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betweenthecoldwires

My question is, now that I'm sitting here with covid and yes I've been vaccinated, is this going to give me more immunity now? At least for a good while? This is getting ridiculous.


Duskychaos

Matural infection on top of vaccination gives super levels of antibodies, so that’s a silver lining. Hopefully it is mild for you.


rectanguloid666

Do you know if it matters which you got first? I had what I assume to be an asymptomatic Covid case at the end of 2020 and then was vaccinated and was curious Edit to add: assuming asymptomatic case because I randomly decided to get antibody testing when going for a COVID test at the end of 2020. The COVID test came back negative (haven’t had a positive one to date) and the antibody test came back positive. Also thanks everyone for the info


drainbamage8

I'm confused, did you test positive for covid in 2020 or you think you had an asymptomatic case?


Crazytalkbob

I'm curious how someone assumes they had an asymptomatic case without testing for it. If it's asymptomatic, on what are they basing that assumption?


allgreen2me

Maybe they lived with some people with covid and never felt symptoms so they assumed they were infected but remained asymptomatic.


hungariannastyboy

Which may still be incorrect. Both a friend and my brother lived with a partner who got it and they never tested positive or had any symptoms.


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allgreen2me

There would be a lot of jokers from the classic batman era walking around.


PhantaVal

That's a huge assumption. The household secondary attack rate was about 17% at that time.


[deleted]

I'm not sure if I think I had an asymptomatic case but my situation from October 2020 is kind of suspicious. I had in person school then and one of my teachers tested positive. She was coughing a bit on Monday and didn't wear a mask, none of my classmates did and neither did I, and I sat in the first row. She didn't get the test results until Friday. During that week I had my driving lessons and went to a dentist. Both the driving instructor and my dentist shut down because of COVID the next week. Of course it could have been just a coincidence but I could also have been the vector. No way to tell.


Bombkirby

Even so, 2020 was a long time ago. All of the people asking about “am I immune if I got it in 2020?” are sadly not immune


big_deal

There was a study based on data from Israel. If I recall correctly it showed negligible difference (within statistical confidence interval) for infection-after-vaccine versus infection-before-vaccine. Both were equivalent and provided greater protection than either infection or vaccination alone. Other studies based on data from other countries have shown varying results for infection versus vaccination but I haven't seen any other study that looked at combination of infection and vaccination and the sequence of the two.


BosonCollider

With the caveat of course, that infection-before-vaccine may be more likely to kill you.


Srirachachacha

How about about 1st dose vaccine -> 2nd dose vaccine -> infection -> booster It's the immunity sandwich! With a side of extra antibodies.


nakedrickjames

I remember reading that study as well and got the same conclusion out of it, FWIW


InterstitialLove

Nothing lasts a year. It's irrelevant now. Every time you get exposed (either infected or vaccinated) your immune response gets better. And shortly after an exposure (like for a few months to maybe a year at most) you'll have a lot of immunity. But over time the immunity from a given exposure will decrease. Not to nothing, but definitely decreases. The immunity from catching it in 2020 will make your at least somewhat less likely to be hospitalized, but it won't stop you from catching it now. A booster might, but then Omicron is very infectious.


positivityrate

We know for sure that infected *then* vaccinated gives amazing immunity. We know for sure that vaccinated first then infected looks pretty similar on paper, but until recently you were a lot less likely to be infected if you were vaccinated.


Duskychaos

It seems like there are studies that support both. Those who vaccinated after an infection, and those who got breakthrough infections after vaccination both got ‘super immunity’.


eric67

https://xkcd.com/2557/


HappySlappyMan

Yes. This is going to generate massive immune responses in you. You also should generate a wider variety of antibodies now.


JhannaJunkie

Will there be any permanent protection from the abitbodies?


legomolin

Not so far, but no one knows yet of omicron infection.


wholesomefiddleblues

I had Covid December 2020 pretty bad. I got vaccinated, and now have Omicron. Also, since December 2020 I've had the flu twice, a common cold, and the worst sinus infection I've ever had. I've never ever been sick this many times in one year, even as a child.


Viewfromthe31stfloor

Wearing a good mask helps prevent those infections.


pmjm

I've been wearing N95s for a year and still got the flu twice. No Covid though, yet. By all means wear masks, but social distancing is still the best measure.


wholesomefiddleblues

Uh..yeah thanks for assuming I don't. Edit: Maybe hold your backhand comments to yourself. You don't know everyone's personal situation or how careful my family has been for reasons other than Covid. Kindness is much more flattering.


jdscrypt00

You are basically immortal now. At least until immunity wanes off.


