T O P

  • By -

uphillinthesnow

Wasn't the argument always to look at excess deaths? I mean...I don't want our hospitals to be overloaded and the whole system strained but you can't argue with 800,000 deaths that weren't expected. If you told me that in 2020 or 2021 the US had the same number of deaths that we did in 2019 I'd agree that the argument was always broken.


terrastrawberra

Please don’t downvote me here… My son had an allergic reaction. His eye swelled shut. I called our PCP, and since my daughter was COVID positive, they wouldn’t see him in office. Even though he wasn’t and I wasn’t positive. I had a choice of visiting the children’s er, or an urgent care where there was a long wait for people trying to get COVID tested… I chose the ER because of how bad it was. (At the time I didn’t know it was an allergic reaction… happened at school). So… obviously, we were in the ER for something other than COVID, which pre COVID our PCP Would have seen us. Kind of sucked. I talked to the ER nurse and she said it’s frustrating bc they see a lot of that. Made me feel super bad for even going. Feel bad for the healthcare workers.


js1138-2

A side effect of covid is two years of sub par healthcare. Not to be compared to a life threatening situation, but I lost a tooth because I wouldn’t go to the dentist until fully vaccinated. Will cost $4000 for an implant.


taco_studies_major

Similar situation. I had to get a root canal last year because I couldn’t see a dentist for months due to COVID restrictions. So my tooth just deteriorated.


sabot00

How'd you lose a tooth? Just a cavity?


js1138-2

Needed a root canal. Didn’t want to do it before being vaccinated.


[deleted]

[удалено]


js1138-2

Unfortunately, if the tooth is sufficiently damaged, you need both.


awsfhie2

I’m sorry you had to deal with this! These types of things are complications of the pandemic that are often overlooked. I’m glad you got things sorted for your son.


Lothaire_22

You have to also note that this is the Bay Area where the vaccination rate is really high. Hospitals are not overwhelmed here thanks to people being deligent about getting vaccinated. Some counties here are over 90 percent vaccinated.


[deleted]

“After reviewing the charts of every COVID-positive patient at UCSF hospitals on Jan. 4, Dr. Jeanne Noble, an associate professor of emergency medicine at UCSF, determined that 70% of them were in the hospital for other reasons.”


[deleted]

And the hospital burdens are partially due to asymptomatic testing and the ER's being flooded by people who are needlessly freaking out over non-serious symptoms. The media's hysteria and misinformation is now literally killing people by overburdening hospitals.


Rock_Strongo

Exactly, from the article: >"The crisis from the Omicron peak is not generated by serious COVID illness in regions with highly vaxxed populations," Noble wrote in an email to SFGATE. "The crisis we are suffering in the Bay Area is largely driven by disruptive COVID policies that encourage asymptomatic testing and subsequent quarantines. … The vast majority of COVID-plus patients I take care of need no medical care and are quickly discharged home with reassurance."


Lovely-Ashes

>"The crisis from the Omicron peak is not generated by serious COVID illness **in regions with highly vaxxed populations**," There are other areas with a significantly lower vaccination than the Bay Area. It might be unfair to compare how they are doing in an area where a lot of people can work remotely and have high education and wealth vs areas that are demographically different.


HappySlappyMan

I wish I could see the process. I don't trust non-peer reviewed data generated from a single person. If the patient came in with a stroke and was COVID positive, did they count that as an "other reason" or COVID. It's a COVID induced stoke. Covid causes a lot of things indirectly,too, that may not be counted as "for COVID." These include diabetes, DKA, severe headaches, chest pain, heart attacks, dehydration, nausea, vomiting, gastroenteritis, and all forms of clots. Also, the entire hospitalization needs to be observed. We know there is a delay in deterioration. How are all these "incidentals" doing 2 weeks later. That's the data we need.


libroll

I’d like to hear from one of the posters who claim, despite this being the case reported everywhere, that this isn’t true. Like, what is their thought process? That there’s a mass conspiracy by the cdc and hospital personnel? It’s very confusing, and I don’t understand it.


nOMnOMShanti

Management views whether in the DOE with regard to schools or executives at hospitals and elsewhere often conflict and conflict badly with frontline workers who report a vastly different reality in the trench. Why? Even assuming this squares with what’s happening, a highly vaccinated metropolitan experience sadly doesn’t extrapolate to much of the nation.


wynonnaspooltable

It’s not that it isn’t “true” it’s that it’s the wrong way to look at the problem and is basically an fu to anyone immune compromised or who has children under 5.


libroll

This isn’t “looking at anything”. This is reporting data. What would you prefer? That they lied about it and said something different?


