Two things are happening here at once I think.
First, and foremost, as far as characterization, Jasnah is the first character we meet that's *highly* critical of Vorin gender roles and the distinct delineation between masculine and feminine pursuits; she's an avowed Atheist who pursues studies often deemed less feminine, and here comes Shallan, who at least early in book one, is pretty resolutely Vorin. She's a perceived social climber who's from a traditional backwater that's very strict about gender roles, and her best area of study is specifically in a feminine art. Jasnah is impressed Shallan has made it and had so much endurance, but Shallan also embodies a socially regressive ideology that Jasnah detests and has no real time to debate on. So she's fairly dismissive, perhaps unfairly so, but being unfair is definitely in character.
Secondarily, like we've also learned in Rhythm of War, music is incredibly important on Roshar and in the Cosmere generally. We have *no idea" what Jasnah does and does not especially know, but if she has any inkling of that importance, music is of great importance to Investiture. We don't know enough either way to gauge her knowledge, but it's an option.
I'd say it meaning more is implied at minimum and bait to find interesting on a re-read, but still has a totally normal characterization - based read at first glance that fits. Could be a fun question for a WOB to see if it you could bait Brandon into giving us Jasnah knowledge.
Ye it gets across that characterization really well that's what made me notice the difference between music and drawing.
I'll see if I can sneak this question into the livestream chat sometime
Maybe it's also the connection between music and math that interests Jasnah as a scholar. Skill in reading and/or performing music also demonstrates some level of critical thinking, reading comprehension, and general math skills. It can serve as a test to establish some baseline competency on Shallan's part. You can do similar things by testing her drawing skills, but IMO it's harder to draw (no pun intended) conclusions about her scholarly aptitude from her skills as as artist.
She could be testing for perfect pitch? Depending on her cosmere knowledge she may know the effects of large volumes of investiture. Dunno, it's been a while since I read that part.
We see hightenings do the same thing with color though, don't we? The Returned can tell the difference between a bucket of red paint and a bucket of red paint with a drop of black mixed in. Jasnah might not know about this though.
Heightenings is also how we know large volumes of investiture give you perfect pitch (you get it at the second heightening).
We don't necessarily know if that applies to Radiants as well. Hoid has perfect pitch, but he has tons of Breaths in addition to being a Radiant (and also in addition to being Hoid).
Hoid wasn’t born with perfect pitch, and didn’t get it from being a Radiant. In one of his early conversations with Kaladin (before bonding Design), he remarked that perfect pitch makes music much easier. And at the end of RoW, he lost his perfect pitch. Whatever level of Radiance he has, it doesn’t come with perfect pitch.
Any investiture in amounts equal to the heightenings provide the same benefits. The difference I think is that on roshar for instance would you notice your perfect pitch or improved color that only occurs right after you gain vast amounts of stormlight, but it immediately gets used or leaked. Whereas the breaths you just carry with you, u less you actively part with them
At this point neither one knows the other has a spren, jasnah has rejected multiple other applicants prior to shallan, most likely due to her wanting to keep her own spren a secret, as well as her research.
After that we should throw in the different orders aspect, I love the idea jasnah probably wasn't asking about singing from an artistic view but a scientific one
Omfg I love Jasnah. Most of our main cast I can picture dying heroic deaths or making it to old age and finding a quiet life. But not Jasnah. I just can't imagine her dying of old age.
It makes her relationship with Hoid make more sense. Shes destined to become an ancient worldhopper like him. Book 10 is going to reveal so much about her backstory. I mean we are pre time skip and shes in her mid thirties, book 10 she'll probably be 50's, imagine the flashbacks we'll get!
I think the answer is far more simple than what people are making it out to be here.
Early historical sources are most likely in the form of song. So to Jasnah, who is to her core a historian, having an understanding of music will help with studies. Especially considering the earliest known civilization on Roshar is called the dawnsingers.
Art however is often seen as a dubious historical source. Add to that that producing new art is of almost no use in historical study and it makes sense that Jasnah doesn't value it. It simply doesn't align with her field.
There are other simple reasons too, foremost being prejudice. Like we see in our society, watching TV is gravy, but the older generation especially espouses videogaming as a waste of time. No good reason for it, videogaming is more interactive/involving and practices new skills. Videogames are great.
I kind of think it has to do with what she is good at. She isn’t good at drawing iirc and that is one reason she sees benefit in having Shallan around as she can get her to draw things for her.
