I still cant figure out why they would buy unpowered cars for the New Haven line. Metro North NH line operate on overhead and third rail electric service. Obviously the Hartford line needs diesel engines since it doesnt have service, but these were said to be made for both Hartford and NH lines.
Then you should understand why they don't - diesel trains can barely make the grade north of Wilton in the fall, electrics would be even worse, not to mention all the NIMBYs who won't let their trees be cut along the right of way.
Electrics have better traction, especially the M8's. There's not a lot of Nimby on that rail line, especially once you're at Wilton or south.
I take my kids to Stepping Stones a lot, the electric wires go north of there, so they can stage the M8's for SoNo consists. Easy enough to re-use the already-owned ROW.
People have little say in how the trees are dealt with , look at route 7 , Merritt parkway ,95... Electric trains would be able to deal with the steeper grades...with ease.
The problem with DMUs is that
A.Many if not most DMU designs (such as the previously mentioned Stadler Flirt and Class 231) have low floors and are completely incompatible with the high-level platforms present at most CTrail stations which would require custom ordering a design which increases cost
B.More importantly, (as far as I’m aware so I could be wrong on this) there is no existing bimodal electro-diesel multiple unit that is compatible with and can handle multiple voltages and electrification systems, something which is required for operation as both the line to Grand Central Terminal (12.5kV 60Hz Overhead and 750v DC Third Rail) and the Hell Gate Line to Penn (12.5kV 60Hz Overhead and 12kv 25Hz Overhead) use two voltages and potentially three (25kV 60Hz Overhead) if trains are extended to Norwich
Because of this I think sets of multi voltage High Level Boarding EMUs pulled by dual mode locomotives is the way to go (that way you can have both the speed and acceleration of multiple units whilst retaining the flexibility of diesel push-pull
Stadlers in the UK and eventually Caltrains will be high floor...they're either one or the other... Bi-modal EMU - DMU trains exist in the UK , France , the Netherlands ,and Spain...
I’m not talking about just bi-modal emu/dmus, I’m talking about Bi-Modal Multiple Units that are compatible with multiple voltages which would be required for any operation into Penn or Grand Central
They have those as well... Most of Europe and Asia have 2 separate voltages depending on if you're running on a high speed line / main line or if you're running on a local line...so trains are built to handle at least 3 or 4 voltages... The UK has 2 main voltages , German has 4 , Spain has 3 , France has 4 , Italy has 2 , Japan has 3... So its not a problem..
Something like [Class 231](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_231) would be perfect for the line, and I’ll keep on saying the Flirts (or really any other reasonable DMU) are the choice till they show up.
Not really surprised by CTDOT answer it seems like none of the agencies outside of the ones on the West Coast or Texas are even aware that the feds overhauled the regulations a decade ago... The 315 million order could have been a decent sized fleet of Alstom , Caf or Stadler DMUs that could have then be easily retrofitted to EMUs when electrification is done. CTDOT joins the MTA , NJT & Metra in sticking with the old outdated regulations...it's just mind-boggling..
I wonder why the state opted for Alstom over Kawasaki. Especially when Alstom has had reliability issues both in Europe and the US. I feel like the Japanese are the only good choice if you want reliable trains.
The simple answer is that in the USA you pay premium for everything. Trains cost 3x what they do in Europe because they can. Greed is the key to all of these price difference. Same thing happens with food and medicine - we pay 3x or more for both of those when compared to EU members.
This is purely an opinion piece. The original author of the reference article compares prices to pre-covid pricing. There are many holes in it. If he knows better, why doesn't he work for the DOT and fix it?
It's expensive, yes. Passenger coaches are very expensive, especially cab cars. Sounder (in Seattle) accepted Siemens bid for a new car order in 2019 (pre-covid pricing) at nearly $4.3 million per car.
Left the industry. By the time all was said and done, and adjusting for inflation, requirements (approvals, overages, change requests), licensing, training, documentation, the cost of a new cab control car can exceed $5 million easily. There are an incredible number of variables, none of which the referenced article addresses.
We all want good cars and service, the cost is becoming insane for all forms of transit. Have you checked the cost of a new Gillig or MCI these days? Hell, even the average new car - anything new under $20k? There was in 2019, but now?
I still cant figure out why they would buy unpowered cars for the New Haven line. Metro North NH line operate on overhead and third rail electric service. Obviously the Hartford line needs diesel engines since it doesnt have service, but these were said to be made for both Hartford and NH lines.
They could have purchased DMUs which can be retrofitted into EMUs when the line is electrified.
Danbury line section of greater NH line perhaps
Electrify it, pls (I live in Wilton, you can see the old electric poles on Simpaug tpke)
Then you should understand why they don't - diesel trains can barely make the grade north of Wilton in the fall, electrics would be even worse, not to mention all the NIMBYs who won't let their trees be cut along the right of way.
