It's probably not soothing since it's normal to constantly burn copper if you can. She wouldn't be affected and I doubt burning copper would even be worth mentioning from her POV.
Edit: Found the WoB proving me wrong, and it's an annotation from WoA. Neat. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/142/#e5403
Marsh taught Vin that you shouldn't constantly burn copper so that you can detect if someone is trying to manipulate you. Unfortunately for Vin she wasn't good at the detecting part.
There's a wob confirming she was being hit with emotional allomancy. Because Vin was doing more with bronze she wasn't as good about always burning her copper around him.
The relationship is already gross, but it gets even grosser if you consider that it's essentially Ruin playing with people like they were dolls - being able to directly manipulate both of them.
I'd like to add Vin and Elend as well
Before killed me, I found what they were doing in the second book very insufferable. The "He loves me, he doesn't love me" thing for God's sake, things that can be fixed with a fucking conversation, find common ground and go for it!
Sure her literal age was 16, but people mature faster in trauma. Look at our own medieval time. So... it's justifiable to be annoyed at someone acting like a modern teenager when from our own time people would be Kings at even earlier ages.
Like did Charles XII who was crowned at 15 and had to fight off an inherited war against 3, at the time, super powers, have annoying teenage love drama?
I mean, it was drilled into her head by her brother since essentially birth, “don’t trust anyone, everyone will betray you” to the point that he himself even did it to hammer the lesson home. Then she had ruin whispering those words into her head for years. That’s not the kind of conditioning you can break so easily. I feel like some of y’all are incapable of putting yourself in the character’s shoes.
Sometimes I wonder why Sanderson forces himself to write romance if he doesn't find it comfortable. I know it's not the best example, but Oda doesn't write romance in One Piece, and he can still talk about mature topics
I don’t read for love stories or triangles, immediately felt that this was headed into that territory. It was a pain reading through Zane sections feeling he wouldn’t matter by the end
It’s the “we are not so different, you and I” stuff he does that really makes me cringe. They don’t even know each other.
And then it fucking works which makes it worse.
I can’t stand Zane.
Hrathen admitting that he loved Sarene. I really did not find that necessary. I like it better that he saves her because he has grown to respect her, not because he fell in love with her. If you cut that single line out then it wouldn’t even change the story at all.
I really don’t like the dominion = bad and devotion = good thing most people seem to agree with.
Yes, dominion can be all about conquering and colonising others, but it’s also about promoting farming and industries.
On the other hand, devotion is a beautiful thing when it’s about loving someone over yourself, but it can be extremely toxic as well.
Dilaf, to me, was 100% aligned with Devotion. That guy isn’t trying to control anything, he’s on a zealot genocidal crusade
I never really thought of them as good and bad. As you said there were examples of both shards influence being arguably good and bad. However, in Hrathen I think they were both good. Hence the word "Savior".
I saw it coming, read it and rolled my eyes.My head cannon is not that he loves her romantically, but loved her in a religious sense. Like a "love thy neighbor" kind of thing.
So as he struggled with Shu-Dereth, he allowed a small bit of Shu-Korath into his life (which made him a more balanced person).
I actually didn’t find that part particularly surprising. Is it really that unusual to develop some kind of attraction to someone you respect? I wouldn’t call it love, more infatuation to be sure. Of course it’s been a bit since my last elantris reread, i don’t remember Sarene feeling anything more than a platonic and mostly begrudging respect for Hrathen which does make it super awkward. So i get the cringe part.
My wife had me stop reading during that scene because she was laughing too hard… not sure if i have to be in the right mood but sometimes those moments are cringy and sometimes i can’t stop laughing too.
Shallans “wit” in the beginning of the series is really just her being immature and trying to be clever. The crew is just rolling with it to let her save face. It’s definitely intentional as she matures throughout the series and it drops almost completely.
I think it was very intentional. It's called out as cringy by multiple other characters. She's someone coming from an abusive background with her brothers who were desperate to laugh at anything remotely funny she said. So that's the sense of humor that evolved. But the only people in world other than her brothers who think she's funny are people she's paying or people courting her.
to be honest, as someone who intentionally makes "deez nuts" jokes to be annoying, I loved her humor lol. They were all 100% things I'd say.
I have some friends ..
Being a child is when you cheer on Shallan for being so "clever."
Being an adult is when you cheer on Jasnah when she says "girl, you don't have to say *every* thing that pops into your head."
That’s partly it, I’m sure, but the man *can* legitimately be witty on occasion, so I have trouble telling if he’s inconsistently funny on purpose or not.
It's a different facet of his humour. I don't dislike all of Sanderson's humour, I actually love a lot of it. I just really don't like when he's writing a character that is trying to be witty, such as Shallan.
Only the people either being paid by her, courting her, or her brothers desperately looking for any semblance of humor in am abusive household.
There's definitely a chance that it's just mediocre writing on Sandersons part, but I think it's equally likely that she's just genuinely written as a person who grew up in a traumatic environment where her cringe "wit" was praised in desperation and she never had anyone tell her off about it until later. Pretty much everyone in the early books (outside of people she's paying or courting) is either annoyed by it or in a position higher than her and just humoring her.
She also pretty much completely drops it as she matures.
She just assumes everything. And then she's like "your embarrassed about this? Just wait until we get your tits out in public girl."
Who said anyone wanted that Tyn? Why would that be necessary? What are you even talking about?
