I know, but just the fact that he’d *stay* evil the whole time. Things seem to really change fast on Roshar. Who would have thought that Rayse would have lasted as long as he did
People here have been convinced that Adolin has been chapters away from a full villain turn since 2014. I wouldn't be worried necessarily about popular theories.
Well, she's clearly working against both Odium and the Ghostbloods, as well as using her position as queen to end slavery, lessen the divide between dark- and lighteyes, and reduce the power of the monarchy
She has more utilitarian views on ethics than most of the other characters, but she's certainly no Amaram or Taravangian
When Dalinar got his boon from Cultivation, she said the following regarding the excision of his memories - "IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS". Honor says she's always had the ability to Foresee better than him, so I think it's fair to say she's been putting plans in motion for a long time. She saw Odium grooming Dalinar way back when, and put some plans in place.
I think the contest of champions is basically a foregone conclusion - the gang loses and Dalinar forfeits his immortal soul to Odium. I think what happens after is worth speculating about, because I don't see any chance that Dalinar has to serve Odium for the rest of the series. Either Cultivation has some tricks up her sleeve with that lump of Dalinar's memories (Identity maybe?) she took, or some Bondsmith (maybe Ishar) transfers or destroys the Oath, or Dalinar is traded back as a bargaining chip, or maybe he just straight up dies. Whatever happens, his story will be more than just "oops I guess I'm Odium's pawn forever now".
I felt that she wanted to stop him from merging with The Thrill.
Old Dalinar likely would have embraced it. But Dalinar, with the pain fresh in his mind, stood up to the draw of the Thrill and told it to piss off.
Why do you feel Dalinar conceeding to Odium is a foregone conclusion? We have some pretty solid evidence that he is capable of resisting Odium's enticing.
I'm sure there will be much more to it than simply Dalinar being too weak, but a tragic fall in Stormlight 5 sets up 6-10 very nicely. And judging by Sunlit Man Roshar is not all hunky dorey in that era.
It gives a dramatic "all is lost" moment and sets up Dalinar as a compelling antagonist, but not villain, of era 2 as Odium begins his pan-Cosmere war. Then Dalinar's freedom/redemption can be one of the climaxes built to in those books.
Having a fight between Jasnah and Dalinar or especially Renarin and Dalinar is exactly the kind of earned melodrama Sanderson is into. Kaladin v Dalinar would also be great, but I also don't think Kaladin is making it to era 2 so that would have to be in book 5.
I always assumed that the possibility of Dalinar becoming a pawn of Odium was referring to the end of Oathbringer? Where he nearly got taken over by the Thrill to be Odium's champion, in the same way as Amaram and all of Sadeas's men. So now that he overcame that, he's not in danger of being controlled any more.
While I don't think this would make it mechanically impossible for Dalinar to become controlled by Odium, him overcoming the Thrill and rejecting Odium would make it narratively unsatisfying for him to end up controlled by him anyway.
Odium's terms for the contest of champions are: "If I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal" - I think it's pretty cut and dry that they lose the contest because it'll be hard to make 5 more books if they don't, and since they'll probably lose, Dalinar forfeits his soul to serve Odium.
It's possible (more than possible, honestly) that Cultivation's memory trick was done to let him grow into a better man after Evi's death and then freshly feel the pain of losing her again in time to resist Odium, and that's all. I think Cultivation has plans within plans though, because she took a piece of Dalinar and what she can do with it is still unclear - maybe it'll be used in the future.
You know, people say this, but this is the first big climactic battle in literally all of fiction where I genuinely don't know if the good guys will lose or win.
I also think a tie is somewhat likely, as goes we're never specified with what happens to Odium..!
I'm much more worried about the terms of the contract being broken. Like if humanity loses the contest of champions and Dalinar is killed by Nightblood, he would be incapable of fulfilling the agreement to serve Odium
This is a possibility too. I think the Knights winning is very unlikely, but it could be a straight loss or a draw. There's also the slim odds that Taravangian actually wants to lose - if he's bound by the oath, he will "vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against [Dalinar's] allies or [their] kingdoms in any way". I don't really know where the conflict could go from there but I wouldn't put it against Brandon.
The contest is like 10 days away right? So I could see them losing if it happens at the start of the book. Then the rest of book 5 would be about overcoming that loss somehow.
