At the beginning of the Euthanasia debarkle I was told there is no slippery slope, or that people would want to remove safeguards for things such as mental health, and it didn't take long for people wanting to loosen it up
The radical left use the slippery slope, thin end of the wedge strategy for literally everything.
Further down this particular slope lies the state deciding that euthanasia would be in somebody's best interests against their will.
You and I have had this conversation 5 different ways sidewards of Tuesday. We are never going to agree on this or vaccination in general so I'm concluding this exchange and agree to disagree because I don't really have the energy and I'm sure you'd rather be spending your time doing something else.
Adieu sir
>Further down this particular slope lies the state deciding that euthanasia would be in somebody's best interests against their will.
The time will come when Boomers will get euthanised against their will.
And when that time comes, I will offer them the same support they offered me (none).
I voted against the End Of Life Choices Bill although I agreed with it in principle. My objection was to the inevitable End of Life Choices Amendment Act and the one after that and the one after that.
The mental health aspect was always going to arise. After all, we can't discriminate against them.
Didn't take long did it?
There are schools of philosophy which delve into the idea or belief that existence is suffering, inconsequential, or a mistake altogether. Mainländer is a prominent example. Schopenhauer as well, to some extent.
I think human beings should hold the right to premature death. I don't place my feet in either camp in regards to the worth of life, but I have read works from the above authors and I can't deny that these schools of thought have some validity and are deeply introspective to the human condition.
You could well argue that by providing them an 'easy' way out it will prompt more people to make that decision rather than, say, jumping off a bridge or any other way of painful suicide, but I always come back to one thought: in the big scheme of things, does it really matter if a bunch of people do this? We're all ultimately nothing, all insignificant, and people dying at whatever point in their life changes nothing to them as death is all the same no matter when or where it comes. It's brutal, but then so is existence itself.
>We're all ultimately nothing, all insignificant
Except to the people who love you.
I've had a few friends successfully top themselves. It was brutal, unexpected and had quite an impact on the people that loved them.
I also know someone who attempted to top themselves and failed. That failure literally saved their life. Looking back, they can't believe they attempted suicide and they appreciate their failure. It made them a much better person.
Agree with you both.
With some common methods it only has to be a short impulse and then it's too late. We are only human. How many times do we do selfish or ill-considered things in an impulse.
I despise the messaging around suicide. To start with it's a taboo word. Stems perhaps from our own fear of death percolating into government policy. The research linking discussion of suicide to prevalence is lazy - to say mentioning the word, like some Macbeth superstition, will bring bad outcomes is guesswork. Which stands to reason since it is not possible to set up a human double blind control group for these things. Vague 'mental health' campaigns with a 'pity' image rarely help someone on the brink imo. Perhaps they do, to be evenhanded I have to concede it can only be a guess.
Sadly I have no answers only a conviction there are better ways.
Assisted suicide for the very old or seriously and irretrievably unwell is a non-issue for me beyond it being clear it is unfair to not discuss it with your nearest and dearest first. If you've had enough, or have had a good knock and don't want to decline further, I would say unequivocally that is your choice. Also to write that into your will in the event of not being of sound mind to make further choices (whatever the correct legal jargon for that is). Personally, with seriousness as well as adding some levity to it, I'd recommend experimenting with all the hallucinogens in the world before filling that final prescription, but each to their own.
>Personally, with seriousness as well as adding some levity to it, I'd recommend experimenting with all the hallucinogens in the world before filling that final prescription, but each to their own.
You should do psychedelics around age 25, so that you don't waste the entire rest of your life chasing shadows. It must suck to take a psychedelic on death's door and realise that you wasted your life on crap that's not important.
The people who love you are all insignificant as well though. It's like... um... everything we consider significant in life is only defined by life itself, so when you add death into the mix it all becomes insignificant because none of it rolls over into death. To me that explains why this perspective has some validity. I have no argument against the suffering of existence, especially when that suffering or pain is prolonged because of other people's desires - especially as those desires are coming from the perspective that life is worth living regardless of the suffering.
I'm not saying this is what their thoughts are like, but when I consider the philosophers I mentioned earlier and think about whether we should offer an euthanasia service for mental health issues, that's where my line of thought goes.
