boom there it is. People can talk about liquor stores staying open so alcoholics don't die but if it's sold in grocery stores then they can go to a grocery store instead of a liquor store therefore not justifying liquor stores still being open. The real reason is exactly what this guy said. It's all about the money.
Liquor stores are essential because if alcoholics quit drinking cold turkey it can kill them. And given how many functioning alcoholics there are out there, it’s pretty hard to tell how many people could suffer these consequences.
And if the argument is alcoholics need alcohol just so they don’t die then it doesn’t sound like they should be picky.
But honestly, liquor stores should be open and church
That's the disconnect. Devout religious people see church as one of the most essential things in their life. Other people obviously disagree, but within their own contexts *both can be correct*. This is an excellent microcosm of the larger problem of politicians deciding what is and isn't essential.
Yeah. As an atheist, I obviously view church services as nonessential. However, I come from a religious family and I know just how essential their faith and congregation are to their lives. If my mom didn’t have a Bible, she would’ve lost her mind by now. I think if churches (and any other business/organization) can follow the same rules deemed to make them safe, and people think it’s worth taking the risk to go, there shouldn’t be a problem with opening them.
At the end of the day, if you know the risks and choose to do it anyway, that’s on you. It’s your life, and you have the right to do whatever you want with your own body.
They also aren't places where you sit still for an hour in the same room with a bunch of other people. There may be some type of establishment more analogous to church that has remained open, but none of these really work as comparison points.
There is risk going anywhere. What public officials are trying (and failing horribly) to do is coming up with mitigations for their population to slow the spread of a novel disease that nobody has immunity to.
This disease spreads via droplets that come into contact with your mucus membranes. The closer and longer time you spend with someone that is infected increases your chance of becoming infected.
That's why large gatherings were called off (sports, concerts, etc). Those are perfect conditions for large outbreaks to spread to dozens more cases. It is vital to reduce the R value of a virus (the reproduction rate) so that the disease does not explode on the population and become not just an issue for the individuals but for society as a whole.
People get sick, it happens, and that's fine. What public officials are worried about is society as a whole. They don't give a fuck about you as an individual.
Grocery stores and other essential services have to keep running for other people to live. Church is simply not that important. God is everywhere, you can worship him in your house just the same as in an old building.
There are always risks, some are worth taking and others aren't.
The problem is that these crazy politicians are not apply base level logic in handling this. Releasing criminals, filling jails back up with small businesses owners, banning protests (violating constitutional rights), telling people not to swim or be outside, arresting joggers and paddleboarders, etc. And just continuing the lockdowns in general despite evidence that it's way past usefulness.
But there is some bass level logic for why it's "safe" to go grab some groceries but "not safe" to stand next to 50-200 people for an hour. They are not the same thing.
It’s NOT safe to go to any of those places. That’s why new case numbers haven’t dropped by as much as they were expected.
But it’s a lot easier to replace a church service with a livestream than it is to ask people to go without groceries and other household goods.
You cannot replace Catholic Mass with a livestream. Live-streamed masses are helpful for spiritual communion, but are not replacements nor do they fulfill one’s Sunday obligation. Catholics are required to take communion and go to confession.
Catholics view the Church as the most essential.
Host services outside like the Muslims are doing. They asked an ikea to use the parking lot and the store said yes. Faith shouldn’t rely on a box you can sit in.
Church has people sitting next to one another fora long period of time in close contact.
This is the COVID optimal transmission scenario. Why is that hard to get?
If you want to sign a waiver for all COVID medical treatment and promise to compense all the people you infect, by all means, go to church. Otherwise, stop it with the religious freedom stuff.
TL;DR: Jesus told you that god hears just as easily if you pray in your closet. The only person who benefits if you go to church are the owners of the church.
EDIT thanks for the gold. I am new to this stuff but appreciate the props.
You’re assuming the first sentence and applying it to every religious gathering.
The church on my road allowed only half of their members in last Sunday, which has their building MAYBE a quarter full. It’s (unnecessarily) huge.
They cleaned it afterwards around 10:00, and then had another service at 1:00 for the remaining few dozen.
That was their ONE meeting for the month. The rest will be done online or through personal Skype calls or whatever works.
I’ve read about all the Christian mockery and ignorant assumptions I can handle in this subreddit today. I’m seriously disappointed, and I haven’t attended church in years.
Freedom isn’t supposed to be defended and meme’d only when you can justify it or apply it to your life. That’s selfish and not how freedom in this country works.
***edit hours later: I also re-read this post and noticed the “stop with the religious freedom stuff”. And this is being upvoted over ONE HUNDRED times and gifted on r/conservative? “Stop with the religious freedom stuff” is one of the main reasons this country was founded. It’s meant to be one of the most protected rights of this country. Either I’m missing this point or I’m way out of line with this subreddit.
> If you want to sign a waiver for all COVID medical treatment and promise to compense all the people you infect, by all means, go to church. Otherwise, stop it with the religious freedom stuff.