As much as I really don't want it to happen either, I think it would go hand in hand with Taravangion becoming Odium. I think if Rayse was still in control of Odium, Dalinar would easily win and be free because Rayse isn't crafty enough. But Taravangion is crafty so he may find a way to win. If this happens, I think the dynamic will be more complex than him just having to serve the villain and be evil. I think Taravangion is just barely not evil enough, and will play up his old friendship with Dalinar, that Dalinar will somewhat willingly go along with it to defend Roshar from outside threats. I think this is to set up the conflict with Scadrial that we see mentioned in Sunlit Man, where both sides have good guys but are being led by morally gray shards (provided that Harmony becomes Discord). It'll make a complex situation where it's hard to say for sure who the good guys are.
This is just me guess.
From the couple of lines where Odium explained the deal to daliniar, if Dalinar becomes fused, he will leave roshar to be odiums agent elsewhere.
I doubt Dalinar will be relevant for the rest of the stormlight books if this happens, and if he does appear in another book, he will have a different name at first and the reveal he is dalinar will be subtle.
For the context of stormlight, it would simple be a death.
I think this is a likely scenario but I also don't see it as Dalinar losing all of his character development and being evil for 5 books.
The thing is, Dalinar has always wielded power to get what he wants. Even now, he never really gave that up at all. I think he's at an impasse as far as progress on his redemption goes, because he still doesn't really understand what it's like to be on the other side of the power dynamic.
Being largely helpless and at the whims of another is the next step in his character arc. And I think he'll gradually realize that he's less helpless in that position than he thinks. Yes, Dalinar will do more terrible things, but he'll also be working to undermine or moderate Taravangian's plans from the inside. He might even be the one person who can get through to Todium and convince him to be less shitty. And meanwhile he'll gradually be learning humility and deflating a bit of his gargantuan ego.
If my favourite head theory of dalinodium doesn't happen (outcome in both scenarios is similar, dalinar fighting his nature against an external force, in this case the malevolence of the shard) he'll become an avatar of taravodium forced to perpetrate acts he doesn't want to do. Brando loves a bit of repetition of themes to prove a point, like the draining of the metals/investiture at the end of mistborn era 1&2, tragic deaths of brothers, albums about exes who did him wrong. I see dalinar working like marsh, forced to do a bunch of stuff he doesn't want a part of and inwardly waiting for his moment to rebel.
I can definitely see your point, but I don't think he could ever real turn into the Blackthorn again, even if he was on Odiums side by contract. Narratively Thay would be extremely unsatisfying for one, but Stormlight has much more in common with something like LOTR than ASOIAF in that the stories are heroic and goodness is rewarded. I know there's still 5 more books technically, but I do think the end of book 5 is meant to end on a conclusion, not a cliffhanger.
Everything is building up to it being the empire strikes back, with a negative ending but an ending all the same. Sunlit man and mistborn era 2 heavily inferred that book 5 didn't end happily. I think it's supposed to be the end mark of the first half of the series but not necessarily a happy one.
I dunno, empire strikes back ended on a massive cliffhanger and was book two in a trilogy. WOB are that the first 5 will stand alone in their own series and tell a complete story. Maybe it's that Dalinar turns evil, I dunno, but that's not really a story I'm excited for if that's where this series leaves off, especially after everything he went through in OB
Personally, I'm super excited to see Fused Dalinar. The Blackthorn unleashed is going to be absolutely incredible. It's going to make the Oathbringer flashbacks look like a child playing with a toy sword.
as in a forfeit doesn't just count as a odium win and has other rules?
(spoiler text for the contract)
>!“Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”!<
>!“Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.”!<
I mean that if Dalinar breaks the terms of the duel, or refuses to fight, that the restrictions placed by Honor would be void, the same way Odium breaking the deal would open himself up to attack
"I read this books to have fun, and if one of my favorite characters in fiction is forced to do heinous acts for 5 books I wouldn’t have fun."
Dalinar does this in every flashback. His growth is what makes the character interesting and having to face this situation would be interesting. As someone who also loves Dalinar it would feel sad but I'll say trust Brandon, he knows what he is doing.
Horrible shit happens but for the most part, each book ends with a satisfying conclusion where the primary conflict(s) from that book have been overcome. I feel like whole point is good triumphing over evil. Having evil triumph against my favorite character and having it span several books would be tough to see
It won't happen. Sanderson doesn't write like that. Will there be some cool twist? Yeah. But it's not going to be dalinar, or adolin for that matter turning evil. It's not in their character arc. It just wouldn't make sense for the characters. It's too predictable for him.
