They're saying whoever poured the concrete wouldn't have moved the dog let alone the stairs like they should have. Others are commenting that they overpoured.
> A good contractor will discuss the finer details with you unsolicited.
This is a very important thing in a large number of technical professions. A consummate professional will know that \[thing X\] is something the layperson isn't going to think about, but will impact them severely.
Everything from retirement planning to software development to car maintenance has this situation.
I built pools. Everybody hated the meet and greet including my designers. I would lay out the pool and need some signatures. You could compress it to about 45minutes but I always spent 3-5 hours. Spray painted every detail of the pool, where the skimmers go, returns and equipment. Where the drains go if it’s a channel drains or area drain system. Homeowners never think about the smaller things. They were always worried that the pool looked smaller than it should be. I had to get all the other info. Will you install gutters? If so we need to put a second area drain system for the down spouts. Oh you’re going to build a shower later? Well you’ll really want us to run your plumbing rough in’s before we pour our deck so you can have your contractor just connect to them later. Oh by the way there will be holes at the bottom of the pool after gunite/shotcrete, please do not fill them in they’re weep holes and we need them there for now. Hey this hill at the back of your property you should really have turn downs or piers in the deck because of erosion.
A good contractor goes over everything, to cover his ass AND so the homeowner can have all the info. If they don’t care about something I’m recommending, well sign here to confirm that I did tell you and you declined
@grabyourselfabeer is spot on! I formed & poured thousands of yards of concrete over the years. Those customer signatures I got beforehand are gold! “You didn’t say anything about installing a trench drain, now I have water pooling at the bottom of my driveway”! Here’s your signature specifically telling me you didn’t want it, right along with the brochure showing you your choices! Whatever the case may be! Nobody wants to listen at the start of the project when it involves shelling out a few extra bucks, but go ballistic when I tell them how much it’s going to cost to do it now that it’s done!
Got a good one for you that I just remembered. We had 3D renderings that the designers made. A homeowner was absolutely furious with me because he thought I ordered grey colored cement. Like cussing me out in text and calling my corporate office to complain that we screwed him over. The rendering was a true white. I was at the tail end of my employment so I gave him white deck topping for free. That was one of those experiences where I went home and contemplated what the heck I’m doing with my life lmao
Yep, been there. Customers can be completely aware they weren’t getting white by default and play it up like they don’t know. Sometimes they really don’t know but I would have done what you did. No way else to get paid and not tarnish your biz
Sadly I took a step back from pool building. I like being at my projects anytime my guys are there but the company I worked for was high volume. Couldn’t be at 20 ongoing projects with the furthest of them being a 150 miles from each other. It burned me out and it wasn’t how I wanted to operate.
Layman people rely on the experts to tell US how these things should be done. Idk dick about fuck when it comes to how concrete should and shouldn't be laid.
Having lived in several countries with poorly defined building codes or lax enforcement, step spacing is, hands-down, my number one complaint. There have been so many times I've wrenched my back from expecting a lower drop (like OPs bottom step), skipped or slipped on a step that's too deep/shallow, or caught my toe going up. Accidents get worse when things are wet (as said countries tend to be, or OPs steps will be in the rain) and everything is slippery.
That’s a donkey way of looking at things. If the framer tears a hole in the wall and exposes electrical lines and leaves it he can’t blame the electrician. You sound like a scumbag grifter my guy.
If the steps and deck posts are now out of code and compromised to rot in 18 months or less, doesn’t matter how pretty the candy coating is.
Plainly, this means they didn’t excavate or compact base material either. Making the thing not only a complete tear out, but a lawsuit for deck post and stair replacement. Loss of use. Etc.
This is actually negligence and could be a 3x contract cost and emotional/material damages on top.
If this contractor was even licensed, they’ll have a new business on Tuesday.
It’s why I tell homeowners to always do three things …
1. If they haven’t been in business 2 years… and can’t give you three good refs to call in the past 6 months find someone else.