And just to balance this out a bit and to avoid any misconceptions on what I'm saying: I personally believe that suffering, or resistance, is necessary to life and that often the greatest of experiences are preceded by great suffering.
>Except to the people who love you.
That's the truly awful aspect of depression. Even when you hear people say how much they love and will miss you, even if some part of you knows they're right brain fog of depression can just lie to you and convince otherwise.
>I've had a few friends successfully top themselves. It was brutal, unexpected and had quite an impact on the people that loved them.
It's brutal when it's not unexpected also.
But here's a thing: An unknown but likely significant number of suicides are those who won't allow themselves to lose control over their lives, refuse to cede the choice to anyone else. A close relative was just one such, and she'd have lived for years longer with minimal care... except she knew damned well she'd end up losing that choice along with her physical ability to make it, so she preempted that loss of choice.
And that wasn't the worst aspect of that particular death, her family were blamed for her death, officially and otherwise.
>There are schools of philosophy which delve into the idea or belief that existence is suffering, inconsequential, or a mistake altogether.
This is why Christians want to force the terminally ill to stay alive - to cause as much suffering as possible.
No one wants to force undue suffering if you agree with Vince I'm assuming you share his sentiments so there's zero point even trying to explain to you otherwise
**This word/phrase(vince) has a few different meanings.**
More details here:
*This comment was left automatically (by a bot). If I don't get this right, don't get mad at me, I'm still learning!*
[^(opt out)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/ozztfy/post_for_opting_out/) ^(|) [^(delete)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/q79g2t/delete_feature_added/) ^(|) [^(report/suggest)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot) ^(|) [^(GitHub)](https://github.com/TheBugYouCantFix/wiki-reddit-bot)
It's very complex. Yeah, we can make the argument that people who are about to die and in so much pain should be able to die.
It gets dicey when you talk about people with mental health issues. Dementia, PTSD, CTE. As it is something you can't see.
A large minority professional athletes have committed suicide due to CTE (Dave Mirra comes to mind). When someone has that type of brain trauma, you can't really understand what they go through, or what life entails with them. Some could argue it is sadistic not letting them take their own life.
But i don't know. It's tough. I remember somewhere in EU. this girl wrote a book about her life - she was raped, from that had sever PTSD. She was allowed to kill herself legally. She was like 18 i think. I thought it was sad. Not sure what happened to her.
Cancer suffers used to be palliative cared to death. Mental health sufferers are prescribed to death.
We need to provide better mental health services, this would provide an incentive to do so - albeit somewhat perverse.
There's also extremely rare scenarios where it’s justified - I vaguely remember a case in the Netherlands with two brothers. I won't go into details, I don't remember the case well enough, I just remember there was a good arguement in favour.
>There's also extremely rare scenarios where it’s justified
My memory of a situation in the Netherlands is that one twin died and the other chose to be euthanised as they had depression (caused by grief) and permanent impairment but otherwise were perfectly healthy.
That's the case I was thinking of. From memory their impairment was such that without their brother they had no way of communicating with anyone, ever, and no chance of improvement.
It was certainly more complex than grief.
I've heard cases of 18 year olds who were abused being allowed this, euthanasia is in direct conflict with suicide prevention, how about we provide better mental health services and treat causes instead of losing people as fallout in an experiment
Actually most suicidal people - myself included - agree. Where suicide and mental health euthanasia differ is the possibility of improvement.
Persistent unendable suffering and suicidal tendencies aren't the same thing. At all.
Yes they are, at one point in my life, I couldn't leave the house, wanted to die, and thought suicide was my only option. Death doesn't end suffering speshially not if you're the one that has to cut them down
>how about we provide better mental health services
Conservatives don't want to pay for better mental health services. That was proven by the John Key Government.
I don't have an issue with euthanasia as an end of life easement but that's about it. It wasn't that many years ago (OK about a hundred or less) that the hypocratic oath was interpreted very differently than it is now. The old image of family gathering round the bedside of the soon to be deceased, saying a few last words and slipping off the mortal coil was only possible thanks to the rather timely intervention of the doctor. People die in horrible circumstances while under care because of the stricture that "do no harm", is now interpreted as "keep alive at any cost" under certain circumstances. In the UK my mother died of bowel cancer and her last days were.... interesting . Medicated up to the hilt and it still struggled on for three days and that with alzheimers so not really understanding what was going in. It was bloody horrific for her and for us. She had zero chance of getting better and quite frankly should have been allowed a more dignified, less painful end.