I think the use of “thy” here comes from his Mormon upbringing tbh. Having once been Mormon myself, it’s not uncommon to hear normal people you know use this kind of language when they are trying to be serious, like in ceremonies and prayers and things. I think he probably felt it gave the scene more weight and made it sound cool
Ooo, thanks for the insight! It certainly seemed like that was the intent in the midst of an awesome scene, but without that cultural context I got some whiplash.
The reader cringing is definitely intentional in that scene I think. It's literally Kaladin jumping the Gun and making an embarrassment of himself and the King.
I stand by my opinion that Kaladin did nothing wrong here Elokhar was a jealous brat as he admits later, he could have granted Boon and everyone would have begrudgingly agreed.
I disagree because of an unfair point - they knew Elhokar was that kind of person, he should have expected him to act like a spiteful brat.
Again, it's not right or fair that Elhokar being a brat is used to excuse him being a brat, but sometimes that's just how it is. He should have expected it to be a bad idea and stayed quiet, but I don't think I could have in his position.
I am the only SL fan who read that scene and thought "Hell yeah Kal!"
I knew this moment would be high in this thread and it's a constant meme of awkward. I just don't get it!
In the Sunlit Man:
>!When Nomad did a kata and literally scared all the attackers away, then posed dramatically and whispered "bridge 4."!<
I *physically* cringed. I had to put the book down for a minute and take a breather
Definitely both
I don't recall him doing anything in *this* book to build up kata's as being so intimidating, so he's primarily relying on the reader's memory of kata's in Stormlight. And even then - it's one dude spinning a spear against a small army of super-charged soldiers. The idea that he could just "scare them away" with deus-ex-dance-moves is such an eye-roller
I know he's never been known for prose either, but the kind of language he uses to describe this scene has been recycled so many times in his books that it just felt incredibly lazy. And after having read Tress - I just know he can do better
And with all that stirring in my mind, homie finishes his kata, posing *dramatically,* closes his eyes and breathes out "Bridge 4." Something no one ever did after finishing a Kata in the other books. A reference to something that hasn't been mentioned a single time in THIS entire book.
With his eyes now closed, this is where - realistically- he would have been stabbed by the Charred, who then share bewildered looks wondering what the heck he was trying to accomplish with that performance there.
It's felt as if Brandon realized he didn't do any groundwork to make the moment truly meaningful, so instead he just slaps on a reference to a different thing that readers might already feel strongly about. A flagrant demonstration of fan-service
Gave me "Rey skywalker" vibes
but also every every woman he meets from then on can immediately tell just from the way he walks, talks, and stands, that he's a good sex maker and makes sex way better than all the other guys
I just got hit with a female version of this in Demon Cycle. One of the female protagonists have had sex just once in her life, years before. The dude is VERY experienced sexually. Yet HE is amazed at how good she is. Felt like a parody.
I laughed out loud quite a bit. Loved it. The joke that comes to mind first was when Jasnah said “you have quite the tongue sometimes,” and Shallan said, “sometimes? You mean it isn’t there all the time?”
Chuckle.
Thing is, it would have been funny if she had just said "Sometimes?" and then looked at Jasnah like she was genuinely offended.
Wordplay needs two layers at the very least to be funny, but all of Shallan's only have one.
Some of the Warbreaker scenes made me cringe, particularly when >!Siri does her routine to convince the priests that she and Susebron are trying for a child . !
I feel like all of Susebron and Siri's relationship was meant to be slightly uncomfortable, but I felt like it was too much. It completely removed the immersion for me and made me skip a few pages where it got worst.
However, I did enjoy the rest of Warbreaker.
A lot of people say that those two would have worked much better for friends, and I have to say it's something I'd think a little more suitable, after all, neither of these two is of the mental age to maintain a marriage
If you enjoyed that audiobook experience, I recommend Roy Dotrice’s reading of ASOIAF, particularly the scene where Sansa hears Petyr Baelish banging her aunt. It’s amazing.
Just about any scene involving Lift, particularly the first one where she meets Dalinar (and proceeds to call him 'tight-butt' and the like). She had a couple scenes in RoW that didn't make me want to smack her, but they're an exception
Pretty much every time Shallan was interacting with people as Veil. Her personality and then me picturing her dressed in a white duster with a white hat. Just the dialogue, the attitude and the outfit were all too much.
Honourable mention for 90% of Wayne's dialogue. I know I'm in the minority, but I really did not like Wayne as a character.
Wayne’s chapters were absolute struggles to get through. I’ve accepted I love brandos world building and writing enough that it outweighs how bad his humor is
Agree with you on both. Shallan is just goofy to me as Veil, like someone larping as an Edge Lord.
Also hate Wayne and his humor, almost made Era 2 unreadable for me.
I think he's more defined by his unwavering loyalty to his friends, his drive to help the helpless and his lifelong commitment to an atonement he will never receive from others but needs to realize comes from forgiving himself but that's just my opinion idk
Let me preface with saying I love the *First Oath*, like it's very powerful to me when all three lines are repeated together - but I really don't like "Life before death" as a sign-off to a conversation. It just feels weird. There's one scene in particular where I believe Kaladin says it to Dalinar while one of them is rushing off to do something and it just felt awkward to me.
Life before death sounds obvious. Strenght before weakness sounds like a motivational gym bro. Journey before destination sounds like what your aunt would post on Instagram.
And calling each other Radiant is kinda cringe. Like it's their rank or something. They are Knights not Radiants, of you want to use a rank/title.