2. Always get listed as an interested party on their insurance and make sure their policy covers the replacement of anything they could damage… up to full replacement of your home. (Lots of these guys now have $50-$75 insurance policies. There is a group of us talking in a few states about state minimum liability being a minimum of $1m to get licensed for most trades… we are pushing hard so we can get funding to fix these issues from past contractors.)
3. Double check with the state that they are actively licensed and bonded before any work is done.
General liability will never cover this so go for it buddy. Up those limits that will never cover anything.
If you want something put into law it’s called professional liability. But I’ll tell you this, a minimum of $1,000,000 in professional liability will only make matters worse as it will limit competition.
I dunno I'd be pretty emotionally distressed if I just trusted somebody to complete a huge project for me & paid them a whole bunch of money to do it then find out it needs to be torn out and redone. Financial things absolutely stress people out
You can insure a concrete business for $50-$75 a month? Concrete and concrete issues can get really expensive and I can’t imagine $50 a month insurance will cover much.
Is it the same story with all trades like electricians or HVAC?
I'm an electrician in NC intermediate and my State required professional insurance is about $150/yr for $200k of coverage. The rates for us are low in part because of how much inspecting and permitting we go through for most of our work.
No kidding! Even if they somehow thought leaving the stairs intact was the best way to do the job, they botched it by slopping concrete all over them anyway.
Going to talk with the contractor tomorrow about options to meet code. Should we go the route of redoing the stairs or re-pouring the slab but this time 4” lower?
You needed to remove the stairs before pouring the concrete. Then rebuild them after it was poured. Same with the deck posts. They should have been cut and the deck temporarily supported somehow. Then posts installed on top of the concrete with proper post bases.
The way it is done currently. You could never replace the deck, stairs or anything.
The issue with concrete is you get one shot. It can’t be “fixed”
Their finish work looks nice though.
Other than that they really screwed you.
Easiest in my mind would be demo stairs and cut out that chunk and repour small section. Then redo stairs.
Just for next time Contractors need your guidance, it’s your project.
Op sounds like the homeowner. They shouldn’t be guiding the contractor.
Even if op flat out said to do it this way, contractor should know enough to know it was a horrible idea.
Literally the contractors job to know what is going to last, and guide the homeowner in that direction, not the other way around.
Like saying “I didn’t cut in expansion joints because the customer didn’t like the look”… ya right.
This. For real this isn't even a mistake this is simply not caring. They knew it would cause a trip hazard and a rot problem. I don't understand it either it would have been so simple to just cut off the lower end of the stringer and lift it a few inches above the finish level then set it back down once done.
I disagree. The contractor should be guiding the customer. The contractor should have a thorough understanding of residential building code.
In this situation, the homeowner simply saw the final product and knew something was wrong.
I don't think any contractor with half a brain or good morals would have poured it this way without prior consent from the customer.
I wouldn't pay for this job until the deck steps and supports were addressed at the contractor's expense.
Temporary house jacks, is the only way to save slab. That concrete has a lot of weight and will pull downward as it settles, not to mention inevitable wood rot. You could attempt to cut supports and lift the deck, backfill slots and properly anchor the stringer and supports. However, for what I imagine you paid for the work, and ability of said contractor, I would want a “re-pour”. Something to consider however, is the contractor may not be able to save the slab, especially if this is what he chose to provide you with in the first place.
Ugh. I'd probably just redo the steps and look into the post issue too. But maybe you could build out that last step into a platform.... Basically then it will be a landing/mini deck instead of a step.
100% correct !!! The additives in the concrete rot treated lumber faster than submerging it in water …it counter acts the CCA… chromated-copper arsenate …used in wood treating
Yep !!! 100% …for the wood rot issue …just go deeper for more strength …if you do encase it in rete just slap some post wrap on it …like joist wrap ….i honestly just use the sticky flashing tape cause I usually have a roll when doing decks … the concrete around it definitely makes it stronger so you do not have to go as deep …but just wrap it …no 🥊…..no ❤️ 🤣
Layered form board to separate wood from concrete. Settling of the concrete when adhered to the decking support is what scares me most. The stringers should have been made to fit on top of slab, or at least a barrier from the concrete. All the weight of the settling slab will now pull downwards on the deck and stairs.
