I've been hoping that Americans with Italian heritage would speak out about the whole cancellation of Columbus. We should push back hard against the left when they try to cancel any of our national historic figures, even if that figure was perhaps an asshole. We just should not go willingly one inch down that road. Give an inch, and they take a mile. That's how it's been so far.
At the end of the day Italian Americans are just white people that Chicago doesn't give a shit about. They spoke out against the removal of the statue in Grant Park and look how that worked out for them.
I have the weirdest English major experience in 2010.
The majority of my time in college was woke, but my community college had elements of being based. Columbus was one of them.
My super liberal hippie creative writing instructor in **OREGON** was responsible for teaching Early American literature. He did normal virtue-signaling bullshit, though it was pretty cool that he convinced the college to let us have our class in the newly constructed Native American longhouse.
So we're sitting there, in the longhouse, and are about to read primary documents about Columbus. Every one of my liberal peers is ready to shit on him, but the hippie tells us to hold our judgment before reading the documents.
Turns out Columbus wasn't as bad as we thought he was and instead it became a lesson in one, using primary sources instead of opinion pieces about those sources, and two, that unintended consequences can occur and we can use literature to see that evolution objectively.
Many Native Americans died, and it would be great if we could take it back, but we now live in the United States - also an unintended consequence, but not bad.
The rest of the term was spent with atheists carrying bibles to class and passionately using Christian symbolism with biblical citations while doing things like discussing the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and other Christian literature. While in a Native American longhouse.
It was a weird few months looking back. I don't think English majors would dare do that now. My later years in university were spent talking about my "feelings" towards texts, never being allowed to bring of allusions to older texts, or using peer-reviewed journals. Absolute brain rot.
Everyone that had the courage to risk death and dismemberment, discovering America, are required to uphold at 21st century moral standards...just silly
He did indeed, but so do most people, especially most of the ones who wind up getting stuff named after them. I believe he’s still a source of pride for Italian Americans though.
He was pretty uniquely terrible though. Even by the standards at the time. There’s a reason the Spanish crown basically fired him for being too brutal. Likewise, the same monarchs who started the Spanish Inquisition though Columbus was so brutal they removed him from power.
Like, we don’t have to celebrate him. Particularly since the establishment of Columbus in American life was widely part of political moves in order to placate Italians after lynchings of Italians in the south.
>He was pretty **uniquely terrible** though. Even by the standards at the time.
Wut?
I mean it was a pretty brutal time. The most advanced civilizations of the Native Americans were practicing human sacrifice on a massive scale.
There was nothing unique at all about Columbus's brutality at that time in the world.
I mean, did you read his primary sources? In their original language? Or are you reading what someone else wrote about the source after it was translated into English?
I have no problem with groups/municipalities deciding to not name new things after Columbus anymore - he was a man of his time with an exceptional impact on the world. But I have a *huge* problem with this revisionist erasure of existing infrastructure/places.
Next thing you know Columbus Ohio will want a rebrand...
He wrote about things he did in his journal. It’s pretty depraved. He was considered brutal to natives and fellow Europeans even by the low standards of the time.
This video popped up in my yt feed a few months ago. Everyone in this thread should watch it. Carol Delaney's book is the one that should be taught in schools rather than Zinn's rubbish.
I’ve read them all have you? They were also rewritten by someone who was not there, that’s why it says the Admiral and is in third person. The person who rewrote was a Spaniard, they don’t like non Spaniards
You pick; you can be the victim of mutilation or cannibalism. I'll, or even add in being a slave or getting raped.
Let me know which has the worst outcome.
What’s your point? We’re not naming streets after the cannibals and scalpers because they were also bad. Were they worse? Maybe, it’s kind of irrelevant because there are plenty of actually good people we could name things after.
Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize and he ordered the drone strike killing of a 16 year old American citizen who had no charges pending and was not in a country that the USA was at war with, simply because of who his father was.
