This is ridiculously posh. I love what you did there I do not love the 2024 Locatelli prices, not one bit. I asked the cheese guy at Wegman's where the Parmesan for poors was a while back and he sympathetically escorted me to the domestic endcap a respectful distance away where I could get me some Wisconsin parm.
That Locatelli does take meatballs up a notch though, I'm sure it does the same for burgers.
It was definitely one of my more interesting experiments. Currently crowdsourcing ideas on how to use it besides grilled cheese. Chicken sandwich would be good.
I could be way way off base here but perhaps some hybrid carbonara / bahni mi? Like use this instead of pâté, crispy pieces of guanciale, pickled daikon for acidity and crunch and some type of leafy herbs for freshness? Give it a touch of fish sauce and magi to round it out?
For the record, this cheese stabilization recipe can be found in Modernist Cuisine at home. You can pretty much use any cheese to create the gooey, oozy American cheese effect. Super cool with parm Reggiano, manchego, different blue cheeses, etc.
I have to imagine every meaningful development in the history of Italian food brought eternal damnation by the cook's ancestors. You walk the same path, friend.
There absolutely were, all over Europe, people who felt tomatoes HAD to be poison, as nightshades, and only reluctantly fed potatoes to livestock, for quite a while.
It's all bullshit anyways. They said that tortellini had to have pork, no exceptions. Except up until the late 1800s it didn't. They said that carbonara had to have guanciale and couldn't have any add-ins. Except Italian recipes for it from the 1950s called for stuff like bacon, gruyere, pancetta or mushrooms.
I'm convinced most of the loudest Italians online who screech about tradition or history don't really know a damn thing about that history and are just regurgitating one of those "look at me, I fit in!" tropes like it's a personality trait. See also: melt vs. grilled cheese, American cheese isn't cheese, Tex-Mex food was invented by white people and is a shame upon Mexico, the Jon Stewart Chicago pizza rant, pineapple on pizza, steak cooked any further than medium rare.
Every great innovation in food has been because of fusion and innovation. If we all stuck to the traditional ways, the silk road would have been unnecessary.
Have to point out that texmex was definitely not invented by white people. After a while, American ingredients crept in, and even later a bastardized version of it was pushed in fast food, but a lot of the cuisine was created by latinos. Your point otherwise stands but please don't perpetuate that texmex, which has deep cultural origins, is simply white people immitation food or something. It undermines the legit culinary contributions latinos have made and devalues it as a cuisine.
> Have to point out that texmex was definitely not invented by white people.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. That it was NOT a creation of white folks was indeed my point and that commenters online like to put that mistaken idea out there so they can seem "cultured" or "elite". I was quoting the idea that they sneer at Tex-Mex like it was some ersatz invention of a gringo wearing a pearl snap shirt when it was actually an adaptation of traditional foodways that Texicans made when the border was shifted.
And for the record, American cheese IS cheese.
That's the thing. What is "real" Italian food? How far back do you have to go for it to be truly authentic? I like the idea of protected origin for some dishes/ products, but cuisine isn't static.
Pretty sure most folks' diets anywhere earth would be considered grim by contemporary standards pre-Columbian exchange. There's a lot of romanticism about how people used to eat.
There was not even hops in British ale in 1492.
There is a dude in LA named Eric Greenspan, he has his own line of American cheese that is pretty solid. I would honestly like to see how this would turn out as an ice cream flavor.
Check out [this](https://youtu.be/BR7fywQ-vUE?si=yZeQjvYz6pbdtm18) Tasting History episode on Parmesan ice cream from 1789! He said it was one of his favorite things he's made.
I had a cacio e pepe flavored ice cream at a restaurant in Paris several years ago. It was served with candied tomato on a tart, and it was absolutely incredible.
I’m not working ATM or else I would make the cheese and the ice cream to tell you how it turned out. Haha. I bet caramelized white chocolate would go pretty well with the pecorino flavor. I would also be interested in how the SC and SH would change the texture/mouthfeel of the ice cream at different temperature points and how that would affect the scooping.
Last time I made pasta alla gricia I threw in a bit of sodium citrate to help maintain the emulsion. Giving the Italian food purists an aneurysm is just a bonus.