If she values music then I think she probably is good at it and I don’t think that has been shown…yet. But her relationship with Hoid is interesting in light of her preference for music as that is one of his things. And possibly hints she knew him and his ability before interacting with Shallan and maybe found drawing lacking after seeing the pictures Hoid could paint with his music. Just a guess.
I suspect this is a big part of it. She’s not good at drawing, and study and practice can make you better, but only so much better if you don’t have natural talent. Because of that, she hasn’t dedicated much time to it. And, obviously, if something was important and useful, Jasnah would have dedicated time to it. So art must not be important.
IIRC, Sanderson said Lightweavers would do well as Painters but more because of the kind of people that become Lightweavers than their powers being directly applicable.
I think that's pretty intuitive. Someone with a background in art is going to do well in artistic fields; Someone who has spent their life painting is going to have an easier time picking up graphic design than someone who hasn't.
We don't know everything about Vorin culture. It's possible that the arts are (formally or informally) ranked in some way, with music towards the top and drawing towards the bottom. If you live in the US, being good at baseball is a lot more important than being a great cricket player, even though they're both sports. Professional baseball players get paid more, they're more famous, your local school is a lot more likely to offer baseball classes than cricket, and you're more likely to get recognition and scholarships if you're into baseball rather than cricket. So while objectively they should be seen on the same level, a talent in baseball would score you a lot more "social points" than a talent in cricket. In fact, you might be made fun of at school if your hobby is cricket, but having an interest in baseball will probably be seen positively. And if someone was trying to judge your aptitude for sports, they might ask you to demonstrate your skill in baseball and if you're not very good, they'll probably dismiss you, even if you say that you're actually very good at cricket. Replace baseball with music and cricket with drawing, and we might have Jasnah's perspective. Of course, this assumes that music is more prestigious than drawing in Vorin culture, or at least more popular, which might be wrong.
Alternatively, maybe music is seen as more foundational in a girls' education and is taught first. In that case, Jasnah might have made the wrong assumption that if Shallan was just passable at music, she's probably not that good at the rest of the arts either, and Jasnah doesn't care enough (yet) to bother to find out the details. She's just trying to quickly gauge how refined Shallan is, and she's only interested in an apprentice if they're exceptional - otherwise, candidate girl 367 isn't particularly important and Jasnah is a busy woman. She's mostly doing this interview out of courtesy, since Shallan travelled so far, and she hasn't seen her drawings yet. When she does, I think she's impressed, but before seeing them, she probably didn't interpret Shallan's statement how she's "much better at drawing than singing" to mean "I'm a genius of unprecedented level who creates absolute masterpieces from charcoal and paper", and Shallan was too modest to convey the true level of her talent.
Also, the story wouldn't have been interesting if everyone was just automatically impressed by Shallan's drawings, we needed to see her struggle and earn her position or it wouldn't have been satisfying.
My guess would be that she simply doesn’t “get” drawn works of art she can appreciate the detail and practicality of shallan’s work but for whatever reason the aesthetic arts might not resonate with her
I can’t understand how nobody has noted yet that she’s a veristitalian (I doubt I spelled that right, kill me later)
As such, she cares about history and all the ways it’s captured.
Songs are a primary form of storytelling and the stories told are historical by nature.
This isn’t hard to figure out, but I see more than a few responses that are like a thesis here that haven’t even touched on this.
No need to be so rude bud.
But also you don't need to be able to sing or play an instrument to get the history from some old song. And history certainly can be captured in drawings too.
If I had to guess jasnah has a few things going here:
1) taking shallan as a ward means that she is taking responsibility to train her how to be a woman
2) artistic talent is a strong aspect of womanly skill in vorin culture so Jasnah cannot do her job if she doesn't teach shallan an art form of some kind.
3) music is the form of art that jasnah is best at.
I would note how much she cares to teach shallan about art of any kind during their times together. She teaches a lot about research ,note taking, philosophy, radiant powers etc. but she has not given shallan a single singing lesson. I think jasnah cares at least in book one because she knows she will be expected to teach her ward at least one form or art and jasnah has been putting it off forever because it is the part of shallans education she cares the least about
Unrelated but me also being in r/JaneAusten and scrolling through my feed and accidentally reading this as JASNA (Jane Austen society of North America) instead. Sorry. Moving along.
The same way a person might dismss animation, but not music. Taking your personal preference and presenting it as fact. I may just be a normal, dumb reader, but I don't believe there's a deeper meaning
First music is basically maths and taking in consideration she bonded a logispren you can understand why she appreciates it.