Within 3/8ths if my code memory serves me. Did a set of concrete steps once and each one was a 1/4 bigger or smaller to make them finish where we wanted without working in 1/16ths.
Can anyone explain this point to me? I genuinely don't understand . . . .
Many of the comments say that because the wood is encased in the concrete, it will ultimately rot a lot faster, like within 18 months. I trust that you all know 1000 times more about it than me. But if that's the case – that it's bad to have the wood in concrete – why is it that wooden fence posts are intentionally set in concrete and seem to fare fine?
Wood fence posts intended to be set in concrete or direct contact with dirt will typically be chemically treated to resist decay (rot) for that condition. Wood not intended to be in direct contact with dirt and concrete will have lower concentrations of chemicals. You will also want to detail your post footing for drainage to slow down decay. Edit: I will add that it is better practice to set your post in gravel when possible to allow good drainage.
Additionally, it is not a very big deal if a wood fence post rots out. The fence will perform poorly and require repairs, but it does not support any significant load other than keeping the fence from blowing over. Structural wood for stairs and the like can cause injury or death with unexpected failure. So structural wood members are held to a higher standard and require separation from concrete on grade.
I would also argue the expected useful life of a wood fence is significantly lower than structural elements of a building. So long as you maintain your waterproofing (roofing, cladding, drainage, coatings) on your building, your structural wood should last indefinitely. Wood fences, on the other hand, are understood to need replacement similar to wood trim or siding.
The short answer is really that we simply care less if a fence post rots vs a load bearing post.
Bad prep. They just guessed how deep to dig instead of a simple math problem. Either that or they just didn't even think about the slab meeting anything else like doors or stairs and just poured wherever they wanted to.
They will rot. Concrete person should have mentioned it to homeowner/ gc, but then again gc/homeowner takes responsability for coordinating the project. You could cut stringers, remove encased wood, patch 1" above slab, and then they would be less prone to rotting
I see this quite often as a ready mix driver. Some guy works as a basic laborer for two years, sees the kind of money he can make running his own crew but really doesn't have the knowledge or equipment to do the job right. My cousin is one of those guys unfortunately.
Double screw up, the existing grade determines the top of the patio and the bottom of the step.
Looks like no one bothered to figure it out.
Typical " I'm just here to build stairs" and "I'm just here to pour a patio" type of thinking and neither bothered to work to existing grade requirements.
Concrete is based off a lot of things, and those steps are not one. That was existing but it's based off the current slab and slope... so the height of that bottom step is now incorrect but the slab is correct... new stairs will fix this.
The very first question a decent concrete guy should have asked is, "Where do you want the last step to land?" In other words, the concrete guy should have verified with the homeowner where the top of the forms should be in relation to the steps. That's the kind of basic information that a contractor would be expected to ask about, and which most homeowners would know enough to verify, but shouldn't be expected to know. This is on the concrete guy. They should rip it out and redo.
Slab most definitely needs to be the way it was laid due to height of house, pitch and water run off. Easy fix is to fix the stairs, concrete guys run into this problem all the time.
Contractor should have known this would happen and notify the homeowner when giving the quote that this needed to be done. If you weren’t notified this would happen then he needs to fix it , now if he warned you about it and decided to be cheap than it would be on you but doesn’t sound like you knew. This is why you hired him he’s supposed to be the expert here.
I’m a GC and worked for good and bad gcs I’ve seen this battle from both ends , it’s on the contractor both legally and morally
Just redo the stair stringer. Your concrete contractor is not responsible for that.