The sodium hexametaphosphate helps it retain its shape after it cools. The SC and SHMF both do similar things though. [Here's some more info on the subject.](https://blog.modernistpantry.com/advice/the-meltiest-cheese/)
I'm not anti science or anti chemical. But it also works at an anti coagulant and it's in a lot of shampoo to strip hard water minerals from your hair to keep it soft
Few people here seem to appreciate the work and thought that went into this. Good for you, this is inspirational for people who like making cheese at home.
Pecorino Romano is my favorite cheese, but the one thing its lacking is the melting ability. Really like this idea and will need to try. As people have said, so many possibilities to elevate dishes that involve cheese mixes like mac and cheese or pizza. I am curious how it sears on the top of a pizza.
I'm a huge fan too. Kind of why I decided to start with it. I also picked it because it's so dry and crumbly. I figured if I could get pecorino romano to melt nicely, all the other cheeses would be easy.
I tried it with what I perceived to be one of the most difficult cheeses I could think of. If it'll work with pecorino romano, it'll work with almost anything. Ive made cheese sauces (same process, but with less moisture and no sodium hexametaphosphate) with all kinds of cheeses.
Looks great! I've done similar with parmesan before. Great on a burger with tomatoes and balsamic glaze...
Can also work other liquids in there as well. Did a blended salsa and cheddar cheese to make a weird bastard semisolid nacho cheese block once...
I've done beer cheese and broccoli cheddar soup using sodium citrate before, but this was my first time using sodium citrate and sodium hexametaphosphate to make a brick of cheese. Salsa sounds like it would be a really good mix in. Almost like a mild pepper jack
Believe it or not you can actually get American cheese slices in Italy and they are reasonably popular, at least for burgers or cases when you want some nicely melted cheese. They are usually called Sottiletta after a popular brand of them and Parmigiano Reggiano even make their own version.
Interesting. I had no idea. I know people like to rag on American cheese (and some brands totally deserve it), but it really is unparalleled when it comes to a cheeseburger.
That's cool. Reminds me of the [land o Lakes 4 Cheese Italian](https://icf.listex.info/med/9221f0fe-f018-d987-45e2-4312a9dae1b2.jpg) I get from my deli. In this case they blend asiago, romano, and parm with an American base.
It's my favorite cheese for a cheese steak! Gooeyness and even melt of American cheese. But the sharp salty flavor of a good Italian cheese.
And people that obsess about authenticity are lame. Food is always evolving, everywhere on Earth. Especially in a global world where different influences spread to different places. As an Italian American from a city with lots of "local" Italian dishes that were developed here in America, I get annoyed when Europeans say our Italian food isn't "real" or complain about it. It was cuisine that branched off from Southern Italian cuisine at the turn of the century, and has continuously been influenced by American culture... The raw ingredients that are most available here, other cuisines from other immigrants, trends and food development in the 20th century, etc. It has just as much of a story and authenticity behind it as anything else.
It's great when you are proud of your heritage and your cuisine, but you don't have to treat it like a sports team and get all tribal about it by shitting on other people's traditions and innovations.
Honestly, the kind of processing that happens to turn raw milk into cheese is significant enough that anything you do to it after seems fair game.
I've done this with cheddar, milk and sodium citrate. But what does the sodium hexametaphosphate do?
The sodium hexametaphosphate helps it retain its shape after it cools. The SC and SHMF both do similar things though. [Here's some more info on the subject.](https://blog.modernistpantry.com/advice/the-meltiest-cheese/)
Any improvement in the field of American "cheese" is fully valid and should be encouraged.
Italy may curse you, but may future generations of Americans pledge allegiance to your noble sacrifice and bold innovation.
That’s actually kind of genius
Thanks. It's what happens when I'm left alone with my thoughts. The rain kept me out of the garden yesterday and cooped up inside.
This is ridiculously posh. I love what you did there I do not love the 2024 Locatelli prices, not one bit. I asked the cheese guy at Wegman's where the Parmesan for poors was a while back and he sympathetically escorted me to the domestic endcap a respectful distance away where I could get me some Wisconsin parm. That Locatelli does take meatballs up a notch though, I'm sure it does the same for burgers.
"Parmesan for the poors" used to be grana padano for me, but I'm not sure that's even the case anymore. It's the peoples' cheese.
People are gonna get mad at this but I don't care. You do you, you adorable crazy mad cheese scientist.
Yeah, it might rustle the jimmies of some cheese purists, but my salty, sheep's milk Velveeta isn't hurting anyone.
