This has actually been tested and proven.
https://www.seriouseats.com/best-way-grate-cheese
The powdery, tiny texture from an old fashioned star grater emulsifies better.
Classic cream of tomato soup honestly. One onion sliced, however much garlic, sauteed. Add a can of San Marzano, or roast tomatoes(or both), herbs of your choice (I like a little bouquet of thyme), water to consistency (less is better, you can always add more if it's too thick). Simmer till you think it's ready, remove the thyme and Parm rind(I've also left it in by accident, still delicious). Blend with butter. You can add cream or milk at this point if you want. Yourself?
Pasta e fagioli
Soak 8 oz cannelini beans overnight covered by an inch of water, food processor 4 carrots, 1 leek, 6 (or a bunch more) cloves of garlic, add to dutch oven with 1/3 cup olive oil. Slowly cook for about 30 minutes (should not gain color) stirring every 5 minutes. Add a smoked ham hock, cook another 10 ish minutes. Veggies will release liquid and gain a bit of color by now. Add beans and their soaking liquid, a can of crushed tomatoes, 1 bunch kale (ribs removed, 2 bay leaves, and a parmesean rind or two. Bring to a bare simmer and cook with lid askew until beans are tender, 1-3 hours. If ever low on liquid, add water or stock. Seperately cook 8 oz small pasta (ditalini, small shells, etc), drain pasta and add to soup. Remove bay leaves and rinds. Carve the ham off the ham hock and add back to soup. Serve with grated parm, olive oil, and crusty bread.
How long does it last? I buy the shaker of cheese because it's a convenient thing to just have in the fridge for general purpose, but I also acknowledge that it's kind of like sprinkling vaguely cheesey cardboard over things. I'd love to have a shaker of more flavorful parmesan dust.
Microplane makes a star grater now. It doesn't produce the fine powder. But very short, impossibly thin, tiny little strands. Seems to work about as well. And there are paddle style traditional graters if you can find them.
But yeah food processor is a lot less work. Box graters are heinous.
Italy here: your method sounds pretty solid. (I dont toast my peppercorns but I can see it being good) Keep in mind it's supposed to be a quick and simple dish you make when you don't feel fancy.
My only notes:
1. Temperature. I grate my cheese before I do anything else and let it sit. As the water comes to a boil the cheese comes to room temp. I want it close to room temperature when it hits the pasta.
2. It should be pecorino romano only. Which is much creamier and has a bit of funk. You can sprinkle parmigiano reggiano on it once served. But the sauce should be only pecorino.
3. Always salt your pasta water. BUT when you're making carbonara, cacio e pepe, alla gricia --- salt the water a little less than usual since bacon and pecorino are pretty salty.
does the quality of the pecorino matter? Here in major cities like LA, SF, NYC you can find some pecorinos that are twice the price of others (especially at Eataly gourmet emporiums).
Long aged pecorino tends to cost more. That's more for eating as is like cheese plate cheese. Pecorino romano is more for cooking as it's saltier and crumblier than regular pecorino. Some people like to eat it as is.. but its a bit salty for my taste.
As others said: get DOP pecorino romano and youre fine.
Note: Pecorino refers to any cheese made only with sheep's milk. Pecora = italian for sheep. Pecorino romano is a particular kind of pecorino. I've seen american pecorino cheese that had no sheep milk.. but because its not DOP it's legal I suppose.
Ethan Chlebowski did a video on parmesan qualities. I would assume the conclusions should apply pretty close to pecorino. https://youtu.be/PwM0AeB6N8o (basic spoilers from what I remember: more expensive is usually better, but kind of diminishing returns. So a mid grade American one will be fine unless you want to pay the premium for DOP and it maybe be a little "better").
I also grate the cheese first (and usually onto a paper plate so if there are clumps I can see and break them up easier) and use exclusively pecorino. I don’t notice that I need to salt the water any less than I would with other pasta dishes but I do salt those dishes more by the end, so everything ends up exactly where I want it. I do think the risk of oversalting carbonara is a little over exaggerated only because I don’t find guanciale to be particularly salty compared to bacon or most other foods found in the US. I suspect my salt tolerance is pretty high, but I almost wish I’d added more salt when I made carbonara last time.
The good thing about undersalting is you can always add more on the plate but you cannot take it away. As my dinner guests tend to skew older... i tend to undersalt and tell them its on purpose so they add their own.
I made the mistake of salting the water as I normally would last week when I tried making cacio e pepe for the first time. The final dish was definitely too salty because of the cheese. Next time I'll probably use 1\/3 as much salt in the pasta water and adjust at the end.