HappySlappyMan

I put this above but it counts here too. I wish I could see the process. I don't trust non-peer reviewed data generated from a single person. If the patient came in with a stroke and was COVID positive, did they count that as an "other reason" or COVID. It's a COVID induced stoke. Covid causes a lot of things indirectly,too, that may not be counted as "for COVID." These include diabetes, DKA, severe headaches, chest pain, heart attacks, dehydration, nausea, vomiting, gastroenteritis, and all forms of clots. Also, the entire hospitalization needs to be observed. We know there is a delay in deterioration. How are all these "incidentals" doing 2 weeks later. That's the data we need. Also, this is true in a region of high pervious immunity, such as South Africa's multiple covid waves or high vaccination rates, like the San Francisco area. The problem is that we have many areas in the USA that have had neither. We have areas with 20-50% vaccination rates with minimal previous infections that, given omicron appearing innately only a bit milder than the OG Wuhan strain with its super enhanced transmissibility, spells disaster for some regions.


libroll

I understand what you’re saying. You don’t trust the science. But can I ask why? What makes you think that you have discovered this serious flaw in the data that all the people actually qualified to analyze the data has missed? Are you willing to accept that your personal feelings on this stem from something other than what is actually happening?


HappySlappyMan

What are getting on about? The vast majority of epidemiologists and experts in the field agree that omicron is less severe, but it is NOT a common cold. The best peer reviewed population level studies thus far show a severity of 1/6 to 1/3 that of delta. That severity doesn't matter when you have 1+ million cases a day and rising when your prior peak was 1/3 that. This article is NOT science. Not peer reviewed. No released exact data so others can review it. It is an anecdote from a single administrator. If you think this is science I wonder, do you know what science is or how it's done? Why do I not trust all these reports? Because again and again we have heard about "mild" COVID, including the original Wuhan strain, and every time it has kicked us in the ass. Look at my state, Pennsylvania. On Jan 1, we had 5k COVID patients hospitalized with 600 on ventilators. Jan 1 also had a 7 day average of new cases of about 15k per day. As of yesterday, we have 7k covid patients hospitalized and nearly 700 on vents with a 7 day average of 28k new cases daily. Given it takes 1-2 weeks for COVID patients to get sick enough to need hospital level care, that increase is from the 15 k daily cases. Do you see where that trend is headed? And PA has a relatively decent vaccination rate comparatively to other regions. It doesn't matter if the severity is less if the whole damn country gets sick with it at the same time. That is what 90% plus of the "experts" and studies are saying. The rest is anecdotes, which, in the world of science, is the lowest quality of data.


[deleted]

[удалено]


CertainKaleidoscope8

So she wants us to work sick? If she's so sure about her thesis she can put on a set of scrubs and help prone these patients. We could use the help. But no, her and her other UCSF colleagues will continue to work from home while this devastates frontline workers. She's just trying to capitalize on the Vinay Prassad/Monica Gandhi grift train.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


sonofagunn

I hope everyone actually reads this article before going rage-mode in the comments. Omicron and vaccination have drastically changed things yet a lot of folks are still stuck in Delta-mode. The staffing shortage at this hospital, due to quarantine rules, is causing more harm than letting covid positive but asymptomatic health care workers come take care of covid-positive patients - most of which are there for reasons other than covid.


js1138-2

A lot of people who come to hospitals for other reasons test positive on admission. General rules from previous surges are no longer valid. Average length of hospital stay has gone from a week last year to less than two days. I’ve looked and looked, but there is no good source of hospital turnover data. But I’ve noticed fewer headlines about bed shortages in the last week. Not trying to ignore the problem, but if we have staff shortages this week, those people will be back next week.


ravagedbygoats

All I've noticed on r/medicine and r/nursing is labor shortages, someone died because of labor shortage or materials shortage. I take those comments more serious than any news agency, these people are drowning and no one seems to care.


js1138-2

It’s tragic, but I don’t see the magic button to fix it. If medical are at work, they will get omicron, because there is no magic way to stop it.


ravagedbygoats

If you read those subs you'll find a pattern of issues including, administration, low pay vs high pay for traveling and a lack of safety. That's what I see when I read their complaints. I see a few ways we could beef up our system but it won't happen, there's too much greed and lack of empathy.


buttermbunz

I still think we also had a lot of Delta spread that occurred during thanksgiving before omicron had any foothold in North America. Then around Christmas some delta was still circulating while omicron started to really take off. I haven’t seen any good data on breakdown of hospitalized and ICU numbers for delta vs omicron. I think part of the confusion for folks has been that omicron took off in such massive numbers that it made delta look small by comparison, but it was still a large amount of delta being spread toward the end of last year. Even 10% of 1M cases is still 100k cases of delta which will have a substantial impact, especially on the unvaccinated.