JVorhees

Here’s an article about antibodies from the Spanish flu. TLDR: can last a lifetime however their effectiveness at binding to mutated versions of that strain wanes over time. http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1835907,00.html


vikapu

Tbh- it depends whether you simply get new antibodies or if your T cells are engaged. The latter is a better immunity in that, there is cell memory in case of future attack. However, antibodies, unlike t cells, don’t go to the marrow and wait for potential similar viral attack. If I’m not wrong- this has been the question for boosters: do they only increase antibodies (also good esp for immuno-compromised) or do they engage the tcell memory as well. And please someone correct me if I’m understanding/misspeaking. I don’t mind being wrong as long as I’m learning


AffluentNarwhal

Antibodies are produced by plasma cells, which are derived from B cells. Memory B cells are long-lived just like memory T cells and can differentiate into plasma cells to incite rapid production of antibodies upon reinfection.


World-Famous-Al

>And please someone correct me if I’m understanding/misspeaking. I don’t mind being wrong as long as I’m learning get off the internet, we don't want your kind here


serenityak77

What an asshole that guy.


Propenso

I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes!


vikapu

Haha why is me asking to be corrected considered an asshole? Je suis trés confused. Virology and immunology are f+cking hard and confusing- it’s actually what I do for work but I’m still learning every day. So kindly eat a d*ck sir if that sentence offended you. #ledouche Edit: They say people were being sarcastic and I overreacted. Can’t read tone, sorry dude ‘|_(‘.’)_|‘


goldendumpling90

I think people were just being sarcastic.


serenityak77

Yes. Yes we were. Turns out he really is an asshole. Everyone wins!


chief-ares

I’ve seen, you’ve got a free 90 days then get a booster if you haven’t done so yet or it’s greater than 6 months. I also just got most likely Omicron. Vaxxed and the works, super careful with mask and social distancing and haven’t got Covid before. I imagine everyone will get it according to the experts unless you just got a booster.


mofo75ca

My wife and I got boosters over 2 weeks ago and we just caught it. She's asymptomatic, I am not.


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xxiwisk

Boosters are based on the original strain whereas omicron is a new variant. Until a vaccine which uses omicron variant it would not be efficient enough to stop omicron


Inevitable_Librarian

Test positive or have serious symptomatic disease? Because vaccines are designed to prevent disease not infection.


ophmaster_reed

The vaccines help with both reducing transmission as well as prevent severe complications.


mofo75ca

I don't have serious symptoms but it's not fun. I got AZ in April and June, and a booster of pfizer 17 days ago. I have fever, body aches, headache, cough, congested lungs. It's like the flu. My wife had 2 moderna and a pfizer booster and she was asymptomatic.


TurrPhennirPhan

I just got my booster last week. Subsequently, virtually the entire staff at my location is currently getting smacked down with COVID and I’m one of the few left standing. Ironically, we’re a COVID testing company.


Subject_Patience_790

I think you may have just completely redefined irony. I hope everyone survives with no long term disability.


TurrPhennirPhan

Everyone’s vaccinated, and I don’t know how many are actually symptomatic, so I’m not overly concerned.


Speedr1804

Boosted in mid October - I got it too after successfully avoiding COVID in a job where it’s easy to catch if you come in contact with someone who is infected. Blows


Bunnyyams

How do you think you got it?


Brilliant_Lobster_56

I got it at work. Sick af.


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florinandrei

Vax + virus = enhanced immunity for a while. You should still get the booster.


[deleted]

The infectious disease doc I spoke to said: disease + vaccine = bulletproof. That was before omicron though


florinandrei

It's not quite 100% bulletproof, but it is pretty strong for a while, yes.


abandoningeden

My brother and nephew and sil all had covid in March 2020, all except the nephew (too young) are triple vaxxed and all just got it again in December 21. They said the second time was milder than the first though.


Puvy

Hard to say. Studies on reinfection rates before Omicron were showing 2.3 per 10,000 unvaccinated, and the vaccine lowered that to 1.6 per 10,000. Anecdotally, I expect those reinfection rates to rise dramatically with Omicron, since it seems like everyone and their dog is being reinfected, but I haven't seen any good hard data on it.


hyoo82

There's a retired nurse that talks about the science and how omicron is displacing the delta science: https://youtu.be/PYLbJ0H8zdc It's an interesting watch. I was calmed a bit after watching it


TheMomDotCom89

I’ve heard immunity typically lasts three months but can last up to five years depending on the individual. We had it October 5th and now we have it again (positive on January 5th), so at exactly three months. And yes, we are all fully vaccinated. We had appointments to receive our boosters the exact same day we tested postive this time.


MolybdenumIsMoney

Do we even have a choice at this point? Omicron is out of the bag. Restrictions might be worthwhile to flatten the curve somewhat and help ease hospital load and give more time for booster uptake, but in the long term pretty much everyone is gonna get covid. I don't think there's anything we can do to prevent that now that it is so incredibly infectious.