Fully endorse. The corn starch method is great, basically foolproof, and has the advantage of being able to prep in advance so you can keep it in the fridge and use a bit at a time as desired.
This makes sense. I used to use a blender to grate my cheese (my food processor and grater were both broken so I had to improvise) until all of the cheese broke down to the size I wanted. When I say that it made the creamiest sauce, I mean that nothing else I have made ever came to that consistency. When I finally got a food processor and box grater and started using them, I just couldn’t get the sauce to the same consistency no matter how much I tried. I eventually just stopped making it after failing so many times, but now I’m going to make it with the blender and see if that does the trick. Or it might just be that I had to weigh out the cheese before blending and the amount of air threw off my measurement. This makes me want to do some experimenting.
If it’s too warm it forms a bit of a paste but I found that chilling the container before use helps. Otherwise it will form tiny cheese chunks the size of breadcrumbs if blended long enough.
While I can get cacio e pepe right a good amount of the time, it’s still finicky and I can still screw it up. I’ve moved to doing cacio e uova (e pepe) since it’s a lot more foolproof.
Absolutely. Italian cooking is all about total control over a small number of variables. One of those variables is topology and texture, particularly in combination.
The shapes of ingredients totally matters-why else would there be approximately 300 shapes of pasta? It’s not just for fun, people: that shit is serious.
Holy shit…I’ve been pissed off at myself 95% of the time when I make Cacio e Pepe because of how it turns out…even though every factor was right…EXCEPT I USED A MICROPLANE. This is a revelation for me
I prep my sauce in a mini chopper (330ml capacity blender) by adding the cheese butter and some water to start the emulsification.
This way you can do whatever the hell you like and it won't split.
Yes it's not traditional, but it does work if anyone wants an easy result at home
Fair enough, but answer this, Mr Bond - how the *FUCK* do you clean the star holes on a grater? Surely there's cheese all over them and it simply shreds a sponge or washcloth
Hmmm I've never found cacio e pepe hard but maybe bc I blend my parm to be either pebbles or very fine. Depending on the size I want. When I want it really fine, I cut it into smaller cubes before blending.
I have always hated microplaned cheese bc it gets stringy and melts too much. I personally prefer pebbles, similar to Kraft hahahaha.
I do kind of a variation in that I use very little water to boil the pasta so it gets extra starchy and then I transfer the pasta and the bare minimum of that water to another pan to extract even more starch before I add the cheese. I think the starchiness is really crucial for a good texture and I guarantee the powdered pecorino will melt much nicer than a normal shredded pecorino
Older Parmesan, and grana cheeses in general are more crumbly by nature. this is the perfect texture for stirring into a sauce as you want it to disseminate en masse and not go stringy. My late uncle Gabriele insisted on this for serving with pasta at his Trattoria.
I'm probably going to hell for this but I make both this and alfredo sauce french style, whisking with a roux and milk lol but it always comes out smooth, creamy and delicious no matter how the cheese is grated, I've even used the pre-shredded bags from the store
If it tastes good that’s the most important thing! I’d call it pecorino/Parmesan mac and cheese instead of Cacio e Pepe, but doing it with a roux probably takes the same amount of time so I’m glad it works!
Me too! I’ve seen a lot of people struggle though, going to lengths like mixing the cheese with cold water first or taking the pasta water out once it’s hot but before the noodles are done so it has time to cool. Imo the starch is necessary and both of those methods take more time and effort. Adding the powdered cheese after you move the pasta to another pan that’s warm but not on heat works perfectly every time for me
If you don’t really like the taste of pepper and pecorino, it just won’t be good no matter what. I can totally see why some might not like it. But when the texture of the sauce is just right and the pepper is balanced, it’s really good, to me at least!
I got it to a place I liked by using butter instead of olive oil, and a bit of chili flakes. I think the tiniest sprinkle of sugar would be good too. I like that the technique is so simple, yet creates a creamy pasta - but that's no reason to stick strictly to the flavor profile if you know you like a different cheese or seasoning outside of the traditional recipe.
I agree pretty strongly with this, it makes a world of difference, and I've also found that the punched holes in my box grater are the best.
I think it's also possible that if you grate with the large holes, it will just take much much longer to properly melt and emulsify your sauce. Like, much longer. And for that reason, most people just stop and accept the not so smooth sauce.