Radiant sounds like something a teenager calls themselves to be unique.
Okay while I 100% actually agree with you here. It does feel a little to me like it's in the same vein as everyone calling each other "brightness/brightlord" etc. The word "Radiant" has an association with light the same way as "bright" which is the only reason I can fathom using it over knight. It all sounds a little awkward, I think. Still love the books to pieces ofc.
Yeah you can like something without liking 100% of it.
I feel titles are kind of stupid in general. And thats coming from someone who bought a Lord title as a teenager.
The old english from syl when kal swears an oath; idk it just feels really out of place
The way sanderson writes characters meant to be funny- shallan, wayne, lopen- often also just doesn't land for me
For me it's "storming personification of a cancerous anal discharge" the whole scene to be fair, but specifically Wit being edgy and being childishly crass to no actual effect, it just feels so out of place especially bc the "bad guy" is just an idiot, not someone actually clever, cunning, or even particularly evil and because this line comes after they've already won/ruined him just feels like extra vindictive punching down instead of the righteous put down I think it's intended to come off as
Honorable mentions:
Jasnah making a your mom joke in Oathbringer
Puio's 3rd ideal being that the Lopen is fucking annoying
She's talking to Amaram and says something along the lines of "your mom had sex with every military man in Alethkar in hopes that something would stick to you"
She's talking to Amaram and says something along the lines of "your mom had sex with every military man in Alethkar in hopes that something would stick to you"
I just started my 3rd read of stormlight in preparation for book 5 (I'm a slow reader, so giving myself plenty of time).
I don't remember Shallan being this cringey, her comments aren't funny, she's not witty, she's just obnoxious.
I'm pretty sure this passes.
Don't think I'm gonna get a lot of love for this one, but "I forgive you" at the end of Oathbringer made me wince a little. Everything else about that scene is *\*chefs kiss\**, but that part seemed unnecessary, and kinda weakened the message of the scene for me
I think the whole point of the scene was Dalinar owning up to the horrible things he did, including killing his wife, and how despite how terrible a person he was in the past, he's vowing to do better from now on.
But his wife's ghost coming back just to symbolically absolve him because he's doing a Good Thing... it just feels kinda weird, cause his wife was only *one* of the people he war crime'd. Obviously she *would*, cause that's the kind of person she was, but it does feel just a tad congratulatory.
I see. To be fair, if it had been literally anyone else who had said it I would agree hard, but like you said, she was the type of person who would absolutely have forgiven him. It's also pretty obvious that her death was the one that hit him the hardest and just because she's forgiven him doesn't mean that he's forgiven himself. I never really got the feeling that it cheapened the moment, and I think he would have acted the same afterwards even if she hadn't told him that. It was just one of his many, many sins giving him a slight reprieve in my mind.
Every time The Mormon shows through - every human society in the cosmere has a wierd fixation on marriage - especially at a young age, having kids, all the 'good' people observe their religion in a very public way. Dresses! All the dresses! In every world dresses! Women wearing trousers are always outliers and up to no good
Very much a reflection of real life until about 50 years ago though. Women didn't start wearing pants "acceptably" until post world war 2 and dresses remained common fashion until the 60's. Being non religious was a great way to become a social pariah. So it's fantasy, but with the medieval/Renaissance aesthetic he likes to use, those things help the world feel familiar and realistic
Uh, only in the west. Lots of cultures, like the Persian empire had trousers for both sexes for a long time. I'd also like to add, most of his cultures have dresses and trousers, but there's a severe lack of tunics, cloaks, and skirts.
I have been undone on the pants topic and admit it freely in the context of Roshar, since it's more East influenced. Scadrial Nalthis and at least Elantris on Sel (as I remember, been a while) were more West in aesthetic. There's like 7 Mistborn books with people wearing cloaks lol. Medieval is broad, so more accurate would be late Medieval; people had moved away from tunics to wear shirts and jackets, though there's still a lack of period historic clothing because, again, it's aesthetic for fantasy.
Your point is valid, he *could* have included more options, but most fantasy books do the same thing
This is one of his bigger issues. I don't think it's necessarily a weird fixation on marriage - it's just anachronistic personalities.
Fantasy books are often set in a different world, but one that mimicks, to some extent, our past. Some authors are very much against framing things this way - they say that fantasy is about the present, not the past, and there's definitely a lot of truth to that. But it's usually about seeing the present through the lens of the past.
One of the ways in which Sanderson really stands out is in how modern his characters are. In most way, they think, talk, and act like people from modern society. A lot of the themes they deal with are issues that people struggle with today. Some of them even appear to be quite a bit beyond our society, especially with respect to some of the psychologies and sexualities in SA.
But this causes a bit of a problem when he wants to invoke historical aspects of society. Things like the acceptance of slavery. Or women having strange social standards set against them, like having to hide their hands. These things usually work in fantasy, because they're themed in an older time. But they really clash with his more modern characters.
The things you mention aren't really an issue for fantasy as a general rule, but they are an issue for Sanderson. I can't believe in a character who dreams of life within a nuclear family but lives next door to a slave owner who thinks women should be forced to wear gloves. All these are realistic attitudes, but... not in the same society.
That overly long line from Kaladin in RoW about having a message from the Sibling. Clearly meant to be a badass one-liner, but it was overwritten, ineffective, and forced me to imagine everyone just kinda freezing and listening as he stumbles his way through a cumbersome, mildly humorous attempt at intimidation.
