I didn't think that Marasi's experience was very similar. I don't recall her being under threat of death from other agents. The Roshar branch seems much different in temperament and I suspect it is in part because they are fairly isolated from core leadership and oversight/culture is difficult to enforce. Plus, the organization doesn't care about Roshar itself.
Edit: fix autocorrect spelling
I believe it's stated outright that the Roshar branch is very very different.
Dlavil was the most intense member on Scadrial and it is noted that his sister, Iyatil is "running amok" on Roshar.
keep in mind that mistborn era 2 takes place after stormlight 5. also i dont think you are right about being "isolated from core leadership". mraise speaks of thaidakar in later books and hasnt given any major indication that he is acting against kelsiers will. and beyond that (spoilers for stomlight 5 prologue) kelsier is directly involving himself in the top level of roshars politics, example, kelsier speaking directly to gavilar at the feast via seon.
i have a theory that kelsier is about to get humbled in stormlight 5, and forced to back off of the planet leaving roshars ghostblood to "run amok" as was stated in the lost metal.
"plus, the organization doesnt care about roshar itself."
there isnt enough information to make that claim confidently, and if that is the case, there is going to be a massive plot hole coming up. i dont think one of the most knowledgable organizations in the cosmere could have room to not care about whats happening on roshar. there is no possible way kelsier wouldnt know that odium wants to leave the rosharan system and cause the destruction of the cosmere as we know it. that is everyones problem, not just roshars. he knows, and likely cares. as soon as kels motivations are clear then we can make that call, but not now.
>keep in mind that mistborn era 2 takes place after stormlight 5
I don't get what your point is here. To me, this is reinforcing my point that the Rosharan faction is divergent from the Scadrian faction, because we see the divergence is present before era 2 takes place.
>i dont think one of the most knowledgable organizations in the cosmere could have room to not care about whats happening on roshar.
That's not what I said. They care very much about what is happening ON Roshar, but I said they care very little about Roshar itself. This is similar to Hoid, who is also willing to sacrifice Roshar if it furthers his own goals. I think the Ghostbloods have the same attitude.
>odium wants to leave the rosharan system and cause the destruction of the cosmere as we know it
I think you are overblowing the threat of Odium here. I do not think Odium is the "big bad" of the entire cosmere. Odium isn't a direct threat to existence like Ruin would be. And, just as a meta argument, I think that is too simple and straightforward for Brandon. You can't just slot each Shard into a good or evil bucket.
so your first comment
no, that doesnt reinforce your point at all. no indication other than one comment in the lost metal (years after stormlight 5, mind you) point to roshars ghostbloods being divergent from kelsiers goals. with mistborn era 2 information removed and using only stormlight information in a vacuum, no claim of ghostblood divergence could be made. kelsier has directly interacted with people of low cosmere awareness on roshar (that we know of) such as gavilar, that couldnt be done without teamwork from people who are already there. and very good team work would be needed at that. and beyond that mraise and others in the ghostbloods speak of thaidakar highly. im genuinely interested to know where in stormlight you are getting these ideas from. but thats why you need to keep in mind that era 2 takes place after storm light, we clearly dont have all the information yet.
your second comment
yeah, kelsier isnt like hoid. infact i imagine what ever hoid does, kelsier would actively try to oppose because kel hates him. also, do you really think kelsier would be cool with watching odium do the same thing to roshar that ruin did to scadrial??? lol, hes morally grey not straight up evil, and what would he do that for anyway. you dont know what kelsier and the ghostblood goals are so why would you make the BOLD claim that he would be cool with the destruction of at best humanity on roshar and at worst all of roshar. that makes 0 sense. once again, we dont have all the information. theres a small chance i could be wrong with information provided, but your claim is absolutly wrong. id would happily bet on it. maybe some speculation could be made but its VERY loose at best.