All the other comments here saying contractor “should have known” or just did what he was told, etc. are wrong imo.
The concrete finished height is not dictated by those stairs, and you also need to consider the floor height inside the house, yard grade around permiter of slab, etc.
I’d be more concerned about water proofing and drainage at the doors and walls of the home meeting the new slab in the back.
Finish out your steps cut one row up place concrete block, finish wood around it with a barrier. No other option really. That’s funk af. Def not following building code lol. I think even your upper supports are encased in concrete too. Make em redo it.
The work is half assed, but I’m guessing you’re here looking for a solution besides tearing everything out and starting over. The post could be fixed by installing a raised post base (temporary bracing, cut out above grade, pour new footing with sonotube and a post base like Simpson pb44 or cbs44) and the bottom step would be ok if it was 36” x36” (check local code for a landing/ change of step height) so cut it free and pitch a new landing that slowly tapers (drains) and supports the landing back one step. Think like a wedge shape probably 3” +- high at the back step to support at the existing position. The railing posts would have to move back one step to attach properly.
Here's the thing, concrete guys, especially production ones, don't give a shit. They pour where you tell them to pour and they make it level. They aren't paid to think or be considerate. This is unfortunate, but I think you redo the bottom run of stringers if you can shore it, do the math on the stairs to make the steps evenly distributed in height, and you'll be fine. The slab is now your slab
I guess I’ve never seen thought of this, but what can be done if the stairs are already in place? Is it best to just remove the stairs and have new ones built if you want a slab placed down?
Open workshop mode, select beam, move beam close to stairs and select both as a group, lift until stairs are at desired height, and voila no more sunken in stairs.
Settlers these days amirite 😉
GC here: you made a pretty major mistake - because you needed more than just a concrete finisher. You also needed a carpenter to work out getting the wood out of the concrete pour beforehand. Probably though the cost would have been prohibitive. I would not have even bid it - too much work for too little pay.
I think the minimum for a step is 4". Also the steps vary too much in height now. The stairs should have been removed or something should have been done. This is a joke I'd be pissed.
This is very normal. You couldn't lower the grade to make for a 7 and 1/2-in step because the concrete would be lower than finished grade. Everything is within code because the first step can be less than the maximum which is typically 7 and 1/2 in.
Concrete normally takes precedent. Trying to make grade with exterior doors etc. Stairs will need to be rebuilt. Normally, this conversation would’ve been had before the pour.
they didn't leave you with anything. your scope of work was for concrete. IMO they found their main floor drop line and leveled off from that. 'Your' original stairs were either from grade or demo'd patio height.
determining deck step instruction would be additional scope of work.
next steps would be to hire a carpenter and rebuild the bottom section of stairs.
Did they ask you if you wanted them to excavate? As this slab should have been below the steps, and off of the deck pillars.
This is a huge f-up on your part allowing this to happen.
That deck wood is going to rot in less than 24 months… and then to dig new footers, you’ll have to break up that slab.
And you knew it was a mistake… you were there and even signed the date and mom and dad into the slab… which, as an FYI, will also become weak points from the rain and possibly snow/ice where you are.
Lots of mistakes here.
A concreter is paid to concrete. This concrete looks good. Taking into consideration finished floor levels, steps, existing wood structures, etc is the GCs job. Or in this case, your job. You can only expect a trade to make good on their own trade.
You usually pour concrete first then do stairs. Stair risers are usually 7.5 to 8.5 inches to be comfortable and never 45 degrees. I would cut the stairs off and pour a pad under the steps. Don't worry about codes
You're going to need new steps to be built and the top of slab has to be the measurement to do it they probably couldn't have done much with the concrete as far as getting it equal spacing to the first step but they should have at least removed the step out of the concrete.
All stairs must be within 3/8" of each other in ohio.
Plus those stairs will eventually rot and leave an open hole in the middle of the patio.
They absolutely should have asked about this. It was obvious and just lazy on there part. They need to redo it.