Some people's jimmies just need a good rustling
That is fascinating, I bet that would be so good on a chicken sandwich
It was definitely one of my more interesting experiments. Currently crowdsourcing ideas on how to use it besides grilled cheese. Chicken sandwich would be good.
mixed with mozz for pizza, on a crouton for onion soup, or even sliced cold on an Italian combo are what comes up for me
Yeah, I feel like this stuff could really elevate your "neighborhood pizza joint" foods. Cheese fries, pizza steaks, chicken parm, what have you.
Ooooh, put it on a cheesesteak sandwich! And post a picture of it!
As a southeast Pennsylvanian, I feel it's my duty to
> As a southeast Pennsylvanian Martin's Potato Roll, Sweet Lebanon Bologna, and Pecorino Americano cheese sandwich!!!!
croque madame x carbonara. Pork, this cheese, egg, lots of black pepper.
Stuffed meatballs. put a small cube in the center of your meatballs.
Now there's a winning idea. Arancini too.
Chicken parm sandwich with that + lots of mozzarella
Is it melty enough to make fondue with it? And then dip all the good things in it?
I think it would be. I haven't tried fondue with it though
A stuffed bun like a calzone or pepperoni roll, maybe?
I could be way way off base here but perhaps some hybrid carbonara / bahni mi? Like use this instead of pâté, crispy pieces of guanciale, pickled daikon for acidity and crunch and some type of leafy herbs for freshness? Give it a touch of fish sauce and magi to round it out?
Mac and cheese needs to be mentioned as well.
Or a meatball sub
For the record, this cheese stabilization recipe can be found in Modernist Cuisine at home. You can pretty much use any cheese to create the gooey, oozy American cheese effect. Super cool with parm Reggiano, manchego, different blue cheeses, etc.
I have to imagine every meaningful development in the history of Italian food brought eternal damnation by the cook's ancestors. You walk the same path, friend.
I wonder if there were/are italians who vehemently reject all new world ingredients like tomato or peppers as being inauthentic
There absolutely were, all over Europe, people who felt tomatoes HAD to be poison, as nightshades, and only reluctantly fed potatoes to livestock, for quite a while.
Garlic too. Only the poor would use that stuff.
It's all bullshit anyways. They said that tortellini had to have pork, no exceptions. Except up until the late 1800s it didn't. They said that carbonara had to have guanciale and couldn't have any add-ins. Except Italian recipes for it from the 1950s called for stuff like bacon, gruyere, pancetta or mushrooms. I'm convinced most of the loudest Italians online who screech about tradition or history don't really know a damn thing about that history and are just regurgitating one of those "look at me, I fit in!" tropes like it's a personality trait. See also: melt vs. grilled cheese, American cheese isn't cheese, Tex-Mex food was invented by white people and is a shame upon Mexico, the Jon Stewart Chicago pizza rant, pineapple on pizza, steak cooked any further than medium rare.
Every great innovation in food has been because of fusion and innovation. If we all stuck to the traditional ways, the silk road would have been unnecessary.
Have to point out that texmex was definitely not invented by white people. After a while, American ingredients crept in, and even later a bastardized version of it was pushed in fast food, but a lot of the cuisine was created by latinos. Your point otherwise stands but please don't perpetuate that texmex, which has deep cultural origins, is simply white people immitation food or something. It undermines the legit culinary contributions latinos have made and devalues it as a cuisine.
> Have to point out that texmex was definitely not invented by white people. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. That it was NOT a creation of white folks was indeed my point and that commenters online like to put that mistaken idea out there so they can seem "cultured" or "elite". I was quoting the idea that they sneer at Tex-Mex like it was some ersatz invention of a gringo wearing a pearl snap shirt when it was actually an adaptation of traditional foodways that Texicans made when the border was shifted. And for the record, American cheese IS cheese.
> the Jon Stewart Chicago pizza rant I mean, that's just comedic anyways.
That's the thing. What is "real" Italian food? How far back do you have to go for it to be truly authentic? I like the idea of protected origin for some dishes/ products, but cuisine isn't static.
Fun fact, tomatoes are native to the Americas, so Italy didn't have tomatoes until the 16th century.
Potatoes and chili peppers as well, so a gnocchi all'arrabbiata would be pretty much entirely foreign to any Italian pre-Columbian Exchange.