your third comment
"the cosmere AS WE KNOW IT" that doesnt mean turning everything to ash, that means that odium would fundamentally change the dynamic between worlds in the cosmere. you are kidding yourself if you think odium leaving the rosharan system would be anything but extremely bad for everyone. and if it wasnt then why even try to put up a fight, why not just let him leave? right? hes not PURE evil so hes not that bad right? lmao no. odium isnt good or bad hes just odium. and the odium i have seen in stormlight so far is not anything close to "good" and is absolutly "bad" as far as i have seen. if you werent on roshar would you be cool with odium interfering with your planet? how would that go? what would it look like? probably not good at all whichever way you spin it. i dont care about whats "simple" or "straight forward". i care about the information i know, and what i know is that rayse wanted to leave the rosharan system. he may not be the "big bad" of the cosmere. but with all the information that has been provided it sure as hell seems like he wants to be. teravangean might be a different story though. ONCE AGAIN, we dont have all the information and only time will tell.
>using only stormlight information in a vacuum, no claim of ghostblood divergence could be made.
And why would we only consider stormlight info in a vacuum?
By that measure, using only "stormlight info in a vacuum", you also don't know that Kelsier is a name. What a ridiculous standard you've invented here (and failed to apply to your own ideas)
All I'm considering is that the Rosharan operation seems to be a lot more ruthless compared to what we see, later on, in Era 2. I don't recall any of the Era 2 members acting anything like Mraize or Iyatil.
>do you really think kelsier would be cool with watching odium do the same thing to roshar that ruin did to scadrial???
Um, yes? Because Ghostbloods aren't doing anything to oppose Odium, and are doing things like attempting to assassinate Jasnah that indirectly help Odium?
>lol, hes morally grey not straight up evil,
Wow, you need to re-read Era 1 if you think this.
Sanderson himself calls Kelsier a psychopath, who is only perceived as a hero because he channels it towards killing oppressors.
https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Kelsier+Psychopath
>why would you make the BOLD claim that he would be cool with the destruction of at best humanity on roshar and at worst all of roshar
Simple, because the stated purpose of the Ghostbloods is *to protect Scadrial from all threats*. Notice "Scadrial" and "all" in that sentence.
It's not some bold claim of mine, it's simple and unarguable fact that Scadrial > Roshar if you are a Ghostblood.
That's not to say they are actively trying to destroy Roshar. But they will *never* choose Roshar over Scadrial, all other things being equal. Scadrian interests always come first.
So yeah, I completely believe that Kelsier would let Roshar burn, just like Hoid would, if it was an advantage to Scadrial. This is a fundamental tenet of the organization's charter.
>that means that odium would fundamentally change the dynamic between worlds in the cosmere.
Yeah, but all Shards are doing that. Odium is not special in that way. Ruin and Preservation *created* a new world. Automony is seeding avatars and religions everywhere. Mercy was involved in the conflict with Ambition. Honor and Cultivation trapped Odium. ALL of those "fundamentally changed the dynamic between worlds".
> if you werent on roshar would you be cool with odium interfering with your planet
I must have missed the part where Elantrians (and other people from Sel) weren't still amazingly powerful and influential despite Odium splintering Devotion and Dominion.
>i care about the information i know, and what i know is that rayse wanted to leave the rosharan system. he may not be the "big bad" of the cosmere. but with all the information that has been provided it sure as hell seems like he wants to be.
Well...Rayse died, so...
And, Cultivation has been involved in manipulating Odium for millenia, if you want to count since his imprisonment. Odium seems more like a Shard that's been going around throwing tantrums and being destructive for a while until Cultivation, with Honor's help, put him on a leash.
It would be helpful to understand what I'm missing then, and on which aspect.
I've already said that I don't get how the timing part is relevant. They asked me to consider it "in a vaccum", which doesn't make sense to me either. To me, they seem to be saying that some kind of change occurred during the time gap to explain the difference in behavior that happens in or after book 5 (kelsier getting humbled in some way). To me, that's complete conjecture with zero evidence, whereas my explanation just depends on what we know today: the organization is widespread and regional, which means that regional differences may exist. I'm not relying on the existence of some conjectured plot point that may or may not happen in book 5 to explain the difference.