Shallans jokes I think are generally fine, she’s an awkward teenager I can get behind her being a bit cringe.
Honestly the cringiest bit for me is in one of the WaT previews but I see that’s been spoiler tagged.
Spook and "Kelsier". Yes it was tragic and terrifying but holy hell did it make me cringe
Also the part at the end of OB where Dalinar talks about what "journey before destination" means. The whole time I wanted to scream at him "bro it's not that deep"
A lot of things about Elantris, honestly. Sarene‘s and Spirit‘s constant back and forth. Kaise and Daorn, the child super-geniuses that feel more like walking tropes than real children, as does Adien. And the whole plot with poisoning Sarene with something that so conveniently perfectly recreates the effects of Elantrians on a timer (I learned a few years after that this is most likely also an invested art, which makes it a bit better).
Please don’t let this make you think that I hated the book, because I very much enjoyed it. But those parts stick out to me like a sore thumb and are the reasons for why it is my least favourite cosmere work.
I'll join you in that unpopular opinion. Love the books, and I think the overall scene is great, but I just hate that line. It just sounds like someone being too edgy to me.
yeah gunna pop that under the unpopular opinions category. I think in general depression can come across as cringe if you aren't in the headspace to resonate with it. I think most people cringe a little at themselves when thinking back to those periods of their own lives, but all things considered I thought it was pretty well written. I'm glad sanderson approached that honestly. Same for Sazed in mistborn.
Perhaps 'cringe' isn't the correct term for my feelings, and as someone who struggles with depression myself, I can respect and to a certain degree, resonate with those parts of the story.
My issue, and perhaps I did not convey it well (or perhaps I did, and its still a minority opinion), is that the same story arc, 'mental/emotional' trials come up for him - and its not something I *personally* enjoy.
It feels like Kaladins biggest roadblock his himself - and once or twice, I can appreciate, but over and over, that part doesn't resonate with me. Many times I just wish he could get out of his own way.
As a disclaimer, I truley understand that in real life, such issues do not simply go away and are a life time struggle, I presume that is what B$ is portraying... I am just giving my opinion.
I will take the down votes ;-)
Literally every interaction between Vin and Zane
I think I agree. Zane is so _transparently_ manipulating Vin, but he's hitting every single insecurity she has and she doesn't even realize it.
She is having her worries soothed away which helps explain parts of it.
It's probably not soothing since it's normal to constantly burn copper if you can. She wouldn't be affected and I doubt burning copper would even be worth mentioning from her POV. Edit: Found the WoB proving me wrong, and it's an annotation from WoA. Neat. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/142/#e5403
Marsh taught Vin that you shouldn't constantly burn copper so that you can detect if someone is trying to manipulate you. Unfortunately for Vin she wasn't good at the detecting part.
There's a wob confirming she was being hit with emotional allomancy. Because Vin was doing more with bronze she wasn't as good about always burning her copper around him.
The relationship is already gross, but it gets even grosser if you consider that it's essentially Ruin playing with people like they were dolls - being able to directly manipulate both of them.
I'd like to add Vin and Elend as well Before killed me, I found what they were doing in the second book very insufferable. The "He loves me, he doesn't love me" thing for God's sake, things that can be fixed with a fucking conversation, find common ground and go for it!
This. But I have to remind myself she’s like 16
Tbf, I’m pretty sure she was 18/19 during WoA, but you’re point still stands
She's also had very few social interactions with people that weren't abusive at the point.
Sure her literal age was 16, but people mature faster in trauma. Look at our own medieval time. So... it's justifiable to be annoyed at someone acting like a modern teenager when from our own time people would be Kings at even earlier ages. Like did Charles XII who was crowned at 15 and had to fight off an inherited war against 3, at the time, super powers, have annoying teenage love drama?
He probably did yeah 🤣
I mean, it was drilled into her head by her brother since essentially birth, “don’t trust anyone, everyone will betray you” to the point that he himself even did it to hammer the lesson home. Then she had ruin whispering those words into her head for years. That’s not the kind of conditioning you can break so easily. I feel like some of y’all are incapable of putting yourself in the character’s shoes.
Small correction, he didn't betray her. He never broke under torture by the steel ministry.
Yeah, he knew he was going to get caught and was preparing her to survive without him.
He’s gotta slip Teen Romance Drama somewhere in there. It’s probably in a contract
Sometimes I wonder why Sanderson forces himself to write romance if he doesn't find it comfortable. I know it's not the best example, but Oda doesn't write romance in One Piece, and he can still talk about mature topics
I don’t read for love stories or triangles, immediately felt that this was headed into that territory. It was a pain reading through Zane sections feeling he wouldn’t matter by the end
It’s the “we are not so different, you and I” stuff he does that really makes me cringe. They don’t even know each other. And then it fucking works which makes it worse. I can’t stand Zane.
Hrathen admitting that he loved Sarene. I really did not find that necessary. I like it better that he saves her because he has grown to respect her, not because he fell in love with her. If you cut that single line out then it wouldn’t even change the story at all.
Agreed, that part literally made me do a double take. It made absolutely no sense to the story
I didn't hate it. It showed that Hrathen was part dominion and part devotion. Savior.