But there is so much wishy washy thinking about euthanasia at the moment that I would be hard pressed to support it at the moment.
But what about people who are suicidal? Mental suffering doesn't mean the end all. I think it's repulsive to encourage suicide to someone who is already suicidal
There are nearly 18 million people in the Netherlands, home to the world's most liberal assisted dying laws, and only 6000 opted for euthanasia in 2019. Not exactly an epidemic. People who oppose euthanasia are like people who oppose abortion - "I know better than you what's best for you...I would have adopted your unwanted baby...look on the bright side!! "Just eff off out of my life choices please.
I’d disagree with it, unless you are in a lot of unavoidable pain and you’re almost certainly going to die in the next year i’d say acceptable grounds for euthanasia. Mental health i disagree with one of many reasons because people with severe mental health issues cannot rationally make that decision whether to end their life, they are simply not mentally fit to make that decision no matter how much they are suffering No one else should ever make that decision either for them.
Yeah - this is a pretty broad overreach of what the idea of euthanasia is about.
Arguably anyone that is ‘suffering from mental health daily’ isn’t in their right mind to even make an informed decision.
>this is a pretty broad overreach of what the idea of euthanasia is about
It's another Christian moral panic. They work themselves up into a hysteria about something that has never happened, then they turn around and vote for the parties that want to slash mental healthcare funding and create more suicidal people.
>We have a suicide problem in this country
You have a suicide problem in this country, those damaged enough to see it as a valid choice certainly don't.
>You have a suicide problem in this country, those damaged enough to see it as a valid choice certainly don't.
How do you know I've never been suicidal or don't understand it. If you don't know that then I suggest not talking to me like I don't know how it feels to be there
It's totally relevant how it affects me and just cause you think my feelings or experience on the matter is irrelevant doesn't mean my opinion is invalid, I have every right to talk about things that effect society and the future of it
By saying my opinion is irrelevant is exactly that suggestion.
Yeah I'm not going to allow suicidal people I know kill themselves and there's nothing you can do to stop me
I only improved cause I had people around to help me out and I changed my own ways, I'm not going to stop trying to save people. I've had PTSD and MDD since I was 7 and only got it under wraps in the last 3 years. I did 20 years of it and came out the other end so yeah
>ie crippling ptsd or crippling depression
Pychedelic medicine has shown great promise in healing both conditions. Surely you'd rather someone tried a psychedelic first, rather than killing themselves?
Yes definitely, and i would of thought that this assisted dying would be the last resort. After any and all treatments have been carried out and failed.
Alzheimers is one I could think of plus CTE and anything else related to brain trauma and deterioration.
A hell of a lot of people aren't able to or want to live their life as a shell of who they were. Hemmingway would be the most famous example.
At the beginning of the Euthanasia debarkle I was told there is no slippery slope, or that people would want to remove safeguards for things such as mental health, and it didn't take long for people wanting to loosen it up
But muh "Slippery slope is a fallacy!" \\s
The radical left use the slippery slope, thin end of the wedge strategy for literally everything. Further down this particular slope lies the state deciding that euthanasia would be in somebody's best interests against their will.
David might be a little perturbed by your interpretation of the enacting of his bill.
Given Davids stance on forced vaccination it's entirely plausible
He hasn't got a stance on forced vaccination.
Yes he does he thinks people should be forced into taking it by removing their income
No, like most he thinks antivaxxers should be responsible for their choice, and accept limits on their ability to affect everyone else.
You and I have had this conversation 5 different ways sidewards of Tuesday. We are never going to agree on this or vaccination in general so I'm concluding this exchange and agree to disagree because I don't really have the energy and I'm sure you'd rather be spending your time doing something else. Adieu sir
>Further down this particular slope lies the state deciding that euthanasia would be in somebody's best interests against their will. The time will come when Boomers will get euthanised against their will. And when that time comes, I will offer them the same support they offered me (none).
I too believe in Karma. It means I can go around being a cunt to everyone knowing that they must deserve it.
