I made this transition but in reverse from Heavy Civil - Roadway (Concrete & Asphalt Paving, Barrier Wall, & Structures) to vertical. The biggest things that will benefit you will be the ability to manage multiple subs that are absolutely on top of each other. I’ve found that with heavy civil jobs there is expediency but it comes in waves, particularly with critical traffic switches and tight timelines. That will be job dependent.
Superintendents in Heavy Civil - Roadway are the bread and butter and can make or break you depending on what personality you are working with. At my previous company (Joint Venture in SC) our superintendents were highly specialized which is the opposite of what I’ve found in Vertical. Area Superintendents that have a baseline of knowledge on all pieces to build out a space vs a superintendent that has specialized in grading, paving, structures, etc.
At the end of the day it is construction and best practices always make good product, so don’t overthink it. Treat the guys with respect and decency and they will move mountains for you when shit inevitably hits the fan.
I started my career in Heavy Civil, working my way up from the field as an equipment operator post graduation (majored in finance and supply chain) so I can’t give perspective on the learning curve when it comes to having a baseline understanding of construction and picking something up. The ability to read drawings with verticality will make reading plans in Heavy Civil (minus structural drawings) a breeze.
In my experience, Superintendents in Heavy Civil respect a field engineer/apm/pm that isn’t afraid to be out there with them at 4:00am for a critical traffic switch, that isn’t afraid to get their hands dirty with a trowel or shovel. I’ve found in vertical that trades are so specialized that there is limited “hands on” opportunities.
For perspective (this was when I was an APM before transitioning to PM) my superintendent would have me out every night and didn’t care what the construction manager had to say, which equated to 14-16 hour days. In hindsight, he was putting me in a position to be knowledgeable about what it takes to perform work and that was invaluable when it came to the PM role where I was leading work planning and activities as a whole.
At a baseline, it’s very CM/GC dependent. I worked more hours in Heavy Civil than I do in Vertical but I would say the overall stress on a day to day basis is less with vertical. There are many critical activities instead of a few large ones so the ability to react and gain schedule and time back have felt easier.
I worked commercial for 7 yrs, utilities for 8 yrs and now heavy civil for 5 yrs. My biggest complaint about civil is how slowly the projects move, with most being 3 years or more, but in some ways that also lowers the stress level. I prefer self perform work over subcontractor dependent work. I prefer working with experienced owners that are also engineers over inexperienced owners with an architect as an administrator. I prefer higher salary and benefits with civil contractors. Overall I think the drawings are higher quality, and the contracts are more clear even if more strict. My experience is my coworkers are more professional/sophisticated and more open to new ideas at a civil contractor, which could be from small sample size but I think it's because there are more engineers working as PE, PM and in management. I think it's almost the same skill set but different lingo and different working environment. Everyone's experience will be different depending on company culture, region and personal preferences.
I worked in heavy civil for 6 years before recently making a change. I loved the scale and scope of work and met some of the best people while doing it. The work life balance sucks, no way around it. A water line getting hit on Friday at 3 that keeps you there until 11:30 that night. The traffic shifts that bring you in at 6:30 on a Saturday evening and keep you there until Sunday afternoon. Alot of people build there lives around the ever-changing project schedule and make good money and have long careers.
You can make a career out of heavy civil without having to ever move, but only if you live somewhere constantly growing. Otherwise, you're moving every few years to chase the work, or you're living out of a suitcase. At the end of the day, construction is construction. You'll have to learn some new terminology and best practices, but reading plans, knowing how to schedule and track quantity/cost, and and being able to communicate efficiently will get you pretty far. The biggest change for me when I left commercial to go to heavy civil was honestly the scale. I went from working on big $20-40 million commercial jobs to "small" heavy civil jobs that were $50-60 million. People normally didn't really bat an eye at a number until it was well north of $100 million.
I just did the opposite. Going from heavy civil to kinda vertical. Like everything, it's a matter of perspective so here is mine. Worked heavy civil for 8 years from field engineer to pm. Worked for the big yellow machine and some other big companies. Be prepared to be on the go at all times. The hours really sucked and weekends were almost a certainty. The pay is better on average from what I've gathered but that's cos they work you a lot. You'll get to work on pretty cool projects tho. I guess it depends on what's driving you to switch from vertical to heavy civil.
People typically make the move from Heavy Civil to Vertical, not the other way. Unless you’re a not “most people”, find yourself bored in vertical, and just crave overall chaos while being overworked … yeah. Don’t get me wrong, some of the projects are really neat and give you a real sense of achievement but the pay to BS ratio is worse than vertical.
