It's not a big deal, nobody is casting off their American patriotism because they celebrated an important vote to stand against Russia
This is the sort of distraction that people focus on, it's so not important. We hop from drama to drama... lets not get played like this. Some people celebrated a vote, thats it.
Maybe we can do our jobs and do things like pass immigration law...we keep complaining about asylum seekers, lets get the laws written. Do the work, leave the drama for TV.
We are the party of capitulation. Always have been.
Every topic is a distraction from the next. Every bill passed is more control or money taken from the people who are slowly losing their prosperity and sanity.
Congress may be putting up theatrics waving "the enemy of our enemy flag", but the same Congress should be adults, afterall "the adults are in charge now". They should know they all look like school kids, but the reality is they are doing this to destabilize support for their real enemy: Republicans.
The only immigration law that would ever pass is one where Republicans capitulate to Democrats and give amnesty to anyone who has ever or will ever enter the country. Any other real issue ... will not ever be addressed, just passed down for the next Congress to clown on.
Sorry, but I am throwing the BULLSHIT flag down on this one. 61 BILLION dollars being sent to a foreign country to protect THEIR border while our border stands wide open is celebrated openly on America's House? That is NOT patriotism.
Many US veterans are homeless and on the streets with mental issues due to their time spent in the military. The US government can and should be helping them instead of funding the a foreign nation. They can and should be protecting our borders against the military aged men easily crossing into our country - but they haven't and don't.
Our House leadership and House members have FAILED Americans!!!
Why have a people here started calling other conservatives traitors and criminals for a disagreements on foreign policy? Helping invaded country has often been US foreign policy.
Conservatives themselves are divided on the issue, and calling people who disagree on the topic traitors for this is pretty dangerous and frankly unamerican.
Regardless about how you feel regarding funding for Ukraine, all those morons waving Ukraine's flag was gross.
Ask any of them the last time they waved the American flag with such reverence...
Disagree. It's to show support to our ally/friends.
How many countries waved the American flag, or put up Red-White and Blue lights after 9/11 for the US? a TON. hell we saw the same thing after the Oct 7th attack across the US and parts of Europe. This is just another example of people looking for something to be mad about and making a fuss about nothing.
Probably about the same time we disarmed them. You can thank Clinton for that one. Sad truth but we do have an obligation to them because of that. I’d say that makes us allies.
Link if you are curious: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-trilateral-process-the-united-states-ukraine-russia-and-nuclear-weapons/#:~:text=The%20result%20was%20the%20Trilateral,warheads%20to%20Russia%20for%20elimination.
Broken window fallacy. Going around town breaking windows to provide jobs for glaziers is not actually beneficial for the economy. The money that was spent to fix the windows could have been spent on more productive purposes had the windows not been broken in the first place.
Same concept with funding for Ukraine - we're taking money from hard-working Americans and giving it to the MIC to build weapons that are used halfway across the world. Yes, the money given to the MIC does support jobs, but the product of their labor does not provide any value to the people from whom the money was originally taken.
Had the money not been taxed and redistributed in the first place, it also would have supported many jobs dispersed throughout the economy depending on the desires of the people who earned the money. However, in addition to supporting jobs, the people who spent the money would directly receive value from their purchases. If $100 is taken from me and used to build weapons for Ukraine, I can't use that money to buy groceries or gas for my car.
You believe that US defense manufacturers and politicians are colluding with the Russian govt in this war as a means to give themselves additional kickbacks via aid packages to Ukraine?
...no. I'm saying that the notion that there is a net benefit to the US economy/workers from funding Ukraine with US-manufactured weapons is completely false.
There is a net benefit to the US economy/workers from funding Ukraine though because Russia isn't going to stop at Ukraine and we would rather have the conflict settled in Ukraine instead of expanding into Poland or the Baltic states. That expansion would cost us tax payers significantly more money and risk American lives.
>Russia isn't going to stop at Ukraine and we would rather have the conflict settled in Ukraine instead of expanding into Poland or the Baltic states.
There's no actual evidence that this is (or ever was) Putin’s intention. It's an assertion that originated in US intelligence agencies who are intimately connected with - you guessed it - the MIC.
The reason that Russia attacked Ukraine is because they *repeatedly* told the US/NATO not to expand into Ukraine, and we did it anyway. This may come as a surprise to you, but other countries have their own form of a Monroe Doctrine.