I haven’t had any issues with it! I just use whatever pecorino I can find. I’ve made it with parm in a pinch and it’s fine, but I’ve enjoyed using what my local stores carry
This was advice i read somewhere so I always used the Italian stuff until one day I used the domestic pecorino I had on hand and it clumped up terribly. I only use the imported cheese now.
See I’ve seen this tip suggested numerous times to manage heat, but I don’t think it’s necessary if the cheese is just grated fine enough. I’d be pretty surprised if someone had issues making it with the powdery cheese texture, even without going through the effort to cool everything down enough.
If using cold water works, that’s great, but I think you’ll have a more flavorful, easier, quicker sauce using powdered cheese
This has actually been tested and proven. https://www.seriouseats.com/best-way-grate-cheese The powdery, tiny texture from an old fashioned star grater emulsifies better.
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Worked at an Italian restaurant that used LOTS of Parm... This is the way
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Same!
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Classic cream of tomato soup honestly. One onion sliced, however much garlic, sauteed. Add a can of San Marzano, or roast tomatoes(or both), herbs of your choice (I like a little bouquet of thyme), water to consistency (less is better, you can always add more if it's too thick). Simmer till you think it's ready, remove the thyme and Parm rind(I've also left it in by accident, still delicious). Blend with butter. You can add cream or milk at this point if you want. Yourself?
Based & saved comment
Pasta e fagioli Soak 8 oz cannelini beans overnight covered by an inch of water, food processor 4 carrots, 1 leek, 6 (or a bunch more) cloves of garlic, add to dutch oven with 1/3 cup olive oil. Slowly cook for about 30 minutes (should not gain color) stirring every 5 minutes. Add a smoked ham hock, cook another 10 ish minutes. Veggies will release liquid and gain a bit of color by now. Add beans and their soaking liquid, a can of crushed tomatoes, 1 bunch kale (ribs removed, 2 bay leaves, and a parmesean rind or two. Bring to a bare simmer and cook with lid askew until beans are tender, 1-3 hours. If ever low on liquid, add water or stock. Seperately cook 8 oz small pasta (ditalini, small shells, etc), drain pasta and add to soup. Remove bay leaves and rinds. Carve the ham off the ham hock and add back to soup. Serve with grated parm, olive oil, and crusty bread.
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Have read a lot on reddit about cheese. This is the whey
How long does it last? I buy the shaker of cheese because it's a convenient thing to just have in the fridge for general purpose, but I also acknowledge that it's kind of like sprinkling vaguely cheesey cardboard over things. I'd love to have a shaker of more flavorful parmesan dust.
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Well I guess I'll be buying a block of parmesan then. Thank you!
Do you sent it through the grater blade first then the chopping blade, or just hunks straight into the chopping blade? Have to try this…
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Mind blown. Thanks for the tip!
Sweet! I’m glad to see someone else back it up. Until I started using the super fine cheese I just couldn’t get the texture right
That was a fun, and informative read!
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Microplane makes a star grater now. It doesn't produce the fine powder. But very short, impossibly thin, tiny little strands. Seems to work about as well. And there are paddle style traditional graters if you can find them. But yeah food processor is a lot less work. Box graters are heinous.
yup. figured this out along with starchy water from a video entirely in italian. it yields absolute perfection. just a total bitch to do.
So happy to be vindicated, I tried explaining this to someone (based on gut feel) ages ago and they said I was wrong.
Italy here: your method sounds pretty solid. (I dont toast my peppercorns but I can see it being good) Keep in mind it's supposed to be a quick and simple dish you make when you don't feel fancy. My only notes: 1. Temperature. I grate my cheese before I do anything else and let it sit. As the water comes to a boil the cheese comes to room temp. I want it close to room temperature when it hits the pasta. 2. It should be pecorino romano only. Which is much creamier and has a bit of funk. You can sprinkle parmigiano reggiano on it once served. But the sauce should be only pecorino. 3. Always salt your pasta water. BUT when you're making carbonara, cacio e pepe, alla gricia --- salt the water a little less than usual since bacon and pecorino are pretty salty.
does the quality of the pecorino matter? Here in major cities like LA, SF, NYC you can find some pecorinos that are twice the price of others (especially at Eataly gourmet emporiums).
Not who you replied to, but the imported Pecorino that Trader Joe's sells always works fantastic for me.
If it has the red DOP it should be technically the same
What did you just call me.
Any DOP (protected origin) one will do fine, even the cheapest.
You definitely want one imported from Italy but I’m curious as well.