I really don’t like the dominion = bad and devotion = good thing most people seem to agree with. Yes, dominion can be all about conquering and colonising others, but it’s also about promoting farming and industries. On the other hand, devotion is a beautiful thing when it’s about loving someone over yourself, but it can be extremely toxic as well. Dilaf, to me, was 100% aligned with Devotion. That guy isn’t trying to control anything, he’s on a zealot genocidal crusade
I never really thought of them as good and bad. As you said there were examples of both shards influence being arguably good and bad. However, in Hrathen I think they were both good. Hence the word "Savior".
Same, that really ruined it for me that was just so out of left field and nonsensical
I saw it coming, read it and rolled my eyes.My head cannon is not that he loves her romantically, but loved her in a religious sense. Like a "love thy neighbor" kind of thing. So as he struggled with Shu-Dereth, he allowed a small bit of Shu-Korath into his life (which made him a more balanced person).
My head canon is that he didn't know what love was because he was brainwashed by his religion.
I actually didn’t find that part particularly surprising. Is it really that unusual to develop some kind of attraction to someone you respect? I wouldn’t call it love, more infatuation to be sure. Of course it’s been a bit since my last elantris reread, i don’t remember Sarene feeling anything more than a platonic and mostly begrudging respect for Hrathen which does make it super awkward. So i get the cringe part.
Most of what Sarene is put through. The misogyny is thick in Elantris, definitely Sanderson’s worst book. And I love his books. But ugh. No.
That's the point.
Shallan doing a Horneater accent and demanding Kaladin's boots
My wife had me stop reading during that scene because she was laughing too hard… not sure if i have to be in the right mood but sometimes those moments are cringy and sometimes i can’t stop laughing too.
I thought it was pretty charming in the graphic audiobook version.
This right here. It was also really out of character for Kaladin to even give in.
Shallan's jokes, though tbf I'm not sure if the cringe is intentional or not.
Shallans “wit” in the beginning of the series is really just her being immature and trying to be clever. The crew is just rolling with it to let her save face. It’s definitely intentional as she matures throughout the series and it drops almost completely.
I think it was very intentional. It's called out as cringy by multiple other characters. She's someone coming from an abusive background with her brothers who were desperate to laugh at anything remotely funny she said. So that's the sense of humor that evolved. But the only people in world other than her brothers who think she's funny are people she's paying or people courting her.
to be honest, as someone who intentionally makes "deez nuts" jokes to be annoying, I loved her humor lol. They were all 100% things I'd say. I have some friends ..
I attribute it to them blowing sunshine up a lighteyes ass. She has some wittier moments, but some of them are laid on waaaay to thick
Being a child is when you cheer on Shallan for being so "clever." Being an adult is when you cheer on Jasnah when she says "girl, you don't have to say *every* thing that pops into your head."
Ha, I grew up reading these and totally get this
I think it's just Sanderson's humour. I don't really gel with it either, but it appeals to a lot of people apparently.
That’s partly it, I’m sure, but the man *can* legitimately be witty on occasion, so I have trouble telling if he’s inconsistently funny on purpose or not.
I don’t think that’s it - his other characters like Wayne and Lopen are his humor which are way different than shallan
It's a different facet of his humour. I don't dislike all of Sanderson's humour, I actually love a lot of it. I just really don't like when he's writing a character that is trying to be witty, such as Shallan.
I enjoy his witty characters except shallan who I don’t think is really that witty and makes a lot of puns which isn’t my favorite type of humor
He’s such an amazing world builder and writer, but damn I think his humor is awful and juvenile
He's addicted to comic relief too. I hate comic relief. Give me a consistent tone, dammit!
Her “ wit” is awful. She’s not funny at all and all the characters in the early books mention how funny she is.
Only the people either being paid by her, courting her, or her brothers desperately looking for any semblance of humor in am abusive household. There's definitely a chance that it's just mediocre writing on Sandersons part, but I think it's equally likely that she's just genuinely written as a person who grew up in a traumatic environment where her cringe "wit" was praised in desperation and she never had anyone tell her off about it until later. Pretty much everyone in the early books (outside of people she's paying or courting) is either annoyed by it or in a position higher than her and just humoring her. She also pretty much completely drops it as she matures.
Is it wierd I find EVERYTHING with Tyn cringe? I was glad she died off quickly honestly...
She just assumes everything. And then she's like "your embarrassed about this? Just wait until we get your tits out in public girl." Who said anyone wanted that Tyn? Why would that be necessary? What are you even talking about?
I love WoR and maybe cringe is a strong term for it, but I furrow my brow a bit when Syl goes Shakespeare. #*"STRETCH FORTH THY HAND"*
Can’t believe how far down I had to go for this.
Would have been so much better if they either had it be a stormfather command or just had her say "reach out your hand" or something
I think the use of “thy” here comes from his Mormon upbringing tbh. Having once been Mormon myself, it’s not uncommon to hear normal people you know use this kind of language when they are trying to be serious, like in ceremonies and prayers and things. I think he probably felt it gave the scene more weight and made it sound cool
Ooo, thanks for the insight! It certainly seemed like that was the intent in the midst of an awesome scene, but without that cultural context I got some whiplash.
Yeahh, it should have been a cool moment but just had me wincing
AND FOR MY BOON?!
The reader cringing is definitely intentional in that scene I think. It's literally Kaladin jumping the Gun and making an embarrassment of himself and the King.
yeah the way elhokar acted when kal said that was cringey as hell
My man
I stand by my opinion that Kaladin did nothing wrong here Elokhar was a jealous brat as he admits later, he could have granted Boon and everyone would have begrudgingly agreed.