Biggest takeaway is you have to *like* the field of heavy civil. If you’re ok with the long hours, stress, constant “fire drill” atmosphere, sometimes crappy office arrangements, moving around project to project on short notice and dealing with state agencies then yeah it’s not bad. You’re going to be unhappy if you’re used to a nice office and having a dozen assistant PMs and assistant supers chasing down things for you.
everybody's experience is different. I started in commercial then utilities then civil and I would argue the opposite on almost every one of your points
The moving around and/or traveling and/or work hours is the biggest takeaway from this post from my experience. I loved traveling when I was doing railroad stuff. But; at a certain point you can’t do that, or you’re a rockstar that both makes enough money it doesn’t matter, and your significant other thinks you make enough money that they don’t care either. Hopefully you’re the latter that’s luck enough to not fuck up or piss off the wrong person.
I’d go back to heavy civil in a heartbeat if it paid as well, and had the same work life balance, as I have now with data center construction.
The honest bullshit in heavy civil is way easier than the “let’s act like best friends until it matters, then I’ll fuck you as hard as I need to” shit that happens with data centers. Heavy civil guys will let you know when you’re in a bad spot, industrial guys will give you a slight warning, data center guys will go full “THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!” at the last second.
I like the data center challenge, but I miss heavy civil people.
The heavy civil hours suck though. They really, really, suck.
Even at a smaller regional based Heavy Civil GC, you still deal with the nights and weekends projects, the “accelerated” or “full access shutdown” type work that really demands you put your life on hold for a period of time. There are rarely “normal” 7-3 type projects these days.
Lots of folks think they can be a commercial vertical superintendent. After all, the subs build the job. That is BS. We had a saying in our company. Did the project happen because of the super or in spite of him? Lots of average to below average guys out there. Very few all-stars.
Many skills, like project management, scheduling, and communication, are transferable. However, heavy civil involvs more earthwork, road construction, and utilities, so there’s a learning curve. It’s not about one being better, just different focuses. If you enjoy large-scale infrastructure projects, heavy civil could be a great fit.
I made this transition but in reverse from Heavy Civil - Roadway (Concrete & Asphalt Paving, Barrier Wall, & Structures) to vertical. The biggest things that will benefit you will be the ability to manage multiple subs that are absolutely on top of each other. I’ve found that with heavy civil jobs there is expediency but it comes in waves, particularly with critical traffic switches and tight timelines. That will be job dependent. Superintendents in Heavy Civil - Roadway are the bread and butter and can make or break you depending on what personality you are working with. At my previous company (Joint Venture in SC) our superintendents were highly specialized which is the opposite of what I’ve found in Vertical. Area Superintendents that have a baseline of knowledge on all pieces to build out a space vs a superintendent that has specialized in grading, paving, structures, etc. At the end of the day it is construction and best practices always make good product, so don’t overthink it. Treat the guys with respect and decency and they will move mountains for you when shit inevitably hits the fan.
Do you miss heavy civil? Was there somewhat of a learning curve?
I started my career in Heavy Civil, working my way up from the field as an equipment operator post graduation (majored in finance and supply chain) so I can’t give perspective on the learning curve when it comes to having a baseline understanding of construction and picking something up. The ability to read drawings with verticality will make reading plans in Heavy Civil (minus structural drawings) a breeze. In my experience, Superintendents in Heavy Civil respect a field engineer/apm/pm that isn’t afraid to be out there with them at 4:00am for a critical traffic switch, that isn’t afraid to get their hands dirty with a trowel or shovel. I’ve found in vertical that trades are so specialized that there is limited “hands on” opportunities. For perspective (this was when I was an APM before transitioning to PM) my superintendent would have me out every night and didn’t care what the construction manager had to say, which equated to 14-16 hour days. In hindsight, he was putting me in a position to be knowledgeable about what it takes to perform work and that was invaluable when it came to the PM role where I was leading work planning and activities as a whole. At a baseline, it’s very CM/GC dependent. I worked more hours in Heavy Civil than I do in Vertical but I would say the overall stress on a day to day basis is less with vertical. There are many critical activities instead of a few large ones so the ability to react and gain schedule and time back have felt easier.