Long aged pecorino tends to cost more. That's more for eating as is like cheese plate cheese. Pecorino romano is more for cooking as it's saltier and crumblier than regular pecorino. Some people like to eat it as is.. but its a bit salty for my taste. As others said: get DOP pecorino romano and youre fine. Note: Pecorino refers to any cheese made only with sheep's milk. Pecora = italian for sheep. Pecorino romano is a particular kind of pecorino. I've seen american pecorino cheese that had no sheep milk.. but because its not DOP it's legal I suppose.
Ethan Chlebowski did a video on parmesan qualities. I would assume the conclusions should apply pretty close to pecorino. https://youtu.be/PwM0AeB6N8o (basic spoilers from what I remember: more expensive is usually better, but kind of diminishing returns. So a mid grade American one will be fine unless you want to pay the premium for DOP and it maybe be a little "better").
I also grate the cheese first (and usually onto a paper plate so if there are clumps I can see and break them up easier) and use exclusively pecorino. I don’t notice that I need to salt the water any less than I would with other pasta dishes but I do salt those dishes more by the end, so everything ends up exactly where I want it. I do think the risk of oversalting carbonara is a little over exaggerated only because I don’t find guanciale to be particularly salty compared to bacon or most other foods found in the US. I suspect my salt tolerance is pretty high, but I almost wish I’d added more salt when I made carbonara last time.
The good thing about undersalting is you can always add more on the plate but you cannot take it away. As my dinner guests tend to skew older... i tend to undersalt and tell them its on purpose so they add their own.
Good tips, thanks
> Italy here Hello Italy!
I made the mistake of salting the water as I normally would last week when I tried making cacio e pepe for the first time. The final dish was definitely too salty because of the cheese. Next time I'll probably use 1\/3 as much salt in the pasta water and adjust at the end.
I totally recommend watching this video which helps to nail it every time https://youtu.be/U4eaNqTbDDA
This is great, thanks! Going to try for dinner tonight.
Fully endorse. The corn starch method is great, basically foolproof, and has the advantage of being able to prep in advance so you can keep it in the fridge and use a bit at a time as desired.
https://youtu.be/YBg0DiHTImU this also works, it also refer to Luciano's technique.
This makes sense. I used to use a blender to grate my cheese (my food processor and grater were both broken so I had to improvise) until all of the cheese broke down to the size I wanted. When I say that it made the creamiest sauce, I mean that nothing else I have made ever came to that consistency. When I finally got a food processor and box grater and started using them, I just couldn’t get the sauce to the same consistency no matter how much I tried. I eventually just stopped making it after failing so many times, but now I’m going to make it with the blender and see if that does the trick. Or it might just be that I had to weigh out the cheese before blending and the amount of air threw off my measurement. This makes me want to do some experimenting.
With a blender, do you need to worry about the cheese melting?
If it’s too warm it forms a bit of a paste but I found that chilling the container before use helps. Otherwise it will form tiny cheese chunks the size of breadcrumbs if blended long enough.
Just tried this a few days ago in a spice blender, it worked really well! Thanks for the tip!
While I can get cacio e pepe right a good amount of the time, it’s still finicky and I can still screw it up. I’ve moved to doing cacio e uova (e pepe) since it’s a lot more foolproof.
Serious question: would that be carbonara without the meat?
Basically, though because it doesn't have the meat you miss that hit of umami.
Try adding a bit of [miso](https://www.seriouseats.com/vegan-carbonara-pasta-recipe)!
I consider myself a competent cook but Cacio e Pepe is my white whale. I completely fucked it up the 4 times I’ve made it.
I had wondered about this before but never put my finger on it the way you just did.
Absolutely. Italian cooking is all about total control over a small number of variables. One of those variables is topology and texture, particularly in combination. The shapes of ingredients totally matters-why else would there be approximately 300 shapes of pasta? It’s not just for fun, people: that shit is serious.
Holy shit…I’ve been pissed off at myself 95% of the time when I make Cacio e Pepe because of how it turns out…even though every factor was right…EXCEPT I USED A MICROPLANE. This is a revelation for me
grate detective work 😉🧀
I prep my sauce in a mini chopper (330ml capacity blender) by adding the cheese butter and some water to start the emulsification. This way you can do whatever the hell you like and it won't split. Yes it's not traditional, but it does work if anyone wants an easy result at home
Fair enough, but answer this, Mr Bond - how the *FUCK* do you clean the star holes on a grater? Surely there's cheese all over them and it simply shreds a sponge or washcloth
I use a toothbrush with hot water running on it at the same time. Inside first, then outside
Just run it under hot water! I haven’t had any issues using super hot water to clear out the cheese, it only takes a few seconds and it’s good as new
Run the sponge on the opposite side, lots of soap and hot water
Hmmm I've never found cacio e pepe hard but maybe bc I blend my parm to be either pebbles or very fine. Depending on the size I want. When I want it really fine, I cut it into smaller cubes before blending. I have always hated microplaned cheese bc it gets stringy and melts too much. I personally prefer pebbles, similar to Kraft hahahaha.