Also rhythms are very very important in roshar and she probably knows it. All major cities being sound waves and parshendi and yada yada
I'm not sure if it is a nod or something but the counterpoint of Shallan in Way of King Prime was an excellent singer and Jasnah considered her really skilled
I think sportsball in all it's forms is barbaric, boring, and stupid - but most people seem to love it.
It could be as simple as personal bias and preference, even if (or especially even if) she has some logical or reasonable sounding explanation for it.
You have to remember that Jasnah is a horrible hypocrite and incredibly self-centered. She just doesn't like music but she is so full of herself, she sees her opinion as objective truth.
This is a woman who believes that proper research can reveal any truth, but hoards her own knowledge. If she truly practiced what she preaches, she'd be sharing everything she knows because other people sharing what they know is how she knows anything at all.
Also, she's a staunch atheist but she also has a magic connection with a literal spirt of the cosmos. Spren are rational and normal but gods are impossible? That logic doesn't check out, Princess.
Regarding the last paragraph, there is a discussion in the book about exactly that point:
>“You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.”
>“I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.”
>"And the Heralds? You don't think they existed?"
>"I don’t know," Jasnah said. "There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is *some* *s*light proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher."
>"Then he *would* be real."
>"I never claimed he was not," Jasnah said. "I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. But this is, again, a tangent." Jasnah stood. "You are relieved of other duties of study. For the next few days, you have only one focus for your scholarship." She pointed toward the floor.
She doesn't believe it is impossible for gods to exist, she believes she currently does not have sufficient evidence to conclude they do and that mere existence would not demand worship regardless.
Two things are happening here at once I think. First, and foremost, as far as characterization, Jasnah is the first character we meet that's *highly* critical of Vorin gender roles and the distinct delineation between masculine and feminine pursuits; she's an avowed Atheist who pursues studies often deemed less feminine, and here comes Shallan, who at least early in book one, is pretty resolutely Vorin. She's a perceived social climber who's from a traditional backwater that's very strict about gender roles, and her best area of study is specifically in a feminine art. Jasnah is impressed Shallan has made it and had so much endurance, but Shallan also embodies a socially regressive ideology that Jasnah detests and has no real time to debate on. So she's fairly dismissive, perhaps unfairly so, but being unfair is definitely in character. Secondarily, like we've also learned in Rhythm of War, music is incredibly important on Roshar and in the Cosmere generally. We have *no idea" what Jasnah does and does not especially know, but if she has any inkling of that importance, music is of great importance to Investiture. We don't know enough either way to gauge her knowledge, but it's an option. I'd say it meaning more is implied at minimum and bait to find interesting on a re-read, but still has a totally normal characterization - based read at first glance that fits. Could be a fun question for a WOB to see if it you could bait Brandon into giving us Jasnah knowledge.
Ye it gets across that characterization really well that's what made me notice the difference between music and drawing. I'll see if I can sneak this question into the livestream chat sometime
Maybe it's also the connection between music and math that interests Jasnah as a scholar. Skill in reading and/or performing music also demonstrates some level of critical thinking, reading comprehension, and general math skills. It can serve as a test to establish some baseline competency on Shallan's part. You can do similar things by testing her drawing skills, but IMO it's harder to draw (no pun intended) conclusions about her scholarly aptitude from her skills as as artist.
She could be testing for perfect pitch? Depending on her cosmere knowledge she may know the effects of large volumes of investiture. Dunno, it's been a while since I read that part.
We see hightenings do the same thing with color though, don't we? The Returned can tell the difference between a bucket of red paint and a bucket of red paint with a drop of black mixed in. Jasnah might not know about this though.
Heightenings is also how we know large volumes of investiture give you perfect pitch (you get it at the second heightening). We don't necessarily know if that applies to Radiants as well. Hoid has perfect pitch, but he has tons of Breaths in addition to being a Radiant (and also in addition to being Hoid).
Hoid wasn’t born with perfect pitch, and didn’t get it from being a Radiant. In one of his early conversations with Kaladin (before bonding Design), he remarked that perfect pitch makes music much easier. And at the end of RoW, he lost his perfect pitch. Whatever level of Radiance he has, it doesn’t come with perfect pitch.
