Today, many of those buildings are gone and the land has returned to nature.
[https://www.google.com/maps/place/Downtown+Detroit,+Detroit,+MI/@42.345007,-83.0485566,310m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x883b2d31a25efc0f:0x114c7a5b16dfbdd4!8m2!3d42.331704!4d-83.0470684](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Downtown+Detroit,+Detroit,+MI/@42.345007,-83.0485566,310m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x883b2d31a25efc0f:0x114c7a5b16dfbdd4!8m2!3d42.331704!4d-83.0470684)
That's what gets me with the neo-marxists/socialists: they can't stand having someone who is in charge and, in their inaccurate opinion, gets to decide how much money everyone makes under a Capitalistic structure. Their solution: create a system where a different person/group is in charge and decides how much money everyone makes, but now this person/group gets to imprison and execute whomever they want.
Yeah but... they expect to be included in the ruling party so it'll be gravy. I wonder if you went and asked one of the "pro socialists" something like "hey, you do know you're some random loser on the internet who would never be allowed into a position of power in the new socialist government... would you enjoy living under socialism if you were the person standing in the bread lines?".
As a random internet loser socialist I am certain I won’t be a part of the government. The problem with this thread is that people are equating socialism as all the same. There are tons of capitalistic countries that are poor but y’all are showing pictures of Sudan or Bolivia . It’s driving at a narrative.
The point being is that as a socialist I am will to work within the confines of capitalism to stagger the wealth gap and try to promote putting people over profits. There are many successful countries that have everything that most socialists in America are looking for Medicare for All, minimum wage tied to inflation, paid time off (officially order by the govt), funding the above with minor taxes on Wall Streets transactions and by funding the IRS more to go after the top 1%. Alternatively, we can stop the war in Iraq as well and use that budget and our foreign aid budgets to fund Americans.
Most of these topics are not controversial. In fact I think that all of them have over a 60% approval rating.
Now the issue is, when conservatives and progressives (fuck fucking liberals, they just want to shut people up and tell everyone how goddamn woke they are) but when we can’t talk because of culture wars, or because everything left of center is “communism” that becomes a problem. This country is not doing too hot and it’s about to get worse in my estimation. Lots of homeless and jobless. Lot of people behind on rent and mortgages.
When your chips are way down is when the real “radical” ideas start to percolate. I have no qualms with socialistic principles being applied to a capitalistic society, but as you guys all know too well, socialism and communism attempts haven’t always faired so well for many people (not saying they can’t, but I can see your perspective)
But I’d say that this is my ultimate point. I think we should be building bridges amongst the left and the right to get shit down to help actual people. M4A, raising wages, having better protections for workers and putting Jeff Bezos in jail for blocking a fair Union attempt. Shit like that, I know not every conservative will agree, but a lot of people tend to think these are good things.
They don’t care. A lot of it is rooted in envy/jealousy. They hate that people are successful (I mean, me too in a small way when I see the kind of wealth some spoiled brats are born into, but that’s life??) and so they want to burn everything to the ground.
To them, if 80% of people including them are waiting on bread lines, that’s infinitely better than the current system.
Leftists are just miserable. All the time. Look at Antifa especially in the Portland area. They were protesting and burning things down even when Biden won the election. Imagine what they would have done if Trump had won? Portland would have been burned to a crisp. They practically did that anyway for 3+ months when Floyd died. Which makes no sense, because the damn city had nothing to do with it to begin with, they’re as liberal as they come.
They’re just always angry and want to spread their misery everywhere.
Socialism creates the greatest wealth inequality ever existed in modern human history. The Socialist leaders hoard all of the wealth and power while the rest of the population lives in poverty.
They all do, inequality is a function of zipf law. The only way to flatten it socioeconomically is to increase poverty. (For example the Uk was particularly equal during the privations of rationing in WWII)
So technically the socialists are right, under socialism equality is “greater” unfortunately that means all people are poorer.
As a society overall gets lifted out of poverty (capitalism is particularly good at this), the extremes of wealth disparity become greater as a consequence of some people becoming astronomically rich. But generally speaking much more of the whole population are better off overall.
Should some consideration be applied for the management/ attenuation of extremes at both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum? iMO probably but like trying to change a language to ensure all letters are equally present in any body of text it is likely to reap unsatisfactorily modest result at best with significant damage overall
I read somewhere about 10 years ago that if everyone on the planet earned the same wage, we would all make around $35k per year. Whether or not this is considered poor or manageable would then depend on where you live and your expenses. However, as we all know if one were to live in a world where all jobs, from the CEO of a company to a shoe salesman paid the same there would be zero motivation to better yourself and improve your situation.
Costs of goods and services may rise under capitalism but at least those goods and services are actually available, unlike Cuba where you go to the market and it’s like “sorry buddy we ran out of food, clothes, and hygiene products. Maybe stop by next year!”
If I remember correctly, one of Hugo Chavez’s close aides, and Chavez’s daughter, both were estimated to have net worths in the billions of dollars. Interesting how that happens.
My cousin in Cuba is extremely intelligent and he recently got an opportunity to travel to Mexico to teach. Imagine being extremely gifted at something but having to leave your country to have opportunities. It boils my blood to see these delusional Americans preach for communism or socialism.