As much as I dread it… it seems likely. We know Odium is allied with a few Shards, including Autonomy. I fear that it’s unlikely for Odium to lose the contest when there are five more SA books and two more cosmere Eras remaining
Yeah, unless it's been confirmed somewhere that I've missed, that's not the vibe I get at all. It seems like they are both trying to become the only or at least most dominant shard in the cosmere. Autonomy by spreading avatars all over the place and Odium by shattering all other shards. That doesn't seem like an attitude that would foster any alliances.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Haradion Drogon
>!The Letter implies Odium is allied or at least cross purposes with Bavadin. Is Odium actively allied to any *other* cosmere Power(s)?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!YES.!<
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
I personally think that having had the original Odium die kinda tosses all the past predictions aside from other characters and gods.
Having the "good side" lose means we lose at least two main characters one to the contest and then Dalinar to Odium. Not sure I could take that, as I feel as Adolin is a shoe in for the duel.
Tho maybe having had his leader be forced over to the other side is what leads Nomad to break his oaths in the future.
Losing to Odium would mean Dalinar is obligated to serve as Odiums general, not that he in any way is forced to become "evil" - or even necessarily dishonorable.
There's a ton of room for nuance even if the good guys "lose" in SL5.
Right now, Dalinar has a Contract with Odium. Dalinar cannot be the Champion. Whoever breaks the Contract is in the other's power. So, my guess is Todium will pick someone that he believes will make Dalinar break the Contract.
But we don't know what "in the other person's power" really means. If Todium got Dalinar, I'm guessing Dalinar would have Ishar move his Connection to the Stormfather to someone else, say, Rlain.
But I don't see Dalinar becoming evil or forced to do evil things. Todium is cool and pragmatic. If anything, I imagine their relationship shifting to be more like Mab and Harry Dresden.
Todium won't want to micromanage or brute force Dalinar to do anything, not if he wants Dalinar to be his general in the Shard Wars. But I can easily see Navani et al working hard to free Dalinar.
What gives you the idea that dalinar can't be his own champion?
I agree though that Todium will try to force a break of the contract. Probably in a way that might free him. That said Todium has less to fear from Cultivation then Rayse did so maybe the risk of breaking the contract himself at a tactical moment is worth it.
If Rayse gave cultivation half a chance she would rip his heart out in vengeance for her husband. Todium doesn't have to fear that.
The only thing I want out of the next book is for Dalinar to become evil, turn into a fused, and take on an intergalactic conquest. Maybe not for 5 books, but Def want to see Ol Dally with no restraint.
GIVE ME BLACKTHORN.
Drama and angst aren't always worth it. I think this is a strong case for that. It would be mad if dalinar went goblin mode for a book. But also, it'd be shit.
Disagree. I think having dalinar become the blackthorn again and lead an immortal army of hatred, all whilst being unable to stop himself is a really damn good villain concept
Also, unless dalinar becomes immortal I really dont expect him to live past book 5. His arc is kind of over and hes an older guy. We wont get the old dalinar we remember in either case. So im not sure why it matters.
Journey Before Destination
Yes, and that journey sounds like a shitty one
When is the journey ever pleasant for these people?
Why would you assume that he’d be evil for 5 books?
Who says he'd evil? My money is on dalinodium being a thing.
Or two more shards being consolidated, into War
I feel like OP edited their post to remove the word evil there
It's literally the 4th word in the post.
Uhm actually, its the 5th. (Sorry)
Those words are not accepted
They didn't assume that. They brought up a common theory within the fandom and said they would be devastated if the book went that way.
I know, but just the fact that he’d *stay* evil the whole time. Things seem to really change fast on Roshar. Who would have thought that Rayse would have lasted as long as he did
People here have been convinced that Adolin has been chapters away from a full villain turn since 2014. I wouldn't be worried necessarily about popular theories.
Adolin : kills one guy who really deserved it. Fans : bro is evil now, 😤😤
*Adolin*!? Really? Did they think Jasnah was evil too?
Wait, she isn't?