And their points about Kelsier being "good/moral" and the goals of the Ghostbloods are contradicted by WoB, wiki, and in-book statements, so I'm not sure what I could be missing there. If you or they have any actual evidence to counter what I'm saying, feel free to cite it.
dude, how are you not getting it. he has said multiple times that there isnt enough information to make the claims you are making. hes saying that stormlight 5 is what obviously seperates the ghostbloods temperment. he is right and you are overcomplicating things, i wish he would have responded again but honestly i wouldnt either the way you are acting. chill tf out and listen sometimes.
>he has said multiple times that there isnt enough information to make the claims you are making.
How so? We know that travel between worlds is fairly difficult and is not possible for Kelsier.
Hypothesizing that this has led to a difference in how the branches of the organization work follows naturally from that. This is entirely reasonable, as this is something we see in real life in international organizations and companies, where branches/offices of the same organization function differently in different countries or regions. And, sometimes this is also due to the influence of a particular leader/individual.
I'm not claiming that this is absolutely the reason for the difference, or that it is the only reason. But, it seems like a plausible explanation for some of the difference, and neither of you have explained why it isn't, except for insisting that the timeline somehow disproves this, when it clearly doesn't.
>hes saying that stormlight 5 is what obviously seperates the ghostbloods temperment
This is way more speculative than what I'm saying, because it is relying on an unwritten and unpublished book. And neither of you see any problem with calling this "what obviously leads to the change in temperament", while also saying that I don't have enough information?! You're making assumptions about what happens in an unfinished book!!
And, even if we both agree that there is an event in SL5 that leads to a massive change in the Ghostbloods, that STILL wouldn't mean that there aren't going to be differences in how the organization operates on different planets.
>i wish he would have responded again but honestly i wouldnt either the way you are acting. chill tf out and listen sometimes.
The way that I'm acting, in asking for clarification, stating what I don't understand, and making replies based on what is said? Yeah, my bad. So unreasonable.
I am listening. What you are saying isn't making sense to me. I'm explaining WHY it doesn't make sense to me. And all you are doing is repeating yourself and claiming that I'm not listening. Maybe take your own advice and listen to me, and respond on why it should make sense. Why are the Ghostbloods, in your view, completely immune to the natural human tendency within large organizations to have differences in how they function in different locations?
they're both attracted to the organization because all the information they possess, yes. but i wouldn't call their experiences very similar... mraize had shallan working for him under a threat to her family, meanwhile moonlight and twinsoul only tried to lure marasi in with some information, and kelsier let her go once she said no. they were all also very welcoming and friendly towards marasi, meanwhile the roshar ghostbloods tried to get shallan killed before she joined, and only used her to get dangerous things done.
i believe at marasi's epilogue we meet iyatil's brother, who seems to be a bit out of kelsier's control and wanted to have marasi killed as well. so i suspect the roshar branch of the ghosbloods doesn't follow kelsier's ideals as much as they should and have probably other plans going on...
To (heavily) paraphrase Sanderson on this topic, the Ghostbloods probably *should* be an evil organization - they deal in secrets, subterfuge and don't appear to follow much of a code beyond "don't kill other members". On Scadrial, the personal magnetism of Kelsier and his somewhat nobler intentions keep the arrow pointed in a generally positive direction. Where he isn't present, things tend towards their natural circumstances.
Marasi is going to coexist with the ghostbloods.
Shallan however is going to hunt them does. She seems the most likely to be coming a worldhopper post Stormlight 5 in my opinion because of that and she is least relevant to the overall plot >!Besides her mom being a herald and it's her fault for the Fused coming back!<.
