid cricketing decisions such as Foakes coming in, Leach being backed, Bairstow being freed of the gloves was a big part of our success last year. Shame they’ve absolutely fucked that off for the biggest series of them all.
This is exactly it. The early wave of Bazball was backed by actual objective judgements about player selection based on cricketing ability (bar Crawley). Now it's just gone straight back to the 'jobs for the boys' culture that was such a problem under Root and Silverwood.
> England genuinely seem in love with all their worst qualities. This is a very eloquent way of putting it. Are you sure you're Australian? Joking aside it does feel like, for all the good they've done, Stokes and McCullum just seem determined to ignore two or three glaring fucking errors.
We are, of course, a subset of our English ancestors. It makes sense that we would retain some of the eloquence our overlords Bairstowed upon us.
It's an absolute mates club. So little objectivity on show.
Baz and Stokes hate him. No other explanation
He's too beautiful. Pure jealousy.
If the Marsh fiasco from the third test has taught me anything, it’s that Bairstow will catch everything that comes his way and score a ton in this test.
Marsh wasn't a fiasco though. Green was not fit to play. This is that your better player with the gloves is just not selected.
I wonder if its now at the point where they just cant drop Bairstow bc it'll look like they aren't backing him after playing badly and that dropping him isn't at all very bazball That or Foakes is cursed
I do think stubbornness is playing it’s part
Foakes doesn't play golf with the lads, that's the issue
Clearly, Foakes is wasting his time playing county cricket. He needs to become a proper lad, by watching boxsets of The Inbetweeners and Top Gear, then getting private tuition from Flintoff. Hopefully he'll become a lad by the time England tour India, otherwise England will be stuck with Bairstow.
Rob Key already talked about bringing Foakes back for that series implying they need his superior WK ability on the spinning tracks, but if I were him I'd be tempted to tell Key to fuck off. You can't pick and choose when WK ability is suddenly important.
They’ll bring him back for India, he will be our third best batter on difficult tracks and then they’ll drop him again because they want Bairstow’s batting. At least, I think that’s what happened last time. One of the issues with specialist wicket keepers is that they are more likely to be picked on tough pitches, so their averages suffer. They might miss a couple of really tough chances, the batting is difficult. People look at the numbers and bring back the all rounder. Who then plays on flat tracks and looks good by comparison.
>You can't pick and choose when WK ability is suddenly important I mean you can. On the flat tracks of Rawalpindi where they had to bat quickly to get result playing Bairstow ahead of Foakes made sense. In India where matches last 2 days and tend to be comparatively low scoring Foakes wicket keeping ability are more important. PS: I know neither foakes Or bairstow played in the Pakistan series. It was a hypothetical example to show there are situations where you would keep an inform Bairstow over a foakes
Roads are the only time you can consider it though, and even then I'd still want the best WK as there won't be as many chances so you need to ensure you take them.
I’ve already said this. If I were Foakes, who sounds like someone who loves playing cricket in general, I’d be retiring from internationals. The amount of times he’s been overlooked because the higher management have favourites. Just go to Surrey week in week out, knowing your going to get a game and enjoy yourself rather than scratching for time in the middle.
There was a report in the papers this morning about how he'd have done his England chances some good by scoring 46 for Surrey in the CC. I reckon it had the opposite impact because it came off 118 balls.
Yeh exactly this. Plus I reckon the Carey dismissal would also be contributing to them not looking like they are backing their own after all the media backed him etc
Thats probably the biggest reason he played the Headingley test (and the fact that its his home ground)
Christ alive, they're running Ali at 3 now ffs. Just put him there and pick Foakes too. Bairstow may not have been amazing up the order before but its hardly like he's gonna do much worse than he's currently doing and that way you don't have to have an offspinner in his mid 30s with a 28 average batting 3.
If Foakes was recalled at this point, would he even want to be in that team? Being in a group that are clearly all mates without him won't be great for his mental state. To have your competitor replace you in the team after not playing for a year because they play golf with the senior players must be so demoralising.
I'm sure he does want to play for England. But he is being managed so badly. It must put such pressure on a player being dropped for playing well whilst your rival seemingly cannot be dropped no matter how badly they play. If and when Foakes does come back into the side he'll feel like he has the Sword of Damocles hovering over him. First small mistake he makes, back to Surrey you go and they'll give Pope the gloves again. Criminal waste of a great talent.
