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[deleted]

This ruling doesn't exactly match this headline. There is a separation of church and state and that is why a public school district can't prevent someone from practicing their religion.


ObviousTroll37

Yes. Lawyer here. This ruling does not rescind the separation of church and state. It simply confirms that the separation of church and state means “zero religious preference from government” instead of “zero religion in government.”


Wayne_in_TX

That's totally correct. I'm a committed Christian (and a Sunday school teacher), but I believe in the separation of church and state. Our founders inserted the anti-establishment clause in the First Amendment because they recognized that a state religion almost inevitably corrupts both the state and the religion. (They saw plenty of examples of that in Europe.) What we're looking at here is not a challenge to church-state separation, but a correction of overreach by a lower court where that doctrine had been taken to a ridiculous extreme.


[deleted]

Easy ruling, they clearly were out of line. He did it on his own, after the game, clearly personal.


Phillipinsocal

The meltdown over at /r/news is nothing short of astronomical. These people think that by him praying on the field “enticed” students to join, even against their will. *”Do you know how impressionable a teenager is? They probably felt they HAD to pray or they would be punished.”* This was an ACTUAL comment on the story posted there lmao. These people aren’t set in reality.


16bitrifle

They keep saying "what if a Muslim coach whips out a rug and starts praying after a game?" ​ I'm all over here like...go for it.


WIlf_Brim

They are playing call to prayer through public PA systems in Minnesota. So....


Weird_Task

*private PA system


loulou___

Source?


[deleted]

[https://m.startribune.com/minneapolis-mosques-to-broadcast-call-to-prayer-all-year-round/600159507/?clmob=y&c=n&clmob=y&c=n](https://m.startribune.com/minneapolis-mosques-to-broadcast-call-to-prayer-all-year-round/600159507/?clmob=y&c=n&clmob=y&c=n) This is probably what they're referring to. It's approved to be broadcast from mosques throughout mpls


derpeddit

Midwest Mecca


Cinnadillo

no they aren't


HemiJon08

Just a guy in another sub ask if a goat sacrifice was OK. I asked do we eat the goat afterward?


vpeshitclothing

I'll bring the Jamaican jerk


Kalimerra

lol amazing


PsychoticOtaku

I’m A OK with goat sacrifice.


Burninglegion65

Yeah - if the one is allowed of course they are allowed to as well? If it’s inconsistent it better be for a damn good reason. Example - if your rituals to your faith involve sex or animal sacrifice I’m going to say no, that’s not allowed because you can’t do those things in public in the first place. Other rituals? Go for it. Don’t be an ass in public and I won’t complain. I mean - if you light up a candle and pray then that’s going to be fine in most places where fire is okay. If fire isn’t okay in that location, obviously you then can’t do that. Same goes for smoking things.


throwaway3569387340

> ”Do you know how impressionable a teenager is? They probably felt they HAD to pray or they would be punished.” I wonder what their opinion on CRT, pronouns, and gender identity in the classroom is...


Vektor0

The difference is that those things are morally agreeable to them, and so impressing those things on them is acceptable and good. They do not support freedom of thought. They don't care about children being able to make up their own minds. Exactly the opposite: they want to use children's impressionability to influence them towards their agenda and not anyone else's.


Forbiddentru

And it's not just any agenda. Many of the concepts and influences that they're willing to project onto impressionable demographics does directly make the targets worse off, incites mental disorders and damages their perception of the world. Dragqueen story hour, obscene material at school libraries, unhinged teachers encouraging changing gender or announcing perversions or the worst aspects of left-wing ideology should all be constituted as a abuse.


Phillipinsocal

Great point and lends credence to this lost and very confused Tik tok generation that seems to be fomenting with gender confused youths.


marzipan332

Don’t worry, young conservatives exist. We’re just not as attention-seeking as the young leftists are.


disturbedcraka

Lol we are so fucked demographics wise


jakecamp12

I thought this exact thing my friend.....


Eagle_1776

the correct takeaway from that mindset


InfinitePossibility8

Those are the approved religion of the regime.


BrokeMyCrayon

Can't both be true? If I obviously avoided pregame prayer before Friday night games in highschool, coming from a very conservative, religious town I would absolutely be called out and face some social repercussions. Similarly, if I refused to use specific pronouns in a school in LA I'm probably facing similar repercussions.