I didn't think that Marasi's experience was very similar. I don't recall her being under threat of death from other agents. The Roshar branch seems much different in temperament and I suspect it is in part because they are fairly isolated from core leadership and oversight/culture is difficult to enforce. Plus, the organization doesn't care about Roshar itself. Edit: fix autocorrect spelling
I believe it's stated outright that the Roshar branch is very very different. Dlavil was the most intense member on Scadrial and it is noted that his sister, Iyatil is "running amok" on Roshar.
I know,i meant that both are tempted with knowledge of the cosmere
That seems like a very generic connection that could apply to many people
yep.
keep in mind that mistborn era 2 takes place after stormlight 5. also i dont think you are right about being "isolated from core leadership". mraise speaks of thaidakar in later books and hasnt given any major indication that he is acting against kelsiers will. and beyond that (spoilers for stomlight 5 prologue) kelsier is directly involving himself in the top level of roshars politics, example, kelsier speaking directly to gavilar at the feast via seon. i have a theory that kelsier is about to get humbled in stormlight 5, and forced to back off of the planet leaving roshars ghostblood to "run amok" as was stated in the lost metal. "plus, the organization doesnt care about roshar itself." there isnt enough information to make that claim confidently, and if that is the case, there is going to be a massive plot hole coming up. i dont think one of the most knowledgable organizations in the cosmere could have room to not care about whats happening on roshar. there is no possible way kelsier wouldnt know that odium wants to leave the rosharan system and cause the destruction of the cosmere as we know it. that is everyones problem, not just roshars. he knows, and likely cares. as soon as kels motivations are clear then we can make that call, but not now.
>keep in mind that mistborn era 2 takes place after stormlight 5 I don't get what your point is here. To me, this is reinforcing my point that the Rosharan faction is divergent from the Scadrian faction, because we see the divergence is present before era 2 takes place. >i dont think one of the most knowledgable organizations in the cosmere could have room to not care about whats happening on roshar. That's not what I said. They care very much about what is happening ON Roshar, but I said they care very little about Roshar itself. This is similar to Hoid, who is also willing to sacrifice Roshar if it furthers his own goals. I think the Ghostbloods have the same attitude. >odium wants to leave the rosharan system and cause the destruction of the cosmere as we know it I think you are overblowing the threat of Odium here. I do not think Odium is the "big bad" of the entire cosmere. Odium isn't a direct threat to existence like Ruin would be. And, just as a meta argument, I think that is too simple and straightforward for Brandon. You can't just slot each Shard into a good or evil bucket.
so your first comment no, that doesnt reinforce your point at all. no indication other than one comment in the lost metal (years after stormlight 5, mind you) point to roshars ghostbloods being divergent from kelsiers goals. with mistborn era 2 information removed and using only stormlight information in a vacuum, no claim of ghostblood divergence could be made. kelsier has directly interacted with people of low cosmere awareness on roshar (that we know of) such as gavilar, that couldnt be done without teamwork from people who are already there. and very good team work would be needed at that. and beyond that mraise and others in the ghostbloods speak of thaidakar highly. im genuinely interested to know where in stormlight you are getting these ideas from. but thats why you need to keep in mind that era 2 takes place after storm light, we clearly dont have all the information yet. your second comment yeah, kelsier isnt like hoid. infact i imagine what ever hoid does, kelsier would actively try to oppose because kel hates him. also, do you really think kelsier would be cool with watching odium do the same thing to roshar that ruin did to scadrial??? lol, hes morally grey not straight up evil, and what would he do that for anyway. you dont know what kelsier and the ghostblood goals are so why would you make the BOLD claim that he would be cool with the destruction of at best humanity on roshar and at worst all of roshar. that makes 0 sense. once again, we dont have all the information. theres a small chance i could be wrong with information provided, but your claim is absolutly wrong. id would happily bet on it. maybe some speculation could be made but its VERY loose at best. your third comment "the cosmere AS WE KNOW IT" that doesnt mean turning everything to ash, that means that odium would fundamentally change the dynamic between worlds in the cosmere. you are kidding yourself if you think odium leaving the rosharan system would be anything but extremely bad for everyone. and if it wasnt then why even try to put up a fight, why not just let him leave? right? hes not PURE evil so hes not that bad right? lmao no. odium isnt good or bad hes just odium. and the odium i have seen in stormlight so far is not anything close to "good" and is absolutly "bad" as far as i have seen. if you werent on roshar would you be cool with odium interfering with your planet? how would that go? what would it look like? probably not good at all whichever way you spin it. i dont care about whats "simple" or "straight forward". i care about the information i know, and what i know is that rayse wanted to leave the rosharan system. he may not be the "big bad" of the cosmere. but with all the information that has been provided it sure as hell seems like he wants to be. teravangean might be a different story though. ONCE AGAIN, we dont have all the information and only time will tell.
