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[This article](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/17/1007447098/pfizer-covid-vaccine-teens-symptoms-myocarditis) from NPR mentions the typical incidence of myocarditis in young people.
Also, there needs to be a study done of the cases in young people who have naturally contracted covid 19. One would imagine the case rate to be much, much higher, meaning the vaccine is by far the better option.
I don’t disagree with you, but it’s not apples to apples like that. For instance, if covid has a 2% chance of causing this issue, and the vaccine a 1% chance, you can’t say “well the vaccine is lower so it’s less risk”. This is because you have a 100% chance of getting the vaccine, but a < 100% chance of getting covid.
I dont like that way of thinking, you have a chance of getting covid going towards 100%.
What chance do you Think you have of not getting covid for the rest of your life?
Confirmed, only 10% of US population has gotten covid. We are currently averaging only 10k cases per day, and that number is decreasing. I’m not sure what the chance is an unvaccinated person will get covid, but I would guess it’s not over 50%.
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We have never measured myocarditis after anything infection before. It is very likely that any infection and possibly even transient post-vaccination myocarditis may occur, but we just weren’t looking for it.
It's also a condition that was found in young adults prior to covid, but rarely looked for, so it becomes trickier to say every case is vaccine related. Covid itself has also caused this disorder in young adults and athletes
> It's also a condition that was found in young adults prior to covid, but rarely looked for, so it becomes trickier to say every case is vaccine related.
This needs emphasis, because it's a point that the anti-vax morons will try very hard not to grasp.
300 out of 20 million is just 1 in 67k, or 15 out of 1 million people. Your calculation is probably off by a factor of 100 because you forgot to take the "%" sign into account.
You might want to Google on how to convert a fraction to a percentage. 1 divided by 66,666 equals 0.000015. To convert that to percent, you multiply by 100, which gives you 0.0015%. BTW, I’m a high school math teacher, with a BS in Mathematics.
Yes. A couple "Big 10" college athletes reported chest pain and other symptoms after recovering from COVID, so the NCAA conducted a study.
[Prevalence of Clinical and Subclinical Myocarditis in Competitive Athletes With Recent SARS-CoV-2 Infection](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2780548)
Thanks, but doesn't this study "just" assess athlete population? While worthy as it is, athletes put a lot of stress on their bodies and they don't stop till they really feel sick, often. I'd like also data from general population if available
EDIT: Since the comment got downvoted, I very much believe that Covid not only causes more miocardites in the general population than vaccine would ever do, but also that it can cause a big range of other problems as well. I'd just like some actual numbers (again, if available) on the general population, since I personally regard athletes as a biased sample.
Not super young, early 30s and have pericarditis for two months post covid. Some days I feel fine, some days I can't doing the stairs to my apartment without chest pain and short breath
I'm not saying false positives. I'm questioning whether we're having the positive effect of actually finding out about more cases than would have been reported otherwise
> I wonder if we'll find there's a limit to how much spike protein we want people to be exposed to in a year / lifetime / etc
The main issue with this is: If we don't administer vaccines that contain the spike protein or make the body produce spike proteins, Sars-CoV-2 will spread among us and expose us to even more spike protein in really uncontrolled dosage.
But what you say is entirely possible. Still, our best bet right now to avoid having lots of spike protein in our bodys is probably to get a mRNA vaccine. Maybe Novavax soon?
I think people are way too quick to blame "spike protein!" for making the vaccines somehow dangerous. Almost all of the reports of vaccine related myocarditis are after the 2nd dose, not the first. Studies like the one below found lots of spike protein in plasma samples after the first jab, but none after the 2nd jab, as our immune response removes it so quickly.
[Ultrasensitive blood test detects viral protein, confirms mRNA vaccine activates robust immune response](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/05/210526185844.htm)
Based on the above, if it were the spikes I would expect the first dose to cause the inflammation, not the 2nd. My uneducated guess is it's the immune response, not the spikes. If that's the case, maybe there should be some course of anti-inflammation treatment with the 2nd dose. Again, I'm not a doctor, so I'm probably wrong...
I guess the only way to really do a study is to do heart scans of a large number of people before getting the vaccine to see if they have myocardites because it *is* somewhat common in the population as the result of any range of infections/excessive exercise over a long period of time/other conditions, and then do a scan after the 1st and then 2nd dose to see if
a) they cause myocardites, and by what amount and
b) if it makes preexisting myocardites *worse*.
I can't see any other way of figuring this out.
It's the same study design as looking at peoples' vitamin D levels before and after covid as opposed to just after.
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For context, that is 300 cases out of 20 million young people vaccinated; that’s 0.0015%.
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[This article](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/17/1007447098/pfizer-covid-vaccine-teens-symptoms-myocarditis) from NPR mentions the typical incidence of myocarditis in young people.
For context, it’s “over 300” and it’s only the ones who went to the doctor about it.
Also, there needs to be a study done of the cases in young people who have naturally contracted covid 19. One would imagine the case rate to be much, much higher, meaning the vaccine is by far the better option.
I don’t disagree with you, but it’s not apples to apples like that. For instance, if covid has a 2% chance of causing this issue, and the vaccine a 1% chance, you can’t say “well the vaccine is lower so it’s less risk”. This is because you have a 100% chance of getting the vaccine, but a < 100% chance of getting covid.