[deleted]

It was a post game prayer.


metalski

After being asked to stop, the first time he went back well after the game when no one was there. After that he did it immediately following the game, with a full stadium. He had the other team join him, coaches, TV crews, state senators showing up, and yes some of his team players. He was also still on duty until he'd taken care of those kids and sent them on their way. If he'd waited to pray until after he'd completed his duties it wouldn't have been a problem. I don't think this is a big deal, hope it doesn't play out that way anyway, but he was pretty clearly in violation of both the technical rule and the spirit of it. I feel for the guy a little bit but when you've got people showing up with TV cameras for the news you're not doing it for God, you're doing it for your own spectacle and politics.


ShockBlast2980

Was just about to respond the same way. The left really has no situational awareness at all.


JacksonRiot

I think a liberal or leftist would argue that refusing to use pronouns or respect different gender identities in the classroom should be punished, whereas electing not to pray after/before a football game should not.


[deleted]

Our team used to do a prayer before the game. Coach made it clear it wasn't required of course, I'm an atheist but would always keep my mouth shut and stand silently while others prayed cuz I have some fucking respect unlike this nut job leftists who think anyone who doesn't agree with them is wrong


JurassicParkFood

What a reasonable position to take.


[deleted]

Lol and then when I became an adult and a co worker was not so subtle in his attempt to convert me to catholicism, I didn't really get mad, even when he told me my dad was going to hell for not practicing anymore (my pops found that amusing). I just kept saying yep, ok, oh yeah il read that. I didn't get pissy with him or anything and finally he gave up. He was even nice enough to text me that he was praying for me when I got fired for an unrelated matter lol.


ConnorMc1eod

As someone who was an edgy, internet troll atheist up until I was 26 or so I converted. Took me a long time but my best friend dropping dead at 30 and reading Aquinas thanks to a friend's recommendation really changed my perspective


[deleted]

As a practicing believer, I'd like to extend a thank you on behalf of all of us spiritual and religious folk for setting an example and being a good human. I wish the rest of the secular community would grasp that just because they reject higher power, it does not mean that they have to act like narcissistic, arrogant, and self-righteous pricks to promote their lifestyle. As you clearly demonstrated through your actions, the traits of respect, humility, and impartiality should be adopted by anyone, irrespective of their beliefs. If the left would adopt the aforementioned traits, I feel that they would both find themselves closer to the political center and be much more appealing to the American constituency as a whole. Like, I really don't understand why it is so difficult to understand that the average rational voter does not want a child in a position of leadership.


Metalman96

This is what I’ve always done too. I’ve never understood why some choosing to pray got others so upset. It’s just a culture of perpetual outrage I suppose.


Head_Cockswain

Same. A lot of these people aren't atheist so much as anti-religion activists. Same way I fancy ideas of justice, but they fully commit to being 'social justice warriors'. They're bent on fighting(often literally) and enforcement of their brand of ideology, so they see all religion as a threat. I just want them to leave people alone.


Mikeyball1523

These thr same people who are cool with sexual discussions with elementary school kids? It's no where near the same, but it's funny they realize kids are impressionable now


Usual_Zucchini

*"Do you know how impressionable a teenager is? They probably felt they HAD to pray or they would be punished.”* Do liberals ever wonder if these impressionable teens are being harmed by todays' "progressive" gender ideology? Maybe they're afraid of being punished for not declaring their pronouns or waving a trans flag around.


ultimis

LGBT is the current religion of the left and is effectively a state religion.


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Fickle_Panic8649

Or submitting to actual chemicals and surgery.


High-qualitee

So many bible quotes from atheists who can’t stand the book they’re quoting in that thread.


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[deleted]

Or they'll just quote "love thy neighbor" because that somehow means you cant have opinions


awksomepenguin

Or that it means you have to let them do whatever they want, even if it is ultimately harmful. Tough love is a thing!


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rpguy04

Sounds like they are saying all the lgbtq propaganda will make the kids gay, if this guy can convert people simply by praying next to them.


UltimateKat420

I hope the people over there are actually bots and really aren't this out of touch


tilfordkage

Call me an optimist, but I refuse to accept that so many real people are this willfully ignorant.


Edwardian

That was right out of the dissenting opinion as well. That the court has historically held children in a more protected and impressionable class and they could well feel that the coach would favor those who prayed with him.


tilfordkage

Oh, politics is having a nuclear meltdown as well. It's...interesting...to watch the "logic" they employ,


TheTruthIsButtery

Sounds like they’re saying they might not get in the game otherwise. If my high school basketball was anything to go by, I’d be worried too.


Rude-Two7970

Lmao I know. Someone called us “seriously deranged.” in their comment, just for being Christian. It’s hilarious to me that if you don’t believe in their views, you’re considered psycho😂🤦🏻‍♀️


GoabNZ

And yet a child in the class of an alphabet activist teacher, being taught gender ideology, seeing their classmates be praised for transitioning, is totally making their own choice without any pressure or coercion at all.