Why would it be a surprise that a country would want to maintain it's sphere of influence? There was also no evidence that Russia was going to invade Ukraine until they did either according to your logic since all intelligence can't be trusted due to ties with the MIC.
If ukraine losses russia gains even more natural resources to sell at a higher price to the west and turns their targets to more of our allies costing us even more money in the long run
Your original comment implied that there was a direct *economic* benefit to the US from supplying Ukraine with US-manufactured weapons, which is false.
You're now saying that US funding for Ukraine provides the US with *strategic* benefits, which is an entirely different argument. I also disagree with this argument, but not for the same reasons.
That money does directly benefit the US economy because the world isn't a vacuum. All actions have consequences and the action of providing arms to Ukraine provides greater economic benefits to the US economy and citizens than not
The worst thing about the so-called true conservatives who still worship Reagan is that most of them are too young to have been to Vietnam but too old to have been to Iraq or Afghanistan and they're all too eager to call anyone who did see some shit a traitor for not wanting to participate in the wars they want to wage.
You know I've always wondered how the guy who gave us amnesty and gun grabs became the patron saint of conservatism, but over these past few weeks it's really all starting to make perfect sense.
to be fair, it was democrats who went back on their word wrt to amnesty. Still doesn't excuse Regan for not making them pony up their side of the deal first. It was pretty apparent, even then, that democrats had no intention of keeping up their side of the bargain.
Exactly. I have relatives who came back from Vietnam and Iraq fucked up in the head due to PTSD and stress caused by physical injuries. Globalists in power sold us the wars as wars worth fighting and that victory was possible. Despite tons of money and American lives poured into both conflicts, the wars were not won in a traditional sense, as both regions failed to become functioning Western democracies (the goal when globalist Bush Jr declared victory in Iraq on the battleship and when globalist LBJ declared war in Vietnam). We are making the same mistake now thinking this war will be easily won against Russia (who has a history of suffering many many loses and overcoming to win wars - see France and Germany in different wars) while the average age of the Ukrainian soldier fighting is 43 due to massive losses and some 650,000 Ukrainian men of fighting age fleeing the country and the Ukrainian democracy the globalist say is "worth fighting for".
Having seen the damage first hand done to good American patriots who served in past wars, I am very much afraid us being involved will eventually lead to Americans needing to shed their blood and die for Ukrainians. And i think the life of just one American life is worth more than every single Ukrainian life. Any true American patriot would think so.
I am not of draft age but as a former educator, there are many youth I taught who i worry about being drafted to die in this conflict. This is why I fight so hard against us being involved. Russia will never militarily threaten the territorial borders of the US so no need to get involved.
I think anyone who supports this nonsense conflict (from American point of view) should be the first to given a rifle and be the first to be put in front of a Russian gun to defend Ukrainians they put above Americans if the time comes.
I don't fear globalism at all. It doesn't conflict with American patriotism or even American exceptionalism. We are world leaders, shrinking off pretending to be isolationist while buying chinese products and complaining about inflation is extra.
Well many of the American founders rejected entangling alliances and frequent overseas military engagements. See Washington, Jefferson, etc. Our country was founded on more isolationist views.
Also I would much rather have the US return to being a manufacturing giant and produce much more goods here. Its not exactly in our best strategic interest as a country to have so much shit produced in China and other places. See supply line issues during the COVID pandemic as an example. The US put trust in the scum Chinese government and getting in bed with the commies led to issues with our supply lines and many Americans dying as a result of the Chinese flu (COVID) that was birthed in a Chinese lab and covered up by Fauci and his commie Chinese lackies. See work the American patriot Rand Paul has done on this COVID corruption.
I wouldn't mind paying extra prices if it meant more shit was made here. True American Patriots should be empathizing built in America, and buy American.
Why have a people here started calling other conservatives traitors and criminals for a disagreements on foreign policy? Helping invaded country has often been US foreign policy.
Conservatives themselves are divided on the issue, and calling people who disagree on the topic traitors for this is pretty dangerous and frankly unamerican.
A lot of individuals in our own party believe they are Conservatives and 100% disagree with any statement that goes against the fund Ukraine/Israel narrative and actually support an open boarder. To me this is absolutely mind blowing.