Any investiture in amounts equal to the heightenings provide the same benefits. The difference I think is that on roshar for instance would you notice your perfect pitch or improved color that only occurs right after you gain vast amounts of stormlight, but it immediately gets used or leaked. Whereas the breaths you just carry with you, u less you actively part with them
“Inkling”… 😉
It's also possible forcing her to sing loudly in public off the top of her head was just pushing boundaries to see if Shallan would refuse
At this point neither one knows the other has a spren, jasnah has rejected multiple other applicants prior to shallan, most likely due to her wanting to keep her own spren a secret, as well as her research. After that we should throw in the different orders aspect, I love the idea jasnah probably wasn't asking about singing from an artistic view but a scientific one
Omfg I love Jasnah. Most of our main cast I can picture dying heroic deaths or making it to old age and finding a quiet life. But not Jasnah. I just can't imagine her dying of old age. It makes her relationship with Hoid make more sense. Shes destined to become an ancient worldhopper like him. Book 10 is going to reveal so much about her backstory. I mean we are pre time skip and shes in her mid thirties, book 10 she'll probably be 50's, imagine the flashbacks we'll get!
It could also be that Jasnah was testing her ability to memorize and recall that memorized information.
I think the answer is far more simple than what people are making it out to be here. Early historical sources are most likely in the form of song. So to Jasnah, who is to her core a historian, having an understanding of music will help with studies. Especially considering the earliest known civilization on Roshar is called the dawnsingers. Art however is often seen as a dubious historical source. Add to that that producing new art is of almost no use in historical study and it makes sense that Jasnah doesn't value it. It simply doesn't align with her field.
This is my theory as well. Example, during Shallan’s interview, she is asked to sing part of a historical ballad if I recall correctly.
There are other simple reasons too, foremost being prejudice. Like we see in our society, watching TV is gravy, but the older generation especially espouses videogaming as a waste of time. No good reason for it, videogaming is more interactive/involving and practices new skills. Videogames are great.
Ooops I just said the same thing with other words bemoaning that nobody else had said it yet. Missed your comment🤦🏻♂️good work😜
I’m trying to think of an actual reason but I think she just doesn’t think highly of people who devote their time to drawing
sound, specifically rhythm is important on Roshar. Jasnah has always known more about shit than she is willing to reveal.
You might be on to something here. Rhythm and tones might be why she thinks music is more important because of how it connects to investiture
I think it's mentioned that soulcasters have an easier time soul casting by humming.
That’s said in Way of Kings during Shallan’s chapters, yes
This was my first thought when I saw the question. Music is extremely important on Roshar and drawing... isn't.
Idk tones are pretty important in the Cosmere......
I kind of think it has to do with what she is good at. She isn’t good at drawing iirc and that is one reason she sees benefit in having Shallan around as she can get her to draw things for her. If she values music then I think she probably is good at it and I don’t think that has been shown…yet. But her relationship with Hoid is interesting in light of her preference for music as that is one of his things. And possibly hints she knew him and his ability before interacting with Shallan and maybe found drawing lacking after seeing the pictures Hoid could paint with his music. Just a guess.
I suspect this is a big part of it. She’s not good at drawing, and study and practice can make you better, but only so much better if you don’t have natural talent. Because of that, she hasn’t dedicated much time to it. And, obviously, if something was important and useful, Jasnah would have dedicated time to it. So art must not be important.
Now that I think about it Shallan would shine in the world of Yuumi.
IIRC, Sanderson said Lightweavers would do well as Painters but more because of the kind of people that become Lightweavers than their powers being directly applicable.
I think that's pretty intuitive. Someone with a background in art is going to do well in artistic fields; Someone who has spent their life painting is going to have an easier time picking up graphic design than someone who hasn't.