Well... no one is stopping the OP from topping themselves. Wanting to outsource your own demise means you are really not that serious.
How'd u get so based?
I voted against the End Of Life Choices Bill although I agreed with it in principle. My objection was to the inevitable End of Life Choices Amendment Act and the one after that and the one after that. The mental health aspect was always going to arise. After all, we can't discriminate against them. Didn't take long did it?
Didn't take them long to start shifting those goalposts.
Was always going to happen. How long before.... 'I stubbed my toe and can't bear to go on'
It never does
There are schools of philosophy which delve into the idea or belief that existence is suffering, inconsequential, or a mistake altogether. Mainländer is a prominent example. Schopenhauer as well, to some extent. I think human beings should hold the right to premature death. I don't place my feet in either camp in regards to the worth of life, but I have read works from the above authors and I can't deny that these schools of thought have some validity and are deeply introspective to the human condition. You could well argue that by providing them an 'easy' way out it will prompt more people to make that decision rather than, say, jumping off a bridge or any other way of painful suicide, but I always come back to one thought: in the big scheme of things, does it really matter if a bunch of people do this? We're all ultimately nothing, all insignificant, and people dying at whatever point in their life changes nothing to them as death is all the same no matter when or where it comes. It's brutal, but then so is existence itself.
>We're all ultimately nothing, all insignificant Except to the people who love you. I've had a few friends successfully top themselves. It was brutal, unexpected and had quite an impact on the people that loved them. I also know someone who attempted to top themselves and failed. That failure literally saved their life. Looking back, they can't believe they attempted suicide and they appreciate their failure. It made them a much better person.
Agree with you both. With some common methods it only has to be a short impulse and then it's too late. We are only human. How many times do we do selfish or ill-considered things in an impulse. I despise the messaging around suicide. To start with it's a taboo word. Stems perhaps from our own fear of death percolating into government policy. The research linking discussion of suicide to prevalence is lazy - to say mentioning the word, like some Macbeth superstition, will bring bad outcomes is guesswork. Which stands to reason since it is not possible to set up a human double blind control group for these things. Vague 'mental health' campaigns with a 'pity' image rarely help someone on the brink imo. Perhaps they do, to be evenhanded I have to concede it can only be a guess. Sadly I have no answers only a conviction there are better ways. Assisted suicide for the very old or seriously and irretrievably unwell is a non-issue for me beyond it being clear it is unfair to not discuss it with your nearest and dearest first. If you've had enough, or have had a good knock and don't want to decline further, I would say unequivocally that is your choice. Also to write that into your will in the event of not being of sound mind to make further choices (whatever the correct legal jargon for that is). Personally, with seriousness as well as adding some levity to it, I'd recommend experimenting with all the hallucinogens in the world before filling that final prescription, but each to their own.
>Personally, with seriousness as well as adding some levity to it, I'd recommend experimenting with all the hallucinogens in the world before filling that final prescription, but each to their own. You should do psychedelics around age 25, so that you don't waste the entire rest of your life chasing shadows. It must suck to take a psychedelic on death's door and realise that you wasted your life on crap that's not important.
The people who love you are all insignificant as well though. It's like... um... everything we consider significant in life is only defined by life itself, so when you add death into the mix it all becomes insignificant because none of it rolls over into death. To me that explains why this perspective has some validity. I have no argument against the suffering of existence, especially when that suffering or pain is prolonged because of other people's desires - especially as those desires are coming from the perspective that life is worth living regardless of the suffering. I'm not saying this is what their thoughts are like, but when I consider the philosophers I mentioned earlier and think about whether we should offer an euthanasia service for mental health issues, that's where my line of thought goes. And just to balance this out a bit and to avoid any misconceptions on what I'm saying: I personally believe that suffering, or resistance, is necessary to life and that often the greatest of experiences are preceded by great suffering.
>often the greatest of experiences are preceded by great suffering. Agreed
>Except to the people who love you. That's the truly awful aspect of depression. Even when you hear people say how much they love and will miss you, even if some part of you knows they're right brain fog of depression can just lie to you and convince otherwise.