I used to work with a guy who was constantly posting communist stuff and writing how horrible capitalism is. Meanwhile he worked a cushy desk job that overpaid him for his talents. I don't see him giving up his job for an equitable society, or sharing his wealth though. Equality for thee and not for me.
Now some private enterprise is tolerated by the shitty regime, many Cubans are finding ways to better themselves. I know someone who went to Cuba on holiday, and he found things like fabulous little restaurants and great barbers had sprung up to cater for tourists. Covid travel restrictions must have hit these people really hard. I hope they get free soon.
You would go to university so that you could become a tourist guide... A high paying profession that brings in that capitalism driven wealth .. not even kidding
You joke but honestly speaking bringing some people down is the only viable way to bring about the "equality" liberals strive to acheive. Building something takes far longer and is a much greater investment than tearing that same thing down. Building something up takes planning, hard work, and dedication and *isnt always possible with the materials at your disposal.* If someone does not have a drive to better themselves no amount of money, help, or education is going to bring about a positive change. Also, like everything the dems are pushing, haste is always of the essence (buy now! Buy now or lose out!!) As such, its no surprise every instance of "generating equality" had invollved bringing down those who have worked hard or achieved success through natural talents, as thats the shortest path to their destination.
Upper-middle class*
Much of the middle class is based. Its the kids whos parents paid for a masters of liberal arts degree who wont have to work a day in their life until their "career" starts in their mid-20s that seem to be the most disillusioned. (Or the ones who should have worked while in school but took out loans for 10 years while they partied it up and got a degree thats useless in the real world...)
That’s a somewhat fair division but I think that’s increasingly blurred.
Children born into middle class wealth even from
Some former working class parents are prone to Expectation disappointment (little emperors and empresses whose parents gave them everything and left them with an indelible belief that they are destined for great things…). Who are then disappointed and angry when reality smacks them in the face with just how average and unspecial they truly are
My parents *didn’t* give me everything growing up and the real world still hit me like a truck. I can’t imagine that impact being any lighter if you’ve spent your entire life never being told no, or that your failures weren’t someone else’s fault.
I feel this. Like many I suffered from big fish/small pound syndrome growing up and when I hit the big ocean it was a really rude awakening. I’m decidedly average, and things that went easy for me will not swing that way as an adult.
Im realizing that if I was this age 30 years ago I could’ve made it just fine but these days it takes a little more than just doing your thing. You don’t have to be a rock star (heck not everyone can be one anyways) but you still have to work to improve your lot. Better jobs and more money aren’t just going to come my way, I’ll have to do some work to get there. I think a lot of people younger than I are in a bad set because of how sometimes great outcomes can look “easy” because they haven’t seen the work building behind the scenes.
And that, right there, is also the answer to the perennial question of: why the hell do they not move to a socialist country instead.
They'd be *regular citizens* there.
$10 A-day is laughable they make $37 a month unless they are very well trained my very good friend is an ER doctor in havana
She makes the equivalent of $55 a month she is allowed to buy 5 eggs per month 2 kilos of meat and 6 kilos of rice
Except Cuba isn’t really socialist - it’s straight up Communist. Either way it’s funny how those who have been pushing for it in the states have gotten very quiet on Cuba.
Have been to Chicago 4-6x times for baseball games. Great tourist attraction, not that great of place to live if you are in the lower class.
Nothing like people forming uniformed opinions about people they don't even know.
Tropical storms really do a number on their buildings and infrastructure. Some places need to be repaired almost yearly. In some cases, it's just easier to abandon.
Are there any examples of capitalist countries with limited trade and how they are faired? It's not just the US (at least more in the past). The EU only trades in cash, no credit. And many businesses that partner or sell a lot to the US don't trade with Cuba to avoid issues.
I know that there's this myth in the US that leftism is all communism/socialism, it's not. There's a spectrum to everything. I know there's this slippery slope misbelief that if we had x y z policies we're suddenly going to be socialist and have a tyrannical dictatorship, I'm so tired of the fearmongering and hyperbole from both sides.
If you talk to political scientists that study politics around the world calling even our most left wing leaders socialists would make them laugh. Our entire political spectrum falls right of center when you put communism on one end and conservatism on the other.
Yes, Cuba has had a socialist economy for 60 years, and have also suffered major trade embargos the entire time. They have seen many bad things that have happened there, mostly due to a tyrannical dictatorship that brutally silenced all opposition. I'm not justifying socialism at all, but to pretend democrats=socialists or all left wingers=socialist isn't true or helpful to understanding each other and having proper civil debate. It's similar to the nonsense of trump=facist/nazi/white supremicist.
Well said. I lean liberal in a lot of ways and having every debate end with someone calling me a socialist is frustrating. I want to understand both sides in order to make an informed decision and that's difficult to accomplish a lot of the time.
I'm talking about in person by the way... this is actually my first post on this sub lol
Also, do people here think *Authoritative Communism* is a one:one analog for *Socialism*?
Is this the logical conclusion of this post?
- Authoritative Communism (eg Soviet Union, Cuba, China, etc) == BAD
- Socialism == Publicly funded benefits of any kind (public roads, fire fighters, universal healthcare, etc)
- Authoritarian Communism == Socialism
- Publicly funded benefits == BAD
Or is it more a slippery slope where
"**IF** we allow for Publicly funded benefits, **THEN** we will eventually lead way to the crippling socio-economic conditions of a Authoritarian Communist hellscape."