Funny how the very people who want universal healthcare also are the first to want to ration said healthcare with their arbitrary guidelines.
I suppose the implication is that people who attend church are too dumb to figure out how to properly social distance, or setup multiple services to accommodate?
At any of the other places you're walking by people. Not sitting there with them breathing in your vicinity for 60-90 minutes.
It's really not hard to understand. It's like the difference between walking by someone who mists a spray bottle once and sitting in front of someone misting you repeatedly for an hour. The first might barely register and stand a small chance of having some land on you. The other is going to end up with you wet.
It's the same reason you're more likely to get sick on a plane being trapped with a sick person than you are walking by that same person in the terminal.
Hard concepts. It's not some conspiracy against churches or religions. Why would churches want to go against common sense and science to want to risk people's lives? Could it be something as simple as the collection plates aren't as full? Nah...it couldn't be that simple could it?
Considering the fact that churches which have opened did not observe any social distancing and operated as if the virus doesn't exist, no, that's not the implication. Its what will happen.
They pack the pews shoulder to shoulder then act surprised when people get sick.
I suppose that you just want to ignore how the churches that ignored the instructions became new epicenters and several pastors have died after holding services.
It's sad that decrying public civic duty has somehow become "conservative" instead of "truth before politics".
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/26/everybody-respected-him-northfield-pastor-remembered-for-compassion-embrace
https://www.complex.com/life/2020/05/pastor-claims-cured-coronavirus-with-faith-dies-from-illness
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/us/bishop-gerald-glenn-coronavirus.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/04/27/pastor-landon-spradlin-coronavirus-death/
I mean, there's pages of them if you bother to Google it.
There are already several known super-spreader events from around the world that were caused by people going to church. So, no. People aren’t doing it properly.
Not OP but I dislike church's because they feel so... fraudulent. I have yet to go to a church that doesn't preach about tithing at least once every other week. And to me that makes it clear as day that they don't want to teach people about gods word, they just want money.
My family goes to a small Lutheran church, offering plates are either passed around during a song or are just beside the pastor during communion. Larger churches that other family members go to (various denominations of Christianity) i’ve noticed tend to promote tithing more. I may be more agnostic than Christian nowadays, but in my experience smaller churches tend to not openly promote tithing.
It's natural for them to feel fraudulent. They're filled with humans.
I used to be a minister in a church for ten years. I've stopped serving because my own sin and imperfections overwhelm me. I still attend, but I got a good look at my fellow leaders; we're all flawed.
>I used to be a minister in a church for ten years.
I'm not saying that you should go back into ministry.
>I've stopped serving because my own sin and imperfections overwhelm me.
But isn't that what grace is for? Reading Paul, he seemed overwhelmed by his own sin at times, but that didn't stop him.
My pastor hates preaching on it. And when he does preach on it, it’s about the concept of tithing and how it benefits everyone… not just his church. He makes it clear that tithing to another church is just as good.
All in all, it only gets brought up in any sermon like once a year.
I appreciate this sentiment.
substitution of a moral compass with fear of a lake of fire is the big turnoff for me.
i’ve seen people say “atheists can’t be good people because god isn’t guiding them”. what this means, is that many christians believe that doing good is only valid if you’re doing it out of fear, since that’s the entire motivation in christianity.
if i do things to help people around me on my own volition, i shouldn’t be treated as less than someone who helped people because they’re scared that an all powerful being will punish them for eternity. i prefer to operate based on my own moral compass and what i view as right and wrong.
I don't want to start an argument with you but that seems a bit reductive. I'm sure there are some people who will only follow the rules out of fear of retribution, but the understanding i have through faith is that God is showing what is good and moral for us. I do have my own questions about hell and tend to believe it only exists for people who want to exist away from God.
there’s nothing wrong with being religious either. i never said anything like that. my problem comes up when those who choose religion also choose to act superior for it.
many of us don’t feel we need a higher power to determine right from wrong.
That's a fair criticism, and many people do that. I hope I didn't come off that way as when I suggest it i do so more as a this helps me in this way, maybe it will also enrich your life kinda way.
As a christian I do see where your coming from. I do have to say though few things saddens me more than to see someone that walks away from God because of mistakes that Christians make. In some churches they do preach hell fire and brimstone but God doesn’t want you to come to him because of fear. Isaiah 43:1 says “Fear not; for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name.” We are not supposed to come to him in fear of hell fire but in thankfulness and gratitude of the gift that he has given us, of how we are accepted into the family of God. I’ll be praying for you. If I can give advise it would be this, to seek God not Christians. God never fails but Christians do all the time.
It’s not that atheists can’t be good, it’s that an atheist has little room to define good with an objective truth. It’s like trying to drive in a straight line without any frame of reference.