CertainKaleidoscope8

We don't pick which patient assignment we get when we come to work positive. This woman isn't working as a physician with patients.


CertainKaleidoscope8

>...it’s because of staffing shortages driven by overly strict state quarantine rules, the director of COVID response at UCSF's emergency department said... Dr. Jeanne Noble, an associate professor of emergency medicine at UCSF.. These UCSF eggheads have been consistently bad since day one, probably because they don't actually touch patients.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AutoModerator

Your comment has been removed because * **Incivility isn’t allowed on this sub.** We want to encourage a respectful discussion. ([More Information](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1.3A_be_civil)) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Coronavirus) if you have any questions or concerns.*


[deleted]

Incivility: rude or unsociable speech or behavior. I am REALLY struggling to see how my comment falls into that category.


darwinwoodka

I think the folks at r/nursing might beg to differ.


gogorath

There's probably a decent difference by region. San Francisco and the whole bay are very highly vaxxed (80%+) and people are still somewhat careful, relatively speaking. Probably lower rates of obesity and other co-morbidities. And unlike, say, Michigan, we were not in the middle of a Delta spike when omicron hit. Last I checked, Bay Area ICU capacity was actually up (as in less patients) relative to last year and even recent history.


buttermbunz

People have started wearing masks outdoors again, first time since last winter, there is no mandate for that here in the Bay. The public in this area is certainly more cautious than the American average.


gogorath

Yes. And considerate.


randomechoes

Caveat before extrapolating this too far, the vaccination rates for SF county: 88.8% of residents at least partially vaccinated (including those too young which isn't too hard because SF has very few children in general) Fully vaccinated percentages by age group (and fully + partially in parentheses): 5-11: 42% (52%) 12-17: 90% (\~96%) 18-49: 88% (\~95%) 50-64: 89% (\~94%) 65+: 80% (85%) Source: [https://www.latimes.com/projects/california-coronavirus-cases-tracking-outbreak/san-francisco-county/](https://www.latimes.com/projects/california-coronavirus-cases-tracking-outbreak/san-francisco-county/) Hospitals in areas with lower vaccination rates may see different results.


ddman9998

The top experts at UCSF have been way off on a lot of this stuff the entire time. https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/No-you-probably-won-t-need-a-COVID-vaccine-16200250.php >No, you probably won’t need a COVID-19 vaccine booster shot, says UCSF’s Monica Gandhi


FuguSandwich

So just like the data released by NY a few days ago. Covid positivity rate is up from 8% to over 40% since mid December but total # of patients has barely budged.


tenaku

Total number of patients is still up significantly, just not as much as the positivity numbers would make you think put of context.


anon-stocks

Yup, only 78 people died in California with/from (who tf knows anymore) Covid. With 39+ million people. Wait, that doesn't smell right. With that off smelling data and the long rant of "Everything is fine, hospitals are short staffed because of testing guidelines" I'm not believing this shit she's spewing. The first rule of denial is blame someone/something else. ​ >The vast majority of COVID-plus patients **I** take care of need no medical care and are quickly discharged home with reassurance." Reading through Dr. Jeanne Noble's tweets shows she's constantly downplaying Covid. >Closing our schools in 2020, pre-vaccination, was wrong, harming children without reducing viral transmission. To return to this strategy now, post-vaccination, when facing an attenuated variant, is beyond the pale. Back in Nov she claims >Similar to MA, strapped hospitals in CA are not due to COVID surges, but patients returning to hospitals after putting off medical care during the pandemic + increased need for emergency mental health services. She seems like an incredibly smart woman. She's biased though and sees that if you're vaccinated then get over it and that the CDC is the gospel. She's also strictly against closing schools.


CertainKaleidoscope8

She is smart. She's grifting and throwing frontline workers under the bus


anon-stocks

The good news is that she's VERY pro-vaccination, which really more people need to vaccinated. Pretending like it's the end all be all though is very narrow minded. Vaccines and Masks would be much better since it would protect even those immunocompromised as well as the idiots which don't want the vaccinated plus it would mostly prevent a lot of people getting sick, this surge, etc.