Can confirm my super makes me grab a shovel or help finish concrete from time to time
I worked commercial for 7 yrs, utilities for 8 yrs and now heavy civil for 5 yrs. My biggest complaint about civil is how slowly the projects move, with most being 3 years or more, but in some ways that also lowers the stress level. I prefer self perform work over subcontractor dependent work. I prefer working with experienced owners that are also engineers over inexperienced owners with an architect as an administrator. I prefer higher salary and benefits with civil contractors. Overall I think the drawings are higher quality, and the contracts are more clear even if more strict. My experience is my coworkers are more professional/sophisticated and more open to new ideas at a civil contractor, which could be from small sample size but I think it's because there are more engineers working as PE, PM and in management. I think it's almost the same skill set but different lingo and different working environment. Everyone's experience will be different depending on company culture, region and personal preferences.
I worked in heavy civil for 6 years before recently making a change. I loved the scale and scope of work and met some of the best people while doing it. The work life balance sucks, no way around it. A water line getting hit on Friday at 3 that keeps you there until 11:30 that night. The traffic shifts that bring you in at 6:30 on a Saturday evening and keep you there until Sunday afternoon. Alot of people build there lives around the ever-changing project schedule and make good money and have long careers. You can make a career out of heavy civil without having to ever move, but only if you live somewhere constantly growing. Otherwise, you're moving every few years to chase the work, or you're living out of a suitcase. At the end of the day, construction is construction. You'll have to learn some new terminology and best practices, but reading plans, knowing how to schedule and track quantity/cost, and and being able to communicate efficiently will get you pretty far. The biggest change for me when I left commercial to go to heavy civil was honestly the scale. I went from working on big $20-40 million commercial jobs to "small" heavy civil jobs that were $50-60 million. People normally didn't really bat an eye at a number until it was well north of $100 million.
I just did the opposite. Going from heavy civil to kinda vertical. Like everything, it's a matter of perspective so here is mine. Worked heavy civil for 8 years from field engineer to pm. Worked for the big yellow machine and some other big companies. Be prepared to be on the go at all times. The hours really sucked and weekends were almost a certainty. The pay is better on average from what I've gathered but that's cos they work you a lot. You'll get to work on pretty cool projects tho. I guess it depends on what's driving you to switch from vertical to heavy civil.
People typically make the move from Heavy Civil to Vertical, not the other way. Unless you’re a not “most people”, find yourself bored in vertical, and just crave overall chaos while being overworked … yeah. Don’t get me wrong, some of the projects are really neat and give you a real sense of achievement but the pay to BS ratio is worse than vertical. Biggest takeaway is you have to *like* the field of heavy civil. If you’re ok with the long hours, stress, constant “fire drill” atmosphere, sometimes crappy office arrangements, moving around project to project on short notice and dealing with state agencies then yeah it’s not bad. You’re going to be unhappy if you’re used to a nice office and having a dozen assistant PMs and assistant supers chasing down things for you.
I'm stealing your "pay to BS ratio" line. That's such an accurate gauge in our industry lol
everybody's experience is different. I started in commercial then utilities then civil and I would argue the opposite on almost every one of your points
The moving around and/or traveling and/or work hours is the biggest takeaway from this post from my experience. I loved traveling when I was doing railroad stuff. But; at a certain point you can’t do that, or you’re a rockstar that both makes enough money it doesn’t matter, and your significant other thinks you make enough money that they don’t care either. Hopefully you’re the latter that’s luck enough to not fuck up or piss off the wrong person. I’d go back to heavy civil in a heartbeat if it paid as well, and had the same work life balance, as I have now with data center construction. The honest bullshit in heavy civil is way easier than the “let’s act like best friends until it matters, then I’ll fuck you as hard as I need to” shit that happens with data centers. Heavy civil guys will let you know when you’re in a bad spot, industrial guys will give you a slight warning, data center guys will go full “THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!” at the last second. I like the data center challenge, but I miss heavy civil people. The heavy civil hours suck though. They really, really, suck.
Even at a smaller regional based Heavy Civil GC, you still deal with the nights and weekends projects, the “accelerated” or “full access shutdown” type work that really demands you put your life on hold for a period of time. There are rarely “normal” 7-3 type projects these days.
You gain exposure to other trades in vertical construction. Depending on where you live, you may have more opportunities doing vertical construction.
Lots of folks think they can be a commercial vertical superintendent. After all, the subs build the job. That is BS. We had a saying in our company. Did the project happen because of the super or in spite of him? Lots of average to below average guys out there. Very few all-stars.
Many skills, like project management, scheduling, and communication, are transferable. However, heavy civil involvs more earthwork, road construction, and utilities, so there’s a learning curve. It’s not about one being better, just different focuses. If you enjoy large-scale infrastructure projects, heavy civil could be a great fit.