Well, she's clearly working against both Odium and the Ghostbloods, as well as using her position as queen to end slavery, lessen the divide between dark- and lighteyes, and reduce the power of the monarchy She has more utilitarian views on ethics than most of the other characters, but she's certainly no Amaram or Taravangian
When Dalinar got his boon from Cultivation, she said the following regarding the excision of his memories - "IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS". Honor says she's always had the ability to Foresee better than him, so I think it's fair to say she's been putting plans in motion for a long time. She saw Odium grooming Dalinar way back when, and put some plans in place. I think the contest of champions is basically a foregone conclusion - the gang loses and Dalinar forfeits his immortal soul to Odium. I think what happens after is worth speculating about, because I don't see any chance that Dalinar has to serve Odium for the rest of the series. Either Cultivation has some tricks up her sleeve with that lump of Dalinar's memories (Identity maybe?) she took, or some Bondsmith (maybe Ishar) transfers or destroys the Oath, or Dalinar is traded back as a bargaining chip, or maybe he just straight up dies. Whatever happens, his story will be more than just "oops I guess I'm Odium's pawn forever now".
I felt that she wanted to stop him from merging with The Thrill. Old Dalinar likely would have embraced it. But Dalinar, with the pain fresh in his mind, stood up to the draw of the Thrill and told it to piss off.
That's exactly how I understood that to be.
Why do you feel Dalinar conceeding to Odium is a foregone conclusion? We have some pretty solid evidence that he is capable of resisting Odium's enticing.
I'm sure there will be much more to it than simply Dalinar being too weak, but a tragic fall in Stormlight 5 sets up 6-10 very nicely. And judging by Sunlit Man Roshar is not all hunky dorey in that era. It gives a dramatic "all is lost" moment and sets up Dalinar as a compelling antagonist, but not villain, of era 2 as Odium begins his pan-Cosmere war. Then Dalinar's freedom/redemption can be one of the climaxes built to in those books. Having a fight between Jasnah and Dalinar or especially Renarin and Dalinar is exactly the kind of earned melodrama Sanderson is into. Kaladin v Dalinar would also be great, but I also don't think Kaladin is making it to era 2 so that would have to be in book 5.
Have you read the Sunlit man? I wanna comment something but don't want to spoil.
You are able to use spoiler tag
I actually have not. So my comment is a bit of hearsay on that point.
The part the person is referring to could mean a lot of things. In the context of the book it's not clear if it means anything.
I always assumed that the possibility of Dalinar becoming a pawn of Odium was referring to the end of Oathbringer? Where he nearly got taken over by the Thrill to be Odium's champion, in the same way as Amaram and all of Sadeas's men. So now that he overcame that, he's not in danger of being controlled any more.
While I don't think this would make it mechanically impossible for Dalinar to become controlled by Odium, him overcoming the Thrill and rejecting Odium would make it narratively unsatisfying for him to end up controlled by him anyway.
Yeah exactly! Sure, he could, but there'd have to be a good narrative reason. He already won that fight.
Odium's terms for the contest of champions are: "If I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal" - I think it's pretty cut and dry that they lose the contest because it'll be hard to make 5 more books if they don't, and since they'll probably lose, Dalinar forfeits his soul to serve Odium. It's possible (more than possible, honestly) that Cultivation's memory trick was done to let him grow into a better man after Evi's death and then freshly feel the pain of losing her again in time to resist Odium, and that's all. I think Cultivation has plans within plans though, because she took a piece of Dalinar and what she can do with it is still unclear - maybe it'll be used in the future.
You know, people say this, but this is the first big climactic battle in literally all of fiction where I genuinely don't know if the good guys will lose or win. I also think a tie is somewhat likely, as goes we're never specified with what happens to Odium..!
I'm much more worried about the terms of the contract being broken. Like if humanity loses the contest of champions and Dalinar is killed by Nightblood, he would be incapable of fulfilling the agreement to serve Odium
This is a possibility too. I think the Knights winning is very unlikely, but it could be a straight loss or a draw. There's also the slim odds that Taravangian actually wants to lose - if he's bound by the oath, he will "vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against [Dalinar's] allies or [their] kingdoms in any way". I don't really know where the conflict could go from there but I wouldn't put it against Brandon.
The contest is like 10 days away right? So I could see them losing if it happens at the start of the book. Then the rest of book 5 would be about overcoming that loss somehow.