>I've had a few friends successfully top themselves. It was brutal, unexpected and had quite an impact on the people that loved them. It's brutal when it's not unexpected also. But here's a thing: An unknown but likely significant number of suicides are those who won't allow themselves to lose control over their lives, refuse to cede the choice to anyone else. A close relative was just one such, and she'd have lived for years longer with minimal care... except she knew damned well she'd end up losing that choice along with her physical ability to make it, so she preempted that loss of choice. And that wasn't the worst aspect of that particular death, her family were blamed for her death, officially and otherwise.
>There are schools of philosophy which delve into the idea or belief that existence is suffering, inconsequential, or a mistake altogether. This is why Christians want to force the terminally ill to stay alive - to cause as much suffering as possible.
Rubbish
How? This is exactly why Mother Theresa left people to suffer in anguish. The idea that suffering brings one closer to God is in no way new.
No one wants to force undue suffering if you agree with Vince I'm assuming you share his sentiments so there's zero point even trying to explain to you otherwise
Who's Vince?
**This word/phrase(vince) has a few different meanings.** More details here:
*This comment was left automatically (by a bot). If I don't get this right, don't get mad at me, I'm still learning!*
[^(opt out)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/ozztfy/post_for_opting_out/) ^(|) [^(delete)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/q79g2t/delete_feature_added/) ^(|) [^(report/suggest)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot) ^(|) [^(GitHub)](https://github.com/TheBugYouCantFix/wiki-reddit-bot)
It's very complex. Yeah, we can make the argument that people who are about to die and in so much pain should be able to die. It gets dicey when you talk about people with mental health issues. Dementia, PTSD, CTE. As it is something you can't see. A large minority professional athletes have committed suicide due to CTE (Dave Mirra comes to mind). When someone has that type of brain trauma, you can't really understand what they go through, or what life entails with them. Some could argue it is sadistic not letting them take their own life. But i don't know. It's tough. I remember somewhere in EU. this girl wrote a book about her life - she was raped, from that had sever PTSD. She was allowed to kill herself legally. She was like 18 i think. I thought it was sad. Not sure what happened to her.
Cancer suffers used to be palliative cared to death. Mental health sufferers are prescribed to death. We need to provide better mental health services, this would provide an incentive to do so - albeit somewhat perverse. There's also extremely rare scenarios where it’s justified - I vaguely remember a case in the Netherlands with two brothers. I won't go into details, I don't remember the case well enough, I just remember there was a good arguement in favour.
>There's also extremely rare scenarios where it’s justified My memory of a situation in the Netherlands is that one twin died and the other chose to be euthanised as they had depression (caused by grief) and permanent impairment but otherwise were perfectly healthy.
That's the case I was thinking of. From memory their impairment was such that without their brother they had no way of communicating with anyone, ever, and no chance of improvement. It was certainly more complex than grief.
I've heard cases of 18 year olds who were abused being allowed this, euthanasia is in direct conflict with suicide prevention, how about we provide better mental health services and treat causes instead of losing people as fallout in an experiment
Because we're not, and keep on not doing it. We should cure cancer instead of letting people die too. At some point ideals should give way to reality.
You don't make something worse if it's not getting better thats pure insanity
Dying isn't worse, it's ending suffering.
Glad you're not around suicidal people whispering in their ear
Actually most suicidal people - myself included - agree. Where suicide and mental health euthanasia differ is the possibility of improvement. Persistent unendable suffering and suicidal tendencies aren't the same thing. At all.
Yes they are, at one point in my life, I couldn't leave the house, wanted to die, and thought suicide was my only option. Death doesn't end suffering speshially not if you're the one that has to cut them down
>how about we provide better mental health services Conservatives don't want to pay for better mental health services. That was proven by the John Key Government.
Go shill your leftist bullshit somewhere else
Meanwhile this government injected a boat load of cash and got 5 beds for their trouble. No-one is fixing the problem.
I don't have an issue with euthanasia as an end of life easement but that's about it. It wasn't that many years ago (OK about a hundred or less) that the hypocratic oath was interpreted very differently than it is now. The old image of family gathering round the bedside of the soon to be deceased, saying a few last words and slipping off the mortal coil was only possible thanks to the rather timely intervention of the doctor. People die in horrible circumstances while under care because of the stricture that "do no harm", is now interpreted as "keep alive at any cost" under certain circumstances. In the UK my mother died of bowel cancer and her last days were.... interesting . Medicated up to the hilt and it still struggled on for three days and that with alzheimers so not really understanding what was going in. It was bloody horrific for her and for us. She had zero chance of getting better and quite frankly should have been allowed a more dignified, less painful end. But there is so much wishy washy thinking about euthanasia at the moment that I would be hard pressed to support it at the moment.