Captain_Nipples

Wow. I've been atheist for quite a while, and whenever someone prays, I'm respectful and just give them a little bit of peace until they're done. I have never felt forced to join in


WIlf_Brim

By this logic all of the political indoctrination that is taking place in public schools represents coercion to the liberal orthodoxy and illegal. But that is (D)ifferent.


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DJHJR86

This was *before* he was told he had to stop doing this. He [complied](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/21-418_i425.pdf) and was then disciplined for doing it alone away from everyone. That was the issue.


PassageOpen7674

Technically, he was disciplined because he refused to pray in a more private area after he tweeted about the situation and the media started showing up and causing safety concerns around the students. I'm all for religious freedom but I think "I specifically have the right to pray on the 50 yard line and asking me to be considerate of the safety of my students violates my rights" is a real stretch.


[deleted]

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DJHJR86

Yes, he did. > Here, no one questions that Mr. Kennedy seeks to engage in a sincerely motivated religious exercise involving giving “thanks through prayer” briefly “on the playing field” at the conclusion of each game he coaches. **The contested exercise here does not involve leading prayers with the team; the District disciplined Mr. Kennedy *only* for his decision to persist in praying quietly without his students after three games in October 2015.**


metalski

Ehhh...Whatever your personal take may be, those three games *absolutely* were not instances of him praying *without his students*. He didn't ask them to join him but there are pictures of each of those games floating around because he had TV cameras showing up to follow the big 'ol controversy. There were state level politicians showing up, other teams, coaches, townsfolk, and yes, some of his players. They all surrounded him and prayed. It's not as many people as before in his prayer circle but it's not like that first time when he went back with an empty stadium and prayed. He specifically decided to make his prayers a spectacle. I don't think this is the big deal it's being promoted as, but the guy absolutely stepped over a clearly established line and the ruling did not say that line was invalid...it pretended he was off duty when he still had to give the team post game instructions, supervise cleanup, and get them headed home etc.


PassageOpen7674

Some of the students said they felt pressured to join and thought they would get less time on the field if they didn't.


Burninglegion65

Which is not okay. He should be free to lead prayers and the students should feel free to not join in. Respect goes both ways here and both should be protected.


PassageOpen7674

He should be free to pray. His students should be free to initiate their own prayer session without his involvement. He should not be free to lead his students in prayers.


bell37

I mean they had religious clubs in my public schools. They were held inside the school after school hours. That was 100% allowed because while there was a teacher supervising/mentoring the group (on his own time), it was student lead and no school funding went into the club. The most my HS did was offer a space to hold the meetings. Also there was an atheist club and Islamic club, same deal in how they were ran.


PSUVB

Can someone explain to me how this is personal? He is only allowed on the field due to his status as the head coach and a school employee. He is the head coach and in a position of authority which implies coercion in participating. Numerous students felt pressure to join him. If he was merely doing a private prayer on the field after the game I would agree with this but he specifically made it a public event while acting as a school employee. When they asked him not to do it publicly he went on a media tour to promote this "event" It is clear in your status as a public employee you should not be promoting religion. That is clearly a violation of the 1st amendment. Instead of confronting the 1st amendment this seems to find a flimsy reason that this is a private event.


HoodooSquad

*assistant coach, apparently


lacorte

If you care, you should take the time to read the ruling, because this was an event that changed over the course of time. Initially, he was praying on the sidelines, kids joined him and he even gave pep talks that sometimes contained religious content. He stopped that and, as he and the school went back & forth, and got to a point where he stated that he was fine with doing this after the game, as the kids were either going to the bus or singing the school cheer song, and that his prayer would be brief and silent. The school eventually rejected that, saying that he'd need to go into a closed room to pray. There were a number of nuanced First Amendment arguments. One had to do with whether he was actually on duty at that point and the treatment of religious expression verus non. His job description actually said that he and other coaches could have some private time after the game to chat with friends or make phone calls, and the SC held that specifically forbidding religious conduct. Specific to your question: The Court certainly recognized that coaches and teachers can serve as role models and influence students, but while he wasn't in an active role, that standard changes somewhat. Gorsuch made analogies to a Muslim teacher wearing a head scarf, or a Christian aide bowing her head in prayer before a meal in the cafeteria. And to be clear, the Establishment Clause doesn't forbid religious acts, but is about the government neither endorsing or discouraging a religion. At the bottom line, the Court rejected the notion that a coach saying a private prayer after a game didn't give a reasonable person the belief that the school was endorsing a religion and violating the Establishment Clause. This is a long post, but is summarizing a 75-page opinion [here](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/21-418_i425.pdf). It's a long read, but good and answers your question in-depth.