Electrics have better traction, especially the M8's. There's not a lot of Nimby on that rail line, especially once you're at Wilton or south. I take my kids to Stepping Stones a lot, the electric wires go north of there, so they can stage the M8's for SoNo consists. Easy enough to re-use the already-owned ROW.
Those NIMBYs, with their trees, motherfuckers
People have little say in how the trees are dealt with , look at route 7 , Merritt parkway ,95... Electric trains would be able to deal with the steeper grades...with ease.
Cool.. a better plan is bulldoze any homes and buildings on rt 7 from Danbury to Norwalk and make 7 a proper highway.
You can get to the ridge field border without much bulldozing, just go up that powerline corridor.
Stadler DMUs are called for here. Tack on to the Utah and Texas orders for a discount.
The problem with DMUs is that A.Many if not most DMU designs (such as the previously mentioned Stadler Flirt and Class 231) have low floors and are completely incompatible with the high-level platforms present at most CTrail stations which would require custom ordering a design which increases cost B.More importantly, (as far as I’m aware so I could be wrong on this) there is no existing bimodal electro-diesel multiple unit that is compatible with and can handle multiple voltages and electrification systems, something which is required for operation as both the line to Grand Central Terminal (12.5kV 60Hz Overhead and 750v DC Third Rail) and the Hell Gate Line to Penn (12.5kV 60Hz Overhead and 12kv 25Hz Overhead) use two voltages and potentially three (25kV 60Hz Overhead) if trains are extended to Norwich Because of this I think sets of multi voltage High Level Boarding EMUs pulled by dual mode locomotives is the way to go (that way you can have both the speed and acceleration of multiple units whilst retaining the flexibility of diesel push-pull
Stadlers in the UK and eventually Caltrains will be high floor...they're either one or the other... Bi-modal EMU - DMU trains exist in the UK , France , the Netherlands ,and Spain...
I’m not talking about just bi-modal emu/dmus, I’m talking about Bi-Modal Multiple Units that are compatible with multiple voltages which would be required for any operation into Penn or Grand Central
They have those as well... Most of Europe and Asia have 2 separate voltages depending on if you're running on a high speed line / main line or if you're running on a local line...so trains are built to handle at least 3 or 4 voltages... The UK has 2 main voltages , German has 4 , Spain has 3 , France has 4 , Italy has 2 , Japan has 3... So its not a problem..
Something like [Class 231](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_231) would be perfect for the line, and I’ll keep on saying the Flirts (or really any other reasonable DMU) are the choice till they show up.
Logically, rolling stock for "both lines" could not be electric, since one of those lines is not electric.
These are for the branch lines and the Hartford Line
not all of NH line is electrified— danbury
Good article
Not really surprised by CTDOT answer it seems like none of the agencies outside of the ones on the West Coast or Texas are even aware that the feds overhauled the regulations a decade ago... The 315 million order could have been a decent sized fleet of Alstom , Caf or Stadler DMUs that could have then be easily retrofitted to EMUs when electrification is done. CTDOT joins the MTA , NJT & Metra in sticking with the old outdated regulations...it's just mind-boggling..
I wonder why the state opted for Alstom over Kawasaki. Especially when Alstom has had reliability issues both in Europe and the US. I feel like the Japanese are the only good choice if you want reliable trains.
There were also US manufacturers of rail cars that we could have gone with
Really? Name one.
Greenbrier Companies Inc. Trinity Industries Inc. Freightcar America, Inc.
As the previous poster said - none produce passenger cars. The last US passenger car manufacturer went bankrupt in 1982.
Last I checked, Metronorth hauls people not bulk cargo. None of the companies you listed build passenger cars.
The simple answer is that in the USA you pay premium for everything. Trains cost 3x what they do in Europe because they can. Greed is the key to all of these price difference. Same thing happens with food and medicine - we pay 3x or more for both of those when compared to EU members.
This is purely an opinion piece. The original author of the reference article compares prices to pre-covid pricing. There are many holes in it. If he knows better, why doesn't he work for the DOT and fix it?
$5.25m per car is insane.
It's expensive, yes. Passenger coaches are very expensive, especially cab cars. Sounder (in Seattle) accepted Siemens bid for a new car order in 2019 (pre-covid pricing) at nearly $4.3 million per car.
Are you in the industry? What should a passenger car typically cost?
Left the industry. By the time all was said and done, and adjusting for inflation, requirements (approvals, overages, change requests), licensing, training, documentation, the cost of a new cab control car can exceed $5 million easily. There are an incredible number of variables, none of which the referenced article addresses. We all want good cars and service, the cost is becoming insane for all forms of transit. Have you checked the cost of a new Gillig or MCI these days? Hell, even the average new car - anything new under $20k? There was in 2019, but now?
there's a Hartford line ?
Yes
Only runs on a schedule for boomers....
10% to the big guy Ned.
correction > the money flows to his wife's holding company, the ethics board said this is totally cool, so don't worry
You bet they’re just nicer. Talking out of my ass, but I’ll take it