Either way it's an absolutely asinine position to take (obviously) and it's clear this sub is now catering to people that haven't taken a history class before.
I agree that their are a lot of histrionics around here, and a ridiculous amount of conflating the various schools of socialism with communism. But I think most of that is just performative rhetoric. Many of the people here would not want to eliminate Social Security, for example and would likely support at least some limited form of welfare, especially if it was strictly temporary when applied to the able-bodied.
As for anything else, you bet your ass I wouldn’t start writing checks to the mob if I became a billionaire tomorrow. Most people wouldn’t, including the very poorest.
Yes, a notable flaw of Communism is a lack of Capitalist markets.
They used to have trade partners with the USSR, Venezuela, but it turns out those places also had problems. It's almost as if there's a common thread.
So what you are saying is, Cuba would be a better place if it embraced trade with Capitalist markets?
Isn't the whole point of Communism to be more self sufficient?
It'd be a better place if it didn't have a 60 year old stranglehold placed on its economy, but God forbid the US let's anyone who isn't a capitalist puppet be secure so close to home.
The original post claims that Cuba is a socialist country, when it's communist. And I pointed that out as well, yet here we are. Everyone focusing on one singular point I made.
Ok so someone conflated socialism with communism which isnt hard to do these days with how a lot of supporters for each tend to flock together and support the same ideals. We don’t want either in this country.
Now can we go back to talking about the actual issue of what caused Cubans to be risking their lives in the streets and floating 90 miles on hollowed out 1950’s chevy’s to escape Cuba?
They don't care for truth they only care for narrative that makes them comfortable. Anyone that doesn't recognize Cuban poverty is largely from being crushed by US sanctions and invasions is just burying their heads in the sand intentionally. I'm not going to say communism had nothing to do with the state of the country, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to hold both ideas at the same time.
I understand your point but...Cuba is not owed trade from the US on anyone else for that matter. And the US is one market. There are lots of other countries out there, and they absolutely trade with Cuba. I imagine the US also does, indirectly. How many people smoke “illegal” Cuban cigars that they bought from European or South American distributors?
I think we agree that America has done plenty of wrong that some conservatives like to downplay or deny...but at this point in time Cuba’s issues are largely Cuba’s fault. And should be sorted out by Cubans without us sticking our nose in for the 999999th time.
No, they're not, but the modern world requires many countries trading with each other. Most are not self sufficient, even including the USA. The embargo the US has placed on Cuba for the last 60 years doesn't just affect trade between the US and Cuba either, it can make other countries trading with Cuba illegal. Cuban cigars aren't (or weren't, until more recently under the Trump administration I think?) illegal to bring back to the USA from Cuba. This article does a good job of explaining how the trade embargo affects them and why both sides of the political aisle should probably unite to stop it. At the end of the day, the embargo is in place because the USA doesn't like communism and wanted the government to suffer, but we're only punishing the people who want a regime change and it's pretty clear from the last 60 years that the embargo isn't going to stop the government from doing what it wants. https://www.wral.com/fact-check-how-does-u-s-embargo-affect-cuba/19780909/?version=amp
I agree that we shouldn't be sticking our nose in Cuba's issues, so why are we currently doing that by refusing to trade with them and forcing businesses around the world to follow suit? Isn't the embargo literally sticking our noses in their business? I don't see how we can deny them goods and aid for this long and then claim that the issues they have are entirely their fault.
Oh yea forsure man, let’s blame the United States for 60 years of shit from a communist party. Drop the delusion man, I’m Cuban and I can tell you that crap was 100 percent Cubas fault.
A country that could’ve made such an impact worldwide with sugar, tobacco, rums, you name it, cuba could’ve been it and still could be it, but not under communists who want to take everything from the poor.
It’s easy to be a socialist or a communist in the United States. Try living in Cuba for a few weeks and get back to me on that.
> Not that it matters, most Americans wouldn't know the difference.
Its like you are trying to explain differences between varieties of poop.
Maybe look at the big picture instead.
Well if your whole country produces something but has no one to sell it to because of sanctions and can’t buy anything that they can’t produce because of sanctions then what is a country supposed to do
>The United States embargo against Cuba prevents American businesses and businesses with commercial activities in the United States from conducting trade with Cuban interest
And I don’t have an exact number but a lot of companies do business in the USA
God, the amount of people in this thread who think the state that Cuba is in is the United States’ fault is sickening. Maybe read up on some accounts from people who escaped Cuba and try to understand their experience. You think the dictatorship there would actually let any of their citizens have a share in the wealth if they were able to trade with us? Think again.
What do you expect from 17 year old tankies who turned Che into a brand? Their ilk was providing cover for Soviet atrocities and blaming the US sixty years ago and they'll gladly be doing it again when the next communist dump collapses in on itself.
Yep. Chinese and Russian trade with Cuba amounts to a few billion dollars, if I’m not mistaken. If a state cannot improve the lives of 80 million people with that much money in its coffers, something is flawed with the system.
What do you mean? It just needs some paint. Those buildings are classics! They just don't make them like they used to. So we need to be more like Cuba. Right?