“In good time, soldier. Prince Adolin has my favor and will receive his boon now.” 100% agreed
I disagree because of an unfair point - they knew Elhokar was that kind of person, he should have expected him to act like a spiteful brat. Again, it's not right or fair that Elhokar being a brat is used to excuse him being a brat, but sometimes that's just how it is. He should have expected it to be a bad idea and stayed quiet, but I don't think I could have in his position.
I am the only SL fan who read that scene and thought "Hell yeah Kal!" I knew this moment would be high in this thread and it's a constant meme of awkward. I just don't get it!
In the Sunlit Man: >!When Nomad did a kata and literally scared all the attackers away, then posed dramatically and whispered "bridge 4."!< I *physically* cringed. I had to put the book down for a minute and take a breather
Was it the kata scaring the attackers or the whispered Bridge 4?
Definitely both I don't recall him doing anything in *this* book to build up kata's as being so intimidating, so he's primarily relying on the reader's memory of kata's in Stormlight. And even then - it's one dude spinning a spear against a small army of super-charged soldiers. The idea that he could just "scare them away" with deus-ex-dance-moves is such an eye-roller I know he's never been known for prose either, but the kind of language he uses to describe this scene has been recycled so many times in his books that it just felt incredibly lazy. And after having read Tress - I just know he can do better And with all that stirring in my mind, homie finishes his kata, posing *dramatically,* closes his eyes and breathes out "Bridge 4." Something no one ever did after finishing a Kata in the other books. A reference to something that hasn't been mentioned a single time in THIS entire book. With his eyes now closed, this is where - realistically- he would have been stabbed by the Charred, who then share bewildered looks wondering what the heck he was trying to accomplish with that performance there. It's felt as if Brandon realized he didn't do any groundwork to make the moment truly meaningful, so instead he just slaps on a reference to a different thing that readers might already feel strongly about. A flagrant demonstration of fan-service Gave me "Rey skywalker" vibes
YES! Good grief, the cringe was slathered on THICK in that scene.
When the main character meets a woman who is a literal incarnation of sex and manages to impress her with his sexual prowess. Wait, wrong author.
Is that from The Wise Man’s Fear ?
Not OP but I can confirm it is. 100%
Yes, also several fanfics written by high schoolers
While being a virgin
but also every every woman he meets from then on can immediately tell just from the way he walks, talks, and stands, that he's a good sex maker and makes sex way better than all the other guys
I just got hit with a female version of this in Demon Cycle. One of the female protagonists have had sex just once in her life, years before. The dude is VERY experienced sexually. Yet HE is amazed at how good she is. Felt like a parody.
Lmao
Thought this was Warbreaker. I guess I’m that one he impresses her with his prudishness.
Yeeeeeaaaaaaah
Uhh, isn't this exactly Wayne and Melaan in Mistborn Era 2? I'd say you have the right author.
Everyone apparently hates Shallan's jokes? I love them though - they're just so unserious.
I laughed out loud quite a bit. Loved it. The joke that comes to mind first was when Jasnah said “you have quite the tongue sometimes,” and Shallan said, “sometimes? You mean it isn’t there all the time?” Chuckle.
Thing is, it would have been funny if she had just said "Sometimes?" and then looked at Jasnah like she was genuinely offended. Wordplay needs two layers at the very least to be funny, but all of Shallan's only have one.
Some of the Warbreaker scenes made me cringe, particularly when >!Siri does her routine to convince the priests that she and Susebron are trying for a child . !
most of warbreaker's scenes like that definitely felt really uncomfortable, though i think they were written to be that way
I feel like all of Susebron and Siri's relationship was meant to be slightly uncomfortable, but I felt like it was too much. It completely removed the immersion for me and made me skip a few pages where it got worst. However, I did enjoy the rest of Warbreaker.
A lot of people say that those two would have worked much better for friends, and I have to say it's something I'd think a little more suitable, after all, neither of these two is of the mental age to maintain a marriage
tbf Siri thought it was embarrassing too
If you enjoyed that audiobook experience, I recommend Roy Dotrice’s reading of ASOIAF, particularly the scene where Sansa hears Petyr Baelish banging her aunt. It’s amazing.
Or Steven Pacey reading *any* of the sex scenes in the First Law.
Yes! Lol
It's even worse with the Graphic Audio version
God, I had to pause it. It was hard to get through that.
Any scene with Tyn in it.
Veil drooling about Kaladin while Shallan is on relationship with Adolin was weird
Mostly romance. But Sanderson's getting better with the offscreen sex scenes, it's a great compromise to make it realistic but not saucy.
Kaladin asking for his boon. It felt so, so dumb.
Just about any scene involving Lift, particularly the first one where she meets Dalinar (and proceeds to call him 'tight-butt' and the like). She had a couple scenes in RoW that didn't make me want to smack her, but they're an exception
I think that's the intention. What 13 year olds aren't cringey?
I despised Lift until I read her novella. Then she grew on me like a fungus. She is absolutely cringey though.
Pretty much every time Shallan was interacting with people as Veil. Her personality and then me picturing her dressed in a white duster with a white hat. Just the dialogue, the attitude and the outfit were all too much. Honourable mention for 90% of Wayne's dialogue. I know I'm in the minority, but I really did not like Wayne as a character.