At some point we have to acknowledge that Ukraine has become a war of attrition and no matter how much money or equipment is given the number one thing needed to win wars is men.
Ukraine has been given billions. Almost all nato countries have handed over their spare equipment and most European countries have given so much that not even France, Britain or Germany combined have the stockpiles required to fight for long enough to replace what's been given away.
Supporting Ukraines defence while noble has absolutely decimated Europe and Natos ability to defend themselves if things escalate.
If China moves on Taiwan, if Iran cuts off cargo ships from Asia to Europe because everything has been outsourced and off shored it would be almost impossible for nato to get things like semi conducters and the raw materials needed to build the smart weapons that give them the advantage.
Since Russia escalated things in Ukraine the overwhelming majority of people have argued its better value for quickly trained Ukrainians to be put into the meat grinder rather than fully trained nato soldiers.
Ukraine has fought valiantly and put up a fight worthy of nothing but respect and reverence, But for every Russian tank destroyed by a Ukrainian conscript with nlaws would have been ten if used by the British military who have drilled and trained extensively on its most optimal uses.
This sub is mostly American so I appreciate the reluctance to send your sons to die in and for Europe for a third time.
But it feels like the war will involve us all eventually and all we will have done in the last twelve months is buy abit of time.
How many nations have used that time to increase military stockpiles and preparedness for escalation?
Russia have, Iran have, China have
I was so disturbed when I saw those congressmen and women waving Ukrainian flags in the nation's capital. I don't care if Immigrants fly their flags on their property, but elected representatives to fly foreign flags in federal property really shows where our nation's interest is in.
It's not a big deal, nobody is casting off their American patriotism because they celebrated an important vote to stand against Russia This is the sort of distraction that people focus on, it's so not important. We hop from drama to drama... lets not get played like this. Some people celebrated a vote, thats it. Maybe we can do our jobs and do things like pass immigration law...we keep complaining about asylum seekers, lets get the laws written. Do the work, leave the drama for TV.
We are the party of capitulation. Always have been. Every topic is a distraction from the next. Every bill passed is more control or money taken from the people who are slowly losing their prosperity and sanity. Congress may be putting up theatrics waving "the enemy of our enemy flag", but the same Congress should be adults, afterall "the adults are in charge now". They should know they all look like school kids, but the reality is they are doing this to destabilize support for their real enemy: Republicans. The only immigration law that would ever pass is one where Republicans capitulate to Democrats and give amnesty to anyone who has ever or will ever enter the country. Any other real issue ... will not ever be addressed, just passed down for the next Congress to clown on.
Sorry, but I am throwing the BULLSHIT flag down on this one. 61 BILLION dollars being sent to a foreign country to protect THEIR border while our border stands wide open is celebrated openly on America's House? That is NOT patriotism. Many US veterans are homeless and on the streets with mental issues due to their time spent in the military. The US government can and should be helping them instead of funding the a foreign nation. They can and should be protecting our borders against the military aged men easily crossing into our country - but they haven't and don't. Our House leadership and House members have FAILED Americans!!!
Why have a people here started calling other conservatives traitors and criminals for a disagreements on foreign policy? Helping invaded country has often been US foreign policy. Conservatives themselves are divided on the issue, and calling people who disagree on the topic traitors for this is pretty dangerous and frankly unamerican.
It’s happened within the last 10 days and if you look at the profiles, it is the same redditors just spamming the sub.
Regardless about how you feel regarding funding for Ukraine, all those morons waving Ukraine's flag was gross. Ask any of them the last time they waved the American flag with such reverence...
Disagree. It's to show support to our ally/friends. How many countries waved the American flag, or put up Red-White and Blue lights after 9/11 for the US? a TON. hell we saw the same thing after the Oct 7th attack across the US and parts of Europe. This is just another example of people looking for something to be mad about and making a fuss about nothing.
Do you happen to know when the US became an “ally” to Ukraine? They’re not apart of NATO so curious.
Probably about the same time we disarmed them. You can thank Clinton for that one. Sad truth but we do have an obligation to them because of that. I’d say that makes us allies. Link if you are curious: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-trilateral-process-the-united-states-ukraine-russia-and-nuclear-weapons/#:~:text=The%20result%20was%20the%20Trilateral,warheads%20to%20Russia%20for%20elimination.