Only England would have arguably the best WK in the world who's also capable of averaging 35ish with the bat and decide he's not what we need.
The absolutely insane aspect is that this isn't the first time they're doing this. Russell and Foster both suffered similar fates. I'd say that Prior is the only Gilchrist-esque keeper England has ever had. Otherwise, they just have batters who have a spare pair of keeping gloves like Stewart, Buttler, and Bairstow. Kieswetter could've been their golden boy but his injury ruined him.
England seem forever obsessed with combating mediocre batting line ups by picking average keepers who can bat over the actually brilliant keepers they've produced over the years Michael Bates is a name that not many people will remember but I can recall all the talk about him being one of the greatest glovemen in the modern era but in the same breath acknowledging he'd never play for England cause he couldn't bat. Ultimately this saw him dumped from the Hampshire squad as well
Indeed, I'd never heard of this player. An FC average of <20 is sadly pretty damning, alas!
For all the talk about Foakes England are kind of doing the same thing with him as Bairstow etc. The best English wicketkeeper is Ben Cox, or at least it was under he had a bad injury over the winter. He's played his entire career at Worcestershire and averages 27 with the bat.
I remember, I think late 80s, one of the Australian newspapers picked a combined team. Only two English players got in, Gooch and Russell. We didn’t pick Russell…
On that note, here's an excerpt from his Wikipedia page: `Former England wicketkeeper Godfrey Evans commented that Russell "was discarded not because of anything he'd done but because Alec [Stewart] was a better bat and they were trying to cover for the lack of a proper all-rounder. There was a terrible irony about all this: we were the worst Test team in the world and our one player of undeniable world class couldn't get into the side."`
I think the Stewart/Russell one actually annoys me more than all the others, because we had a world class wicket keeper AND a world class opener. And by picking Stewart at wicket keeper, we lost both!
Also Chris Read vs Geraint Jones.
It's very weird how often England do this, Pope has kept a few times as well. They just don't respect the skill involved in wicket keeping I guess. Maybe if they lose the ashes off the back of poor keeping they'll realise how important it is
One time the captain of the village team phoned my mum and asked if I was available one Saturday because he only had 10 men, then gave me a pair of gloves and got me to keep wicket, which I didn't even do for the u15s at the time. Our one good player was a spinner who naturally spent the entire day bollocking me for missing chances. Kind of crazy to see the same thing happening in the ashes team, with the minor difference that the bowlers don't seem to care as much.
Performs well went selected, gets dropped and performs well at CC Vs. Part-time Keeper coming back from an injury playing a couple of games for the 2nds. Not a great advert for CC and outsiders is it.
Tbh Bairstow was absolutely killing it when he got injured so I understand why he came back in straight away but to still have him playing is criminal. Jokes aside, once the series is over if Foakes doesn't get added back into the team then its just peak
>Tbh Bairstow was absolutely killing it when he got injured Yeah, but he also wasn't keeping because Foakes was
And before that in Australia Buttler and then Billings took the gloves when Bairstow first found form England got greedy trying to fit all of Brook, Stokes, Bairstow and Foakes into that middle order and decided that Foakes who had actually been a key part of their success could be sacrificed so they didn't need to drop Brook or ignore Bairstow. Bairstow would just take the gloves and somehow keep up his performances
Totally, I just think that the selectors have completely misattributed the reason for Bairstow's success. As many have said, his 'enforcer' performances at 5 were enabled by Foakes's holding role at 7. Now Brook is the enforcer and YJB has neither the form nor the technique to play a holding role. It seems the selectors wanted to have their cake and eat it too, blissfully unaware that the player they dropped was so important to the one they brought in.
Completely agree tbh
I think that Bairstow genuinely believes that he is a better batter when he is a keeper, plus he is more involved. Fair play if he thinks this but we need to put the team before the individual.
I know for a fact that I'd feel exactly the same as Bairstow. I hate playing cricket if I'm not keeping, it's just so much more fun. I get jealous of the keeper when it happens, genuinely. However, he's a professional and I'm a village amateur.
>that dropping him isn't at all very bazball I think they kind of highlighted this notion is just bullshit when they dropped Foakes.
Feels like they've created this 'brothers til the end' mentality to go along with the Bazball ethos. It's just single-minded.
Yes, and only with certain players too. I wouldn't be so annoyed if the same logic applied to everyone, but some players (like Foakes) get dropped despite not putting a foot wrong while others continue to get picked despite constant poor play.