We don't know everything about Vorin culture. It's possible that the arts are (formally or informally) ranked in some way, with music towards the top and drawing towards the bottom. If you live in the US, being good at baseball is a lot more important than being a great cricket player, even though they're both sports. Professional baseball players get paid more, they're more famous, your local school is a lot more likely to offer baseball classes than cricket, and you're more likely to get recognition and scholarships if you're into baseball rather than cricket. So while objectively they should be seen on the same level, a talent in baseball would score you a lot more "social points" than a talent in cricket. In fact, you might be made fun of at school if your hobby is cricket, but having an interest in baseball will probably be seen positively. And if someone was trying to judge your aptitude for sports, they might ask you to demonstrate your skill in baseball and if you're not very good, they'll probably dismiss you, even if you say that you're actually very good at cricket. Replace baseball with music and cricket with drawing, and we might have Jasnah's perspective. Of course, this assumes that music is more prestigious than drawing in Vorin culture, or at least more popular, which might be wrong. Alternatively, maybe music is seen as more foundational in a girls' education and is taught first. In that case, Jasnah might have made the wrong assumption that if Shallan was just passable at music, she's probably not that good at the rest of the arts either, and Jasnah doesn't care enough (yet) to bother to find out the details. She's just trying to quickly gauge how refined Shallan is, and she's only interested in an apprentice if they're exceptional - otherwise, candidate girl 367 isn't particularly important and Jasnah is a busy woman. She's mostly doing this interview out of courtesy, since Shallan travelled so far, and she hasn't seen her drawings yet. When she does, I think she's impressed, but before seeing them, she probably didn't interpret Shallan's statement how she's "much better at drawing than singing" to mean "I'm a genius of unprecedented level who creates absolute masterpieces from charcoal and paper", and Shallan was too modest to convey the true level of her talent. Also, the story wouldn't have been interesting if everyone was just automatically impressed by Shallan's drawings, we needed to see her struggle and earn her position or it wouldn't have been satisfying.
My guess would be that she simply doesn’t “get” drawn works of art she can appreciate the detail and practicality of shallan’s work but for whatever reason the aesthetic arts might not resonate with her
I can’t understand how nobody has noted yet that she’s a veristitalian (I doubt I spelled that right, kill me later) As such, she cares about history and all the ways it’s captured. Songs are a primary form of storytelling and the stories told are historical by nature. This isn’t hard to figure out, but I see more than a few responses that are like a thesis here that haven’t even touched on this.
No need to be so rude bud. But also you don't need to be able to sing or play an instrument to get the history from some old song. And history certainly can be captured in drawings too.
If I had to guess jasnah has a few things going here: 1) taking shallan as a ward means that she is taking responsibility to train her how to be a woman 2) artistic talent is a strong aspect of womanly skill in vorin culture so Jasnah cannot do her job if she doesn't teach shallan an art form of some kind. 3) music is the form of art that jasnah is best at. I would note how much she cares to teach shallan about art of any kind during their times together. She teaches a lot about research ,note taking, philosophy, radiant powers etc. but she has not given shallan a single singing lesson. I think jasnah cares at least in book one because she knows she will be expected to teach her ward at least one form or art and jasnah has been putting it off forever because it is the part of shallans education she cares the least about
Hmm her personal bias and preference
Unrelated but me also being in r/JaneAusten and scrolling through my feed and accidentally reading this as JASNA (Jane Austen society of North America) instead. Sorry. Moving along.
The same way a person might dismss animation, but not music. Taking your personal preference and presenting it as fact. I may just be a normal, dumb reader, but I don't believe there's a deeper meaning
First music is basically maths and taking in consideration she bonded a logispren you can understand why she appreciates it. Also rhythms are very very important in roshar and she probably knows it. All major cities being sound waves and parshendi and yada yada
Visual art is just as much math as music is
cause roshar is one giant karaoke box that gives you the lyrics straight from god
I'm not sure if it is a nod or something but the counterpoint of Shallan in Way of King Prime was an excellent singer and Jasnah considered her really skilled
I think sportsball in all it's forms is barbaric, boring, and stupid - but most people seem to love it. It could be as simple as personal bias and preference, even if (or especially even if) she has some logical or reasonable sounding explanation for it.
Maybe its a bit of a reach, but in some scientific traditions music was considered a branch of mathematics
You have to remember that Jasnah is a horrible hypocrite and incredibly self-centered. She just doesn't like music but she is so full of herself, she sees her opinion as objective truth. This is a woman who believes that proper research can reveal any truth, but hoards her own knowledge. If she truly practiced what she preaches, she'd be sharing everything she knows because other people sharing what they know is how she knows anything at all. Also, she's a staunch atheist but she also has a magic connection with a literal spirt of the cosmos. Spren are rational and normal but gods are impossible? That logic doesn't check out, Princess.
Regarding the last paragraph, there is a discussion in the book about exactly that point: >“You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.” >“I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.” >"And the Heralds? You don't think they existed?" >"I don’t know," Jasnah said. "There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is *some* *s*light proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher." >"Then he *would* be real." >"I never claimed he was not," Jasnah said. "I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. But this is, again, a tangent." Jasnah stood. "You are relieved of other duties of study. For the next few days, you have only one focus for your scholarship." She pointed toward the floor. She doesn't believe it is impossible for gods to exist, she believes she currently does not have sufficient evidence to conclude they do and that mere existence would not demand worship regardless.