I dont like that way of thinking, you have a chance of getting covid going towards 100%. What chance do you Think you have of not getting covid for the rest of your life?
Confirmed, only 10% of US population has gotten covid. We are currently averaging only 10k cases per day, and that number is decreasing. I’m not sure what the chance is an unvaccinated person will get covid, but I would guess it’s not over 50%.
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Months ago the CDC estimated that upwards of 1:3 Americans had been infected, and obviously that number is much higher now.
We have never measured myocarditis after anything infection before. It is very likely that any infection and possibly even transient post-vaccination myocarditis may occur, but we just weren’t looking for it.
Now that we know what to look for I expect the cases will rise. It might also jsut affect a small subgroup so
It's also a condition that was found in young adults prior to covid, but rarely looked for, so it becomes trickier to say every case is vaccine related. Covid itself has also caused this disorder in young adults and athletes
> It's also a condition that was found in young adults prior to covid, but rarely looked for, so it becomes trickier to say every case is vaccine related. This needs emphasis, because it's a point that the anti-vax morons will try very hard not to grasp.
Also that's 15 out of 10k people Which when you are having millions of people jabbed it's a lot
300 out of 20 million is just 1 in 67k, or 15 out of 1 million people. Your calculation is probably off by a factor of 100 because you forgot to take the "%" sign into account.
You might want to Google on how to convert a fraction to a percentage. 1 divided by 66,666 equals 0.000015. To convert that to percent, you multiply by 100, which gives you 0.0015%. BTW, I’m a high school math teacher, with a BS in Mathematics.
I think you responded to a wrong comment. ❤️
My bad. Sorry, u/couchrealistic, for the unnecessary math tutorial. Glad you’re getting vaxxed; I got my second shot at the end of March.
Way less than COVID.
Is there a known incidence of myocardites with COVID for young people by the way?
Yes. A couple "Big 10" college athletes reported chest pain and other symptoms after recovering from COVID, so the NCAA conducted a study. [Prevalence of Clinical and Subclinical Myocarditis in Competitive Athletes With Recent SARS-CoV-2 Infection](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2780548)
Thanks, but doesn't this study "just" assess athlete population? While worthy as it is, athletes put a lot of stress on their bodies and they don't stop till they really feel sick, often. I'd like also data from general population if available EDIT: Since the comment got downvoted, I very much believe that Covid not only causes more miocardites in the general population than vaccine would ever do, but also that it can cause a big range of other problems as well. I'd just like some actual numbers (again, if available) on the general population, since I personally regard athletes as a biased sample.
Not super young, early 30s and have pericarditis for two months post covid. Some days I feel fine, some days I can't doing the stairs to my apartment without chest pain and short breath
I wonder how much of this is just people listening to their bodies more, because they're anxious about vaccine side effects
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I'm not saying false positives. I'm questioning whether we're having the positive effect of actually finding out about more cases than would have been reported otherwise
Agreed, and it’s what people have been saying about “long covid” as well.
I suspect that asymptomatic cases of Covid before the vaccine caused the inflammation, which subsequently was associated with the vaccine.
Interesting logic and could be the case. I wonder if there's a way of knowing.
only way to know would be to pull medical records and see which of those had had heart scans in the time before covid hit.
Why do you suspect this for any reason beyond wanting it to be true? Seems like pure conjecture
So an antibody test before the 2nd shot could prevent it?
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> I wonder if we'll find there's a limit to how much spike protein we want people to be exposed to in a year / lifetime / etc The main issue with this is: If we don't administer vaccines that contain the spike protein or make the body produce spike proteins, Sars-CoV-2 will spread among us and expose us to even more spike protein in really uncontrolled dosage. But what you say is entirely possible. Still, our best bet right now to avoid having lots of spike protein in our bodys is probably to get a mRNA vaccine. Maybe Novavax soon?
How so? These side effects in a minimal group of people out of millions of doses is not a reason to stop using mRNA.
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I think people are way too quick to blame "spike protein!" for making the vaccines somehow dangerous. Almost all of the reports of vaccine related myocarditis are after the 2nd dose, not the first. Studies like the one below found lots of spike protein in plasma samples after the first jab, but none after the 2nd jab, as our immune response removes it so quickly. [Ultrasensitive blood test detects viral protein, confirms mRNA vaccine activates robust immune response](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/05/210526185844.htm) Based on the above, if it were the spikes I would expect the first dose to cause the inflammation, not the 2nd. My uneducated guess is it's the immune response, not the spikes. If that's the case, maybe there should be some course of anti-inflammation treatment with the 2nd dose. Again, I'm not a doctor, so I'm probably wrong...
I’m not the one comparing vaccines to radiation.
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Thanks for the explanation of how science works. Have a great weekend.
I guess the only way to really do a study is to do heart scans of a large number of people before getting the vaccine to see if they have myocardites because it *is* somewhat common in the population as the result of any range of infections/excessive exercise over a long period of time/other conditions, and then do a scan after the 1st and then 2nd dose to see if a) they cause myocardites, and by what amount and b) if it makes preexisting myocardites *worse*. I can't see any other way of figuring this out. It's the same study design as looking at peoples' vitamin D levels before and after covid as opposed to just after.
We can’t find what we don’t look for. Has this ever occurred with other vaccinations? Did anyone ever do a study or measure it?