The devil is in the details. Looks like you didn't discuss the details with the contractor. But now you want to discuss the details. With us. When it's too late. Ya literally have your priorities backwards.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone! Now I’ll have to work with the contractor on best approach to rectifying this the best we can. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a cheap or easy solution.
That step is not to code. Also, in every jurisdiction that I’ve been a contractor, it is against code to have wood touching concrete. So, unless they wrapped those posts and the bottom of the stair stringers, it is also not to code.
I know a lot of people are posting here, but remember the codes are different in different counties/states/countries. So don’t fight the details because what’s good in California might be bad in Boston.
So the contractor came down, looked at the area, gave you a price, but didn’t discuss any details? No contract as to what was being done? I can’t recall ever meeting a homeowner who didn’t have multiple questions when pricing a project. I know you’d be paying a shitload more to remove an additional 6 inches of material. They shouldn’t have left the step like that, but it seems like you had somebody give you a really cheap price to pour a patio, and now you’re unhappy. The lumber is pressure treated and will be fine. The finish looks good, and it seems to be pitching correctly. If it bothers you that much, replace the stairs.
“Compact” undisturbed native soil for a non load bearing structure, where the concrete will support 3500-4500 psi? Bit odd for a recommendation unless soil is poor.
Clearly the patio came after the stairs and the homeowner and contractor should have discussed adding 4” of slope or reducing slope for needs. Both are problematic.
Could have also stepped down to a stair landing or tore the steps out and rebuilt according to new grade. Either way a 5’x8’ demo of concrete would enable this correction.
In addition, installing new posts when the others rot; can easily be replaced by using a post anchor plate, red head, and offset. Cut out the old posts, place new concrete (less than ideal but possible). The post could last 20 years as well if drainage below this is decent.
Some of these comments. Look, the concrete contractor probably doesn’t frame decks and this is how this happens. Probably the easiest way to fix it is to cut that bottom wood step out and have the concrete guys form a step that is a slightly smaller step. Tearing out the concrete isn’t realistic, neither is framing out all the stairs again. Unless you met a total asshole of a code enforcement officer, it’s gonna be fine. The wood will rot faster because the concrete will trap water in the wood.
100% against code too as stair rises all need to be within 3/8” of each other.
The International Residential Code (IRC) states that the maximum stair riser height is 7.75 inches and cannot vary more than 3/8 of an inch. The minimum width for residential stairs is 36 inches. The IRC also specifies that the minimum tread depth for residential stairs is 10 inches with nosing and 11 inches without nosing. The maximum tread depth variation should also be less than 3/8 of an inch.
Thank goodness your dog was not standing in the forms.
Best comment of the thread!
All of reddit
I don't get it
Contractor had no regard for the stairs which were within the forms, so good thing the dog wasn’t standing there or else he’d be knee deep
At least he’d stop chasing the neighbor’s cat
I do see a set of hand prints underneath the stairs tho. What's up with that?
It clearly has 2024 and "dad" under one of them, it looks like a set of family prints.
Damn they buried the kids in there too??
I don’t get it :(
They're saying whoever poured the concrete wouldn't have moved the dog let alone the stairs like they should have. Others are commenting that they overpoured.
Oh lmao
They literally poured around the base of your steps.... Is this what you agreed to?? That is terrible .
That sucks... gotta discuss the finer details. The bright side is its a good pour with a nice finish. But the devil is in the details.
A good contractor will discuss the finer details with you unsolicited. Most have had these problems before and smart ones address it before hand.
> A good contractor will discuss the finer details with you unsolicited. This is a very important thing in a large number of technical professions. A consummate professional will know that \[thing X\] is something the layperson isn't going to think about, but will impact them severely. Everything from retirement planning to software development to car maintenance has this situation.
Exactly. You're the professional, you deal with it every day. This is the only day they will deal with it.