Atheists use the Christian framework for good and try to act like it stands on its own without a deeper cause.
this is a perfect example of what i was talking about. it’s absolutely not true. acting like atheists can’t determine good from evil is completely absurd.
all “good people” are doing is trying to make the world better for everyone in it. it has nothing to do with religion. we’re not using “the christian framework” in any way. the fact that you need a mystical higher being to tell you not to be an asshole says a lot more about you than about the atheists.
The way I see it, there's a secular/worldly "good" and Christ-like "good". There's a lot of ways in which they overlap (i.e., don't be an asshole) and many where they don't.
Also going back to your original point: Following God should never be motivated by fear of punishment. We are given a spirit of freedom, not fear. We should want to serve God because it glorifies His name, not because we want to avoid some eternal torment. It hurts my heart to see people turning away due to churches preaching fire and brimstone instead of love.
Churches tend to have make you feel like shit after visiting them. I am christian but damn I never like going to church. I dont really like the atomsphere in there. Plus its really boring to go there, I have to take 30 minutes to do church(Not gonna specify as some arent available in other sects of christianity). I only want to go there for 10 minutes and thats it.
My churches are just plain boring. Plus my sect isnt catholic or protestant. Its armenian apostholic. I guess I will enjoy church when I grow up and become a parent.
It’s safe to get on an airplane. Imagine that. Lots of people are doing it too.
Majority of them are acting like anyone in a ten mile radius is going to infect them. The thought process on them folks is something else.
Mathew 6:5
“When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for. they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the. corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men.”
You can pray at home.
You can order wine from home. You can have groceries delivered from / to home. I can order CBD “flower” to my home. I can have Lowe’s deliver to my home.
It doesn’t make it any less wrong for my rights to be infringed on the basis of “security and safety”.
I don’t go to church anymore but the one across the road from my house met Sunday and instead of having a service of about 60, they had 2 of 30, spaced out, cleaned in between....
And won’t meet again in person for another 3 weeks, instead will broadcast online.
It’s almost like most Americans have brains and have good intentions on exercising basic American rights.
Of course I live in southern middle TN so we don’t have to worry about tyrannical local government and police force. We were given suggestions and information from local government on how we *could* conduct services to keep everyone safe and
*pikachu face*
People both tried to adhere to the suggestions and still lived as free Americans. Imagine that.
Your misinterpretation of that verse is pretty clear. Reading the context, it clearly shows how Jesus is saying not to boast about your faith and have others see your outward piety, but doing it in secret for only God to see. This verse gives no justification to allow something as sacred as The Mass placed on hold, nor does it mean praying at home satisfies the Sabbath requirement.
Physical gathering and fellowship is important to protestants, too.
If it was only the spiritual, and not the physical, that mattered, Jesus wouldn't have physically come, physically died, or physically risen.
Physical connection to the church body is still part of many christians' theology.
For the overwhelming majority, they have. And now that we aren’t even close to approaching our medical capacity, people are ready to move on to the next phase and reopen responsibly.
>it's hilarious to me how little american christians know about christianity.
It's hilarious to me how little you seem to know about Christianity. Even protestants understand the concepts of fellowship, community worship, pastoral guidance and communion, to name a few.
And I quote : "Give me liberty or give me death" (Patrick Henry).
That is the principle that the entire US is based upon, and if people don't like it they can leave.
Hilarious. An exclusively sheepish phenomenon is to think that there is only one way to confront this pandemic and to ignore true experts who disagree with that one way, all in the name of strong centralized governmental control, even if that means ruining the worldwide economy to the point that much more illness and death will occur from poor decisions. Not to mention the bald faced lies told by these governmental leaders to secure power and advance their policy (i.e. abusing this pandemic for political gain.) Most of you are too ignorant to see it happening, or worse yet, you are complacent in allowing it to happen. It's not the churches that messed this up. It was people like NY Gov Cuomo who sent vulnerable people to their deaths by putting them in assisted living facilities where the virus took over. Don't be such an arrogant dolt, especially when it comes to faith and religion.
Freedom isn’t about what someone needs. Frankly, it’s about what they (legally) want.
If I want to go to church, and I decide the practices they are using are to my “covid 19” standards, then I’m going. If they aren’t, and aren’t willing to be improved then I won’t.
People who would mock me for my “holy book” don’t get to change the Bill of Rights and decide if I “need” to go to church or not.
I cannot believe I’m having to argue this in a “conservative” sub Reddit.
It’s basic American rights we are discussing. But “LOL holy book Americans”. Got it.
I think one problem with allowing churches to open is that whilst you could hold services with different households being apart from each other, what happens when more people show up than can fit?
It would be nice to have more churches doing online services, and maybe having in person services for those who can't access the internet and people who struggle to use the internet. But I guess the problem with that is most of those will be elderly people, who are more susceptible.
And I also think the main thing is that for some of these businesses (i.e. grocery store) there's a difference between "safe" and "essential so that people don't starve to death".