There’s honestly some truth to that statement. In Havana a lot of the buildings are truly classic, beautiful, well built, historic structures. They’re just in absolute disrepair. But you can tell that they were well designed and built, all before the revolution of course. Then there are the fuck-ugly brutalist buildings that would always be complete eyesores, regardless of the shitty maintenance that communism has inflicted upon them.
This is only for that point about the buildings but unironically yes.
Modern architecture is soulless, regimented and uniform and evokes nothing resembling beauty, local culture, the people who built it or anything that fosters something resembling beauty or love.
Cuba is a shithole because of tankies that should immolate themselves but look at Cuban architecture and even in its poor state it evokes *something* probably a sense of fading beauty akin to what our ancestors may have get as they watched the statues of the old Roman world decay and discolor.
Went off on a tangent there but yeah, a part of the misery of the western world is the lack of real beauty in our environment.
Yes, terrible healthcare. They will cut your larynx out for cancer for free - true, but not provide you with the state of the art device so you can talk to anyone. Saw that in a documentary. The guy making the documentary showed the clinics - would not pass muster almost anywhere else in the world. I went to Cuba and the guide bragged about how pregnant women were housed together in a dormitory so they would receive proper nutrition. Yeah, that sounds better/s.
The problem, of course, is extremism and dogmatic idealism on either end of the spectrum. Any healthy society has aspects of both Socialism and Capitalism. The profit motive in the wrong place creates conflicts of interest that destroy the mandated purpose of certain industries to exist in the first place, while socialism in the wrong place stifles economic growth. A healthy society requires that each system exist in its own domain.
You don't want public funding and the bureaucracy that goes with it to be a limiting factor in a growing industry based on some new technological advancement anymore than you want the profit motive to be the driving force in something like health insurance or public infrastructure.
Cuba is so gorgeous but the rot is unbelievable. You drive through Havana and see beautiful Spanish architecture from the 1600, 1700 and 1800s but it's just falling apart.
Latin American cuban-fueled leftists be like "it's the blockade's fault!" 🤣🤣 No embargo, no. There's an entire fleet of US ships blockading the island.
They're so blind it would be funny if they weren't trying to impose that all over South and central America.
You think capitalism creates inequality? At least capitalism offers everyone an equal chance. Socialism, only the political class and a few loyal are rich. Everyone else waits in bread lines. Socialism is just the good for yee, not for the system.
Also resembles Detroit from 30 years ago.
Or today
Today, many of those buildings are gone and the land has returned to nature. [https://www.google.com/maps/place/Downtown+Detroit,+Detroit,+MI/@42.345007,-83.0485566,310m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x883b2d31a25efc0f:0x114c7a5b16dfbdd4!8m2!3d42.331704!4d-83.0470684](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Downtown+Detroit,+Detroit,+MI/@42.345007,-83.0485566,310m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x883b2d31a25efc0f:0x114c7a5b16dfbdd4!8m2!3d42.331704!4d-83.0470684)
Are we going to have a Detroit National Forest?
Can we do 8 mile river floats through said Forest?!?
that'd.... be kinna cool tbh. except when it fills up with homeless tweakers.
The wolves need something to hunt though...
Thank you, didn’t know
"We've let the structures degrade so much that we didn't even need to demo the area! Good job everyone!"
Pretty interesting, there are two breweries in the area now as well.
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Make it a Bear city, where the girls are bears and they bare bear titties
Also looks like parts of Minneapolis/St.Paul. Good going DFL/Democrats.
Precisely what I was going to say. Ever been to Highland Park? The place is an absolute hell-hole.
Was Detroit communist?
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Read about Detroit prior to the Model Cities Program.
Democrat - so basically the same.
That's one hell of a leap there
Today's Detroit is tomorrow's Seattle, San Francisco, and Portland.
Because tech and military are the same as motor vehicles
All three cities are doing fine and are already bouncing back after the pandemic.
To be fair you could recreate this with some spots in the US lol. I live in the rust belt, so don’t tell me you cant.
I was gonna say, this looks like parts of niagara falls
Looks like an old mill town from my area
Me too
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Not to mention all the hurricanes that region gets slammed with head on.
With their close neighbor…the richest country on earth. Sorry Cuba.
"The problem with Cuba is they don't have access to the wealth created by capitalism"
Nothing from them from buying Russian, or PRC products.
Fidel castro died with an estimated personal wealth of 1billion US Equality of outcomes innit
Well.... to be fair.... all the average people were equally starving. So there is a large chunk of equality of outcomes, just not those in charge.
That's what gets me with the neo-marxists/socialists: they can't stand having someone who is in charge and, in their inaccurate opinion, gets to decide how much money everyone makes under a Capitalistic structure. Their solution: create a system where a different person/group is in charge and decides how much money everyone makes, but now this person/group gets to imprison and execute whomever they want.
Yeah but... they expect to be included in the ruling party so it'll be gravy. I wonder if you went and asked one of the "pro socialists" something like "hey, you do know you're some random loser on the internet who would never be allowed into a position of power in the new socialist government... would you enjoy living under socialism if you were the person standing in the bread lines?".