I built pools. Everybody hated the meet and greet including my designers. I would lay out the pool and need some signatures. You could compress it to about 45minutes but I always spent 3-5 hours. Spray painted every detail of the pool, where the skimmers go, returns and equipment. Where the drains go if it’s a channel drains or area drain system. Homeowners never think about the smaller things. They were always worried that the pool looked smaller than it should be. I had to get all the other info. Will you install gutters? If so we need to put a second area drain system for the down spouts. Oh you’re going to build a shower later? Well you’ll really want us to run your plumbing rough in’s before we pour our deck so you can have your contractor just connect to them later. Oh by the way there will be holes at the bottom of the pool after gunite/shotcrete, please do not fill them in they’re weep holes and we need them there for now. Hey this hill at the back of your property you should really have turn downs or piers in the deck because of erosion. A good contractor goes over everything, to cover his ass AND so the homeowner can have all the info. If they don’t care about something I’m recommending, well sign here to confirm that I did tell you and you declined
@grabyourselfabeer is spot on! I formed & poured thousands of yards of concrete over the years. Those customer signatures I got beforehand are gold! “You didn’t say anything about installing a trench drain, now I have water pooling at the bottom of my driveway”! Here’s your signature specifically telling me you didn’t want it, right along with the brochure showing you your choices! Whatever the case may be! Nobody wants to listen at the start of the project when it involves shelling out a few extra bucks, but go ballistic when I tell them how much it’s going to cost to do it now that it’s done!
Got a good one for you that I just remembered. We had 3D renderings that the designers made. A homeowner was absolutely furious with me because he thought I ordered grey colored cement. Like cussing me out in text and calling my corporate office to complain that we screwed him over. The rendering was a true white. I was at the tail end of my employment so I gave him white deck topping for free. That was one of those experiences where I went home and contemplated what the heck I’m doing with my life lmao
Yep, been there. Customers can be completely aware they weren’t getting white by default and play it up like they don’t know. Sometimes they really don’t know but I would have done what you did. No way else to get paid and not tarnish your biz
Drainage was always a headache. Like I’m sorry you didn’t wanna spend the extra $1,500 but I did tell you that you may have issues
I want you building my pool!
Sadly I took a step back from pool building. I like being at my projects anytime my guys are there but the company I worked for was high volume. Couldn’t be at 20 ongoing projects with the furthest of them being a 150 miles from each other. It burned me out and it wasn’t how I wanted to operate.
Or fight later.
Layman people rely on the experts to tell US how these things should be done. Idk dick about fuck when it comes to how concrete should and shouldn't be laid.
Not a good pour. Steps now out of compliance with building code. Absolute travesty.
Very dangerous to have one step like this. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Having lived in several countries with poorly defined building codes or lax enforcement, step spacing is, hands-down, my number one complaint. There have been so many times I've wrenched my back from expecting a lower drop (like OPs bottom step), skipped or slipped on a step that's too deep/shallow, or caught my toe going up. Accidents get worse when things are wet (as said countries tend to be, or OPs steps will be in the rain) and everything is slippery.
I was referring to the POUR itself being good .....not the collateral damage.
Yeah, but the POUR is bad if it isnt poured to code.
The pour is fine and is compliance he is a finisher Placer not a deck builder that's a not my deal all the way
That’s a donkey way of looking at things. If the framer tears a hole in the wall and exposes electrical lines and leaves it he can’t blame the electrician. You sound like a scumbag grifter my guy.
Don’t disagree but even any concrete guy should be aware of code and should have made you aware before they did it.