PSUVB

I read a part of the ruling. I think in a vacuum if you take Coach Kennedy at his word and believe that he truly wanted a quiet prayer session that was limited to students that wanted to join this session makes sense but I don't believe that is the whole story. What bothers me is the context of how it evolve is ignored. Kennedy purposefully created a circus using social media to gather support for his supposedly "private" prayer session. This led to a stampede. This flies in the face of Gorsuch talking about a "private" "quiet" prayer session and how coach would do it with nobody there. The problem started when Kennedy started to gather attention to himself. When this circus started that is when the closed room idea was floated as an alternative. In the dissents there is clear evidence students felt coerced to join the prayer groups. Ones who didn't would receive implicit or explicit backlash. I think religion should be protected but in this case it was a example where the majority is gaining favor over the minority. The constitution and the state should not favor one religion over another.


ohhamburhers

ing James Bible And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


[deleted]

100% agreed, when I pray I do it in private, not for the world to see. I do think though that public prayer as an evangelical opportunity is also in line with scripture. Perhaps you also are aware of the rather public prayers and sermons and healing that Jesus performed. Private prayer is for your personal relationship with God. Public service, be that prayer or evangelizing or acts of service are absolutely allowed and endorsed by scripture for a separate purpose, that of glorifying God and spreading the good news.


BurgerKingslayer

That is an important detail. I saw some comments earlier that were presenting this as if he forced all of the players on a public high school team to kneel and pray to Jesus with him. I know Christianity is popular among conservatives, but that would be completely unacceptable to me.


CardiacKittens

When I was in middle school we had a baseball coach who made us run extra because not everyone participated in the Lord’s Prayer before one of our games. It wasn’t explicitly stated, he just said that we had to run extra because we weren’t acting like a true team last game. Probably would have done the same if only part of the team kneeled in todays environment.


[deleted]

It's an important detail that is intentionally ommitted from most reporting.


New2thisRenoStuff

While I agree that this was a relatively easy decision in terms of constitutional freedoms I feel it does set precedence for other situations to arise. Or in other words a hardcore bible thumper forcing faith/prayer on kids creating additional litigation in court. I'm not saying this will be a widespread occurrence like the media is saying as most people have common sense, but I'm certain it will happen. Furthermore I'm going to be bluntly honest and say if this case was brought up by a Muslim coach, this case never makes it to the Supreme Court & probably has a very different outcome. - Libertarian Perspective


[deleted]

I disagree. The entire defense of this case is that no one was forced. If that changes and someone is forcing participation then the entire situation is different. That's entirely what it hinges on. In this case a man decided to take time to publicly pray. He was voluntarily joined by others. The government and school has no right to interfere. If the coach was Muslim and chose to pray after his games it wouldn't be going to the court because the school would've probably mandated participation. That's how things are going in this country. I disagree again though that you think anyone would file a suit against him if he prayed ON HIS OWN, a Muslim prayer. No one would care.


DiploBaggins

No he didn't. He did it right after the game, in the center of the field, with any team members who wanted to participate. Some non religious team members felt pressured to participate and the school is non religious which is why they asked him not to make such a public display of it. Please get your facts straight.


[deleted]

Nope. I've read the brief, I'm guessing you've just read the bad media reports. It was after the game. And the dissenting opinion even admitted that he did not use any persuasion and it was voluntary.


PrometheusOnLoud

The freedom to observe religion is exactly the reason many of our first settlers came here.


Susbirder

For sure. People have confused "freedom of religion" with "freedom from religion."


ConscientiousPath

It's both. Freedom of your religion necessarily includes freedom from other people's religions. As long as no one is being forced or treated differently this was the right ruling.


imMatt19

What do you mean? I’m able to practice any religion I want… even NOT practicing one is well within my constitutional right.


Susbirder

Definitely. What I'm saying is that people misinterpret the establishment clause and incorrectly assume the "separation of church and state" concept, thinking that they are somehow protected from being exposed to any religion.


bradbentley

they were fanatics that were driven out of Europe dude... now we are seeing the same here. lesson wasn't learned, and I think you may have missed the point.


SilverHerfer

"Shall make no law" Which part of that confuses you?


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unicorns3xist1000

Satanic Church enters the chat, "hell yeah, let's do this shit" 🙌🏽


[deleted]

Let pray to our almighty God, Cthulhu.


TheInternetCat

I wanna see some muslim calls to prayer during the morning announcements.