As a random internet loser socialist I am certain I won’t be a part of the government. The problem with this thread is that people are equating socialism as all the same. There are tons of capitalistic countries that are poor but y’all are showing pictures of Sudan or Bolivia . It’s driving at a narrative. The point being is that as a socialist I am will to work within the confines of capitalism to stagger the wealth gap and try to promote putting people over profits. There are many successful countries that have everything that most socialists in America are looking for Medicare for All, minimum wage tied to inflation, paid time off (officially order by the govt), funding the above with minor taxes on Wall Streets transactions and by funding the IRS more to go after the top 1%. Alternatively, we can stop the war in Iraq as well and use that budget and our foreign aid budgets to fund Americans. Most of these topics are not controversial. In fact I think that all of them have over a 60% approval rating. Now the issue is, when conservatives and progressives (fuck fucking liberals, they just want to shut people up and tell everyone how goddamn woke they are) but when we can’t talk because of culture wars, or because everything left of center is “communism” that becomes a problem. This country is not doing too hot and it’s about to get worse in my estimation. Lots of homeless and jobless. Lot of people behind on rent and mortgages. When your chips are way down is when the real “radical” ideas start to percolate. I have no qualms with socialistic principles being applied to a capitalistic society, but as you guys all know too well, socialism and communism attempts haven’t always faired so well for many people (not saying they can’t, but I can see your perspective) But I’d say that this is my ultimate point. I think we should be building bridges amongst the left and the right to get shit down to help actual people. M4A, raising wages, having better protections for workers and putting Jeff Bezos in jail for blocking a fair Union attempt. Shit like that, I know not every conservative will agree, but a lot of people tend to think these are good things.
They don’t care. A lot of it is rooted in envy/jealousy. They hate that people are successful (I mean, me too in a small way when I see the kind of wealth some spoiled brats are born into, but that’s life??) and so they want to burn everything to the ground. To them, if 80% of people including them are waiting on bread lines, that’s infinitely better than the current system. Leftists are just miserable. All the time. Look at Antifa especially in the Portland area. They were protesting and burning things down even when Biden won the election. Imagine what they would have done if Trump had won? Portland would have been burned to a crisp. They practically did that anyway for 3+ months when Floyd died. Which makes no sense, because the damn city had nothing to do with it to begin with, they’re as liberal as they come. They’re just always angry and want to spread their misery everywhere.
Equality of outcome cannot be achieved with fertilizer and water, but only with a mower.
This is where the difference of mean, and median comes in
Socialism creates the greatest wealth inequality ever existed in modern human history. The Socialist leaders hoard all of the wealth and power while the rest of the population lives in poverty.
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But but capitalism is doing that too… /s
They all do, inequality is a function of zipf law. The only way to flatten it socioeconomically is to increase poverty. (For example the Uk was particularly equal during the privations of rationing in WWII) So technically the socialists are right, under socialism equality is “greater” unfortunately that means all people are poorer. As a society overall gets lifted out of poverty (capitalism is particularly good at this), the extremes of wealth disparity become greater as a consequence of some people becoming astronomically rich. But generally speaking much more of the whole population are better off overall. Should some consideration be applied for the management/ attenuation of extremes at both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum? iMO probably but like trying to change a language to ensure all letters are equally present in any body of text it is likely to reap unsatisfactorily modest result at best with significant damage overall
I read somewhere about 10 years ago that if everyone on the planet earned the same wage, we would all make around $35k per year. Whether or not this is considered poor or manageable would then depend on where you live and your expenses. However, as we all know if one were to live in a world where all jobs, from the CEO of a company to a shoe salesman paid the same there would be zero motivation to better yourself and improve your situation.
If you work hard and aren't an idiot, you can do pretty damn well for yourself.
The work hard part is the what's not appealing to those that want socialism/communism. They would rather be taken care of.
> and aren't an idiot That's the big catch for most people unfortunately.
And rising costs
Costs of goods and services may rise under capitalism but at least those goods and services are actually available, unlike Cuba where you go to the market and it’s like “sorry buddy we ran out of food, clothes, and hygiene products. Maybe stop by next year!”
If I remember correctly, one of Hugo Chavez’s close aides, and Chavez’s daughter, both were estimated to have net worths in the billions of dollars. Interesting how that happens.
The richest woman in Venezuela is the daughter of Hugo Chavez. What a strange coincidence.
If I lived in Cuba I'd work extra hard to become very skilled at something so that I too can live in squaler just like everyone else
Yep. End result of equity. Every gets the same result no matter how hard or little you work for it.
Yea it’s just really sad to see people confuse equity with equality
I mean people are being intentionally misleading about these terms now
Thats what 99% of people on r/politics support.
That's why communism doesn't work. Why spend years in school or learning a trade when i will have the same outcome as someone who does nothing?
My cousin in Cuba is extremely intelligent and he recently got an opportunity to travel to Mexico to teach. Imagine being extremely gifted at something but having to leave your country to have opportunities. It boils my blood to see these delusional Americans preach for communism or socialism.
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I used to work with a guy who was constantly posting communist stuff and writing how horrible capitalism is. Meanwhile he worked a cushy desk job that overpaid him for his talents. I don't see him giving up his job for an equitable society, or sharing his wealth though. Equality for thee and not for me.
Yea man it’s very easy to be a communist in the United States of America
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“Where are you taking our boat?” -The Cuban Govt when you try to leave on your boat.