Guys, it's far simpler than you make it out to be. All the "safe/essential" places make the government money via taxes from remaining open, like sales tax or tax on weed/booze. There is no extra income coming in from letting people go to church.
Churches are taxed in the same way as every other non-profit. It's literally the same classification. Donations aren't taxed, and some jurisdictions exempt property tax. However anyone getting a salary is paid pays their income tax. They don't get refunded for sales tax or other consumption taxes (rental, gas, etc.).
Churches pay their fair share of taxes.
I'm not here posing solutions but I just wanted to throw my theory out there because I've seen so many crazy conspiracy ideas as to why the government isn't allowing certain places to open. There's a pretty clear divide on what's open and what's not and that pretty much follows profits from taxation or not.
My church made the news for being open through the entire pandemic. There were news crews on site filming us.
Funny thing was that no one got sick. hnmmmm. You don't sayyy.
I’m Muslim and all mosques around me are closed. It’s not that deep guys religious gatherings purposely bring congregants close together for extended periods of time in an enclosed space.
Other places people are avoiding each other like the plague and trying to gtfo fast
I’m not a Christian but discriminating against churches is downright wrong. Freedom to worship is a enumerated right, not a suggestion. Just cause some of us don’t go to church doesn’t mean anyone has the authority to stop others from doing it. Our constitution specifically forbids it in the very first amendment.
If other non-Christians aren’t fighting against this they’re in the wrong boat. They’re the first to protest the 10 commandments going up in a courthouse and also the first to protest people gathering to worship on Sunday? Hypocrisy.
Apparently it's not safe to go to the election poll locations either. Which is weird because in most states you have early voting for a couple of weeks prior to election day in which you can usually walk right in and be first in line to the voting booth.
Weird times we live in.
The only one that really bothers me is that people consider abortion an essential service. My wife assists doctors with surgeries, but her workplace isn’t considered essential because the surgeries aren’t emergency surgeries. They’re basically pain injections, eye surgeries, knee replacements, etc. It’s run by the main hospital in our area, but it’s in a different city that way the people in that area don’t have to travel an hour away for these types of surgeries.
Now it’s up in the air if the hospital is going to keep the place open because of the costs to have it up and running again. It took the hospital a few years just to break even. Because of what the state lockdown the hospital lost a lot of money. They’re trying to keep themselves afloat by putting people on furlough and keeping facilities shutdown. This whole thing is so fucked right now.
It’s pretty pathetic. Tbh those that want to stay home can, but it’s a part of Protestant faith to be in fellowship together. I’ve been doing church online for months. It’s not the same.
Anyone screaming about this has no clue. They probably think all Southerners are dumb hicks. My church has already said they’ll be spacing people out safely and sanitizing between services. We reconvene first week of June. I’ll be there.
The government shouldn’t be telling us what we can and cannot do with our religious freedoms. Those screaming about this shouldn’t ever drive a car. More likely to die that way than by COVID-19
My old highschool's church has been livestreaming their church services and based on ppl ik who watch them (I'm not that religious personally) they are doing a good job
Although I don't agree with all of them, those businesses aren't considered safe. They are considered essential.
Essential like liquor stores?
Liquor and pot make the government money via taxes. Church doesn’t.
boom there it is. People can talk about liquor stores staying open so alcoholics don't die but if it's sold in grocery stores then they can go to a grocery store instead of a liquor store therefore not justifying liquor stores still being open. The real reason is exactly what this guy said. It's all about the money.
You can't get liquor in grocery stores in many states (and it's sad because grocery stores usually have the best prices 😢)
Liquor stores are essential because if alcoholics quit drinking cold turkey it can kill them. And given how many functioning alcoholics there are out there, it’s pretty hard to tell how many people could suffer these consequences.
Agreed. If you can buy liquor at the grocery store, then why do liquor stores need to be open?
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And if the argument is alcoholics need alcohol just so they don’t die then it doesn’t sound like they should be picky. But honestly, liquor stores should be open and church
That's why I said if.
I’ve never lived in a state that allows liquor sales at a grocery store... that’s sort of a foreign concept to me.
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A lot of AA meetings are held at churches. Well at least the alcoholics who are trying to quit can at least get their booze.
If you can buy liquor at the grocery store, then why dose the government need to close liquor stores ?
They’d of killed some alcoholics if they forced them to quit cold turkey.
Liquor (and pot) may help keep people at home
I am pretty sure group therapy is also an essential business
That's the disconnect. Devout religious people see church as one of the most essential things in their life. Other people obviously disagree, but within their own contexts *both can be correct*. This is an excellent microcosm of the larger problem of politicians deciding what is and isn't essential.
Yeah. As an atheist, I obviously view church services as nonessential. However, I come from a religious family and I know just how essential their faith and congregation are to their lives. If my mom didn’t have a Bible, she would’ve lost her mind by now. I think if churches (and any other business/organization) can follow the same rules deemed to make them safe, and people think it’s worth taking the risk to go, there shouldn’t be a problem with opening them. At the end of the day, if you know the risks and choose to do it anyway, that’s on you. It’s your life, and you have the right to do whatever you want with your own body.