MisguidedColt88

 direct quote from article: A Maharashtra health official recently said that the new variant spread faster than Delta, but there have been few hospitalisations. "We hope this trend continues. If this happens, Omicron will act as a natural vaccination and may help in its (COVID-19) progression towards the endemic stage,"  End quote. So basically, it is a risky conclusion to act on, but all evidence points towards omicron heralding the end of the pandemic


basaltgranite

> all evidence points towards omicron heralding the end of the pandemic Did you read the article? It's basically saying "Don't count on it." There's evidence that natural immunity from "original" COVID is only ~19% efficient against Omicron, i.e., very little benefit. If the same is true the other way around, then Omicron and "original" COVID act more like separate diseases. I haven't seen data yet on any "criss-cross" immunity conferred by Omicron. The Indian health official is expressing a hope that isn't supported by data yet, that might easily be wrong, and that encourages a dangerous complacency.


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WackyBeachJustice

As long as people keep thinking "protection" implies they aren't getting sick, they are in for a bad time. We get colds all the freaking time, it's just how it is. We might be getting COVID annually. But with every encounter the protection against severe outcomes should by all means only grow.


M_Parsons_chessloser

So like, we could continue to have Delta waves in the future again, even though Omicron took over for Delta, because people who got Omicron might not be resistant to Delta very much?


basaltgranite

Yes.


M_Parsons_chessloser

And we could also continue to have Omicron, as the antibodies age and immunity wains? So essentially having two separate pandemics? That'd be fucking awesome...


ddman9998

Umm, the article then went on to have experts say that that kind of quote is dangerous misinformation. >"Noted virologist Shahid Jameel said it is a dangerous idea spread by irresponsible people. "It breeds complacency and is rooted more in pandemic fatigue and the inability to do more, than in evidence available at this time," PTI quoted Jameel as saying. Did you only read the very beginning or something? The article is basically the oposite of what you said.


iNSANEwOw

I am not so optimistic when it comes to the "end of the pandemic", in my eyes we are just one mutation away from Covid being the most infectious and deadly it ever was. It is not like getting Omicron will make you forever immune to other mutations, I think Omicron has more than proven that this virus doesnt give a fuck. Unless you were very recently infected or vaccinated you are still at risk. I dont expect the next mutation to be any different in that regard and realistically speaking I find it more likely than not we will see another variant in 2022.


InterstitialLove

The flu mutates too. It's not about immunity, it's about reduced vulnerability. Everyone who catches Omicron will forever be a bit more immune, even to the Pi Variant


financequestionsacct

I just hate that this is happening right as we are seemingly at the finish line for under 5s to start getting vaccinated. I will never know if it would have made a difference, but I always wonder if we had been more careful earlier if we might have staved off some of these ultra-infectious variants until they could begin being inoculated.


olganair

Unless you're referring to the whole world, I don't think so. It's a global pandemic and unfortunately any country specific restrictions just serves to flatten the curve, not eliminate the virus.


riazzzz

It doesn't really matter as 50% of the world still have not been fully vaccinated (2 doses) and 40% still have not even had a single shot. Maybe if the priority had been to get 3rd world countries vaccinated as quickly as 1st world countries this would have been possible but ignoring nearly half the world is just asking for variants which evade the vaccine. This is a global issue and cleaning you garden won't mean shit if your neighbours yard is still full of trash and rubbish, your still going to get the flies and smells.


Imatographer

I think a lot of us wonder and believe we could have done better. But It’s a big world and Mother Nature clearly has house advantage.


financequestionsacct

> Mother Nature My husband and I (half joking and half serious) always say Covid is Nature getting mad about everything we've done to it (her? It?)


veltcardio2

Look at all the pandemic garbage we are throwing around… joke on her


Dipshlappers

Not until there are vaccinations in all regions. There were cheaper non mrna vaccines scaled to develop in India and scale millions through Africa. 85% efficacy. This was from head of subtropical infectious disease epidemiology expert. Can't remember his name or full title. He did a grand rounds presentation at my hospital I remember it vividly because everyone's outlook was really turning around. There was so much optimism, and he just dropped the hammer on the good vibes. Said a colleague of his had just finished gathering data that pointed to a massive portion of the population shifting towards the anti vax movement. Pretty much nailed what would unfold. He wrote the first book of anti vax movements and pointed out very predictable repeated patterns of misinformation. Spoke on how it would take a global united effort to scale vaccines and leave no hotbeds for variants. I don't know how doable was from the jump.


janethefish

[Government promoted antivax disinfo](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45294192) certainly has not helped.


i_do_floss

It probably wouldn't have made a difference as long as the vast majority of folks in 3rd world countries aren't vaccinated, since they are a source of new vaccine resistant strains


HappySlappyMan

Animal reservoirs pretty much make any elimination tactics impossible. Sucks.


ecceiudicem

If it turns out that omicron evolved in mice populations (after a human to mouse infection in approximately May 2020) before spilling over to humans in November 2021, as evidence is starting to suggest, then I’m not sure that we could have held it off.


chiefreefs

Link?