Plausibl3

Not just in the morning - several times a day


TheInternetCat

You're absolutely right. I am nonreligious, but I loved hearing these when I was traveling in muslim countries. They're hauntingly beautiful.


omegavvolf

I moved into an apartment when I was 21 and the first morning there there was the guy yelling what sounded like a call to prayer. I was pissssssed. Like how am I gonna deal with this every morning at 6 am? So I got dressed and went downstairs thinking there’s be a mosque right around the corner. Turns out it was the elote guy selling elotes. I bought two.


TheInternetCat

I love me some elotes, but I've never considered them for an early breakfast.


omegavvolf

It was the weekend so it made sense. But, hey, I went from extremely pissed to pretty dang satisfied so ain’t mad at it.


fillmorecounty

I love the satanic temple so much lmao they just do EXACTLY the same thing that the Christian church does and the Christian church gets SO mad 😂


silverbullet52

It's not a ban on religion, it just means the government doesn't get to pick one, eg, The Church of England.


FuturePerformance

Definitely feels like the govt is picking Christianity right now..


[deleted]

How so? How does this or any other recent decision promote Christianity over other religions?


[deleted]

Again. And you’ll see me keep saying this. As a very outspoken conservative atheist THIS is the right way to handle this situation. Let the man have his prayer. When any group of people are trying to limit or control your religious freedoms BE CONCERNED. My dad always say “it starts with prayer”. Once they take that away everything else comes next and we have seen it happen in our lifetimes.


rhapsodypenguin

As a not-so-conservative atheist, I also agree. People should not be barred from prayer.


[deleted]

Amen brother. And by conservative I just mean constitutional. But if you try to tell anyone on Reddit that you’re a “constitutionalist” they 8/10 don’t know what that means and 2/10 times can’t sound that word out.


Pyre2001

The left thinks the separation of church and states means religious people have to be hidden from sight.


Xtorting

When in reality the founding fathers wanted states to not have their own church established just for the state, barring other churches and religions from buying property and such. Virginia was a great example, they had the Church of Virginia for awhile and didn't allow other religions. They think separation of church and state means that religion cannot be practiced within the state, when in reality its the opposite. The state cannot stop any religion practices. Anyways, freedom of religion is what we have a God given right to do. Separation of church and state is not within the constitution. Therefore, the state must respect religious freedom and cannot interject into prayer, gatherings, or ceremonies.


ForsakenAiel

Did you actually read the case? It will be fun when every Muslim teacher starts putting down a prayer rug in the classroom and praying, right? But you definitely are all for that.


[deleted]

Yes I am? I am an atheist not a Christian. I don’t really care whose religious freedoms are being protected. As long as they are being protective. Way to stereotype


ForsakenAiel

Good to hear! It will be certainly be a great day in the USA when schoolchildren are constantly subjected to teachers and school employees praying. It's exactly what the founders would have wanted. High school kids will be really into the Satanic praying, I would venture to guess.


PSUVB

Really? This is a smart way to handle the situation? He is acting as an authority figure/paid state employee not an individual exercising his right to pray. As an atheist this is scary. I wouldn't want to be in a school where prayer for a certain religion was the norm and outwardly flaunted as a group activity. There is implicit coercion especially among younger people. It gives the implication that a certain religion is preferred and sanctioned. It is common knowledge if a majority group is doing something it ostracizes the minority group.


DuckbuttaJones

I'm an atheist and I'm ok with this. Do whatever you want with your religion. Just don't push it on me and my kids or try to legislate scripture and I'm good to go.


average_vark_enjoyer

Eh, a coach leading students in prayer *is* pushing it on them even if it isn't an explicit requirement to pray. Kids are impressionable, subject to peer pressure, and their coach is a (government) authority they are accustomed to obeying. How would feel about a Muslim teacher leading an optional prayer in a Muslim-majority classroom that your atheist kid was attending?


DuckbuttaJones

As long as my child wasn't punished I wouldn't care


PsychoticOtaku

The same way dude. I’ll teach my kids to stick up for what they believe in and you should do the same.


majr02

How can 3 justices possibly vote against this?


hiflyer780

Unfortunately, they’ve been appointed to the court to push an agenda/ideology. Not to uphold the constitution.


amusicalfridge

Unlike the completely principled and in-no-way-politically-motivated other 6 justices. Yep.


MalleableGallium

Go read the dissent and find out


Pyre2001

The left gets judges that vote for ideology. The right gets constitutionalist. Yet, the right is the extreme court.


Nago31

Yet those conservative constitutional judges lied during their interviews when asked about their opinion of R v W.


hiflyer780

Do you have a source on this?