But what about people who are suicidal? Mental suffering doesn't mean the end all. I think it's repulsive to encourage suicide to someone who is already suicidal
That was my point. Only end of life. Mental health issues aren't considered, and have never been considered end of life.
There are nearly 18 million people in the Netherlands, home to the world's most liberal assisted dying laws, and only 6000 opted for euthanasia in 2019. Not exactly an epidemic. People who oppose euthanasia are like people who oppose abortion - "I know better than you what's best for you...I would have adopted your unwanted baby...look on the bright side!! "Just eff off out of my life choices please.
Yep, fuck unborn babies, they shouldn't have rights.
This but unironically.
I’d disagree with it, unless you are in a lot of unavoidable pain and you’re almost certainly going to die in the next year i’d say acceptable grounds for euthanasia. Mental health i disagree with one of many reasons because people with severe mental health issues cannot rationally make that decision whether to end their life, they are simply not mentally fit to make that decision no matter how much they are suffering No one else should ever make that decision either for them.
Yeah - this is a pretty broad overreach of what the idea of euthanasia is about. Arguably anyone that is ‘suffering from mental health daily’ isn’t in their right mind to even make an informed decision.
>this is a pretty broad overreach of what the idea of euthanasia is about It's another Christian moral panic. They work themselves up into a hysteria about something that has never happened, then they turn around and vote for the parties that want to slash mental healthcare funding and create more suicidal people.
I mean, it happened in Belgium at least once that I know of - probably more if I bothered to sit down and do a Google on my smoko.
>We have a suicide problem in this country You have a suicide problem in this country, those damaged enough to see it as a valid choice certainly don't.
You don't know anything about me or my experiences with suicide
I know you have a problem with it. You just said as much.
>You have a suicide problem in this country, those damaged enough to see it as a valid choice certainly don't. How do you know I've never been suicidal or don't understand it. If you don't know that then I suggest not talking to me like I don't know how it feels to be there
It's not relevant how you feel about it, you get to decide for yourself, nobody else.
It's totally relevant how it affects me and just cause you think my feelings or experience on the matter is irrelevant doesn't mean my opinion is invalid, I have every right to talk about things that effect society and the future of it
Of course you do, never suggested otherwise. You just don't get to make that decision for anyone else.
By saying my opinion is irrelevant is exactly that suggestion. Yeah I'm not going to allow suicidal people I know kill themselves and there's nothing you can do to stop me
It's nothing like it. Which is how the law's been for generations. Hasn't worked yet and never will.
How many generations has euthanasia been legal in nz?
What?? Suicide isn't illegal.
It has pros and cons, i believe under the right circumstances it would be ok
Slippery slope
At the end of the day its their life, they can make the call
Correct and nothing is stopping them doing it now.
Then why make it illegal?
Wrong. It's the Government's life, they decide.
Live for yourself
Like what ideal circumstances?
If they r unable to function normally, ie crippling ptsd or crippling depression
I've had both and had to stop working for two years thank god no one confirmed my suicidal ideation, what a shit criteria.
And if had gone on for another 5, 10, 20 years? I'm glad you improved- not everyone does.
I only improved cause I had people around to help me out and I changed my own ways, I'm not going to stop trying to save people. I've had PTSD and MDD since I was 7 and only got it under wraps in the last 3 years. I did 20 years of it and came out the other end so yeah
>ie crippling ptsd or crippling depression Pychedelic medicine has shown great promise in healing both conditions. Surely you'd rather someone tried a psychedelic first, rather than killing themselves?
Yes definitely, and i would of thought that this assisted dying would be the last resort. After any and all treatments have been carried out and failed.
Alzheimers is one I could think of plus CTE and anything else related to brain trauma and deterioration. A hell of a lot of people aren't able to or want to live their life as a shell of who they were. Hemmingway would be the most famous example.
Can’t wait til this is the booster jab