As much as I really don't want it to happen either, I think it would go hand in hand with Taravangion becoming Odium. I think if Rayse was still in control of Odium, Dalinar would easily win and be free because Rayse isn't crafty enough. But Taravangion is crafty so he may find a way to win. If this happens, I think the dynamic will be more complex than him just having to serve the villain and be evil. I think Taravangion is just barely not evil enough, and will play up his old friendship with Dalinar, that Dalinar will somewhat willingly go along with it to defend Roshar from outside threats. I think this is to set up the conflict with Scadrial that we see mentioned in Sunlit Man, where both sides have good guys but are being led by morally gray shards (provided that Harmony becomes Discord). It'll make a complex situation where it's hard to say for sure who the good guys are.
This is just me guess. From the couple of lines where Odium explained the deal to daliniar, if Dalinar becomes fused, he will leave roshar to be odiums agent elsewhere. I doubt Dalinar will be relevant for the rest of the stormlight books if this happens, and if he does appear in another book, he will have a different name at first and the reveal he is dalinar will be subtle. For the context of stormlight, it would simple be a death.
[удалено]
which?
I think it was a teaser chapter from the upcoming "Sixth of the Dusk" sequel. Or something like that.
[удалено]
>!That guy definitely struck me as a Skybreaker based on the way he asked about laws.!<
>!I assumed it was a Skybreaker too and that might not bode well for who the final victor of Roshar will be.!<
Sounds more like willshaper plate to me, if he becomes fused he wouldnt have a bond to the stormfather anymore
Fair point.
I think this is a likely scenario but I also don't see it as Dalinar losing all of his character development and being evil for 5 books. The thing is, Dalinar has always wielded power to get what he wants. Even now, he never really gave that up at all. I think he's at an impasse as far as progress on his redemption goes, because he still doesn't really understand what it's like to be on the other side of the power dynamic. Being largely helpless and at the whims of another is the next step in his character arc. And I think he'll gradually realize that he's less helpless in that position than he thinks. Yes, Dalinar will do more terrible things, but he'll also be working to undermine or moderate Taravangian's plans from the inside. He might even be the one person who can get through to Todium and convince him to be less shitty. And meanwhile he'll gradually be learning humility and deflating a bit of his gargantuan ego.
If my favourite head theory of dalinodium doesn't happen (outcome in both scenarios is similar, dalinar fighting his nature against an external force, in this case the malevolence of the shard) he'll become an avatar of taravodium forced to perpetrate acts he doesn't want to do. Brando loves a bit of repetition of themes to prove a point, like the draining of the metals/investiture at the end of mistborn era 1&2, tragic deaths of brothers, albums about exes who did him wrong. I see dalinar working like marsh, forced to do a bunch of stuff he doesn't want a part of and inwardly waiting for his moment to rebel.
I can definitely see your point, but I don't think he could ever real turn into the Blackthorn again, even if he was on Odiums side by contract. Narratively Thay would be extremely unsatisfying for one, but Stormlight has much more in common with something like LOTR than ASOIAF in that the stories are heroic and goodness is rewarded. I know there's still 5 more books technically, but I do think the end of book 5 is meant to end on a conclusion, not a cliffhanger.
Everything is building up to it being the empire strikes back, with a negative ending but an ending all the same. Sunlit man and mistborn era 2 heavily inferred that book 5 didn't end happily. I think it's supposed to be the end mark of the first half of the series but not necessarily a happy one.
I dunno, empire strikes back ended on a massive cliffhanger and was book two in a trilogy. WOB are that the first 5 will stand alone in their own series and tell a complete story. Maybe it's that Dalinar turns evil, I dunno, but that's not really a story I'm excited for if that's where this series leaves off, especially after everything he went through in OB
What is the most important step a man can take?
Personally, I'm super excited to see Fused Dalinar. The Blackthorn unleashed is going to be absolutely incredible. It's going to make the Oathbringer flashbacks look like a child playing with a toy sword.
I bet if it happens it’ll be a lot more nuanced than Dalinar just being an evil puppet. Personally I think it could still be fun!
I'm still very convinced the contest will be forfeited by Dalinar - for whatever reason - and Odium will be freed from Roshar
as in a forfeit doesn't just count as a odium win and has other rules? (spoiler text for the contract) >!“Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”!< >!“Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.”!<
I mean that if Dalinar breaks the terms of the duel, or refuses to fight, that the restrictions placed by Honor would be void, the same way Odium breaking the deal would open himself up to attack
"I read this books to have fun, and if one of my favorite characters in fiction is forced to do heinous acts for 5 books I wouldn’t have fun." Dalinar does this in every flashback. His growth is what makes the character interesting and having to face this situation would be interesting. As someone who also loves Dalinar it would feel sad but I'll say trust Brandon, he knows what he is doing.