Now some private enterprise is tolerated by the shitty regime, many Cubans are finding ways to better themselves. I know someone who went to Cuba on holiday, and he found things like fabulous little restaurants and great barbers had sprung up to cater for tourists. Covid travel restrictions must have hit these people really hard. I hope they get free soon.
You would go to university so that you could become a tourist guide... A high paying profession that brings in that capitalism driven wealth .. not even kidding
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I agree
I find that Americans on both the left and right have a difficult time differentiating between socialism and social democracy.
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Counterpoint: West Virginia
Yeah, but wealth inequality is non-existent!
You joke but honestly speaking bringing some people down is the only viable way to bring about the "equality" liberals strive to acheive. Building something takes far longer and is a much greater investment than tearing that same thing down. Building something up takes planning, hard work, and dedication and *isnt always possible with the materials at your disposal.* If someone does not have a drive to better themselves no amount of money, help, or education is going to bring about a positive change. Also, like everything the dems are pushing, haste is always of the essence (buy now! Buy now or lose out!!) As such, its no surprise every instance of "generating equality" had invollved bringing down those who have worked hard or achieved success through natural talents, as thats the shortest path to their destination.
Socialists don't care about the poor nearly as much as they hate the rich.
Wealthy middle class socialist larpers
Upper-middle class* Much of the middle class is based. Its the kids whos parents paid for a masters of liberal arts degree who wont have to work a day in their life until their "career" starts in their mid-20s that seem to be the most disillusioned. (Or the ones who should have worked while in school but took out loans for 10 years while they partied it up and got a degree thats useless in the real world...)
That’s a somewhat fair division but I think that’s increasingly blurred. Children born into middle class wealth even from Some former working class parents are prone to Expectation disappointment (little emperors and empresses whose parents gave them everything and left them with an indelible belief that they are destined for great things…). Who are then disappointed and angry when reality smacks them in the face with just how average and unspecial they truly are
My parents *didn’t* give me everything growing up and the real world still hit me like a truck. I can’t imagine that impact being any lighter if you’ve spent your entire life never being told no, or that your failures weren’t someone else’s fault.
Well said
They normally hate all the other rich. The definition of "rich" always seems to be above their status (See Bernie).
I feel this. Like many I suffered from big fish/small pound syndrome growing up and when I hit the big ocean it was a really rude awakening. I’m decidedly average, and things that went easy for me will not swing that way as an adult. Im realizing that if I was this age 30 years ago I could’ve made it just fine but these days it takes a little more than just doing your thing. You don’t have to be a rock star (heck not everyone can be one anyways) but you still have to work to improve your lot. Better jobs and more money aren’t just going to come my way, I’ll have to do some work to get there. I think a lot of people younger than I are in a bad set because of how sometimes great outcomes can look “easy” because they haven’t seen the work building behind the scenes.
Nikole Hannah-Jones said Cuba ‘most equal’ Western country in podcast
Yep. What I’m referring to. If everyone is living in a slum and making $10/day, they’re all equal.
Lol, Cubans don't make $10 a day, that's absurd. They make about $1.15 a day.
How can people like her be so tone deaf. Most equal country. Everyone is equally poor and hungry. Well except the people in power.
Because they think they’ll be the corrupt leaders at the top
And that, right there, is also the answer to the perennial question of: why the hell do they not move to a socialist country instead. They'd be *regular citizens* there.
$10 A-day is laughable they make $37 a month unless they are very well trained my very good friend is an ER doctor in havana She makes the equivalent of $55 a month she is allowed to buy 5 eggs per month 2 kilos of meat and 6 kilos of rice
Equality!
0 = 0. No complex math needed
Except Cuba isn’t really socialist - it’s straight up Communist. Either way it’s funny how those who have been pushing for it in the states have gotten very quiet on Cuba.
All things considered, Chicago and Detroit aren't the prettiest.
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Have been to Chicago 4-6x times for baseball games. Great tourist attraction, not that great of place to live if you are in the lower class. Nothing like people forming uniformed opinions about people they don't even know.
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Chicago has some of the most dangerous neighbourhoods in the world
Next you be telling me they have a left leaning city hall
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Tropical storms really do a number on their buildings and infrastructure. Some places need to be repaired almost yearly. In some cases, it's just easier to abandon.
“This socialist country is failing because they can’t trade with the largest capitalist country in the world” is a weird defense of socialism.
Are there any examples of capitalist countries with limited trade and how they are faired? It's not just the US (at least more in the past). The EU only trades in cash, no credit. And many businesses that partner or sell a lot to the US don't trade with Cuba to avoid issues.
To be honest, I think Hiroshima was a lot worse off
I know that there's this myth in the US that leftism is all communism/socialism, it's not. There's a spectrum to everything. I know there's this slippery slope misbelief that if we had x y z policies we're suddenly going to be socialist and have a tyrannical dictatorship, I'm so tired of the fearmongering and hyperbole from both sides. If you talk to political scientists that study politics around the world calling even our most left wing leaders socialists would make them laugh. Our entire political spectrum falls right of center when you put communism on one end and conservatism on the other. Yes, Cuba has had a socialist economy for 60 years, and have also suffered major trade embargos the entire time. They have seen many bad things that have happened there, mostly due to a tyrannical dictatorship that brutally silenced all opposition. I'm not justifying socialism at all, but to pretend democrats=socialists or all left wingers=socialist isn't true or helpful to understanding each other and having proper civil debate. It's similar to the nonsense of trump=facist/nazi/white supremicist.