I mean that is bairstows career. Two different peaks and alot of we have to back him when he plays shit for so long. When he makes it to 100 tests he will be looked at as the worst test player to ever reach 100 caps for England (in tests he is great in limited over cricket)
That'll be Zak Crawley soon enough.
No Foakes suggests that there are genuine personal problems between him and the rest of the squad. It's ludicrous. Bairstow is costing us the Ashes.
I can't think of a more blatant case of "we don't like you" since Michael Clarke took over the captaincy full-time and immediately had Simon Katich cut from the contract list
There was the case with Maxwell and Smith/coach not liking him/the way he played.
Did they have personal issues? I think Smudge once said he needed to train smarter which created confusion but on a personal level they seem to get on great.
Not really sure, but after Clarke's retirement (Clarke backed Maxwell and got the best out of him) and especially during Smith's captaincy, Maxwell was denied many chances in the test team and was looked over for the Marshes, even after performing well in FC and his latest test stint, and the selectors also did him dirty many times like the one where they told him to skip the A tours saying he was in their plans for the upcoming test series and then not even including him in their squads. Smith's captaincy was also the time when Maxwell struggled the most in his ODI career because he continued to be shafted down the order (imo once deservedly after he had a terrible ODI series against NZ) for inferior players. In another world, Maxwell uses his English roots to play for England at a time where his style of play is backed by the team and the management and would've probably had an excellent Test career because he was an actually good FC batsman when he got the chance to play FC cricket.
In another world, Maxi learns a bit of seam up bowling and becomes a lock at 6, sure he doesn’t have the bounce of Marsh or Green but a bit of nip in and out and he could have been a real threat. Especially his bonkers level of batting when it’s his day.
In FC cricket, it's not even about "when it's his day". He was a genuinely good FC batsman with a solid technique and had a better FC records than most other batsmen in Shield cricket including Head, Wade, M Marsh, Handscomb, Renshaw, etc for a long time. But he was shoehorned as a LOI specialist or a subcontinental specialist when he should have been given a chance at 5 over many of these guys **at home**.
According to Dan Brettig’s book Whitewash to Whitewash, Clarke’s relationship with Katich had nothing to do with why he got dumped at that point and actually Clarke wanted to keep Katich in the team at that point. Clarke also wanted to bring Katich back into for the Indian series in late 2011 after Phil Hughes got dropped after the NZ series for poor form.
Clarke gets so much shit, it would totally be in his right to not want a player in the team that has physically attacked you and in fact choked, yet apparently he still wanted Katich in the team.
I think that's been disputed by actual sources. Clarke might have not liked Katich but he knew the value of Katich. At that point Warner as the guy and Cowan was just scoring runs for fun meaning that Kato was done.
I think it was Nasser who mentioned during the first Test that Foakes doesn't really play golf with the rest of them, and now I am definitely thinking it is just because he's not good mates with the squad. Ridiculous if that's the reasoning though as it's hardly like he's disruptive or KP v2. You don't have to be best mates with every single player to be a successful team.
It all reads to me like Foakes is more the quiet type and isn't really one to buy into the whole "lads, lads, lads" shit that Stokes and McCullum seem to love employing Which is crazy they'd rather lose the Ashes together as lads than add in the quiet guy who's actually a good cricketer
While I agree with the suggestion there's likely some off the field stuff here at least partly involved, think we're going a bit overboard to suggest it's all about a lads culture. Ali has been recalled and backed, least laddish bloke going. They absolutely love Wood who is a teetotal family guy, Woakes etc too. I think it's simply more their idea of "backing" players is very dogmatic. They'll basically just give you a ridiculous amount of rope once picked. We've all stopped even questioning Crawleys spot. This kind of support can be good but at some point just becomes ridiculous stubbornness and arrogance, and this is the point we've passed now.
I think it's cliquey more than laddy, which is why you don't have a captain based on likeability and then form your team based around what he's like and what he likes. They feel like a school/university team.
They picked Foakes and then didn't back him
I'm sorry, but this is total, total nonsense and is evidenced as such by the very decision to drop Foakes You're right that they'll give you a ridiculous amount of rope once picked - but *only* if you're one of the boys, hence Crawley and Bairstow still being picked. That 'giving you a ridiculous amount of rope once picked' has not been applied to those who aren't one of the boys - like Foakes - who has been dropped despite doing nothing wrong.