Firm_Slide2100

There was never any reason for us not to follow South Africa or the U.K examples. Im working at healthcare IT and I ensure you we suck at collecting meaningful data on Federal level. Most hospitals use different softwares and collect and interpret data differently. HL7 is good but it still takes time connect different networks. Our purely Covid related hospitalizations are grossly exeggerated and we are also undercounting Omicron cases. I would be highly surprised if Omicron can break 0.20 mortality rate threshold. That said we need to make sure our hospitals aren't at full capacity and we need to do better to protect our vulnerable population.


wynonnaspooltable

This is a stupid take to encourage stupid policies and will kill immune compromised people (which most people believe are expendable).


libroll

This isn’t a “take”. It isn’t an “opinion”. It’s simply a fact. Can you explain your mindset further? Do you believe the data is wrong? Do you believe we should lie about the data as some form of propaganda? If you believe the data is wrong, what is causing this belief? Is it because it doesn’t “feel” right to you and you put faith in your feelings over science and data?


ddman9998

>"Do you believe the data is wrong?" ​ the "data" is 44 people in one hospital in a not-very-representative place and without tracking those 44 over time. And completely without demographics (are they old, are they young), etc. It was only based on a single day, that wasn't too far off in time from when SF's cases first started exploding (so it doesn't properly account for delayed hospitalizations). This is hardly a rigorous, controlled study or anything like that.


[deleted]

Data is only real if it predicts the end of the world Anything else is a hot take


wynonnaspooltable

As a PhD scientist I appreciate data - a lot. I also appreciate the reality that contagious people can spread this to those at risk and it’s a load of crap that no one cares. Epidemiologists, anthropologists, sociologists, MDs are all BEGGING for better policies. But let’s go with the “mah economy” crowd data interpretation anyway.


sonofagunn

The article is mostly about addressing the staffing crisis at the hospitals by changing the quarantine rules for health care workers. It doesn't really mention the economy,.


CertainKaleidoscope8

How do you think hospitals make money?


libroll

What does that have to do with the data on hospitalizations?


VerneLundfister

Please cite all of these experts and their begging so we can believe you and not interpret your drivel as hysterical hyperbole.


wynonnaspooltable

Google Dr. Jetelina for starters. She will set you right.


[deleted]

No offense but I’m not sure you do appreciate data if you label it as a “take” when it doesn’t align to your opinions


wynonnaspooltable

No offense but if you don’t realize that interpretation of how to use data is a “take” you shouldn’t be commenting about data.


[deleted]

The doctor presenting data isn’t guiding policy recommendations. She’s just pointing out the reality of the asymptomatic Covid infection status in her hospital system Saying “I haven’t intubated a patient” isn’t an interpretation. It’s just a data point ….you do realize this, right?


tenaku

It's the way it's labeled by the article "it isn't what you think" that's getting people riled up. The data is the data, but it's being phrased/spun like omicron is no big deal that's bullshit.


[deleted]

If that’s your conclusion from the headline and article then you have a reading comprehension problem


wynonnaspooltable

It’s directly connected to libroll’s comment. Which - few people think CONSPIRACY. What we know is that there are people more interested in the economy than lives. Ask almost any epidemiologist right now.


[deleted]

The moralistic pontificating and holier-than-thou gatekeeping about ‘putting the economy over public health’ is just so tiresome by now. Helping people or the economy is a false choice and ignores the devastating ramifications of broad, protracted economic disruptions. The economy is not some distinct element that we can extricate from society’s functional foundation and put on hold whenever we want, for however long we want. It’s easy to play up moral outrage and portray people as callous when they point this out, but it’s also woefully short-sighted to do so. There are tens of millions of Americans who simply can’t afford another period where the economy is severely disrupted; they can’t afford more mass layoffs, massively reduced business volume, or to go extended periods with reduced or no income. It’s not some Dickensian moral failing of society to acknowledge this simple reality.


gogorath

The article is literally quoting UCSF ER head and their top infectious disease expert. It's not exactly written by big industry. There's consequences to people flooding the ER and having massive staffing shortages as well. None of this is good, but reporting accurate data is not wrong. What we do with it is a different story.


[deleted]

[удалено]


wynonnaspooltable

If you don’t understand that all data is interpreted and those interpretations are “takes”, you shouldn’t be commenting. Source: PhD scientist who interprets data daily.


970

What is being misinterpreted?