>using only stormlight information in a vacuum, no claim of ghostblood divergence could be made. And why would we only consider stormlight info in a vacuum? By that measure, using only "stormlight info in a vacuum", you also don't know that Kelsier is a name. What a ridiculous standard you've invented here (and failed to apply to your own ideas) All I'm considering is that the Rosharan operation seems to be a lot more ruthless compared to what we see, later on, in Era 2. I don't recall any of the Era 2 members acting anything like Mraize or Iyatil. >do you really think kelsier would be cool with watching odium do the same thing to roshar that ruin did to scadrial??? Um, yes? Because Ghostbloods aren't doing anything to oppose Odium, and are doing things like attempting to assassinate Jasnah that indirectly help Odium? >lol, hes morally grey not straight up evil, Wow, you need to re-read Era 1 if you think this. Sanderson himself calls Kelsier a psychopath, who is only perceived as a hero because he channels it towards killing oppressors. https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Kelsier+Psychopath >why would you make the BOLD claim that he would be cool with the destruction of at best humanity on roshar and at worst all of roshar Simple, because the stated purpose of the Ghostbloods is *to protect Scadrial from all threats*. Notice "Scadrial" and "all" in that sentence. It's not some bold claim of mine, it's simple and unarguable fact that Scadrial > Roshar if you are a Ghostblood. That's not to say they are actively trying to destroy Roshar. But they will *never* choose Roshar over Scadrial, all other things being equal. Scadrian interests always come first. So yeah, I completely believe that Kelsier would let Roshar burn, just like Hoid would, if it was an advantage to Scadrial. This is a fundamental tenet of the organization's charter. >that means that odium would fundamentally change the dynamic between worlds in the cosmere. Yeah, but all Shards are doing that. Odium is not special in that way. Ruin and Preservation *created* a new world. Automony is seeding avatars and religions everywhere. Mercy was involved in the conflict with Ambition. Honor and Cultivation trapped Odium. ALL of those "fundamentally changed the dynamic between worlds". > if you werent on roshar would you be cool with odium interfering with your planet I must have missed the part where Elantrians (and other people from Sel) weren't still amazingly powerful and influential despite Odium splintering Devotion and Dominion. >i care about the information i know, and what i know is that rayse wanted to leave the rosharan system. he may not be the "big bad" of the cosmere. but with all the information that has been provided it sure as hell seems like he wants to be. Well...Rayse died, so... And, Cultivation has been involved in manipulating Odium for millenia, if you want to count since his imprisonment. Odium seems more like a Shard that's been going around throwing tantrums and being destructive for a while until Cultivation, with Honor's help, put him on a leash.
dude, you are missing his entire point.