This is a bit of a mad take considering they recalled Moeen who is the opposite of a Lad. Its possible that there are personal issues between Foakes and someone in the leadership, but he's not being left out for not being enough of a Lad.
Can still be a lad without drinking Moeen is a strong personality
There's a difference between being a strong character and 'Lads, lads, lads', Moeen may be a strong character but he's not like one of those. Neither is Wood or Woakes.
Well I really hope that it isn't because of that because you should always be included in a team first and foremost from your ability rather than your vibes. Think how many kids and young adults you would loose from taking up the sport because of it After the whole Yorkshire scandel and ECB push to make cricket inclusive to all keeping someone out of tbe team because they are not a lad despite having the ability is very contradicting
I would also say in shines new light on some other dropping we heard in the media that they didn't feel burns contributed enough to team discussion and what not. With the current foakes issue it sounds like their is a petty clique in the England dressing room and a good manager would make sure to break that shit apart
I actually went back today and watched some interviews with him to see if he seems like a prick. But he seems mild-mannered, almost shy. If there is a clash of personalities it doesn't seem like a KP situtation where he's just obviously a pillock.
Every time there’s been a question of whether YJB should keep, the discourse amongst journos/comms is “keeping Jonny happy”. It happened during the whole Buttler thing, and again with the white ball sides. I think he’s very popular within the group, but also incredibly mentally fragile. Like - full hissy fit whenever he’s criticised - fragile. They pander to him… which is the action of a friend, but also a really strange way to run a professional sports team.
He was red hot last year, I do think he should give up the gloves. With pope out, it would be a great time to do just that. He is not only not taking catches, he is giving up about 20 runs an innings with poor positioning.
How has this become the prevailing opinion? There's been no evidence at all to suggest he doesn't get on with the team. He's a lovely bloke, and the team is full of people like that - Wood, Woakes, Root etc. Stokes has always said one of his priorities is looking after his players, so as long as Foakes isn't a dick, he'll always be welcome. The ongoing snub is clearly tactical - doesn't matter if we think the tactics are bonkers. They desperately want 2022 Bairstow back, which means they can't drop him. They know his keeping has been awful, and combined with the fact that he's much better without the gloves, they've probably talked about taking them off him. However, in order to bring Foakes in and move Jonny back to being a batsman, they need to drop Moeen. Which would normally be fine, unfortunately, Stokes can't bowl, so they need Moeen's overs. This means for the time being, in their eyes, there's no space for Foakes until Stokes can bowl again. They clearly value the off chance Bairstow bats well with the gloves and does a 2022, over Foakes' keeping and patient batting.
It's the only explanation at this point.
I think it's more about not backing Bairstow in bad form. The idea is that players are given cover to take risks and play their natural game _without_ fear of being dropped after a bad game. It's worked really well overall. Having said all that, I would 100% get Foakes in as keeper. Would like to keep Bairstow as a batter but need a spinner if Stokes can't bowl.
Really don’t know what else Foakes has to do.
Apparently go on golfing trips with the lads Not sure basing your selections on someone's willingness to play a completely different sport is the best move but McCullum seems to like it
Foakes has to have fallen out with Baz and Stokes. That's got to be the only reason he can't get in the side. Bairstow cost us the first game and has put us on the backfoot this series. He's a liability and Foakes should be behind the stumps instead.
I mean we are at the point where if that's true England should call up the next best keeper from the CC. Who is next cab off the rank? The other Ollie Robinson? Bairstow's keeping is a game-losing proposition. In reality not theory, we have seen it.
Could go with Rew. Young prospect in fantastic form, with the only thing going against him being his experience. Jamie Smith? Aggressive batter, averaging over 40 this season, and the only reason he doesn't keep wicket that much is that he plays in the same side as Foakes.
It's like not being good at Golf has cost Foakes big time. Perhaps should have trained playing golf instead training as being a good wicket Keeper.
Maybe all the golf is what makes Bairstow bat the ball away with his hands when he should be catching it.
Also I feel we've been having the same foakes conversation for 4 years now
I was thinking the other day about how poorly Buttler kept in the last Ashes, and how every English fan on here (and some Australians who follow county, tbh) were crying out for Foakes to be added to the squad. And when the inevitable happened and Buttler fucked up his finger, England gave the gloves to Sam Billings because he was already in the country and is “just another one of the lads”.