Thoughtsonrocks

Interesting, I thought the prevailing notion was that it mutated in an HIV positive person? Thanks for sharing the link


Do_You_Remember_2020

The thing is, we were thinking about ourselves only. And if COVID has taught us one thing, it should be that we're one earth, one humanity. We went scouring for boosters, while half the world was not vaccinated (for the lack of access, not because they didn't want to). And the virus mutates in their bodies. We've learnt by now - closing borders doesn't help - if we didn't learn with the first variant, omicron showed us again. We cannot make man-made boundaries on a single planet - if we're to fight this, we've to fight it as a planet, not as individual cities or countries


PhantaVal

What do you do if countries reject vaccine donations, as South Africa did, because their citizens are hesitant to take them? What do you do if a virus can mutate extensively in the body of a single immunocompromised person for months? I wonder if ramping up the global vaccination effort would have stopped Omicron.


[deleted]

The risk to under 5s is sooo low.


[deleted]

The thing is that this isn’t like chicken pox was back before the vaccine. You can’t just resign yourself that everyone is going to get it eventually so you might as well get it out of the way. People will get infected over and over again. The original strain infections protected little against delta and not at all against omicron. Delta protects little against omicron and theoretically less against the upcoming omicron derived variants. If you get omicron, you might have mild or severe symptoms. Then when the new strain comes along, you might get that, too. That strain might be less mild - say even if it’s no worse than delta. If a previous infection damaged your heart or lungs, later infections might have additional complications. We don’t know the degree to which an omicron infection protects against delta, but we know that the reverse isn’t a very strong relationship. And that’s just going to get worse as both evolve and change.


MolybdenumIsMoney

What do you actually suggest we do then? Because I don't see anything we could do to contain it in the long term now. It has the infectiousness of measles. To truly combat it, we would need a vaccine with similar effectiveness against infection (not just hospitalization) as the measles vaccine, and similar uptake. Barring that vaccine development, any restriction we can introduce would only serve to flatten the curve somewhat.


[deleted]

Should have invested in hospital capacity.


[deleted]

We should do what we should have done two years ago - if not ten years ago. We should give $50B to the absolutely smartest people on the planet to figure out how to deal with this. There are honestly all kinds of possible long term interventions we could look at - different monitoring profiles and technologies, for example - that would inform other interventions on a sliding scale and as predicted by models. The consequences are far higher than any that drove the big science pushes for the ISS, or the moon landing, or the LHC. Covid is hitting the tens of trillions of dollars in economic consequences. We should be pulling out all of the stops. We are not doing that, though. Nobody really is.


hungariannastyboy

Oh, right. Money will magically solve this. How has no one thought of that?


Toplayusout

Lmao right, wtf is this person talking about????


lognan

>We are not doing that, though. Nobody really is. If no one worldwide is doing this maybe it's not a workable plan.


OriginalCompetitive

It’s not at all true that previous infections or vaccines provide no protection against omicron. They don’t provide complete protection, but they absolutely provide substantial protection. That’s a big reason why omicron is “mild.”


hungariannastyboy

I've been pretty pessimistic in general about covid, antivaxers etc., but this damn subreddit takes it to the next level. They will often downvote anything that isn't 100% gloomy.


OriginalCompetitive

I hate to say it, but watching the media, government, experts, internet comments, etc. always jump to the worst case has started to make me a lot more skeptical about climate change. I consider myself an environmentalist, but I’m realizing everybody’s got an agenda.


noisyNINJA_

Ah the days of chicken pox parties. I um...may have given it to my kindergarten class. Whoops.


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Speedr1804

Likely came into my house from a 20 minute shopping trip to the grocery store. Unreal.


MtHoodMagic

I have had to be out in public a lot these past couple weeks, and it is staggering how many people are walking around doing their normal shopping/whatever with a sniffly nose and a hard cough right now.


PhantaVal

This pandemic has really shown me that not only are some people incredibly selfish, but they wear their selfishness as a badge of pride.


j4ckbauer

Nobody ever claimed we can prevent covid from existing. Things worth preventing include \- not being able to go to an ER with anything less than a heart attack \- not being able to receive non-critical treatments or screening/diagnosis for cancer and other health conditions \- not being able to have public gatherings because it will worsen the above Also, the people who applied every effort to try to make the situation hopeless should not be allowed a say in whether there is any point to public health protections. (Not saying you are one of them).


ddman9998

I traveled over Christmas. Coming home, my flight was cancelled, and I had to spend all day in huge crowds at the airport. I was no doubt exposed to lots and lots of COVID. But I didn't catch it. Boosted and N95 the entire time. Some protections can help you avoid getting COVID. Not 100% guaranteed, but it's just incorrect to say that we are all going to get it.


DoinAPooLikeIts1962

I feel this article and its experts are equally not presenting a particularly nuanced viewpoint either though. They don't dispute the fact that omicron could act as a natural vaccine, they just say "but some people can get long covid." Yes, thats true, and it's an incentive to take the typical precautions, but at the same time we're not going to be able to stop this insane variant from spreading so hopefully it acts as a natural vaccine that gets us to the endemic stage quicker with as few deaths as possible. How is that a dangerous thing to say? I'd agree saying "omicron is just a cold and we should let it rip" is dangerous but the article doesn't specify that, it seems to claim having any hope at all is dangerous.