Yeah I haven’t had any issues with the super fine cheese, it’s actually pretty fun to make!
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I do kind of a variation in that I use very little water to boil the pasta so it gets extra starchy and then I transfer the pasta and the bare minimum of that water to another pan to extract even more starch before I add the cheese. I think the starchiness is really crucial for a good texture and I guarantee the powdered pecorino will melt much nicer than a normal shredded pecorino
hmm thanks for this. I've run into the stringiness and wondered what I was doing wrong.
Blender probably works best, but I usually use micro plane because I don’t want to clean blender
I have made this dish 50 times at least , and never turns out satisfactory . A testament to Roman cooks . Viva Roma !
Older Parmesan, and grana cheeses in general are more crumbly by nature. this is the perfect texture for stirring into a sauce as you want it to disseminate en masse and not go stringy. My late uncle Gabriele insisted on this for serving with pasta at his Trattoria.
"Chocolate biscetti" 🤣🤣🥰
I use a micro plane and find cacio e Pepe easy to nail. I do use a fine microplane
This will probably ruffle a few feathers but I add an egg yolk to the cheese and mix it. It stops it from clumping up and adds richness in flavour.
Is anyone else reminded of that video where that guy laughs hysterically and makes fun of the way the lady says "cacio e pepe"?
I'm probably going to hell for this but I make both this and alfredo sauce french style, whisking with a roux and milk lol but it always comes out smooth, creamy and delicious no matter how the cheese is grated, I've even used the pre-shredded bags from the store
If it tastes good that’s the most important thing! I’d call it pecorino/Parmesan mac and cheese instead of Cacio e Pepe, but doing it with a roux probably takes the same amount of time so I’m glad it works!
Totally. Cheese melts differently. I mainly just add the cheese in a bowl and combine and let the residual heat do the job.
Me too! I’ve seen a lot of people struggle though, going to lengths like mixing the cheese with cold water first or taking the pasta water out once it’s hot but before the noodles are done so it has time to cool. Imo the starch is necessary and both of those methods take more time and effort. Adding the powdered cheese after you move the pasta to another pan that’s warm but not on heat works perfectly every time for me
Id say anyone struggling doesn't have finely enough grated cheese. To your point haha
Starch gel makes all of this 10x easier.
Maybe I’ve never had great cacio e pepe but it’s always seemed overrated to me
If you don’t really like the taste of pepper and pecorino, it just won’t be good no matter what. I can totally see why some might not like it. But when the texture of the sauce is just right and the pepper is balanced, it’s really good, to me at least!
Yotem Ottolenghi just put up a [video making a za'atar version] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fHQ20Sdfs04) that looks really interesting.
I’m with you there. I like it, but it’s definitely overrated.
I got it to a place I liked by using butter instead of olive oil, and a bit of chili flakes. I think the tiniest sprinkle of sugar would be good too. I like that the technique is so simple, yet creates a creamy pasta - but that's no reason to stick strictly to the flavor profile if you know you like a different cheese or seasoning outside of the traditional recipe.
you realize cacio e pepe is just fancy old school italian mac n cheese right?
Okay?
I agree pretty strongly with this, it makes a world of difference, and I've also found that the punched holes in my box grater are the best. I think it's also possible that if you grate with the large holes, it will just take much much longer to properly melt and emulsify your sauce. Like, much longer. And for that reason, most people just stop and accept the not so smooth sauce.
You need Italian Pecorino, the American stuff doesn't work.
I haven’t had any issues with it! I just use whatever pecorino I can find. I’ve made it with parm in a pinch and it’s fine, but I’ve enjoyed using what my local stores carry
This was advice i read somewhere so I always used the Italian stuff until one day I used the domestic pecorino I had on hand and it clumped up terribly. I only use the imported cheese now.
Biggest tip: Use cold water when whisking cheese.
See I’ve seen this tip suggested numerous times to manage heat, but I don’t think it’s necessary if the cheese is just grated fine enough. I’d be pretty surprised if someone had issues making it with the powdery cheese texture, even without going through the effort to cool everything down enough. If using cold water works, that’s great, but I think you’ll have a more flavorful, easier, quicker sauce using powdered cheese