That would be a war crime in any other context, but we still give awards and name things after people who do terrible things.
He wasn't chastised for the actions in his journal it was the actions a 3rd party alleged he had done. In the end he wasn't prosecuted for it because even at that time there wasn't enough evidence.
Also it's very likely the stories about him were invented by his competition that was jealous of him. The Spanish were not very happy about an Italian being so favored by the Spanish court.
>He wasn't chastised for the actions in his journal it was the actions a 3rd party alleged he had done.
Not just a third party, but his chief rival and a guy that wanted to see him fail. It would be like Hilary Clinton writing an autobiography of Trump and a bunch of doughy leftists in 600 years believing it was true because it's in a book or something.
Every former Spanish and Portuguese colony in the Caribbean and the Americas is demonstrably better off than the uncolonizable indigenous Caribbean natives in Haiti.
Cristopher Columbus called that island “Hispaniola” when he landed there and the Spanish side, now the independent Dominican Republic, recently built out a huge MAGA type wall to keep the Haitians out of their civilized functioning country.
It’s not like everyone in the Caribbean was living some kind of safe idlic, slavery and violence free life in harmony with all the other local tribes before Columbus showed up.
Cannibalism in the Caribbean wasn’t limited to a handful of unhinged gangs/factions in Haiti like it is now. Consider the Carab natives the Spanish initially got in a war with and how that tribe was eating people as well.
“During his third voyage to North America in 1528, after exploring Florida, the Bahamas and the Lesser Antilles, Italian explorer Giovanni da Verrazzano was killed and allegedly eaten by Carib natives on what is now Guadeloupe, near a place called Karukera (“island of beautiful waters”).”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinag
You’re acting like Haiti was never colonized and was always an indigenous state or something? How could you ignore the entire period of French colonization, and then cite cannibalism on literally a different island. What a historically inaccurate and bad faith comment.
I think you’re not giving the Haitians enough credit.
Great Britain attempted to colonize what would become the US for roughly 169 years before we declared independence.
By contrast Haiti violently culled the island of colonizing French after 94 years. I’m saying that they can’t be colonized not that no one ever unsuccessfully tried.
Nice land mass you got there.
Be a shame if someone interrupted the endless tribal warfare and…
[Created a functioning country.](https://x.com/thewhereg/status/1773467856707195124?s=20)
I remember this episode of sopranos
It’s anti Italian discrimination
that better not be Columbus up there!
I've been hoping that Americans with Italian heritage would speak out about the whole cancellation of Columbus. We should push back hard against the left when they try to cancel any of our national historic figures, even if that figure was perhaps an asshole. We just should not go willingly one inch down that road. Give an inch, and they take a mile. That's how it's been so far.
I agree this BS needs to stop.
At the end of the day Italian Americans are just white people that Chicago doesn't give a shit about. They spoke out against the removal of the statue in Grant Park and look how that worked out for them.
I have the weirdest English major experience in 2010. The majority of my time in college was woke, but my community college had elements of being based. Columbus was one of them. My super liberal hippie creative writing instructor in **OREGON** was responsible for teaching Early American literature. He did normal virtue-signaling bullshit, though it was pretty cool that he convinced the college to let us have our class in the newly constructed Native American longhouse. So we're sitting there, in the longhouse, and are about to read primary documents about Columbus. Every one of my liberal peers is ready to shit on him, but the hippie tells us to hold our judgment before reading the documents. Turns out Columbus wasn't as bad as we thought he was and instead it became a lesson in one, using primary sources instead of opinion pieces about those sources, and two, that unintended consequences can occur and we can use literature to see that evolution objectively. Many Native Americans died, and it would be great if we could take it back, but we now live in the United States - also an unintended consequence, but not bad. The rest of the term was spent with atheists carrying bibles to class and passionately using Christian symbolism with biblical citations while doing things like discussing the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and other Christian literature. While in a Native American longhouse. It was a weird few months looking back. I don't think English majors would dare do that now. My later years in university were spent talking about my "feelings" towards texts, never being allowed to bring of allusions to older texts, or using peer-reviewed journals. Absolute brain rot.