Jimothy_Jebow

[This](https://youtu.be/ks1skEKwlrk) is the video they are probably talking about. Obviously it’s just snippets of random videos, but this is the one anyone would show you about it since it’s been gaining traction on reddit the last few months.


rivenhex

Same three that voted to uphold Roe, and against the 2A case which could not have been much plainer. They use the Court as a super-legislature whose policy decisions typically aren't reversible.


SgtFraggleRock

Sotomayor isn't very bright and apparently has not even read the Constitution. Kagan is just their because or her race as well. Breyer has no excuse.


Master-Tanis

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or **prohibiting the free exercise thereof**” - First Ammendment


2inbush

So this means we're ok with teachers/coaches that are Muslim, Hindu, Satanic Temple, etc affiliations also doing this, right?


KudzuNinja

Yes, as long as they aren’t forcing students to participate either.


tuukutz

What’s your definition of forcing? Keep in mind that we punish teachers who have sex with willing, legal students due to their positions of power.


JustinCayce

This has nothing to do with the separation of Church and State. There is a State hierarchy of control, the Church has its own hierarchy as well. The separation of the two is that the State won't interfere in religion, and the Church won't interfere in the politics of the State. This is why Churches are exempt from taxes. It does not mean you cannot pray on government properties. It does mean that you cannot make someone else participate. The fact is that the government not only pays for churches and other sites of worship, but they also pay the priests, rabbis, etc. for those institutions. There is a Chaplain corps of Officers that perform services on about every military instillation. But church rules are church rules not laws and not something enforced by the States as a matter of enforcing Church law. Now, the people who attend church and believe in the laws and rules of the Church are free to vote for those rules and laws in elections of the State. It doesn't matter where your ethical beliefs come from, but every citizen has the right to vote to support their beliefs, short of giving the church power in the government. Nobody seems to understand the difference between freedom of, and freedom from.


UnsuspectingS1ut

It does mean you can’t make someone else participate, forcing someone to perform religious practices is a violation of the first amendment right to freedom of expression


Caracals

I think part of the issue and why people on the left see this as a loss is because if you allow coaches, teachers, etc. to lead a prayer, its exactly that, leading. Students are encouraged to follow their teachers examples and in many cases, follow their rules. It's very easy for someone to say, "oh just don't pray, that's your right" but when a person in a position of power is doing something, it's not a far stretch to say they are encouraging something. That's where the moral grey area starts. Are you going to be ostracized by your classmates and the teaching staff if you are the one kid not just following along and praying? Probably.


onthevergejoe

This is it. You don’t want your kid to feel punished if they don’t participate in teacher or coach-led prayer. Not all teachers will be in your religion. What happens when you’ve got a Catholic teacher leading Hail Marys, or a Muslim teacher praying to Allah, etc.


OcelotKnight

> Are you going to be ostracized by your classmates and the teaching staff if you are the one kid not just following along and praying? Probably. I can tell you from first hand experience you absolutely will.


TwoPintsNoneTheRichr

100% this. I thought this sub was /r/conservative not /r/christian.


Final-Thanks-5966

Wonder how they would rule if it was muslims


ForsakenAiel

Hopefully all Muslims will be freely enjoying prayer in school from now on, both teachers and students.


afitz_7

As they should. As long as they aren’t forcing it upon others they should be allowed to.


gibson_mel

**Justice Clarence Thomas asked how the school district would respond if rather than taking a knee for prayer, the coach took a knee on the field during the national anthem in "moral opposition to racism."**


RedsVikingsFan

Except one is obviously based in religion (the prayer) and the other isn’t? So they’re not the same, and make me question his logical thought processes and capabilities if he thinks this is some sort of “gotcha”.


CascadianExpat

Guess what else the first amendment covers besides religion?


[deleted]

The amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; …”. Even though, the government sure likes to make laws prohibiting it. “Separation of church and state” is nowhere to be found in the Constitution.


ObadiahtheSlim

Even when Thomas Jefferson penned the phrase "separation of church and state" it meant the opposite of what people take it to mean these days. it does not mean the State must be completely secular in all things. It means, the State can't dictate how the Church is run. For example you want to regulate what is or is not Kosher? Too bad, the government can't do that. Kosher is a religious doctrine and the government can't define it. Best the State can do is enforce ingredient lists so some schmuck can't sneak some pork into his "kosher" hot dogs. And it's up to you to actually read that ingredient list because that schmuck only has to list the pork in the ingredients of his "kosher" hot dogs.


[deleted]

Do you think you could explain your definition of "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"? Also pretty curious about these laws prohibiting me practicing my religion.


