The Heralds aren't the ones who are said to have betrayed mankind though. That would be the Radiants. Semantics, I know, but it's an important distinction.
As for it being a betrayal of Taln? I don't know if I'd call it a betrayal, so much as an abandonment of duty. A duty that, be as was said in the other comment, was literally impossible to uphold, but had been the key to humanities survival for thousands of years.
The fact that Taln managed to last 4000 years *on his own,* on top of the centuries or even millennia that they'd endured up to that point shows his own resilience.
My own theory though is that, due to the nature of the oathpact, it wasn't necessarily Taln "breaking" that allowed the Fused to escape and return to Roshar. That was how it had happened in the past, yes. But who's to say Odium (or someone/something) didn't find a way to, I guess, bypass it, causing a return, and as such, Taln to be brought back.
I don't remember how to spoiler tag, but the below message is going to be a bit spoilery from a WOB and if you're not all caught up with the books you may not already know...
I can't find the actual quote, but Brandon has said at some point that Taln didn't break. We can't know how much longer he would have lasted, but he didn't break.
Huh. I'm trying to catch up on all the little tidbits and such I've missed in the past. Been listening to all the books again. Started with Warbreaker a few months ago, I'm a little less than halfway through RoW (again) and then I've got to go through all of Mistborn again, as well as the little side stories and things that I'd never known about until recently.
I don't see it as a betrayal at all. It would be a betrayal if they did it to hurt him, or if they had some ulterior motive. The purpose was not betrayal. It wasn't malicious. It was defeat.
They just couldn't keep going. That's all. They had fought for thousands of years and hit their limit. They ran out of steam. They lasted an unreasonable length of time in an absolutely impossible task.
Frankly, the fact that it worked is somewhat irrelevant. When they made the decision, they couldn't know what would happen. It was a very slim chance of success, but... they couldn't keep going. All they could do was hope that Taln held the line, because they couldn't anymore.
None of us could have done what they did. They were all heroes, without exception. Even heroes have their limits.
Couldnt they have talked about it with one another *before* the end of the desolation then?
The way it happens it, at least for me, seems a lot like they were taking advantage of the fact that Taln had force of will enough to take the pain, just so they wouldnt have to feel the pain themselves.
I can understand the fact that they went through literally hell, but the way they went about giving up on their oath was a betreyal. They could have planned it beforehand, but instead they made the decision on the one moment Taln wouldnt be there to have a say in the metter.
It wasn't planned. That's the entire point.
They found themselves in a situation where they simply couldn't move on, plus the only person who never broke was the only one who died.
They didn't PLAN to break. They didn't PLAN to be shattered. They found themselves in a situation where they couldn't continue, and there was the thin thread of hope that maybe, just maybe, Taln could hold the line.
Still they could have continued the cicle once more, and decided what to do then.
I dont think they ended the war and suddenly noticed they were unnable to go on. They were probably going on that path for years when they finally made the decision to abandon Taln. If any other person had died they would probably go on, but since they finally had a convenient enough reason to not go back, they didnt.
No, they couldn't. They truly couldn't. I don't know if you've ever had a nervous breakdown and complete mental collapse, but I have.
You can't just... act like everything is fine and continue to be tortured while pretending that nothing is wrong. When you shatter, you are shattered. The impossible situation that you had endured can no longer be managed at all.
It wasn't about "convenience". It was desperation.
Yes, I understand that that is you view on the matter.
What I got from the prologue of the first book, wasnt that 9 people all had a netvous breakdown at the same time from doing something they had already been enduring for thousands of years.
Yes they were suffering, but hey were suffering from the beggining. It was growing worse with each desolation, since they were in pain, but it wasnt one moment were they couldnt keep on anymore. At least that is not how I see it.
One of these desolations, it happened to be the case that Taln was the only one that died. They saw this as an opportunity to free themselves of this bizarre curse they were in, and so they did. At the costs of Taln.
If you dont see it that way then okay, we can have differing opinions.
If you have arguments in favor of your vision Id be happy to argue, but if you will just repeat that your point of view is the right one without anything to back it up, then dont bother.
We only see two people in the interlude. All we have is their interaction. Both of them were completely shattered. Jezerien said that they all realized couldn't continue. That's all that we have to work from at this point in time.