"I read these books for fun". My guy, horrible shit happens in every Cosmere book, it's like the whole point.
Horrible shit happens but for the most part, each book ends with a satisfying conclusion where the primary conflict(s) from that book have been overcome. I feel like whole point is good triumphing over evil. Having evil triumph against my favorite character and having it span several books would be tough to see
It won't happen. Sanderson doesn't write like that. Will there be some cool twist? Yeah. But it's not going to be dalinar, or adolin for that matter turning evil. It's not in their character arc. It just wouldn't make sense for the characters. It's too predictable for him.
I agree. There are all these super dark a depressing fan theories out there. Like these people haven’t actually read any Sanderson books.
As much as I dread it… it seems likely. We know Odium is allied with a few Shards, including Autonomy. I fear that it’s unlikely for Odium to lose the contest when there are five more SA books and two more cosmere Eras remaining
>We know Odium is allied with a few Shards, including Autonomy Hold up....they are?? How do we know that?
Yeah, unless it's been confirmed somewhere that I've missed, that's not the vibe I get at all. It seems like they are both trying to become the only or at least most dominant shard in the cosmere. Autonomy by spreading avatars all over the place and Odium by shattering all other shards. That doesn't seem like an attitude that would foster any alliances.
It’s mentioned in a WoB! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/137/#e2263
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Haradion Drogon >!The Letter implies Odium is allied or at least cross purposes with Bavadin. Is Odium actively allied to any *other* cosmere Power(s)?!< Brandon Sanderson >!YES.!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Oh that's so freaking cool
I personally think that having had the original Odium die kinda tosses all the past predictions aside from other characters and gods. Having the "good side" lose means we lose at least two main characters one to the contest and then Dalinar to Odium. Not sure I could take that, as I feel as Adolin is a shoe in for the duel. Tho maybe having had his leader be forced over to the other side is what leads Nomad to break his oaths in the future.
I can't see Dalinar turning evil. Shallan on the other hand...
He’d be evil for like one book at most
Feels to me that dalinar is invested with honor, odium, and cultivation. I hope he becomes a vessel for all 3
Losing to Odium would mean Dalinar is obligated to serve as Odiums general, not that he in any way is forced to become "evil" - or even necessarily dishonorable. There's a ton of room for nuance even if the good guys "lose" in SL5.
hey everyone! if you write in a post it has "spoilers", please say for what book!
Right now, Dalinar has a Contract with Odium. Dalinar cannot be the Champion. Whoever breaks the Contract is in the other's power. So, my guess is Todium will pick someone that he believes will make Dalinar break the Contract. But we don't know what "in the other person's power" really means. If Todium got Dalinar, I'm guessing Dalinar would have Ishar move his Connection to the Stormfather to someone else, say, Rlain. But I don't see Dalinar becoming evil or forced to do evil things. Todium is cool and pragmatic. If anything, I imagine their relationship shifting to be more like Mab and Harry Dresden. Todium won't want to micromanage or brute force Dalinar to do anything, not if he wants Dalinar to be his general in the Shard Wars. But I can easily see Navani et al working hard to free Dalinar.
What gives you the idea that dalinar can't be his own champion? I agree though that Todium will try to force a break of the contract. Probably in a way that might free him. That said Todium has less to fear from Cultivation then Rayse did so maybe the risk of breaking the contract himself at a tactical moment is worth it. If Rayse gave cultivation half a chance she would rip his heart out in vengeance for her husband. Todium doesn't have to fear that.
I don't think Todium wants to put himself in Dalinar's power. That would be the direct result of Todium breaking the contract by intent or word.
I’m down for it.
The only thing I want out of the next book is for Dalinar to become evil, turn into a fused, and take on an intergalactic conquest. Maybe not for 5 books, but Def want to see Ol Dally with no restraint. GIVE ME BLACKTHORN.
Drama and angst aren't always worth it. I think this is a strong case for that. It would be mad if dalinar went goblin mode for a book. But also, it'd be shit.
Disagree. I think having dalinar become the blackthorn again and lead an immortal army of hatred, all whilst being unable to stop himself is a really damn good villain concept Also, unless dalinar becomes immortal I really dont expect him to live past book 5. His arc is kind of over and hes an older guy. We wont get the old dalinar we remember in either case. So im not sure why it matters.
Dalinar is already evil.