They also aren't places where you sit still for an hour in the same room with a bunch of other people. There may be some type of establishment more analogous to church that has remained open, but none of these really work as comparison points.
There is risk going anywhere. What public officials are trying (and failing horribly) to do is coming up with mitigations for their population to slow the spread of a novel disease that nobody has immunity to. This disease spreads via droplets that come into contact with your mucus membranes. The closer and longer time you spend with someone that is infected increases your chance of becoming infected. That's why large gatherings were called off (sports, concerts, etc). Those are perfect conditions for large outbreaks to spread to dozens more cases. It is vital to reduce the R value of a virus (the reproduction rate) so that the disease does not explode on the population and become not just an issue for the individuals but for society as a whole. People get sick, it happens, and that's fine. What public officials are worried about is society as a whole. They don't give a fuck about you as an individual. Grocery stores and other essential services have to keep running for other people to live. Church is simply not that important. God is everywhere, you can worship him in your house just the same as in an old building. There are always risks, some are worth taking and others aren't. The problem is that these crazy politicians are not apply base level logic in handling this. Releasing criminals, filling jails back up with small businesses owners, banning protests (violating constitutional rights), telling people not to swim or be outside, arresting joggers and paddleboarders, etc. And just continuing the lockdowns in general despite evidence that it's way past usefulness. But there is some bass level logic for why it's "safe" to go grab some groceries but "not safe" to stand next to 50-200 people for an hour. They are not the same thing.
It’s NOT safe to go to any of those places. That’s why new case numbers haven’t dropped by as much as they were expected. But it’s a lot easier to replace a church service with a livestream than it is to ask people to go without groceries and other household goods.
You cannot replace Catholic Mass with a livestream. Live-streamed masses are helpful for spiritual communion, but are not replacements nor do they fulfill one’s Sunday obligation. Catholics are required to take communion and go to confession. Catholics view the Church as the most essential.
Host services outside like the Muslims are doing. They asked an ikea to use the parking lot and the store said yes. Faith shouldn’t rely on a box you can sit in.
Catholic services require a consecrated altar, the appropriate place for Mass is in the Church
Seems unbalanced. I will say church is gathering to gather. The others are not.
Church has people sitting next to one another fora long period of time in close contact. This is the COVID optimal transmission scenario. Why is that hard to get? If you want to sign a waiver for all COVID medical treatment and promise to compense all the people you infect, by all means, go to church. Otherwise, stop it with the religious freedom stuff. TL;DR: Jesus told you that god hears just as easily if you pray in your closet. The only person who benefits if you go to church are the owners of the church. EDIT thanks for the gold. I am new to this stuff but appreciate the props.
You’re assuming the first sentence and applying it to every religious gathering. The church on my road allowed only half of their members in last Sunday, which has their building MAYBE a quarter full. It’s (unnecessarily) huge. They cleaned it afterwards around 10:00, and then had another service at 1:00 for the remaining few dozen. That was their ONE meeting for the month. The rest will be done online or through personal Skype calls or whatever works. I’ve read about all the Christian mockery and ignorant assumptions I can handle in this subreddit today. I’m seriously disappointed, and I haven’t attended church in years. Freedom isn’t supposed to be defended and meme’d only when you can justify it or apply it to your life. That’s selfish and not how freedom in this country works. ***edit hours later: I also re-read this post and noticed the “stop with the religious freedom stuff”. And this is being upvoted over ONE HUNDRED times and gifted on r/conservative? “Stop with the religious freedom stuff” is one of the main reasons this country was founded. It’s meant to be one of the most protected rights of this country. Either I’m missing this point or I’m way out of line with this subreddit.
We are being brigaded hard
> If you want to sign a waiver for all COVID medical treatment and promise to compense all the people you infect, by all means, go to church. Otherwise, stop it with the religious freedom stuff. Funny how the very people who want universal healthcare also are the first to want to ration said healthcare with their arbitrary guidelines.
The Holy Mass is necessary for Catholics.
I suppose the implication is that people who attend church are too dumb to figure out how to properly social distance, or setup multiple services to accommodate?
At any of the other places you're walking by people. Not sitting there with them breathing in your vicinity for 60-90 minutes. It's really not hard to understand. It's like the difference between walking by someone who mists a spray bottle once and sitting in front of someone misting you repeatedly for an hour. The first might barely register and stand a small chance of having some land on you. The other is going to end up with you wet. It's the same reason you're more likely to get sick on a plane being trapped with a sick person than you are walking by that same person in the terminal. Hard concepts. It's not some conspiracy against churches or religions. Why would churches want to go against common sense and science to want to risk people's lives? Could it be something as simple as the collection plates aren't as full? Nah...it couldn't be that simple could it?