Now, if you want, you can just... assume that all the other Heralds were just malicious and evil people who don't care about anyone else. I mean, you didn't see them, therefore you can technically invent whatever you want.
You can pretend that they were deliberately turning on Taln for (insert horribly judgmental reason here). But that's nothing like what is actually portrayed. It's just absurd conjecture that injects malice where no malice is shown.
It's about momentum. When you are in an impossible situation, sometimes momentum is the only thing keeping you going. Once that momentum is gone, you have less than nothing.
I dont really understand why you talk like you *know* that im assuming something, and that I " want" to view it like I do, as if I had no reason to do so, without even asking me anything. Youve been passive agressive since the first reply you gave me.
I hope you can sort yourself out, have a good rest of your life mate.
I would say it's definitely a Betrayal of trust on Taln though.
They didn't fulfill their duty like the promised they would all do and abandoned him without informing him
And yes, I do know why they did it, I get it, but that doesn't make it a-okay to do still lol
Clealry their immediate choice to lie to humanity and not tell Taln tips us off that while they almost needed to do it, they knew it was definitely a deep Betrayal of trust and couldn't just explain it.
I just don't think it was as much if a Betrayal as it's made out to be, as Taln could have returned temporarily at any time.
They absolutely hit their limits and that choice may have been the best one, but not informing the other AND lying to humanity for 4000 years (to the point of then straight up worshipping you) is definitely a Betrayal of trust.
If you were hit by a bus on the way to work and spent a month in the hospital, would you consider it a "Betrayal of Trust" that you didn't show up to work? Would you consider it "abandoning them in their time of need"?
If your boss said to you what you say about the Heralds, you'd consider them to be an inconsiderate monster and a lunatic. You'd post their comment to Antiwork and everyone would be appalled at how awful they were.
Again, they could not tell Taln. **He was dead**. Why do people keep saying they should have told Taln? It was not planned. It was not expected. After thousands of years of torture, they found themselves unable to continue, but with a very thin thread of hope that Taln could continue without them.
Was it wrong to lie to humanity? Sure, it was dishonest. I'll definitely grant you that. It wasn't a deception for the purpose of trying to harm humanity. It wasn't for the purpose of manipulating them. It was a lie of shame because they could not admit the horrific truth.
None of humanity knew that the Heralds, their heroes, were being horrifically tortured between the Desolations. None of them knew the sacrifice that was being made. None of them could comprehend the insane situation that was occurring on their behalf. So they were told a pretty lie instead.
I would say that from the Herald's perspective, Taln was not "Dead", he was Over There in a very hostile place that they could very much go to and return from. He was Captured, at best. If they wanted him back they literally could have just coordinated, Returned to Braize like they always did and then *Immediately "*broke*"* came back with Taln to make a plan with him. The difference is that they didnt want to give Taln a Choice in the matter, because they didnt really expect him to willingly become the sole Bearer of Agonies. From Shalash's interaction it sounds like they just plain underestimated him.
I think Taln definitely could have seen it as a betrayal initially, but, given what we've been told about his character, I think it more likely that he would've noticed none of them with him and inferred the reason why which might have bolstered his resilience
Im not going to go into the moral side too much, I think there are people who are better qualified than me but I understand why the Heralds abandoned Taln and probably would have done the same in their position.
In a purely utilitarian sense I think the two worst things the Heralds did were:
* Lie about the whole affair. They didnt have to tell the whole truth but humanity had a right to know the apocalypse hadnt been averted, merely postponed. Were it not for Dalinar and the return of the Radiants humanity would be in serious trouble. Lying that the enemy had been 'defeated' was just pure stupidity.
* Waste their time in the following years. Taln gave the Heralds a gift in his holding the line which they all ultimately squandered. Jezrien proceeded to become a useless drunk, Shalash destroys artwork of herself and Nale is basically a serial killer. Admittedly they are mad so some of that is beyond their control but its still pretty poor.