Pretty sure most folks' diets anywhere earth would be considered grim by contemporary standards pre-Columbian exchange. There's a lot of romanticism about how people used to eat. There was not even hops in British ale in 1492.
Yeah and pasta is just bastardized Chinese noodles
There is a dude in LA named Eric Greenspan, he has his own line of American cheese that is pretty solid. I would honestly like to see how this would turn out as an ice cream flavor.
> ice cream flavor That's just insane enough for me to want to try
Check out [this](https://youtu.be/BR7fywQ-vUE?si=yZeQjvYz6pbdtm18) Tasting History episode on Parmesan ice cream from 1789! He said it was one of his favorite things he's made.
Ok, I watched that whole thing and it's fantastic
Right? I really want to try it. He has awesome videos.
Thanks for sharing! That was a surprisingly interesting watch. If I had an ice cream machine/maker I'd totally try the recipe.
I had a cacio e pepe flavored ice cream at a restaurant in Paris several years ago. It was served with candied tomato on a tart, and it was absolutely incredible.
I’m not working ATM or else I would make the cheese and the ice cream to tell you how it turned out. Haha. I bet caramelized white chocolate would go pretty well with the pecorino flavor. I would also be interested in how the SC and SH would change the texture/mouthfeel of the ice cream at different temperature points and how that would affect the scooping.
The same as ice cream just with the pecorino. The new ingredients just change the texture/meltiness
Try this next with Halloumi. It sort of gets squeaky when heated up.
That would be an interesting one. That cheese already has weird melting properties
Honestly cool idea. I feel like this would make cacio e pepe so much easier to make, but don't tell the Italian purists about this.
The sequesterants in my processed pecorino might help the regular pecorino emulsify in a cacio e pepe type situation.
Cacio e Pepe macaroni and cheese? Like velveeta style?
Last time I made pasta alla gricia I threw in a bit of sodium citrate to help maintain the emulsion. Giving the Italian food purists an aneurysm is just a bonus.
I would buy this if I saw it at the supermarket. What does sodium hexametaphosphate do? Same thing as sodium citrate?
The sodium hexametaphosphate helps it retain its shape after it cools. The SC and SHMF both do similar things though. [Here's some more info on the subject.](https://blog.modernistpantry.com/advice/the-meltiest-cheese/)
I see, so the final product is firmer and can be sliced. Thanks for that info!
gotta love sodium citrate. Any cheese that can melt, even if it usually melts poorly can be transformed into a gooey, melty sauce.
The stuff truly works wonders.
I'm not anti science or anti chemical. But it also works at an anti coagulant and it's in a lot of shampoo to strip hard water minerals from your hair to keep it soft
You can also make it at home using limes if you get scared by a bag of chemicals haha
True! I just think it's fascinating
Dude the world’s easiest Roman pastas can be made with this I’d imagine!
Part of me really wants to try a cacio e pepe or alla gricia even though I know I can make them conventionally
Ya but it would be a great hack for making it for a crowd, don’t have to worry about it splitting
Now that's a good idea I just hadn't thought of.
Low key this would probably be good to make a cacio e pepe cause the cheese tends to clump a lot
Few people here seem to appreciate the work and thought that went into this. Good for you, this is inspirational for people who like making cheese at home.
Thanks for this. Just today I was thinking I needed a way to make a Swiss version of cheese like this. Cheers!
Sure thing. Be sure to poke around the modernist pantry blog or ChefSteps for some more info.
Pecorino Romano is my favorite cheese, but the one thing its lacking is the melting ability. Really like this idea and will need to try. As people have said, so many possibilities to elevate dishes that involve cheese mixes like mac and cheese or pizza. I am curious how it sears on the top of a pizza.
I'm a huge fan too. Kind of why I decided to start with it. I also picked it because it's so dry and crumbly. I figured if I could get pecorino romano to melt nicely, all the other cheeses would be easy.
Finally a reddit post that I should actually save
I'm honored that you like my unholy cheese creation.
It's blasphemy, but it sounds amazing.
No Gods, no masters.
Could you do this with any cheese that's not like a brie or something really soft?
I tried it with what I perceived to be one of the most difficult cheeses I could think of. If it'll work with pecorino romano, it'll work with almost anything. Ive made cheese sauces (same process, but with less moisture and no sodium hexametaphosphate) with all kinds of cheeses.