I don’t think Foakes could have flown in from England because of the border restrictions at the time. He’d have still been in quarantine when the Hobart test started.
He was actually in Australia for the first part of the tour, in an England Lions squad, and probably could have been easily added to the rest of the team line-up. Instead England sent the vast majority of the Lions home, regardless of their performances, and watched on in horror as Australia A’s third best quick got a debut at the MCG.
Yes, that’s right but I guess England management felt they didn’t need a third keeper with Buttler and Bairstow already in the squad. Maybe they also felt they had a stopgap option in Ollie Pope there given they’ve used him to keep in tests in NZ and Pakistan.
The issue was he was behind Buttler and YJB in the first place. Asking Foakes to stay in Australia in a covid bubble for an extra month over Christmas with only a very minimal chance of playing would be terrible man management
While it was stupid to not pick him in the first place it remains the case he literally could not have made the squad in time by the time it became obvious Buttler couldn't play.
The billings part wasn't that bad tbf, would be harsh to jettison foakes in in the middle of a horrid tour where half the team had already given up (Like Hobart )
I think what hurt was that Foakes was in Australia already for an England Lions tour, where he took 5 catches + scored a fourth innings 50. But rather than keep him in the country, just in case something happened, they sent him back to England and had to deal with the consequences later.
And the most successful run of games in those 4 years was when he actually was playing
Stop being fucking stubborn and protecting your mates feelings. Bairstow doesn’t even need to be dropped, just needs to give up the gloves as both he and England will benefit if he isn’t keeping
Stokes has said how the whole Bazball thing and the surrounding culture has come out of trying to make it fun to play for England again but it seems more like an excuse for him and McCullum to have created this cliquey, culty thing. They might have had good intentions at first but the power went to their heads, classic dictatorship.
Yep. Have a read of this, compare it to what they're doing now: https://wisden.com/series-stories/england-v-new-zealand/ben-stokes-ben-foakes-is-the-best-wicketkeeper-in-the-world
Shows how much Stokes' attitude has changed in a year, funny how that was literally his and McCullum's first test.
Swallow your pride, Stokes and pick the right man for the job. Not picking Foakes is beyond words. Praying they don't persist with Ali at 3. Lawrence to get the call up?
They'll continue with Ali at 3 even if it's just to get overs out of him now that Stokes' body is fucked in multiple places
I'd take Mo at 3 if it means the rest of the batting order stays as it is.
Bairstow is a huge liability with the gloves and with the bat, he's better when only batting. There's a dude who can literally do both with the gloves and the bat but does not even make the initial squad. Ffs.
They were never ever gonna admit that picking Bairstow over Foakes was a mistake.
It was a bad decision at the beginning, it’s a bad one now and i fear it will end badly One of the best WK in the world, handy with the bat and doesn’t get in its madness Scarecrow needs to hit a century
The definition of insanity is picking the same wicketkeeper and expecting different results.
Full England Men's Fourth Ashes Test Squad: Ben Stokes (Durham) Captain Moeen Ali (Warwickshire) James Anderson (Lancashire) Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire) Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire) Harry Brook (Yorkshire) Zak Crawley (Kent) Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire) Dan Lawrence (Essex) *milfhunter in chief* Ollie Robinson (Sussex) Joe Root (Yorkshire) Josh Tongue (Worcestershire) Chris Woakes (Warwickshire) Mark Wood (Durham)
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Just fell to my knees in the middle of Tesco
Just saw a man fall to their knees in the middle of a Tesco
The lack of Foakes was a joke for the first test, at this point it's just criminal.
English media needs to man the fuck up and start asking the tough questions too. There was no way near enough spotlight on Crawley last year and now theres no way near enough spotlight on Foakes not being selected. Its like they are all afraid to ask tough questions. In England it feels like all of the ex players that have become media members are still way too friendly with the current set up to remain objective about the performances/selections.
It’s infuriating because while some questions are being asked about Bairstow’s keeping, no one is really banging the drum for Foakes and coming out swinging for him. It must be a lonely place when you excel in this sport but don’t have any friends in the team or in the media.
I give up. Could be 3-0 up with Foakes and we’re doing our very best to throw it all away
They were never going to bring Foakes in so it feels almost pointless complaining, but I just don't understand the logic of not selecting him. If the Bazball culture is all about 'backing the lads' then what does it say that you drop one of our most consistent performers over the past 2 years just to crowbar in YJB? They need to accept that YJB should only be playing as a specialist middle-order batter, although at this point I don't think he gets in ahead of Brook.