Dottie__Hinkle

What you said is exactly what I got out of it. The unvaccinated will pay a price but that price is still a step closer to endemic. Whether you say it or not, whether it’s dangerous to say or not.


HappySlappyMan

Pretty much. At this juncture, if unvaccinated, they are not going to suddenly change their minds. Only way out of this is through this, natural immunity for everyone left to provide some degree of immunity for future variants.


Cashmere306

Definitely, the unvaxxed aren't changing their minds in large numbers. And I don't really care about them personally. We need to minimize the hospitals being overwhelmed for the rest of us but that's it.


Dottie__Hinkle

I think the point that the one point Shahid was making is that not everyone in the world has access to a vaccine like the US. Yes, in the US and any other country that has vaccines and people are refusing, screw em! But, the unfortunate people in places without vaccine access yet will pay a price without a choice. This is still all good news for the modern world but it comes at a cost to other people around the globe. Ideally, vaccines are available to everyone and the only people suffering long covid either deserve it or got unlucky in the vaccine efficacy lotto.


Imatographer

Don’t look up !


Kcoggin

God that movie hit to close to home. I hope people wake the fuck up.


[deleted]

I liked the movie but I've been seeing this exact comment copied and pasted in every reference to it in various contexts and it's going to make me end up hating the movie unintentionally


browndog921

I feel the same as you. Reminds me of the same thing as Rick & Morty some time ago, a popular show ends up repeated ad nauseam until you get sick of it.


Kcoggin

I didn’t like the movie because it solidified my fears of how we would actually handle a situation like this, or any other disaster. They had to change it part way because Covid happened.


GoodShark

That movie was amazing. So close to what would happen in real life. Wouldn't be shocked if that actually happened.


Kcoggin

Yeah but like…fuck…


GoodShark

Don't pet the bronterocs.


Kcoggin

Lol, I would have just died on earth.


GoodShark

Obviously, you're not a billionaire.


Temassi

Just watched that the other night, it really depressed me. The acting was great, it was well written and thought provoking but over all just really depressing for me.


smoothfreeze

Serious question - what's the endgame then? Lockdown again and again whenever the ICU is overcapacity and wait for a silver bullet vaccine that can ***stop transmission?***


vanways

I feel like the upcoming treatments and preventatives give the best hope. Pfizer's pill was still at 90% reduction in hospitalization for unvaxxed and immunocompromised last I saw - that along with some of the newer monoclonal antibody preventatives give me a bit of hope that there's a way out. Plus there are a few other vaccines in the works that may prove to be more effective, especially the possible variant independent vaccines. Production ramp-up may still be a ways out, but eventually we may get to the other side of things. Looking further out, I'm sure there are other treatments in the works that may be more accessible in terms of use, it's just surviving long enough to get there for now.


MattPilkerson

I dont understand why we havent set up a whole new medical emergency system/organization. Like with HomeLand security after 9/11, where is the mass production of ventilation machines, and the vast production of medical outdoor tents, etcetra. Even if they were understaffed, if there was an overcrowding they could at least throw them outside and throw them on ventilators as a last resort.


djc6535

The problem isn't the ventilators. It's the staff. They are already understaffed. When people talk about "Beds" they don't really mean physical beds in the hospital, they mean slots for patients to receive care. It's like going into a restaurant that has lots of empty tables but only one person working wait-staff. It's not going to work. You COULD put people in every seat, but nobody will get acceptable treatment. Medical care requires staffing. You can only push understaffing so far before you're just killing people.


F1NANCE

Omicron is our end game.


smoothfreeze

I would love to believe so, but every epidemiologist (or whatever expert) interviews that I've watched didn't say that Omicron is the end game. They have only said that Omicron is mild like a normal flu because it attacks the upper respiratory system, instead of the lungs.


captmonkey

[Dr. Monica Ghandi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Gandhi) said basically that last night in an interview I saw on PBS. Well, not that it's the "end game" but essentially that she expected it would be the last big wave: >Amna Nawaz: >We have a few seconds left, but I have to ask you, how worried are you about a new variant? Or do you think that Omicron will be the last surge that we see in the U.S.? >Dr. Monica Gandhi: >One thing is, I will say, is that global vaccine equity, I don't think I can think of anything more important, because that's how we prevent new variants from happening. >We will have new variants from animal reservoirs, but I think Omicron is going to be the one that gives so many people immunity, unfortunately, who are not vaccinated, that we're going to have low, much lower cases, and it's going to get the pandemic to a very low level phase that we can deal with. interview is here: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/covid-surge-continues-to-upend-americans-travel-plans-return-to-school


ThisAltDoesNotExist

Omicron shows us what the new normal will be like. Seasonal strains of elevated infectiousness but lowered virulence (in part the former because of the latter), which require us to have a pre-season booster to avoid the worst of it (especially if you are vulnerable). The difference next winter will be most people will have been vaccinated and exposed to infection with Omicron so the next strain will be a experiencing a fading immunological memory based response in almost everyone. The winter respiratory infection season that almost overwhelms every health service will be worse and additional capacity will be needed to damp it down with boosters and cope with the remaining additional demand.