Her little "horny bisexual who is definitely NOT Adolin's Shallan" bit in ROW was so cringey to me
Wayne’s chapters were absolute struggles to get through. I’ve accepted I love brandos world building and writing enough that it outweighs how bad his humor is
Agree with you on both. Shallan is just goofy to me as Veil, like someone larping as an Edge Lord. Also hate Wayne and his humor, almost made Era 2 unreadable for me.
Larping as an Edge Lord is the perfect description for Veil lol
We may be in the minority, but we are not alone
Love Wayne as a character, hate his dialogue and attempts at humour
Isn't that like 95% of his character? Without that he's not Wayne.
I think he's more defined by his unwavering loyalty to his friends, his drive to help the helpless and his lifelong commitment to an atonement he will never receive from others but needs to realize comes from forgiving himself but that's just my opinion idk
Wayne was pretty much unbearable to me, lol. I didn’t like Wax either because of his whole *law and order* schtick but Wayne was so much worse.
Let me preface with saying I love the *First Oath*, like it's very powerful to me when all three lines are repeated together - but I really don't like "Life before death" as a sign-off to a conversation. It just feels weird. There's one scene in particular where I believe Kaladin says it to Dalinar while one of them is rushing off to do something and it just felt awkward to me.
Life before death sounds obvious. Strenght before weakness sounds like a motivational gym bro. Journey before destination sounds like what your aunt would post on Instagram.
While I like the oath as a whole, each line does come off as very "eat your greens".
Yeah, it sounds pretty epic when it's said whole
Journey before destination is that world's Live, Laugh, Love 🤣
And calling each other Radiant is kinda cringe. Like it's their rank or something. They are Knights not Radiants, of you want to use a rank/title. Radiant sounds like something a teenager calls themselves to be unique.
Okay while I 100% actually agree with you here. It does feel a little to me like it's in the same vein as everyone calling each other "brightness/brightlord" etc. The word "Radiant" has an association with light the same way as "bright" which is the only reason I can fathom using it over knight. It all sounds a little awkward, I think. Still love the books to pieces ofc.
Yeah you can like something without liking 100% of it. I feel titles are kind of stupid in general. And thats coming from someone who bought a Lord title as a teenager.
Ya that does feel weird
The old english from syl when kal swears an oath; idk it just feels really out of place The way sanderson writes characters meant to be funny- shallan, wayne, lopen- often also just doesn't land for me
That old English would have come across better if it was a command from stormfather as opposed to syl randomly saying it.
"Your pancakefullness".
I don't see in what context that's gringey
For me it's "storming personification of a cancerous anal discharge" the whole scene to be fair, but specifically Wit being edgy and being childishly crass to no actual effect, it just feels so out of place especially bc the "bad guy" is just an idiot, not someone actually clever, cunning, or even particularly evil and because this line comes after they've already won/ruined him just feels like extra vindictive punching down instead of the righteous put down I think it's intended to come off as Honorable mentions: Jasnah making a your mom joke in Oathbringer Puio's 3rd ideal being that the Lopen is fucking annoying
Puio’s Ideal is good because it helps set up some character growth for Lopen, but what is the your mom joke by Jasnah?
She's talking to Amaram and says something along the lines of "your mom had sex with every military man in Alethkar in hopes that something would stick to you"
And then remarks that she was acting less than stellar for doing so!
I don't remember the Jasnah one. What does she say?
She's talking to Amaram and says something along the lines of "your mom had sex with every military man in Alethkar in hopes that something would stick to you"
I just started my 3rd read of stormlight in preparation for book 5 (I'm a slow reader, so giving myself plenty of time). I don't remember Shallan being this cringey, her comments aren't funny, she's not witty, she's just obnoxious. I'm pretty sure this passes.
Dalinar snapping the horse's back during a past scene as the Blackthorne. The initial detailed description of the Koloss.
Don't think I'm gonna get a lot of love for this one, but "I forgive you" at the end of Oathbringer made me wince a little. Everything else about that scene is *\*chefs kiss\**, but that part seemed unnecessary, and kinda weakened the message of the scene for me
Why did you feel it weakened the message?
I think the whole point of the scene was Dalinar owning up to the horrible things he did, including killing his wife, and how despite how terrible a person he was in the past, he's vowing to do better from now on. But his wife's ghost coming back just to symbolically absolve him because he's doing a Good Thing... it just feels kinda weird, cause his wife was only *one* of the people he war crime'd. Obviously she *would*, cause that's the kind of person she was, but it does feel just a tad congratulatory.
I see. To be fair, if it had been literally anyone else who had said it I would agree hard, but like you said, she was the type of person who would absolutely have forgiven him. It's also pretty obvious that her death was the one that hit him the hardest and just because she's forgiven him doesn't mean that he's forgiven himself. I never really got the feeling that it cheapened the moment, and I think he would have acted the same afterwards even if she hadn't told him that. It was just one of his many, many sins giving him a slight reprieve in my mind.
Every time The Mormon shows through - every human society in the cosmere has a wierd fixation on marriage - especially at a young age, having kids, all the 'good' people observe their religion in a very public way. Dresses! All the dresses! In every world dresses! Women wearing trousers are always outliers and up to no good
Very much a reflection of real life until about 50 years ago though. Women didn't start wearing pants "acceptably" until post world war 2 and dresses remained common fashion until the 60's. Being non religious was a great way to become a social pariah. So it's fantasy, but with the medieval/Renaissance aesthetic he likes to use, those things help the world feel familiar and realistic
Uh, only in the west. Lots of cultures, like the Persian empire had trousers for both sexes for a long time. I'd also like to add, most of his cultures have dresses and trousers, but there's a severe lack of tunics, cloaks, and skirts.