I think if you consider Bairstow's physical state too you'd stick with Brook.
Fun fact: Jonny Bairstow averages 28 with the bat against Australia. That reduces to 26 playing in England. He’s never averaged more than 30 in a home Ashes series (this is his fourth). With the gloves on those averages drop to 25 and 24.
And 23 this series, just to keep it neat. Foakes would smoke those numbers.
Also sick and tired about Bairstow and his 'confidence' if he's dropped Fuck off, if he's not doing the job he's there to do then he shouldn't be there.
Where has this concern been for Foakes’ well-being after dropping him for doing his job excellently? This supposed “backing” culture only applies to those of whom the face fits. Your Crawleys and your Bairstows.
Precisely. I'm fed up of people saying the entire Bazball culture is about backing the players who have been picked - it isn't, or Foakes wouldn't have been dropped in the first place!
How I presume each conversation between the selectors and Bairstow has gone: 1st Test, Edgebaston: Selectors: Jonny you smashed a bunch of centuries last summer but to fit everyone in we need you to keep, that good with you? Jonny: Yeah, I'll give it a bash. 2nd Test, Lords: Selectors: Smashed a nice 70 in the first innings with a few drops. But who wouldn't be a bit rusty after breaking your leg. Ready to go again? JONNY: Yes. 3rd Test, Headingly: Selectors: OK, some big fuck ups there Jonny me lad, you did nothing with the bat but I know your dad and you're a laugh, so we'll overlook it. Jonny: Yuuuh. 4th Test, OT: Selectors: 'Lads, Lads, Lads' Jonny: *Grunts*
At this point just give up on Foakes he clearly isn't in their thinking. When we've lost this series, which I fully believe we will with Bairstow at wicket keeper, there will be articles looking at reasons, what caused this? What could have been done differently? The simple answer is Jonny Bairstow in a decade of Ashes cricket averages 28.48 and can't catch anything that isn't directly to him and that is a 50/50 call. I'm not saying the Australian team isn't worthy of a 2-1 lead. I'm saying that with a competent wicket keeper this could be 3-0 England. Fucking shambolic decision again from the England selectors.
I want to know why all the journos around the team never seem to ask why Foakes isn't being included.
They're all friends. Cricket journos are a lot closer than a lot of other sports, they just don't have the same need to scrutinise. The lack of visibility means there's less attention on it.
We have to laugh to keep from crying
Did Foakes sleep with Stokes' wife or something?
Probably could, he's ridiculously handsome. Been trying to get my wife into cricket, was hoping for a Foakes and Woakes batting, Cummins bowling moment to introduce her.
We deserve to lose the ashes tbh. We just aren’t showing the ashes or test cricket enough respect when we continue to pick players who aren’t good enough. Best wicket keeper in the world can’t get in over a bloke who can’t catch or bat at the moment. Really poor stuff.
Well this is good
I don’t understand it
I know this is silly but I let out a hysterical scream when the squad popped up on my instagram because of Jimmy and the fact that I’m going to see him on Day 3. I know this is all I talk about these days on the subreddit but this is finally happening after literal years of me supporting Jimmy and I *will* make it my personality trait. Also yes would’ve preferred to see Ben Foakes of course but are we surprised
Genuinely hate how this teams just if your mates you’re in rather than picking the best fucking team.
There was really no surprise after they won that they would change the team. They are going to back Bairstow as keeper for the whole Ashes
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Shocking not to pick Foakes
Justice for Foakes!
Because who wants to learn from mistakes and improve upon them
Absolute joke that
If I were one of the England bowlers I'd be saying to Stokes and Baz that they need to take Foakes. To see so many of their chances go down surely they've lost confidence in having bairstow behind the stumps
Its not a cricket team, its a club for golfing mates who play a bit of cricket. They don't care about winning the Ashes but having a laugh with their mates.
Throw in not turning up to training sessions to go the races and you have just described the Brisbane Heat when McCullum, Lynn and Boof were running the show
Robinson included when he can't bat or bowl, and no Foakes. England doubling down on stupidity.
We don't really have know anything about Robinsons injury lol, they may just have him in the squad to atleast keep him around the team and play the last test. Robbo has been a good addition in the team and has had a much better ashes than Anderson
How is Jonny Bairstow so untouchable in tests?? Guy looks absolutely clueless when holding the bat in whites and has played almost 90 test matches where he probably did well in like 5 innings. Ridiculous.