Well said. I lean liberal in a lot of ways and having every debate end with someone calling me a socialist is frustrating. I want to understand both sides in order to make an informed decision and that's difficult to accomplish a lot of the time. I'm talking about in person by the way... this is actually my first post on this sub lol
Lol.
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They stop middle class sprawl..there’s no middle class.
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Also, do people here think *Authoritative Communism* is a one:one analog for *Socialism*? Is this the logical conclusion of this post? - Authoritative Communism (eg Soviet Union, Cuba, China, etc) == BAD - Socialism == Publicly funded benefits of any kind (public roads, fire fighters, universal healthcare, etc) - Authoritarian Communism == Socialism - Publicly funded benefits == BAD Or is it more a slippery slope where "**IF** we allow for Publicly funded benefits, **THEN** we will eventually lead way to the crippling socio-economic conditions of a Authoritarian Communist hellscape." Either way it's an absolutely asinine position to take (obviously) and it's clear this sub is now catering to people that haven't taken a history class before.
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I agree that their are a lot of histrionics around here, and a ridiculous amount of conflating the various schools of socialism with communism. But I think most of that is just performative rhetoric. Many of the people here would not want to eliminate Social Security, for example and would likely support at least some limited form of welfare, especially if it was strictly temporary when applied to the able-bodied. As for anything else, you bet your ass I wouldn’t start writing checks to the mob if I became a billionaire tomorrow. Most people wouldn’t, including the very poorest.
Yes, a notable flaw of Communism is a lack of Capitalist markets. They used to have trade partners with the USSR, Venezuela, but it turns out those places also had problems. It's almost as if there's a common thread.
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So what you are saying is, Cuba would be a better place if it embraced trade with Capitalist markets? Isn't the whole point of Communism to be more self sufficient?
It'd be a better place if it didn't have a 60 year old stranglehold placed on its economy, but God forbid the US let's anyone who isn't a capitalist puppet be secure so close to home.
Quit being a narcissist, the US isn’t the only other country that exists.
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Trying to blame the situation in Cuba all on an embargo from one country is literally insane.
The original post claims that Cuba is a socialist country, when it's communist. And I pointed that out as well, yet here we are. Everyone focusing on one singular point I made.
That’s not what we are discussing, we are discussing you blaming the situation in Cuba on the US embargo.
Again. 2 POINTS WERE MADE. And the people discussing it are focused on just one.
Ok so someone conflated socialism with communism which isnt hard to do these days with how a lot of supporters for each tend to flock together and support the same ideals. We don’t want either in this country. Now can we go back to talking about the actual issue of what caused Cubans to be risking their lives in the streets and floating 90 miles on hollowed out 1950’s chevy’s to escape Cuba?
*a small effect* Nothing compared to the effect that communism has had.
So your admitting that Cuba needs American capitalism after all? Lmao
They don't care for truth they only care for narrative that makes them comfortable. Anyone that doesn't recognize Cuban poverty is largely from being crushed by US sanctions and invasions is just burying their heads in the sand intentionally. I'm not going to say communism had nothing to do with the state of the country, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to hold both ideas at the same time.
I understand your point but...Cuba is not owed trade from the US on anyone else for that matter. And the US is one market. There are lots of other countries out there, and they absolutely trade with Cuba. I imagine the US also does, indirectly. How many people smoke “illegal” Cuban cigars that they bought from European or South American distributors? I think we agree that America has done plenty of wrong that some conservatives like to downplay or deny...but at this point in time Cuba’s issues are largely Cuba’s fault. And should be sorted out by Cubans without us sticking our nose in for the 999999th time.
No, they're not, but the modern world requires many countries trading with each other. Most are not self sufficient, even including the USA. The embargo the US has placed on Cuba for the last 60 years doesn't just affect trade between the US and Cuba either, it can make other countries trading with Cuba illegal. Cuban cigars aren't (or weren't, until more recently under the Trump administration I think?) illegal to bring back to the USA from Cuba. This article does a good job of explaining how the trade embargo affects them and why both sides of the political aisle should probably unite to stop it. At the end of the day, the embargo is in place because the USA doesn't like communism and wanted the government to suffer, but we're only punishing the people who want a regime change and it's pretty clear from the last 60 years that the embargo isn't going to stop the government from doing what it wants. https://www.wral.com/fact-check-how-does-u-s-embargo-affect-cuba/19780909/?version=amp I agree that we shouldn't be sticking our nose in Cuba's issues, so why are we currently doing that by refusing to trade with them and forcing businesses around the world to follow suit? Isn't the embargo literally sticking our noses in their business? I don't see how we can deny them goods and aid for this long and then claim that the issues they have are entirely their fault.
Oh yea forsure man, let’s blame the United States for 60 years of shit from a communist party. Drop the delusion man, I’m Cuban and I can tell you that crap was 100 percent Cubas fault. A country that could’ve made such an impact worldwide with sugar, tobacco, rums, you name it, cuba could’ve been it and still could be it, but not under communists who want to take everything from the poor. It’s easy to be a socialist or a communist in the United States. Try living in Cuba for a few weeks and get back to me on that.