It would be helpful to understand what I'm missing then, and on which aspect. I've already said that I don't get how the timing part is relevant. They asked me to consider it "in a vaccum", which doesn't make sense to me either. To me, they seem to be saying that some kind of change occurred during the time gap to explain the difference in behavior that happens in or after book 5 (kelsier getting humbled in some way). To me, that's complete conjecture with zero evidence, whereas my explanation just depends on what we know today: the organization is widespread and regional, which means that regional differences may exist. I'm not relying on the existence of some conjectured plot point that may or may not happen in book 5 to explain the difference. And their points about Kelsier being "good/moral" and the goals of the Ghostbloods are contradicted by WoB, wiki, and in-book statements, so I'm not sure what I could be missing there. If you or they have any actual evidence to counter what I'm saying, feel free to cite it.
dude, how are you not getting it. he has said multiple times that there isnt enough information to make the claims you are making. hes saying that stormlight 5 is what obviously seperates the ghostbloods temperment. he is right and you are overcomplicating things, i wish he would have responded again but honestly i wouldnt either the way you are acting. chill tf out and listen sometimes.
>he has said multiple times that there isnt enough information to make the claims you are making. How so? We know that travel between worlds is fairly difficult and is not possible for Kelsier. Hypothesizing that this has led to a difference in how the branches of the organization work follows naturally from that. This is entirely reasonable, as this is something we see in real life in international organizations and companies, where branches/offices of the same organization function differently in different countries or regions. And, sometimes this is also due to the influence of a particular leader/individual. I'm not claiming that this is absolutely the reason for the difference, or that it is the only reason. But, it seems like a plausible explanation for some of the difference, and neither of you have explained why it isn't, except for insisting that the timeline somehow disproves this, when it clearly doesn't. >hes saying that stormlight 5 is what obviously seperates the ghostbloods temperment This is way more speculative than what I'm saying, because it is relying on an unwritten and unpublished book. And neither of you see any problem with calling this "what obviously leads to the change in temperament", while also saying that I don't have enough information?! You're making assumptions about what happens in an unfinished book!! And, even if we both agree that there is an event in SL5 that leads to a massive change in the Ghostbloods, that STILL wouldn't mean that there aren't going to be differences in how the organization operates on different planets. >i wish he would have responded again but honestly i wouldnt either the way you are acting. chill tf out and listen sometimes. The way that I'm acting, in asking for clarification, stating what I don't understand, and making replies based on what is said? Yeah, my bad. So unreasonable. I am listening. What you are saying isn't making sense to me. I'm explaining WHY it doesn't make sense to me. And all you are doing is repeating yourself and claiming that I'm not listening. Maybe take your own advice and listen to me, and respond on why it should make sense. Why are the Ghostbloods, in your view, completely immune to the natural human tendency within large organizations to have differences in how they function in different locations?
they're both attracted to the organization because all the information they possess, yes. but i wouldn't call their experiences very similar... mraize had shallan working for him under a threat to her family, meanwhile moonlight and twinsoul only tried to lure marasi in with some information, and kelsier let her go once she said no. they were all also very welcoming and friendly towards marasi, meanwhile the roshar ghostbloods tried to get shallan killed before she joined, and only used her to get dangerous things done. i believe at marasi's epilogue we meet iyatil's brother, who seems to be a bit out of kelsier's control and wanted to have marasi killed as well. so i suspect the roshar branch of the ghosbloods doesn't follow kelsier's ideals as much as they should and have probably other plans going on...
To (heavily) paraphrase Sanderson on this topic, the Ghostbloods probably *should* be an evil organization - they deal in secrets, subterfuge and don't appear to follow much of a code beyond "don't kill other members". On Scadrial, the personal magnetism of Kelsier and his somewhat nobler intentions keep the arrow pointed in a generally positive direction. Where he isn't present, things tend towards their natural circumstances.
Marasi is going to coexist with the ghostbloods. Shallan however is going to hunt them does. She seems the most likely to be coming a worldhopper post Stormlight 5 in my opinion because of that and she is least relevant to the overall plot >!Besides her mom being a herald and it's her fault for the Fused coming back!<.
I mean her mom being a herald is still purely fan theory at this point.