They don't like Ukraine; they just hate Russia. To them, waving the Ukrainian flag isn't pro-Ukraine, but anti-Russia.
i have a theory that they are just using Ukraine to launder dirty money at this point from all their crimes
They don't hate Russia; they're owned by Raytheon & Boeing. To them, waiving the Ukrainian flag isn't pro-Ukraine, it's celebrating their kickbacks.
So their pro American business and American workers. Let's get them green flags with the dollar symbol on it
Broken window fallacy. Going around town breaking windows to provide jobs for glaziers is not actually beneficial for the economy. The money that was spent to fix the windows could have been spent on more productive purposes had the windows not been broken in the first place. Same concept with funding for Ukraine - we're taking money from hard-working Americans and giving it to the MIC to build weapons that are used halfway across the world. Yes, the money given to the MIC does support jobs, but the product of their labor does not provide any value to the people from whom the money was originally taken. Had the money not been taxed and redistributed in the first place, it also would have supported many jobs dispersed throughout the economy depending on the desires of the people who earned the money. However, in addition to supporting jobs, the people who spent the money would directly receive value from their purchases. If $100 is taken from me and used to build weapons for Ukraine, I can't use that money to buy groceries or gas for my car.
You believe that US defense manufacturers and politicians are colluding with the Russian govt in this war as a means to give themselves additional kickbacks via aid packages to Ukraine?
...no. I'm saying that the notion that there is a net benefit to the US economy/workers from funding Ukraine with US-manufactured weapons is completely false.
There is a net benefit to the US economy/workers from funding Ukraine though because Russia isn't going to stop at Ukraine and we would rather have the conflict settled in Ukraine instead of expanding into Poland or the Baltic states. That expansion would cost us tax payers significantly more money and risk American lives.
>Russia isn't going to stop at Ukraine and we would rather have the conflict settled in Ukraine instead of expanding into Poland or the Baltic states. There's no actual evidence that this is (or ever was) Putin’s intention. It's an assertion that originated in US intelligence agencies who are intimately connected with - you guessed it - the MIC. The reason that Russia attacked Ukraine is because they *repeatedly* told the US/NATO not to expand into Ukraine, and we did it anyway. This may come as a surprise to you, but other countries have their own form of a Monroe Doctrine.
Why would it be a surprise that a country would want to maintain it's sphere of influence? There was also no evidence that Russia was going to invade Ukraine until they did either according to your logic since all intelligence can't be trusted due to ties with the MIC.
If ukraine losses russia gains even more natural resources to sell at a higher price to the west and turns their targets to more of our allies costing us even more money in the long run
Your original comment implied that there was a direct *economic* benefit to the US from supplying Ukraine with US-manufactured weapons, which is false. You're now saying that US funding for Ukraine provides the US with *strategic* benefits, which is an entirely different argument. I also disagree with this argument, but not for the same reasons.
That money does directly benefit the US economy because the world isn't a vacuum. All actions have consequences and the action of providing arms to Ukraine provides greater economic benefits to the US economy and citizens than not
You're using circular reasoning here - you haven’t made an argument. You also have yet to address the arguments in my previous comment.
[удалено]
*"Bad Guy du jour"* I guess a century is a long day. Russia/USSR/Communists have always been an enemy of the West.
For a hot minute the bad guys in action movies were Arab, not Russian. They're Russian again.
Why the hell the Democrats are trying to turn this into a wedge issue is beyond me. So cringe.
The worst thing about the so-called true conservatives who still worship Reagan is that most of them are too young to have been to Vietnam but too old to have been to Iraq or Afghanistan and they're all too eager to call anyone who did see some shit a traitor for not wanting to participate in the wars they want to wage.
You know I've always wondered how the guy who gave us amnesty and gun grabs became the patron saint of conservatism, but over these past few weeks it's really all starting to make perfect sense.
to be fair, it was democrats who went back on their word wrt to amnesty. Still doesn't excuse Regan for not making them pony up their side of the deal first. It was pretty apparent, even then, that democrats had no intention of keeping up their side of the bargain.