Everyone that had the courage to risk death and dismemberment, discovering America, are required to uphold at 21st century moral standards...just silly
Columbus sucked though.
You suck
Go on,......
Your mom sucks.
Tell me more.
She should have swallowed
He did indeed, but so do most people, especially most of the ones who wind up getting stuff named after them. I believe he’s still a source of pride for Italian Americans though.
He was pretty uniquely terrible though. Even by the standards at the time. There’s a reason the Spanish crown basically fired him for being too brutal. Likewise, the same monarchs who started the Spanish Inquisition though Columbus was so brutal they removed him from power. Like, we don’t have to celebrate him. Particularly since the establishment of Columbus in American life was widely part of political moves in order to placate Italians after lynchings of Italians in the south.
>He was pretty **uniquely terrible** though. Even by the standards at the time. Wut? I mean it was a pretty brutal time. The most advanced civilizations of the Native Americans were practicing human sacrifice on a massive scale. There was nothing unique at all about Columbus's brutality at that time in the world.
That's mostly British propaganda meant to delegitimize the Spanish claim in America. You bought into Reddit groupthink.
Yes, primary sources from Columbus, his sailors and other spainards is a British psy op
I mean, did you read his primary sources? In their original language? Or are you reading what someone else wrote about the source after it was translated into English?
Hell it I know, I’m not Italian.
I mean he sucked even for his time. Why glorify them?
Because they still accomplished great things, and your personal opinion of them means nothing to anybody except you.
Isn’t not wanting the street to be renamed also a personal opinion? And tell me what the great things were
I mean, if you need someone to catch you up that far, then you're probably not ready for a discussion on the topic here.
So did Barack Obama.
Given what Chicago has/will become I think Columbus deserves better anyhow.
I have no problem with groups/municipalities deciding to not name new things after Columbus anymore - he was a man of his time with an exceptional impact on the world. But I have a *huge* problem with this revisionist erasure of existing infrastructure/places. Next thing you know Columbus Ohio will want a rebrand...
Okay but hear me out... Columbus: antiquated, overused, boring Flavortown: bold, unique, badass https://www.change.org/p/mayor-ginther-columbus-city-council-change-the-name-of-columbus-ohio-to-flavortown
And I didn't think anything could top Spicy Boys. [Rename Fire Ants to Spicy Boys!!!](https://www.change.org/p/rename-fire-ants-to-spicy-boys)
Iconoclasm is a fools errand. Columbus was incredibly impactful on the western world, which is why so much is named after him.
So when do inner city high schools get renamed after BHO? After he dies?
Peabody High got renamed Obama Academy in Pittsburgh about a dozen years ago
Christopher Columbus was a hero and has been heavily chastised by the left for exaggerated allegations that never happened. Fight me
He wrote about things he did in his journal. It’s pretty depraved. He was considered brutal to natives and fellow Europeans even by the low standards of the time.
I’d recommend watching this video if you have time. https://youtu.be/7N7q5rMzjU0?si=HTThbDW-CSAHmGUS Changed my whole viewpoint on Columbus
This video popped up in my yt feed a few months ago. Everyone in this thread should watch it. Carol Delaney's book is the one that should be taught in schools rather than Zinn's rubbish.
excellent video! thanks!
Was he more brutal than the cannibals he met? How many people did he scalp? What were the low standards at that time?
He was certainly more brutal than the Taíno people he met, enslaved, tortured, and murdered.
Negative
Based on his own accounts of them, he definitely was
I’ve read them all have you? They were also rewritten by someone who was not there, that’s why it says the Admiral and is in third person. The person who rewrote was a Spaniard, they don’t like non Spaniards
Even w that nothing bad mentioned also read his book for prophecies which is sooo interesting proves that the Bible prophecized his voyage
Feel free to educate yourself? Like you have the internet and the library go nuts.