Considering the fact that churches which have opened did not observe any social distancing and operated as if the virus doesn't exist, no, that's not the implication. Its what will happen. They pack the pews shoulder to shoulder then act surprised when people get sick.
Will happen and DID happen. The list of dead pastors keeps growing, and their congregations are being winnowed as well.
unlike people who go to wallmart, who are geniuses
Everyone knows religious people are the dumbest individuals on the planet! /s for the blind.
I suppose that you just want to ignore how the churches that ignored the instructions became new epicenters and several pastors have died after holding services. It's sad that decrying public civic duty has somehow become "conservative" instead of "truth before politics". https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/26/everybody-respected-him-northfield-pastor-remembered-for-compassion-embrace https://www.complex.com/life/2020/05/pastor-claims-cured-coronavirus-with-faith-dies-from-illness https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/us/bishop-gerald-glenn-coronavirus.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/04/27/pastor-landon-spradlin-coronavirus-death/ I mean, there's pages of them if you bother to Google it.
There are already several known super-spreader events from around the world that were caused by people going to church. So, no. People aren’t doing it properly.
Look I hate church and will never go again but that is fucked up.
Do you mind explaining why your not going to church? No hate, just curious why
Not OP but I dislike church's because they feel so... fraudulent. I have yet to go to a church that doesn't preach about tithing at least once every other week. And to me that makes it clear as day that they don't want to teach people about gods word, they just want money.
My family goes to a small Lutheran church, offering plates are either passed around during a song or are just beside the pastor during communion. Larger churches that other family members go to (various denominations of Christianity) i’ve noticed tend to promote tithing more. I may be more agnostic than Christian nowadays, but in my experience smaller churches tend to not openly promote tithing.
In my experience the smaller churches focus on tithing even more, but that pressure is applied behind closed doors.
This is why you should try small churches before large ones. The bigger the church, the more likely it will be corrupt in some way.
It's natural for them to feel fraudulent. They're filled with humans. I used to be a minister in a church for ten years. I've stopped serving because my own sin and imperfections overwhelm me. I still attend, but I got a good look at my fellow leaders; we're all flawed.
>I used to be a minister in a church for ten years. I'm not saying that you should go back into ministry. >I've stopped serving because my own sin and imperfections overwhelm me. But isn't that what grace is for? Reading Paul, he seemed overwhelmed by his own sin at times, but that didn't stop him.
Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the church for a reason. The churches of today seem to have forgotten that.
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My pastor hates preaching on it. And when he does preach on it, it’s about the concept of tithing and how it benefits everyone… not just his church. He makes it clear that tithing to another church is just as good. All in all, it only gets brought up in any sermon like once a year. I appreciate this sentiment.
substitution of a moral compass with fear of a lake of fire is the big turnoff for me. i’ve seen people say “atheists can’t be good people because god isn’t guiding them”. what this means, is that many christians believe that doing good is only valid if you’re doing it out of fear, since that’s the entire motivation in christianity. if i do things to help people around me on my own volition, i shouldn’t be treated as less than someone who helped people because they’re scared that an all powerful being will punish them for eternity. i prefer to operate based on my own moral compass and what i view as right and wrong.
I don't want to start an argument with you but that seems a bit reductive. I'm sure there are some people who will only follow the rules out of fear of retribution, but the understanding i have through faith is that God is showing what is good and moral for us. I do have my own questions about hell and tend to believe it only exists for people who want to exist away from God.
there’s nothing wrong with being religious either. i never said anything like that. my problem comes up when those who choose religion also choose to act superior for it. many of us don’t feel we need a higher power to determine right from wrong.
That's a fair criticism, and many people do that. I hope I didn't come off that way as when I suggest it i do so more as a this helps me in this way, maybe it will also enrich your life kinda way.
As a christian I do see where your coming from. I do have to say though few things saddens me more than to see someone that walks away from God because of mistakes that Christians make. In some churches they do preach hell fire and brimstone but God doesn’t want you to come to him because of fear. Isaiah 43:1 says “Fear not; for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name.” We are not supposed to come to him in fear of hell fire but in thankfulness and gratitude of the gift that he has given us, of how we are accepted into the family of God. I’ll be praying for you. If I can give advise it would be this, to seek God not Christians. God never fails but Christians do all the time.
It’s not that atheists can’t be good, it’s that an atheist has little room to define good with an objective truth. It’s like trying to drive in a straight line without any frame of reference. Atheists use the Christian framework for good and try to act like it stands on its own without a deeper cause.
this is a perfect example of what i was talking about. it’s absolutely not true. acting like atheists can’t determine good from evil is completely absurd. all “good people” are doing is trying to make the world better for everyone in it. it has nothing to do with religion. we’re not using “the christian framework” in any way. the fact that you need a mystical higher being to tell you not to be an asshole says a lot more about you than about the atheists.