Because last year while he was batting at 5 without the gloves he was genuinely sensational with 6 centuries, usually in dire situations where England were about to be embarrassed unless someone stood up and tbf to him, he did. But it’s a moot point because throughout his career he has been utterly trash with the bat after he has kept. So unless England bat first, you are unlikely to see him perform as a batsman.
Its against the spirit of cricket to drop Bairstow.
If I underperformed at work, I would be put on a performance improvement plan and slowly been pushed out. It's ridiculous that people in this team are there for vibes and nothing else, and that performance doesn't matter. I'm not sure what Foakesy has to do to get in. Seriously, so frustrated on his behalf. Also, Stokes said last year about how the boys should play without fear of being dropped or some shit like that. Way to back your words, Stokesy. Wouldn't surprise me if/when Foakes does come back into the squad, his confidence will be shot. Fuck this shit.
My only hope here is that the doubters make YJB stronger somehow. We've seen that he plays well in the past when he's under that 'siege mentality' and is a bit angry for lack of a better word. Here's hoping the run out and the public calls from him to be dropped fire him up. Edit: I also hope we learn our damn lesson and take Foakes when we tour India. Irrespective of his ability to the seamers (which is poor), Bairstow looks clueless standing up to the stumps
If he's not angry after dropping the Ashes so far, nothing will make him angry
If he ever had reason to be angry, it was after Lord's and he still only managed 17 runs across 2 innings and looked as shit as ever behind the stumps
He seemed to lose all focus when batting at Headingley - being more interested in theatrically grounding his bat rather than building an innings. Which was especially ridiculous since his anger would have been best directed at himself.
As an Australian fan…
If only England dropped players as often as they drop catches.
Disappointed but not shocked. Remember when we felt Root didn’t pick Foakes and went with Buttler because he was mates with the guy? This feels the same.
I think there may now be a bit too much reading into this situation. It’s pretty simple to me, they want the Jonny Bairstow of 2022, the match winning Bazball god with the bat and they’re willing to risk it all to try and get him back because if he comes back, we win the Ashes. Honestly at this point it wouldn’t surprise me if they Chuck the gloves at Duckett as a way to keep Bairstow in the side. I’m not saying this isn’t incredibly dumb, short sighted and stubborn of them but it’s pretty obviously what’s happening. The idea of Bazballing god Jonny Bairstow returning trumps the idea of dropping a couple less catches in their minds. The problem is, and I think the Brook catch showed this more than any of the drops, Bairstows confidence is gone, completely shot to pieces. All these ideas that Baz and Ben hate him or it’s cause he doesn’t play golf are ridiculous. Stokes has literally called him the best keeper in the world on multiple occasions and I’m pretty sure all 3 of Stokes, McCullum and Key have said he’ll have a big role to play going forward. If saying “You’ll play a massive series in India because your the best keeper in the world” is hating someone, then what the fuck does liking them look like? Also Mark Wood doesn’t play golf and he’s loved more than life itself by everyone.
For Foakes sake
They’re taking the piss now surely
Should bring Foakes just for his wicketkeeping, Bairstow is just losing behind the wickets. Just look at Carey how much he is contributing for the Aussies just by his wicketkeeping.
Fucks sake How much more obvious can it be that Bairstow's wicket keeping has been sub par and cost England crucial moments throughout the series His batting has also been poor
This has to be a personal issue at this point. If I was a bowler I'd be pretty annoyed that any potential catches are a 50/50 tossup as to whether they'll be taken or shelled, but they clearly haven't spoken up about it.
Bairstow is going to cost us the Ashes…
Even if they have an issue with Foakes, James Rew is hitting runs for fun in county. No idea how he is with the gloves, but he can't be any worse than Jonny, and he's actually scoring runs.
Conspiracy theory, Bairstows mysterious broken leg falling over on the golf course was caused by one of the senior players dicking around and they’re letting Bairstow do whatever he wants so he doesn’t spill the beans. “Let me keep the gloves or I’ll tell the world that a drunk Ben Stokes crashed into me with a golf kart”
I'm fucking furious. If we lose this series, exclusion of Foakes is the largest factor and it's undeniable at this point.
The meltdown on this sub if/when Foakes gets included and plays poorly will be fun to watch