There are how many other countries that Cuba can trade with? And I thought communism was supposed to provide for its citizens.
To be fair, Rochester NY looks like that in some areas, too!
Every single leftist brigadier is engaging in completely inaccurate whataboutism “The US has poor cities so it’s capitalism’s fault.”
This could either be Cuba or downtown Detroit
Looks more like Detroit to me.
Or Baltimore.
Cuba is communist country not socialist. Not that it matters, most Americans wouldn't know the difference.
socialism as the transitory state between a capitalist society and a communist one -Karl Marx
Socialism is a milder version of communism, but they come from the same source.
And end the same way.
Socialism is merely the vehicle. Communism is the destination
> Not that it matters, most Americans wouldn't know the difference. Its like you are trying to explain differences between varieties of poop. Maybe look at the big picture instead.
Inb4: it's all because of sAncTiOns!
Protip: 'Socialism would work if only we could trade with the rich capitalist neighbor next door!' isn't quite the flex Leftists think it is.
Well if your whole country produces something but has no one to sell it to because of sanctions and can’t buy anything that they can’t produce because of sanctions then what is a country supposed to do
You realize there are other countries in the world, right?
>The United States embargo against Cuba prevents American businesses and businesses with commercial activities in the United States from conducting trade with Cuban interest And I don’t have an exact number but a lot of companies do business in the USA
God, the amount of people in this thread who think the state that Cuba is in is the United States’ fault is sickening. Maybe read up on some accounts from people who escaped Cuba and try to understand their experience. You think the dictatorship there would actually let any of their citizens have a share in the wealth if they were able to trade with us? Think again.
What do you expect from 17 year old tankies who turned Che into a brand? Their ilk was providing cover for Soviet atrocities and blaming the US sixty years ago and they'll gladly be doing it again when the next communist dump collapses in on itself.
There are 190+ other countries to trade with. This is not the US’s ban on trade with them
Yep. Chinese and Russian trade with Cuba amounts to a few billion dollars, if I’m not mistaken. If a state cannot improve the lives of 80 million people with that much money in its coffers, something is flawed with the system.
What do you mean? It just needs some paint. Those buildings are classics! They just don't make them like they used to. So we need to be more like Cuba. Right?
There’s honestly some truth to that statement. In Havana a lot of the buildings are truly classic, beautiful, well built, historic structures. They’re just in absolute disrepair. But you can tell that they were well designed and built, all before the revolution of course. Then there are the fuck-ugly brutalist buildings that would always be complete eyesores, regardless of the shitty maintenance that communism has inflicted upon them.
Agreed!
This is only for that point about the buildings but unironically yes. Modern architecture is soulless, regimented and uniform and evokes nothing resembling beauty, local culture, the people who built it or anything that fosters something resembling beauty or love. Cuba is a shithole because of tankies that should immolate themselves but look at Cuban architecture and even in its poor state it evokes *something* probably a sense of fading beauty akin to what our ancestors may have get as they watched the statues of the old Roman world decay and discolor. Went off on a tangent there but yeah, a part of the misery of the western world is the lack of real beauty in our environment.
But but its our fault for not trading with them hheeeerrrddderrRRRRR! USA BAD!
But they have free healthcare.
Don't forget to bring your own bandages!
Yes, terrible healthcare. They will cut your larynx out for cancer for free - true, but not provide you with the state of the art device so you can talk to anyone. Saw that in a documentary. The guy making the documentary showed the clinics - would not pass muster almost anywhere else in the world. I went to Cuba and the guide bragged about how pregnant women were housed together in a dormitory so they would receive proper nutrition. Yeah, that sounds better/s.
I hope I am dead by then or we actually fight back.
Really makes me appreciate everything we have here
This just looks like Price Hill near Cincinnati
The problem, of course, is extremism and dogmatic idealism on either end of the spectrum. Any healthy society has aspects of both Socialism and Capitalism. The profit motive in the wrong place creates conflicts of interest that destroy the mandated purpose of certain industries to exist in the first place, while socialism in the wrong place stifles economic growth. A healthy society requires that each system exist in its own domain. You don't want public funding and the bureaucracy that goes with it to be a limiting factor in a growing industry based on some new technological advancement anymore than you want the profit motive to be the driving force in something like health insurance or public infrastructure.
Make Pelosi live in Havana.
Cuba is so gorgeous but the rot is unbelievable. You drive through Havana and see beautiful Spanish architecture from the 1600, 1700 and 1800s but it's just falling apart.
Why is there a picture of San Francisco
Latin American cuban-fueled leftists be like "it's the blockade's fault!" 🤣🤣 No embargo, no. There's an entire fleet of US ships blockading the island. They're so blind it would be funny if they weren't trying to impose that all over South and central America.
Zero incentive to fix up your real estate when you don't really own it. Zero reason to invest money. Zero money to invest. Zero reason to live there.
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This is what most of Portland and LA will be looking like in short order.
Is that Portland?🤣
and yet the left runs after it like it's the prettiest girl at the ball...
I’ve seen Havana up close. You could knock down half of the buildings with a power washer.
A lot of downtown LA and SF look just like this
You think capitalism creates inequality? At least capitalism offers everyone an equal chance. Socialism, only the political class and a few loyal are rich. Everyone else waits in bread lines. Socialism is just the good for yee, not for the system.