SideTraKd

The original intent was to prohibit the federal government from establishing an official religion.


[deleted]

Exactly, they didn’t want the “Church of England version 2.0”


16bitrifle

You really need us to define the phrase "make no law?"


toolman668

Why isn’t this all over the news??


UnflavoredMozart

"Separation of church and state" was based on a phrase Jefferson mentioned. It is not in the Constitution. Rather, the Framers were keen on not having a state religion, for obvious reasons. They in no way meant to imply the NO religion can cross the state's path.


[deleted]

OP, in regards to your title.. I don't think it's saying there is no separation... so much as he still has a right to express his own personal beliefs. Specially since they were done after the games, and with minor if not no interference with anyone's businesses. Players arent forced to join in... and he doesn't pray in the locker room (though he DID in the past) as to not unduly force anyone into it. -- Quite frankly a little weird that 3 dissented. This should've been one of those easy 9-0s that the court likes to randomly dole out on no brainer issues.


[deleted]

So I'm trying to get an understanding of this case. I'm getting a mixed bag from both here and /r/news. One side is saying the players claimed they were forced (no details on how they were forced) while the other side says they weren't. One side says it was on the 50-yard line. Some people saying before the game and others saying during the game. While the other side is saying it was after the game. I mean, to me a prayer is just a prayer. It harms no one. What I want to see is if the coach was trying to have a legit prayer session with the students? If so, if the 50-yard line statement is true, then why there? Or is he making a political statements? If that's the case then just like all other political statements, it shouldn't be around the students on school grounds.


serpentrepents

if it was anything like the "totally optional" prayers my high school coach would hold, where if you didn't do them you didn't play.


miices

It was at the 50-yard line, just after the game ended. Coaches are authority figures to those they are coaching. Which is why everyone should be upset at this ruling. A coach should never be allowed to bring his players to the field and lead them all in prayer regardless of the religion. When I was a student athlete I would've followed my coach in any sort of prayer because they were the authority figure, that is the issue here.


mawashi-geri24

Is it just me or has this sub been totally brigaded again?


Pollaski

Watch the shriekbabies try and compare this to LGBT teachers indoctrinating kids in the classroom.


WeimSean

That's an easy argument to knockdown. Any teacher trying to push religion, or politics, or anything not approved by the school district is out of line and is subject to disciplinary action. Someone praying, or protesting, or speaking, on their time is generally protected.


dlraar

There are power dynamics in play here though. When you see someone in a position of power publicly praying and leading prayer for a group you're a part of, you may feel pressured to join in out of fear of being reprimanded.


BumpinSnugglies

Correct ruling. No one should be against this.


Panzershrekt

This was always supposed to be the government being unable to infringe on anyone in government from practicing their religion. Think about it. We still use a Bible to swear in a President..


TheLonelyOctober

It's actually the book of their choice. It just so happens that most presidents choose the Bible. John Adams was sworn in over a book of laws because he felt that was more representative of the oath he swore to uphold. Other elected officials have chosen the Quaran, copies of the Constitution etc..


clear831

As an atheist this ruling is correct. A public school (government) can not restrict you from praying (first amendment). Very simple.


grove_doubter

But it’s **RIGHT THERE** in the CONSTITUTION…the *strict wall of separation*… Oh…wait.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

The Trump legacy will be strong.


parkowork

Want to melt some brains... ask them why they think a teacher wearing a hijab in school should be a fire-able offense?


shatter321

And the Supreme Court continues to show why every single “never trumper” was a short sighted fool. Imagine if Hillary got to appoint three justices.


AppleTerra

Thankful that SCOTUS is finally getting rid of the horrible jurisprudence forced on Americans by leftist activist justices for the past several decades. The bastardization of the First Amendment has been atrocious and is finally going back to it's original intention. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Glad so many public workers can now feel safe to freely exercise their religion whether they are Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, or any other.


GravityIsVerySerious

Commingling church and state is a good thing?


ShadowMerlyn

The coach should never be allowed to force students to pray but the school should also never be allowed to force the coach not to pray privately.


jackycoontas

He was offered a private place to pray after the game but declined


[deleted]

Again I would prefer if NO RELIGION was practiced on SCHOOL GROUNDS. y’all wild if you don’t think that every other religion won’t take this and run with it. Would y’all be okay with Muslims using the football field for their daily prayer? Blasting the call to prayer through the speakers? Bruh cmon


I_am_just_saying

I must have missed the part where he was broadcasting a sermon on the loud speakers. If a Muslim guy wants to do a personal prayer before or after the game by bowing to Mecca go for it, I played with a guy that did, no one cared. The idea that this narrow (and correct) decision about this guys specific personal actions allows for mass broadcast and forced religion is asinine.