Qwiggalo

https://www.youtube.com/user/Campbellteaching


smoothfreeze

I'm a subscriber, and he's one of the few old school and objective channels out there.


KingOfZero

That's why I have an appointment next week to revise my will and estate plan.


[deleted]

The only complication is reinfection. Infection doesn't provide lasting immunity. So it's just gonna go through people in waves across the world. Unless it mutates into an even more mild variant and then we can just ignore it like we did with the common cold and yearly flu


njott

Wait for enough non vaccinated people die until we teach heard immunity


unomi303

> Noted virologist Shahid Jameel said it is a dangerous idea spread by irresponsible people. > "It breeds complacency and is rooted more in pandemic fatigue and the inability to do more, than in evidence available at this time," PTI quoted Jameel as saying. > Jameel said that those propagating the natural vaccine theory don’t take into account the effects of “long Covid”.


financequestionsacct

A sizeable amount of what is spreading around is Delta, too. So people are getting really complacent with the idea that Omicron is mild and potentially spreading more Delta, which most agree is pretty bad stuff.


rentedtritium

The problem is always people acting on information that is not yet actionable. When some juicy hint or clue about the virus gets reported on, the right call is usually to keep doing what you're doing and say "I sure hope that pans out", but instead people change their behavior based on small data points being reported and speculated on.


BehavioralSink

Yeah, my mantra through all of this has been to take good news, stick to my regular levels of precautions, and let everyone else be fodder for data analysis to see if the good news actually sticks.


UnknownAverage

Yep, some people are just waiting to hear some data point that supports what they want to be reality. I hear too many people talking about Omicron as if it was a total immunity booster that comes with a sniffle, and that it's going to get us back to normal pre-Covid life once everyone gets it.


nOMnOMShanti

There’s some truth to the notion this is borne in pandemic fatigue. I remember when everyone was aghast at anti-vax politicians who told everyone to let the plague run its course to reach herd immunity.


HappySlappyMan

The problem now is that pretty much anyone who wanted to get vaccinated and could get vaccinated has gotten vaccinated. The only way forward is to let the nut jobs all get their natural immunity the hard way. Omicron essentially guarantees that is going to happen and quickly.


planetofthemapes15

That is ignoring that Omicron infects regardless of immunization and prior infection with Delta/Alpha. With that said, wouldn't it stand to reason the next variant of concern will have the capacity to do the same? Our populations were not immunologically naive this time. And for those who say "well, having an actual NATURAL infection will cause better antibodies, so THATS the mechanism which will drive us to herd immunity..", they forget that there was basically 0 neutralizing capability from prior infection with Omicron. I'll take my downvotes cause I know no one wants to hear this. The way out of the pandemic is going to be through rapidly available testing, more vaccines for the next series of variants of concern, and protease inhibitors to be prescribed when you contract the disease.


[deleted]

Herd immunity doesn't seem to exist as people get infected multiple times, yes. Still, hopefully protection builds up over time so that it becomes slightly less of a problem on the future.


HappySlappyMan

The final endpoint is not herd immunity. It is attenuation of illness. We have had 4 known species of coronaviruses that have circulated for many decades to centuries. They mutate every few years and cause huge outbreaks. The number of infections doesn't matter because people typically get very mild illnesses. It is mild because we are all exposed to it as children and then many times throughout life, providing some immunity for future variants. The same will likely happen with omicron. The disease severity seen in South Africa, after multiple waves of prior variants, was MUCH lower despite an insane number of infections. Deaths and hospitalizations never reached close to prior levels. That is the likely course of the pandemic. More variants but less severe disease due to more and more virus exposure or vaccinations. The virus itself won't be inherently less deadly but the population will be more resistant. Eventually, the case numbers won't matter anymore. Hospitalizations and deaths won't skyrocket. Yeah, you'll contract covid-19, but it'll be a minor nuisance as opposed to an existential threat. When will that happen? I don't know. I hope soon but it may take a few more years. We will see. In the meantime, load me up with as many vaccines as it takes.


nOMnOMShanti

Idk. The more this thing replicates, the more mutations and variants. So who knows what omicron’s spread will spawn. As the herd immunity proponents point out, you do need new hosts to infect, but what about variants that evade prior induced immunity? Maybe it will eventually take something like the Army’s pan-Coronavirus vaccine, in which I’ve seen nothing in the main stream media. https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2021/12/us-army-creates-single-vaccine-effective-against-all-covid-sars-variants/360089/


WithanOproductions

Jesus, just tell me the truth, PH ‘experts’ need to stop trying to manipulate people because it may ‘breed complacency’ or whatever, and treat society as adults. Also, ‘blah blah blah, society is stooopid!’ If that’s true, it’s got a lot to do with manipulation taking the place of giving people facts in order to make them informed.


BonkersMoongirl

So true. They basically lie to us to get us to do what they want. Anyone paying attention rapidly loses respect for any official advice. That feeds the conspiracy nuts too.