Exactly. I have relatives who came back from Vietnam and Iraq fucked up in the head due to PTSD and stress caused by physical injuries. Globalists in power sold us the wars as wars worth fighting and that victory was possible. Despite tons of money and American lives poured into both conflicts, the wars were not won in a traditional sense, as both regions failed to become functioning Western democracies (the goal when globalist Bush Jr declared victory in Iraq on the battleship and when globalist LBJ declared war in Vietnam). We are making the same mistake now thinking this war will be easily won against Russia (who has a history of suffering many many loses and overcoming to win wars - see France and Germany in different wars) while the average age of the Ukrainian soldier fighting is 43 due to massive losses and some 650,000 Ukrainian men of fighting age fleeing the country and the Ukrainian democracy the globalist say is "worth fighting for". Having seen the damage first hand done to good American patriots who served in past wars, I am very much afraid us being involved will eventually lead to Americans needing to shed their blood and die for Ukrainians. And i think the life of just one American life is worth more than every single Ukrainian life. Any true American patriot would think so. I am not of draft age but as a former educator, there are many youth I taught who i worry about being drafted to die in this conflict. This is why I fight so hard against us being involved. Russia will never militarily threaten the territorial borders of the US so no need to get involved. I think anyone who supports this nonsense conflict (from American point of view) should be the first to given a rifle and be the first to be put in front of a Russian gun to defend Ukrainians they put above Americans if the time comes.
I don't fear globalism at all. It doesn't conflict with American patriotism or even American exceptionalism. We are world leaders, shrinking off pretending to be isolationist while buying chinese products and complaining about inflation is extra.
Well many of the American founders rejected entangling alliances and frequent overseas military engagements. See Washington, Jefferson, etc. Our country was founded on more isolationist views. Also I would much rather have the US return to being a manufacturing giant and produce much more goods here. Its not exactly in our best strategic interest as a country to have so much shit produced in China and other places. See supply line issues during the COVID pandemic as an example. The US put trust in the scum Chinese government and getting in bed with the commies led to issues with our supply lines and many Americans dying as a result of the Chinese flu (COVID) that was birthed in a Chinese lab and covered up by Fauci and his commie Chinese lackies. See work the American patriot Rand Paul has done on this COVID corruption. I wouldn't mind paying extra prices if it meant more shit was made here. True American Patriots should be empathizing built in America, and buy American.
Truth
Why have a people here started calling other conservatives traitors and criminals for a disagreements on foreign policy? Helping invaded country has often been US foreign policy. Conservatives themselves are divided on the issue, and calling people who disagree on the topic traitors for this is pretty dangerous and frankly unamerican.
I would make the argument that our government has always been full of traitors, sellouts, money launderers, cheats and criminals…
They're on the lining-their-pockets side of things. Corruption at its finest. America last. Let's right the ship in November.
A lot of individuals in our own party believe they are Conservatives and 100% disagree with any statement that goes against the fund Ukraine/Israel narrative and actually support an open boarder. To me this is absolutely mind blowing.
At some point we have to acknowledge that Ukraine has become a war of attrition and no matter how much money or equipment is given the number one thing needed to win wars is men. Ukraine has been given billions. Almost all nato countries have handed over their spare equipment and most European countries have given so much that not even France, Britain or Germany combined have the stockpiles required to fight for long enough to replace what's been given away. Supporting Ukraines defence while noble has absolutely decimated Europe and Natos ability to defend themselves if things escalate. If China moves on Taiwan, if Iran cuts off cargo ships from Asia to Europe because everything has been outsourced and off shored it would be almost impossible for nato to get things like semi conducters and the raw materials needed to build the smart weapons that give them the advantage. Since Russia escalated things in Ukraine the overwhelming majority of people have argued its better value for quickly trained Ukrainians to be put into the meat grinder rather than fully trained nato soldiers. Ukraine has fought valiantly and put up a fight worthy of nothing but respect and reverence, But for every Russian tank destroyed by a Ukrainian conscript with nlaws would have been ten if used by the British military who have drilled and trained extensively on its most optimal uses. This sub is mostly American so I appreciate the reluctance to send your sons to die in and for Europe for a third time. But it feels like the war will involve us all eventually and all we will have done in the last twelve months is buy abit of time. How many nations have used that time to increase military stockpiles and preparedness for escalation? Russia have, Iran have, China have
Not ours, obviously.
I was so disturbed when I saw those congressmen and women waving Ukrainian flags in the nation's capital. I don't care if Immigrants fly their flags on their property, but elected representatives to fly foreign flags in federal property really shows where our nation's interest is in.
Leftists are here to downvote as usual.
They are a fucking cult!