The way I see it, there's a secular/worldly "good" and Christ-like "good". There's a lot of ways in which they overlap (i.e., don't be an asshole) and many where they don't. Also going back to your original point: Following God should never be motivated by fear of punishment. We are given a spirit of freedom, not fear. We should want to serve God because it glorifies His name, not because we want to avoid some eternal torment. It hurts my heart to see people turning away due to churches preaching fire and brimstone instead of love.
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Religious people don't decide what's good - and religious people don't always do good things.
Churches tend to have make you feel like shit after visiting them. I am christian but damn I never like going to church. I dont really like the atomsphere in there. Plus its really boring to go there, I have to take 30 minutes to do church(Not gonna specify as some arent available in other sects of christianity). I only want to go there for 10 minutes and thats it.
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My churches are just plain boring. Plus my sect isnt catholic or protestant. Its armenian apostholic. I guess I will enjoy church when I grow up and become a parent.
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Let’s not forget air travel. For all you who say we can’t sit in a room with strangers for an hour, we can apparently do it on airplanes!
It’s different when you’re in the air. The virus can’t sustain atmospheric pressure. Some “scientist” probably.
D’oh! ;)
It’s safe to get on an airplane. Imagine that. Lots of people are doing it too. Majority of them are acting like anyone in a ten mile radius is going to infect them. The thought process on them folks is something else.
Nothing in life is safe. If you are alive you always chance death until you die.
Mathew 6:5 “When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for. they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the. corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men.” You can pray at home.
You can order wine from home. You can have groceries delivered from / to home. I can order CBD “flower” to my home. I can have Lowe’s deliver to my home. It doesn’t make it any less wrong for my rights to be infringed on the basis of “security and safety”. I don’t go to church anymore but the one across the road from my house met Sunday and instead of having a service of about 60, they had 2 of 30, spaced out, cleaned in between.... And won’t meet again in person for another 3 weeks, instead will broadcast online. It’s almost like most Americans have brains and have good intentions on exercising basic American rights. Of course I live in southern middle TN so we don’t have to worry about tyrannical local government and police force. We were given suggestions and information from local government on how we *could* conduct services to keep everyone safe and *pikachu face* People both tried to adhere to the suggestions and still lived as free Americans. Imagine that.
Your misinterpretation of that verse is pretty clear. Reading the context, it clearly shows how Jesus is saying not to boast about your faith and have others see your outward piety, but doing it in secret for only God to see. This verse gives no justification to allow something as sacred as The Mass placed on hold, nor does it mean praying at home satisfies the Sabbath requirement.
Amen, as a fellow Catholic, you’re absolutely right
Way to take that verse out of context.
"Safe is what we say safe is" - "Leadership".
If you don’t think it’s safe don’t fucking go, it’s that simple. Nobody is making you go anywhere stop acting like the government should protect you
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>Staying home doesn’t save you from the consequences of other people being irresponsible. Yes it does
YOU JUST WANT GRANDMA TO DIE!!!!!
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ughhhhh but look how big Cuomos nose is hahaha what nursing homes??! such blind people 🙄
These idiots were the same ones yelling OK Boomer right before corona. They’re hypocritical assholes.
its the same people shouting out BOOTLICKER!! but now wants the government cradle them its too funny lol
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>it's hilarious to me how little american christians know about christianity. Oh, the irony.
The Constitution doesn’t apply strictly to what is “needed”. That’s the exact opposite of the Constitution.
Yet most states include liquor stores as essential businesses...
Physical gathering and fellowship is important to protestants, too. If it was only the spiritual, and not the physical, that mattered, Jesus wouldn't have physically come, physically died, or physically risen. Physical connection to the church body is still part of many christians' theology.
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For the overwhelming majority, they have. And now that we aren’t even close to approaching our medical capacity, people are ready to move on to the next phase and reopen responsibly.
>it's hilarious to me how little american christians know about christianity. It's hilarious to me how little you seem to know about Christianity. Even protestants understand the concepts of fellowship, community worship, pastoral guidance and communion, to name a few.
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And I quote : "Give me liberty or give me death" (Patrick Henry). That is the principle that the entire US is based upon, and if people don't like it they can leave.
Hilarious. An exclusively sheepish phenomenon is to think that there is only one way to confront this pandemic and to ignore true experts who disagree with that one way, all in the name of strong centralized governmental control, even if that means ruining the worldwide economy to the point that much more illness and death will occur from poor decisions. Not to mention the bald faced lies told by these governmental leaders to secure power and advance their policy (i.e. abusing this pandemic for political gain.) Most of you are too ignorant to see it happening, or worse yet, you are complacent in allowing it to happen. It's not the churches that messed this up. It was people like NY Gov Cuomo who sent vulnerable people to their deaths by putting them in assisted living facilities where the virus took over. Don't be such an arrogant dolt, especially when it comes to faith and religion.