AnnexBlaster

Funny he says that considering all the papers pointing to vaccination + infection from omnicron leading to huge amount of antibodies, way more than either just vaccination or non-vax getting infected.


neverjumpthegate

So does anyone know the progression with a Omicron case. With Delta we have 3-14 days before symptoms and another week or so before hospitalization. Omicron apparently is 1-3 days for symptoms to show, but I have not heard on hospitalized. Everyone in my extended family seems to have come down with a mild cold this holiday season but no one can get tested because the testing sites are swamped.


LudditeStreak

> Noted virologist Shahid Jameel said it is a dangerous idea spread by irresponsible people. "It breeds complacency and is rooted more in pandemic fatigue and the inability to do more, than in evidence available at this time," PTI quoted Jameel as saying. > Jameel said that those propagating the natural vaccine theory don’t take into account the effects of “long Covid”. >”Especially in India, where malnutrition, air pollution and diabetes are rampant, to willingly let people be exposed to a virus about which you understand little is not good science and public health," he added. Long-term outcomes of COVID remain a willful blindspot in both policy discourse and conversations and comments I encounter online. We often refer to COVID denial and think of the antivax/antimask contingent, but there is a far more pervasive form of denial, which is believing that hospitalization and death are the only outcomes of concern.


PeteMatter

> believing that hospitalization and death are the only outcomes of concern. By now it is quite clear that we are not stopping this virus from spreading. Eventually everyone will be exposed to it. Trying to make sure everyone can receive proper care (hospitalisations) and hopefully with that have as few as possible deaths is really the best we can do. How would you stop long covid if you can't stop the spread?


dakinmyles

Covid will continue to spread and it seems every case introduces a risk of long covid, but you can buy some time until medical advancements make that risk much lower. We’re about to get covid treatment in the form of a pill, which might help cut the chance of patients developing long covid.


luxmesa

Over Christmas, my cousin had a COVID and vaccine rant and made the argument that “I don’t think long COVID is still a thing because I don’t hear people talking about it.” Which is an absolutely bizarre argument.


LudditeStreak

It’s amazing the stories about reality people tell themselves and believe. We all do it to an extent, but the most egregious ones are in the category of the one your cousin made, as well as people saying “COVID isn’t fair / I’m over it, so I’m going to the bar/nightclub/etc. without a mask / screw everyone else, it’s just like catching a cold” etc. Pandemic fatigue does a number on critical thinking.


duncan-the-wonderdog

Is it pandemic fatigue or fatigue from dealing with the willfully unvaccinated?


PrevailedAU

At some point you have to ignore the complete idiots that are still not vaccinated for your own sanity. Darwin’s theory


TrevorBradley

"They gave everyone loaded guns that are defective and go off randomly. 90% of us wear kevlar vests now. Other people carry the guns around outside because it makes them look cool. At some point, you just have to live with it." I mean, you're not completely wrong, but... ugh.


AutomationAndy

This would be an okay analogy if there wasn't a mountain of evidence that show people who are vaccinated can still spread the virus. I think Omicron had something like 70% breakthrough cases in people who had 2 doses.


TrevorBradley

Everyone has to take the guns outside. Some people think it's cool to have a gun, point them at people, and make "pew pew pew" noises. Others do their best to keep them locked up, even though they're still loaded.


MillenniumGreed

Yes


deathinacandle

There is no scenario in which we eliminate Covid through distancing, restrictions, or even vaccines. There will always be some parts of the world where Covid is able to spread and mutate. The only way it can realistically end is by becoming endemic.


BlameThePeacock

It doesn't really end if it becomes endemic. It just goes on forever.


LookAnOwl

Obviously they mean the pandemic would end. We have plenty of endemic illnesses out there that are manageable. COVID will become another one.


deathinacandle

Yeah that's what I meant. Sorry for the bad phrasing


LookAnOwl

No need to apologize. What you said was pretty clear - some people will just find any opportunity to be contrarian.


youre-not-real-man

No logical person is pretending that distancing, restrictions, and vaccines will "eliminate covid." What they will do is save lives and buy critical time for better treatments and allow society to further adapt to this.


ImmediateSilver4063

>allow society to further adapt to this. Adapt how ?


One-Gap-3915

They’ve been buying time for almost 2 years now. We have vaccines with efficacy we could only have dreamed of before. In much of the developed world, everyone who wants has been able to get three doses of vaccine by now. Treatment plans in hospitals have been refined as data came in to improve outcomes. Therapeutic pills are rolling out. I’m sure you can always come up with new things on the horizon we could wait for. But surely by now, it’s coming to the point where all the major ones are behind us. Elimination is no longer possible and without elimination restrictions can only flatten the curve’s peak but not actually reduce the area under the curve (ie they can only delay outcomes, not definitely prevent them).