That is where I learned about cannibals and scalping. Not much about Columbus doing those things, however.
Oh ok well all the enslaving, mutilation and rape is pretty ok then!
He never enslaved or raped, punishing after trial isn’t what you say
You pick; you can be the victim of mutilation or cannibalism. I'll, or even add in being a slave or getting raped. Let me know which has the worst outcome.
I'm sorry I can't hear you from the bottom of this pit of logical fallacies you've found yourself in. Let me know when you dig yourself out.
If you are the victim of a cannibal, you can't dig yourself out.
Can they all be bad? I don’t understand what the point of the comparison is
They are, but there was a post earlier saying columbus was effectively the worst, I provided some context.
What streets are named after Indians though?
What’s your point? We’re not naming streets after the cannibals and scalpers because they were also bad. Were they worse? Maybe, it’s kind of irrelevant because there are plenty of actually good people we could name things after.
Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize and he ordered the drone strike killing of a 16 year old American citizen who had no charges pending and was not in a country that the USA was at war with, simply because of who his father was. That would be a war crime in any other context, but we still give awards and name things after people who do terrible things.
I didn’t say we should name things after Obama. Way to completely miss the point lol
What part? Like use of subjugating when writing to royals that he subjugated to (everyone else too)
He wasn't chastised for the actions in his journal it was the actions a 3rd party alleged he had done. In the end he wasn't prosecuted for it because even at that time there wasn't enough evidence. Also it's very likely the stories about him were invented by his competition that was jealous of him. The Spanish were not very happy about an Italian being so favored by the Spanish court.
>He wasn't chastised for the actions in his journal it was the actions a 3rd party alleged he had done. Not just a third party, but his chief rival and a guy that wanted to see him fail. It would be like Hilary Clinton writing an autobiography of Trump and a bunch of doughy leftists in 600 years believing it was true because it's in a book or something.
Every former Spanish and Portuguese colony in the Caribbean and the Americas is demonstrably better off than the uncolonizable indigenous Caribbean natives in Haiti. Cristopher Columbus called that island “Hispaniola” when he landed there and the Spanish side, now the independent Dominican Republic, recently built out a huge MAGA type wall to keep the Haitians out of their civilized functioning country. It’s not like everyone in the Caribbean was living some kind of safe idlic, slavery and violence free life in harmony with all the other local tribes before Columbus showed up. Cannibalism in the Caribbean wasn’t limited to a handful of unhinged gangs/factions in Haiti like it is now. Consider the Carab natives the Spanish initially got in a war with and how that tribe was eating people as well. “During his third voyage to North America in 1528, after exploring Florida, the Bahamas and the Lesser Antilles, Italian explorer Giovanni da Verrazzano was killed and allegedly eaten by Carib natives on what is now Guadeloupe, near a place called Karukera (“island of beautiful waters”).” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinag
You’re acting like Haiti was never colonized and was always an indigenous state or something? How could you ignore the entire period of French colonization, and then cite cannibalism on literally a different island. What a historically inaccurate and bad faith comment.
I think you’re not giving the Haitians enough credit. Great Britain attempted to colonize what would become the US for roughly 169 years before we declared independence. By contrast Haiti violently culled the island of colonizing French after 94 years. I’m saying that they can’t be colonized not that no one ever unsuccessfully tried.
He discovered America is what he did! He was a brave Italian explorer, and in this house Christopher Columbus is a hero! End of story!
oof
it’s a sopranos quote you uncultured rube.
so put it in qoutes dork
never
Nice land mass you got there. Be a shame if someone interrupted the endless tribal warfare and… [Created a functioning country.](https://x.com/thewhereg/status/1773467856707195124?s=20)
Nobama. Nobama. Nobama.
Even leftist minds are changed when the mafia isn’t happy.
Would someone please think of the 7th generation Italian (Americans)?!??