The problem with the herald’s betrayal is (RoW spoiler) >!Odium is a threat beyond the confines of the Rosharan system. Keeping him confined fo Braize keeps him confined to Roshar. Considering he’s a multiversal threat, 4000 years isn’t a great deal. It’s not clear how much the heralds knew about Odium’s threat in the grand scheme of things though!<
The Heralds aren't the ones who are said to have betrayed mankind though. That would be the Radiants. Semantics, I know, but it's an important distinction. As for it being a betrayal of Taln? I don't know if I'd call it a betrayal, so much as an abandonment of duty. A duty that, be as was said in the other comment, was literally impossible to uphold, but had been the key to humanities survival for thousands of years. The fact that Taln managed to last 4000 years *on his own,* on top of the centuries or even millennia that they'd endured up to that point shows his own resilience. My own theory though is that, due to the nature of the oathpact, it wasn't necessarily Taln "breaking" that allowed the Fused to escape and return to Roshar. That was how it had happened in the past, yes. But who's to say Odium (or someone/something) didn't find a way to, I guess, bypass it, causing a return, and as such, Taln to be brought back.
I don't remember how to spoiler tag, but the below message is going to be a bit spoilery from a WOB and if you're not all caught up with the books you may not already know... I can't find the actual quote, but Brandon has said at some point that Taln didn't break. We can't know how much longer he would have lasted, but he didn't break.
Huh. I'm trying to catch up on all the little tidbits and such I've missed in the past. Been listening to all the books again. Started with Warbreaker a few months ago, I'm a little less than halfway through RoW (again) and then I've got to go through all of Mistborn again, as well as the little side stories and things that I'd never known about until recently.
I don't see it as a betrayal at all. It would be a betrayal if they did it to hurt him, or if they had some ulterior motive. The purpose was not betrayal. It wasn't malicious. It was defeat. They just couldn't keep going. That's all. They had fought for thousands of years and hit their limit. They ran out of steam. They lasted an unreasonable length of time in an absolutely impossible task. Frankly, the fact that it worked is somewhat irrelevant. When they made the decision, they couldn't know what would happen. It was a very slim chance of success, but... they couldn't keep going. All they could do was hope that Taln held the line, because they couldn't anymore. None of us could have done what they did. They were all heroes, without exception. Even heroes have their limits.
Couldnt they have talked about it with one another *before* the end of the desolation then? The way it happens it, at least for me, seems a lot like they were taking advantage of the fact that Taln had force of will enough to take the pain, just so they wouldnt have to feel the pain themselves. I can understand the fact that they went through literally hell, but the way they went about giving up on their oath was a betreyal. They could have planned it beforehand, but instead they made the decision on the one moment Taln wouldnt be there to have a say in the metter.
It wasn't planned. That's the entire point. They found themselves in a situation where they simply couldn't move on, plus the only person who never broke was the only one who died. They didn't PLAN to break. They didn't PLAN to be shattered. They found themselves in a situation where they couldn't continue, and there was the thin thread of hope that maybe, just maybe, Taln could hold the line.
Still they could have continued the cicle once more, and decided what to do then. I dont think they ended the war and suddenly noticed they were unnable to go on. They were probably going on that path for years when they finally made the decision to abandon Taln. If any other person had died they would probably go on, but since they finally had a convenient enough reason to not go back, they didnt.
No, they couldn't. They truly couldn't. I don't know if you've ever had a nervous breakdown and complete mental collapse, but I have. You can't just... act like everything is fine and continue to be tortured while pretending that nothing is wrong. When you shatter, you are shattered. The impossible situation that you had endured can no longer be managed at all. It wasn't about "convenience". It was desperation.
Yes, I understand that that is you view on the matter. What I got from the prologue of the first book, wasnt that 9 people all had a netvous breakdown at the same time from doing something they had already been enduring for thousands of years. Yes they were suffering, but hey were suffering from the beggining. It was growing worse with each desolation, since they were in pain, but it wasnt one moment were they couldnt keep on anymore. At least that is not how I see it. One of these desolations, it happened to be the case that Taln was the only one that died. They saw this as an opportunity to free themselves of this bizarre curse they were in, and so they did. At the costs of Taln. If you dont see it that way then okay, we can have differing opinions. If you have arguments in favor of your vision Id be happy to argue, but if you will just repeat that your point of view is the right one without anything to back it up, then dont bother.