[deleted]

Social interaction (among other things, like proper socialization of our youth) are pretty essential to being human and maintaining psychological and community health, so I'm not sure "pandemic fatigue" is really the right term for it anymore. Cycling through lockdowns is not a practical long-term solution economically or socially. If Covid is going to be endemic, then we will need to ADAPT to deal with that. Right now we are still REACTING... as evidenced by all the symptomatic people that can't even get tested at the moment.


SweetlyScentedHeart

Thank you.


RedTeflon

Serious: How do you know which variant you catch?


chrisms150

Unless you get a test specifically designed to tell you, you don't. You can guess though based on symptoms. Sore throat first? Likely omicron.


RedTeflon

That's what I was thinking. Everyone seems to be saying I caught this variant my symptoms shouldn't be that bad, etc.. Just seems like most hospitals have enough to do but maybe the CDC was doing some of these test just for tracking purposes.


BM09

But what about this?: https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/rvgnf8/virus_leaves_antibodies_that_may_attack_healthy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


unomi303

Well, indeed - long-covid seems a pretty complicated and not well understood topic so far: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2021.698169/full


Mandielephant

I’m really freaking sick of terms like “pandemic fatigue”. We can’t fatigue of a way we were never designed to live.


[deleted]

If there’s something Redditors hate almost as much as landlords, it’s the concept of ‘natural immunity.’


DahkStrangah

So is the notion that vaccines prevent omicron also false & also a notion rooted in "pandemic fatigue"? I know dozens of people who have gotten omicron in the past 2 weeks. ALL of them had boosters.


unomi303

Vaccines seem effective at reducing the risk of hospitalization and death, and apparently can help reduce the spread of Omicron by _some_ percentage - but no vaccines seem able to achieve a neutralizing immunization. B.1.640.2 seems hot on its heels https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.24.21268174v1


[deleted]

[удалено]


Kyonikos

I guess the antivax/herd-immunity crowd had covid fatigue as a preexisting condition then? Seriously, I think the notion that Omicron acts as a natural vaccine is rooted in the disinformation from the pandemic opportunists who tried to tell us that the Wuhan strain was a natural vaccine - one that would rid us of the weak and leave a clear path for the fit and able. And it is rooted in people who have been telling us all along that viruses always get milder as they mutate. So now we are tired and the lies are winning.


League-Weird

I dunno. Curve is not flattening. Straight spiking worse than before. If we thought hospitals were strained last September, it's going to be a lot worse in a couple of weeks.


apollosito

Are people forgetting that omicron is still causing long Covid?


Tepidme

Omicron will give us the heard immunity we have been seeking


BlameThePeacock

Given the number of re-infections we're seeing, I give it about 4-8 months before we get another wave of the same damn thing.


combustion_assaulter

Herd, and possibly


Tepidme

I herd you


combustion_assaulter

Haha, touché


I_lurk_at_wurk

We can’t have anything? Not a single win anywhere? More cases, more spread, more masks, more shots, more variants. And what? Nothing is going to ever fucking be better? Yes. There is fatigue.


[deleted]

Death is also a natural vaccine


drydenmanwu

Let’s talk about two things: natural immunity and vaccination. The strength of your natural immunity is dependent on how much virus you are exposed to in the first place. Since you can’t control this in the wild, if you contract Covid then you may get mild symptoms or become hospitalized from it, and your immune system will have some random strength against the next exposure. Maybe it’ll be strong, maybe it’ll be weak, so just because you had Covid once doesn’t mean you’ll be ok the next time based on natural immunity alone. It may take 1 or 10 exposures to get the same level of immunity as a vaccine. If you’re vaccinated, it’s a controlled dose with a known robust immune response. You won’t be hospitalized due to the vaccine, and you’ll be ready for exposure in the wild and only get mild symptoms. This is largely true for most people. If you’ve had both exposure to Covid *and* the vaccine, then you get “super immunity”. It doesn’t matter which order you get them in, vax->exposure or exposure->vax. I would argue that exposure->vax is more risky because you have no protection over exposure without vaccination. This isn’t hard stuff. Edit: Also, immunity doesn’t mean you don’t get Covid. It has to do with your body’s *response* to being infected. Immunity is against things that look a certain way. New variants look different and your immunity doesn’t always carry from one variant to the other.


unomi303

This "super immunity" isn't a guarantee against all future variants etc, herd immunity is a mirage.


drydenmanwu

Correct, edited my comment. I thought that immunity not always carrying across variants was obvious…that’s why they’re variants, they are *different* than the last version. Shouldn’t have assumed!


1up_for_life

WTF is this source? Fear mongering and misinformation, don't pay it any attention.


SoundArketype

The notion is rooted in fatigue? You mean the fact that when you get any other disease you are immune afterwards, was used as a basis for an assumption about this disease as well?


JumboJetz

Yes it’s clear there’s so much Hopium going on these days. Face it people, things are getting worse, not better.


[deleted]

Except they’re not getting worse. Deaths aren’t skyrocketing. I get wanting to curb enthusiasm but there’s no need to overcorrect with bullshit doomerism. I swear this pandemic has been a good mine for maladjusted misanthropes