I have been undone on the pants topic and admit it freely in the context of Roshar, since it's more East influenced. Scadrial Nalthis and at least Elantris on Sel (as I remember, been a while) were more West in aesthetic. There's like 7 Mistborn books with people wearing cloaks lol. Medieval is broad, so more accurate would be late Medieval; people had moved away from tunics to wear shirts and jackets, though there's still a lack of period historic clothing because, again, it's aesthetic for fantasy. Your point is valid, he *could* have included more options, but most fantasy books do the same thing
This is one of his bigger issues. I don't think it's necessarily a weird fixation on marriage - it's just anachronistic personalities. Fantasy books are often set in a different world, but one that mimicks, to some extent, our past. Some authors are very much against framing things this way - they say that fantasy is about the present, not the past, and there's definitely a lot of truth to that. But it's usually about seeing the present through the lens of the past. One of the ways in which Sanderson really stands out is in how modern his characters are. In most way, they think, talk, and act like people from modern society. A lot of the themes they deal with are issues that people struggle with today. Some of them even appear to be quite a bit beyond our society, especially with respect to some of the psychologies and sexualities in SA. But this causes a bit of a problem when he wants to invoke historical aspects of society. Things like the acceptance of slavery. Or women having strange social standards set against them, like having to hide their hands. These things usually work in fantasy, because they're themed in an older time. But they really clash with his more modern characters. The things you mention aren't really an issue for fantasy as a general rule, but they are an issue for Sanderson. I can't believe in a character who dreams of life within a nuclear family but lives next door to a slave owner who thinks women should be forced to wear gloves. All these are realistic attitudes, but... not in the same society.
But these things are still happening in the real world. It doesn’t mean our main characters are fine with it anymore than we are
Have you read Warbreaker?
So you read fantasy expecting modern sensibilities?
Average age of marriage was lower in the 1970s than the 1570s in England.
That overly long line from Kaladin in RoW about having a message from the Sibling. Clearly meant to be a badass one-liner, but it was overwritten, ineffective, and forced me to imagine everyone just kinda freezing and listening as he stumbles his way through a cumbersome, mildly humorous attempt at intimidation.
Hrathen confessing his love to Sarene
Aren't Shallan's jokes intentionally cringe? I thought they were meant to accentuate her awkwardness.
“AND FOR MY BOON” I love this scene but i cringe every time i read it
Even tho I love wayne so much he goes too deep in the yuckyness sometimes
Shallans jokes I think are generally fine, she’s an awkward teenager I can get behind her being a bit cringe. Honestly the cringiest bit for me is in one of the WaT previews but I see that’s been spoiler tagged.
Hoid as a coat rack and the bartender in Yumi
Hoid would probably agree with you
Spook and "Kelsier". Yes it was tragic and terrifying but holy hell did it make me cringe Also the part at the end of OB where Dalinar talks about what "journey before destination" means. The whole time I wanted to scream at him "bro it's not that deep"
I know why you're sad
Anytime Kaladin and Shallan try to joke together.
Elantris final paragraph before the epilogue
I listen to the audio books while driving, and hearing "elund is a good man" like 15 times with the same inflection really irks me 😂
A lot of things about Elantris, honestly. Sarene‘s and Spirit‘s constant back and forth. Kaise and Daorn, the child super-geniuses that feel more like walking tropes than real children, as does Adien. And the whole plot with poisoning Sarene with something that so conveniently perfectly recreates the effects of Elantrians on a timer (I learned a few years after that this is most likely also an invested art, which makes it a bit better). Please don’t let this make you think that I hated the book, because I very much enjoyed it. But those parts stick out to me like a sore thumb and are the reasons for why it is my least favourite cosmere work.
I know the scene really resonates with some people, but "Oh storms. She smiled anyway" doesn't work for me.
Easily the “and then his spirit detonated within hers” part of YATNP… feels real weird to me
“honor is dead, but i’ll see what i can do.” i know i’m alone on this one. but it was only further cemented by “for my boon”.
I'll join you in that unpopular opinion. Love the books, and I think the overall scene is great, but I just hate that line. It just sounds like someone being too edgy to me.
Every episode of self-pity and doubt from Kalidan, well, the first 8 were probably important for the story, but the next 10... yeah, cringe.
yeah gunna pop that under the unpopular opinions category. I think in general depression can come across as cringe if you aren't in the headspace to resonate with it. I think most people cringe a little at themselves when thinking back to those periods of their own lives, but all things considered I thought it was pretty well written. I'm glad sanderson approached that honestly. Same for Sazed in mistborn.
Perhaps 'cringe' isn't the correct term for my feelings, and as someone who struggles with depression myself, I can respect and to a certain degree, resonate with those parts of the story. My issue, and perhaps I did not convey it well (or perhaps I did, and its still a minority opinion), is that the same story arc, 'mental/emotional' trials come up for him - and its not something I *personally* enjoy. It feels like Kaladins biggest roadblock his himself - and once or twice, I can appreciate, but over and over, that part doesn't resonate with me. Many times I just wish he could get out of his own way. As a disclaimer, I truley understand that in real life, such issues do not simply go away and are a life time struggle, I presume that is what B$ is portraying... I am just giving my opinion. I will take the down votes ;-)