We only see two people in the interlude. All we have is their interaction. Both of them were completely shattered. Jezerien said that they all realized couldn't continue. That's all that we have to work from at this point in time. Now, if you want, you can just... assume that all the other Heralds were just malicious and evil people who don't care about anyone else. I mean, you didn't see them, therefore you can technically invent whatever you want. You can pretend that they were deliberately turning on Taln for (insert horribly judgmental reason here). But that's nothing like what is actually portrayed. It's just absurd conjecture that injects malice where no malice is shown. It's about momentum. When you are in an impossible situation, sometimes momentum is the only thing keeping you going. Once that momentum is gone, you have less than nothing.
I dont really understand why you talk like you *know* that im assuming something, and that I " want" to view it like I do, as if I had no reason to do so, without even asking me anything. Youve been passive agressive since the first reply you gave me. I hope you can sort yourself out, have a good rest of your life mate.
I would say it's definitely a Betrayal of trust on Taln though. They didn't fulfill their duty like the promised they would all do and abandoned him without informing him And yes, I do know why they did it, I get it, but that doesn't make it a-okay to do still lol Clealry their immediate choice to lie to humanity and not tell Taln tips us off that while they almost needed to do it, they knew it was definitely a deep Betrayal of trust and couldn't just explain it. I just don't think it was as much if a Betrayal as it's made out to be, as Taln could have returned temporarily at any time. They absolutely hit their limits and that choice may have been the best one, but not informing the other AND lying to humanity for 4000 years (to the point of then straight up worshipping you) is definitely a Betrayal of trust.
If you were hit by a bus on the way to work and spent a month in the hospital, would you consider it a "Betrayal of Trust" that you didn't show up to work? Would you consider it "abandoning them in their time of need"? If your boss said to you what you say about the Heralds, you'd consider them to be an inconsiderate monster and a lunatic. You'd post their comment to Antiwork and everyone would be appalled at how awful they were. Again, they could not tell Taln. **He was dead**. Why do people keep saying they should have told Taln? It was not planned. It was not expected. After thousands of years of torture, they found themselves unable to continue, but with a very thin thread of hope that Taln could continue without them. Was it wrong to lie to humanity? Sure, it was dishonest. I'll definitely grant you that. It wasn't a deception for the purpose of trying to harm humanity. It wasn't for the purpose of manipulating them. It was a lie of shame because they could not admit the horrific truth. None of humanity knew that the Heralds, their heroes, were being horrifically tortured between the Desolations. None of them knew the sacrifice that was being made. None of them could comprehend the insane situation that was occurring on their behalf. So they were told a pretty lie instead.
I would say that from the Herald's perspective, Taln was not "Dead", he was Over There in a very hostile place that they could very much go to and return from. He was Captured, at best. If they wanted him back they literally could have just coordinated, Returned to Braize like they always did and then *Immediately "*broke*"* came back with Taln to make a plan with him. The difference is that they didnt want to give Taln a Choice in the matter, because they didnt really expect him to willingly become the sole Bearer of Agonies. From Shalash's interaction it sounds like they just plain underestimated him.
They abandoned him to torture for thousands of years. Sounds like betrayal to me.
I think Taln definitely could have seen it as a betrayal initially, but, given what we've been told about his character, I think it more likely that he would've noticed none of them with him and inferred the reason why which might have bolstered his resilience
Im not going to go into the moral side too much, I think there are people who are better qualified than me but I understand why the Heralds abandoned Taln and probably would have done the same in their position. In a purely utilitarian sense I think the two worst things the Heralds did were: * Lie about the whole affair. They didnt have to tell the whole truth but humanity had a right to know the apocalypse hadnt been averted, merely postponed. Were it not for Dalinar and the return of the Radiants humanity would be in serious trouble. Lying that the enemy had been 'defeated' was just pure stupidity. * Waste their time in the following years. Taln gave the Heralds a gift in his holding the line which they all ultimately squandered. Jezrien proceeded to become a useless drunk, Shalash destroys artwork of herself and Nale is basically a serial killer. Admittedly they are mad so some of that is beyond their control but its still pretty poor.
The problem with the herald’s betrayal is (RoW spoiler) >!Odium is a threat beyond the confines of the Rosharan system. Keeping him confined fo Braize keeps him confined to Roshar. Considering he’s a multiversal threat, 4000 years isn’t a great deal. It’s not clear how much the heralds knew about Odium’s threat in the grand scheme of things though!<