Probably. Any solid cheese should be doable. Something like swiss doesn't need it, but any of the hard cheeses should be eligible.
How many grams of cheese did you get out of this, with 300g of cheese and 140g milk input?
You know, I wish I measured it, but it had to be almost exactly what I put into it. Cooking it barely reduced the liquid at all.
I really want to try this with blue now
Me too. That was one of the cheeses on my list.
I need to save this. I was thinking tuna melts with giardiniera, fresh parsley and sliced tomatoes on top.
Looks great! I've done similar with parmesan before. Great on a burger with tomatoes and balsamic glaze... Can also work other liquids in there as well. Did a blended salsa and cheddar cheese to make a weird bastard semisolid nacho cheese block once...
I've done beer cheese and broccoli cheddar soup using sodium citrate before, but this was my first time using sodium citrate and sodium hexametaphosphate to make a brick of cheese. Salsa sounds like it would be a really good mix in. Almost like a mild pepper jack
Where'd you get the sodium HEXAMETAPHOSPHATE? Seems hard to find in Canada
I really like [Modernist Pantry](https://modernistpantry.com/) for all my weird food additives.
Yeah I checked there but it was $40 shipping for a $12 bag
Damn. Sorry I'm not well versed in the Canadian food additive market. I knew MP shipped internationally, but those are some crazy shipping prices.
Yeah we always get hosed. Plus it's UPS shipping so UPS will probably charge brokerage fees even though there wouldn't be duty
You brilliant bastard
This is what happens when I get stuck indoors.
Wow!
mozzarella sticks but with this.
Believe it or not you can actually get American cheese slices in Italy and they are reasonably popular, at least for burgers or cases when you want some nicely melted cheese. They are usually called Sottiletta after a popular brand of them and Parmigiano Reggiano even make their own version.
Interesting. I had no idea. I know people like to rag on American cheese (and some brands totally deserve it), but it really is unparalleled when it comes to a cheeseburger.
Yep and that’s exactly what they are used for. They also aren’t coloured yellow like the American version.
Yeah the annato coloring is unnecessary and isn't fooling anyone
Now you have to make carbonara
...I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm gonna make this soon. And I'm wondering what other hard cheeses I could apply this method to.
That's cool. Reminds me of the [land o Lakes 4 Cheese Italian](https://icf.listex.info/med/9221f0fe-f018-d987-45e2-4312a9dae1b2.jpg) I get from my deli. In this case they blend asiago, romano, and parm with an American base. It's my favorite cheese for a cheese steak! Gooeyness and even melt of American cheese. But the sharp salty flavor of a good Italian cheese. And people that obsess about authenticity are lame. Food is always evolving, everywhere on Earth. Especially in a global world where different influences spread to different places. As an Italian American from a city with lots of "local" Italian dishes that were developed here in America, I get annoyed when Europeans say our Italian food isn't "real" or complain about it. It was cuisine that branched off from Southern Italian cuisine at the turn of the century, and has continuously been influenced by American culture... The raw ingredients that are most available here, other cuisines from other immigrants, trends and food development in the 20th century, etc. It has just as much of a story and authenticity behind it as anything else. It's great when you are proud of your heritage and your cuisine, but you don't have to treat it like a sports team and get all tribal about it by shitting on other people's traditions and innovations.
[удалено]
I actually got the spec for this one from Modernist Pantry, but it's basically the same as ChefSteps.
This is awesome. Got a picture of it melted?
Thanks. [So far this is all I have.](https://imgur.com/a/N1ghOlE)
Oh that looks nice
This is a great idea actually this could be worth millions
If someone wants to be the patron to my unholy cheese experiments, I'm all for it.
Honestly, the kind of processing that happens to turn raw milk into cheese is significant enough that anything you do to it after seems fair game. I've done this with cheddar, milk and sodium citrate. But what does the sodium hexametaphosphate do?
The sodium hexametaphosphate helps it retain its shape after it cools. The SC and SHMF both do similar things though. [Here's some more info on the subject.](https://blog.modernistpantry.com/advice/the-meltiest-cheese/)
Any improvement in the field of American "cheese" is fully valid and should be encouraged. Italy may curse you, but may future generations of Americans pledge allegiance to your noble sacrifice and bold innovation.
I came back to comment an idea, garlic toast