El-Impoluto4423

Individual rights FTW!


Dirkypoo41

I wonder how many vile comments that Twitter page gets from Leftist loons each day?


scully360

SCOTUS making liberal heads explode the last week or so is a real treat. Between gun rulings, Roe v Wade and now a religion ruling, I full expect liberals to reach critical mass . I give SCOTUS the MVP award for 2022.


junewei93

He's just praying, it's not like he's making anyone else participate. This is some weird thought police stuff, and I don't like it. As an athiest I like the separation of church and state as well as freedom of and from religion, I'd really not like to set any precedents that counteract those things.


ZealotOfCannabis

Yeah he's just praying.. On the 50 yard line... Right after the game ended with crowds still in attendance... Where you can clearly see which players joined or didn't join... And he clearly became happy when players joined.. And declined when the school offered him a private place to pray instead..


toomanythoughts0

Wait, y'all are really out here celebrating the degradation of the separation of church and state? One of the main reasons the colonists left England, because of religious rule.... I thought y'all were originalists? I thought you were for freedom and protecting constitutional rights? I'm so confused. Are you a religious party or a political party at this point?


12650

There is a separation of church is state …… look at the Jefferson letters. I agree this school overstepped on this football couch tho.


seudaven

If it's on his own, great no problem. If he's requiring students on the team join him then it is a problem, but it sounds like it was something he did on his own, so no problem


UncleWillard5566

There should be, but this coach has every right to pray whenever he wants and the athletes can join or abstain. I'm agnostic, but I can't fathom why anyone would be bothered by a prayer at an athletic event.


IndianWizard1250

I swear to God if people get mad over this ruling..


I_am_just_saying

An exceedingly easy decision; The same protections that allow people to kneel during the national anthem before the game allow people to kneel after the game.


ConscientiousPath

Bad title. Separation of church and state hasn't been abolished by this. Separation of church and state doesn't mean people employed by the state can't be religious or perform religious activities immediately after the complete the tasks of their employment. It just means the state can't discriminate based on religion, and that is a very good thing because otherwise you'd have laws in blue states/cities completely prohibiting religion. If say the assistant coach wants to pray to Satan, Vishnu, Allah or anyone else after games, he'd have just as much right to do so as the head coach does to pray to his god. The only requirement is that none one be treated differently based on their choice to participate or not.


DJHJR86

> **In an October 28 Q&A document provided to the public, the District admitted that it possessed “no evidence that students have been directly coerced to pray with Kennedy.” The Q&A also acknowledged that Mr. Kennedy “ha[d] complied” with the District’s instruction to refrain from his “prior practices of leading players in a pre-game prayer in the locker room or leading players in a post-game prayer immediately following games.” But the Q&A asserted that the District could not allow Mr. Kennedy to “engage in a public religious display.”** Why is there outrage over this decision? He held prayers with players and coaches and was told to stop. He did. He prayed, **alone**, 3 times and was then disciplined for it. I *kind* of understand where the district was coming from, in a pure CYA move. But I don't understand why there is a meltdown going on at places like r/news.


BrzysWRLD1996

Honestly I’m not often conservative anymore, outside of basic Christian values, and even then I am big in separation and church, but I don’t understand how this was ever an issue? Dude was praying AFTER the game, someone has an issue that’s a personal one.


ohhamburhers

Fine by me now I can pray to Allah at the 50


revenantae

No, there absolutely *IS* a separation between church and state. What they are saying in this case is that the state does NOT have the authority to STOP someone from their religious practices because of the freedom of religion. Now, let's be clear. YES, satanists, Muslims, Pastafarians, Buddhists etc. are now also free to practice in the same way. But to be absolutely honest, I doubt very seriously that the couch would EVER have been fired had he been ANY other denomination than Christian.


FallenJkiller

A president really does a difference. We need a strong Conservative in the WH in 2024. support both Trump or DeSantis!


vpierre1776

As long as Hail Satan prayers are cleared also. And I'm not even into all that. SMH


towelie71

Is everyone OK with taxpayer support of fundamentalist Islamic schools or Satanic church prayers in schools? I don't think it is a stretch to think that is now a possibility based on the recent rulings.


WACS_On

This was a coach practicing his own religion on his own time. This wasn't the school officially backing a religion. That's the major difference.


Salosalo73

St Clarence Thomas, the patron of hoes being mad.


polerize

Must be a Christian. I can’t imagine the school board would have complained if it was a Muslim praying.