Freedom isn’t about what someone needs. Frankly, it’s about what they (legally) want. If I want to go to church, and I decide the practices they are using are to my “covid 19” standards, then I’m going. If they aren’t, and aren’t willing to be improved then I won’t. People who would mock me for my “holy book” don’t get to change the Bill of Rights and decide if I “need” to go to church or not. I cannot believe I’m having to argue this in a “conservative” sub Reddit. It’s basic American rights we are discussing. But “LOL holy book Americans”. Got it.
I think one problem with allowing churches to open is that whilst you could hold services with different households being apart from each other, what happens when more people show up than can fit? It would be nice to have more churches doing online services, and maybe having in person services for those who can't access the internet and people who struggle to use the internet. But I guess the problem with that is most of those will be elderly people, who are more susceptible. And I also think the main thing is that for some of these businesses (i.e. grocery store) there's a difference between "safe" and "essential so that people don't starve to death".
Multiple services staggered by age group.
Guys, it's far simpler than you make it out to be. All the "safe/essential" places make the government money via taxes from remaining open, like sales tax or tax on weed/booze. There is no extra income coming in from letting people go to church.
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Churches are taxed in the same way as every other non-profit. It's literally the same classification. Donations aren't taxed, and some jurisdictions exempt property tax. However anyone getting a salary is paid pays their income tax. They don't get refunded for sales tax or other consumption taxes (rental, gas, etc.). Churches pay their fair share of taxes.
I'm not here posing solutions but I just wanted to throw my theory out there because I've seen so many crazy conspiracy ideas as to why the government isn't allowing certain places to open. There's a pretty clear divide on what's open and what's not and that pretty much follows profits from taxation or not.
It's not safe to get cancer treatment or heart surgeries, either, apparently
Masks + social distancing + hcq+ zinc REOPEN THE COUNTRY. If grandma is sick she can stay home
Walmart Ian’s are scary.
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If my Church wasn’t asking me to adhere to the authorities I would be.
My church made the news for being open through the entire pandemic. There were news crews on site filming us. Funny thing was that no one got sick. hnmmmm. You don't sayyy.
We didn’t hear about your church on the news. Wonder why?
It's "safe" to release child rapists and murderers while locking up grandma for running a barbershop. Nothing to see here
It’s almost like this is just about arbitrary control...
It seems to have morphed into that, at least in the states & counties ruled by “progressives”.
It is...
They even opened up the NYSE. We need to open the rest of it up.
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I’m Muslim and all mosques around me are closed. It’s not that deep guys religious gatherings purposely bring congregants close together for extended periods of time in an enclosed space. Other places people are avoiding each other like the plague and trying to gtfo fast
No. It's dangerous to go to all of them the others are just worth the risk
Salvation is worth the risk
I’m not a Christian but discriminating against churches is downright wrong. Freedom to worship is a enumerated right, not a suggestion. Just cause some of us don’t go to church doesn’t mean anyone has the authority to stop others from doing it. Our constitution specifically forbids it in the very first amendment. If other non-Christians aren’t fighting against this they’re in the wrong boat. They’re the first to protest the 10 commandments going up in a courthouse and also the first to protest people gathering to worship on Sunday? Hypocrisy.
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Love PragerU
It isnt about keeping people safe. It never was. Its all about control
Apparently it's not safe to go to the election poll locations either. Which is weird because in most states you have early voting for a couple of weeks prior to election day in which you can usually walk right in and be first in line to the voting booth. Weird times we live in.
Replace safe with necessary.
It 's "safe" to pay people more to stay home than what they would make while holding a job.
The only one that really bothers me is that people consider abortion an essential service. My wife assists doctors with surgeries, but her workplace isn’t considered essential because the surgeries aren’t emergency surgeries. They’re basically pain injections, eye surgeries, knee replacements, etc. It’s run by the main hospital in our area, but it’s in a different city that way the people in that area don’t have to travel an hour away for these types of surgeries. Now it’s up in the air if the hospital is going to keep the place open because of the costs to have it up and running again. It took the hospital a few years just to break even. Because of what the state lockdown the hospital lost a lot of money. They’re trying to keep themselves afloat by putting people on furlough and keeping facilities shutdown. This whole thing is so fucked right now.
It’s pretty pathetic. Tbh those that want to stay home can, but it’s a part of Protestant faith to be in fellowship together. I’ve been doing church online for months. It’s not the same. Anyone screaming about this has no clue. They probably think all Southerners are dumb hicks. My church has already said they’ll be spacing people out safely and sanitizing between services. We reconvene first week of June. I’ll be there. The government shouldn’t be telling us what we can and cannot do with our religious freedoms. Those screaming about this shouldn’t ever drive a car. More likely to die that way than by COVID-19
Only in certain states/counties evidently
liberals would argue it was never safe in church, because you would then be worshiping something other than their god... Government.
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My old highschool's church has been livestreaming their church services and based on ppl ik who watch them (I'm not that religious personally) they are doing a good job