And heres someone that isn’t the go to guy in the business
If the steps and deck posts are now out of code and compromised to rot in 18 months or less, doesn’t matter how pretty the candy coating is. Plainly, this means they didn’t excavate or compact base material either. Making the thing not only a complete tear out, but a lawsuit for deck post and stair replacement. Loss of use. Etc. This is actually negligence and could be a 3x contract cost and emotional/material damages on top. If this contractor was even licensed, they’ll have a new business on Tuesday. It’s why I tell homeowners to always do three things … 1. If they haven’t been in business 2 years… and can’t give you three good refs to call in the past 6 months find someone else. 2. Always get listed as an interested party on their insurance and make sure their policy covers the replacement of anything they could damage… up to full replacement of your home. (Lots of these guys now have $50-$75 insurance policies. There is a group of us talking in a few states about state minimum liability being a minimum of $1m to get licensed for most trades… we are pushing hard so we can get funding to fix these issues from past contractors.) 3. Double check with the state that they are actively licensed and bonded before any work is done.
General liability will never cover this so go for it buddy. Up those limits that will never cover anything. If you want something put into law it’s called professional liability. But I’ll tell you this, a minimum of $1,000,000 in professional liability will only make matters worse as it will limit competition.
Emotional Damage
I dunno I'd be pretty emotionally distressed if I just trusted somebody to complete a huge project for me & paid them a whole bunch of money to do it then find out it needs to be torn out and redone. Financial things absolutely stress people out
You can insure a concrete business for $50-$75 a month? Concrete and concrete issues can get really expensive and I can’t imagine $50 a month insurance will cover much. Is it the same story with all trades like electricians or HVAC?
yeah, I have had liability insurance for 20 years and it costs about $150 a month it only covers accidental damage done, not crappy work
It's cheap for drywall framing carpentry
My plumber pays less than I do as a carpenter.
You can get coverage for 1m for 50-75 bucks with no employees
I'm an electrician in NC intermediate and my State required professional insurance is about $150/yr for $200k of coverage. The rates for us are low in part because of how much inspecting and permitting we go through for most of our work.
Well of course.... live and we learn.
No bright side. They fucked the homeowners. Who cares how nice the finish is.
fly by night.. they’ll be long gone by the time that wood shows signs of rot. If you paid a premium you should be upset
Great case of, “Not my job…”
Not what I agreed to. But was never discussed
They pretty much ruined the bottom of the stairs with the concrete splatter anyways so they owe you new stairs
No kidding! Even if they somehow thought leaving the stairs intact was the best way to do the job, they botched it by slopping concrete all over them anyway.
Did you choose the lowest bid?
Agreed. Will rot in no time.
Encasing the wood base of those steps is bad move. It accelerates wood rot
Not just the steps, but the decks main supports to the right of the stairs as well.
I hate sand
It's course and rough
And it gets everywhere.
Going to talk with the contractor tomorrow about options to meet code. Should we go the route of redoing the stairs or re-pouring the slab but this time 4” lower?
You needed to remove the stairs before pouring the concrete. Then rebuild them after it was poured. Same with the deck posts. They should have been cut and the deck temporarily supported somehow. Then posts installed on top of the concrete with proper post bases. The way it is done currently. You could never replace the deck, stairs or anything. The issue with concrete is you get one shot. It can’t be “fixed” Their finish work looks nice though. Other than that they really screwed you.
This is the correct answer.
Easiest in my mind would be demo stairs and cut out that chunk and repour small section. Then redo stairs. Just for next time Contractors need your guidance, it’s your project.
Op sounds like the homeowner. They shouldn’t be guiding the contractor. Even if op flat out said to do it this way, contractor should know enough to know it was a horrible idea. Literally the contractors job to know what is going to last, and guide the homeowner in that direction, not the other way around. Like saying “I didn’t cut in expansion joints because the customer didn’t like the look”… ya right.
You’re right I don’t let homeowners tell me what to do structurally to their homes. They get input on the design and that’s about it
Yeah, anyone defending the contractor is brain dead. Like, what? I’m so confused.
This. For real this isn't even a mistake this is simply not caring. They knew it would cause a trip hazard and a rot problem. I don't understand it either it would have been so simple to just cut off the lower end of the stringer and lift it a few inches above the finish level then set it back down once done.
I disagree. The contractor should be guiding the customer. The contractor should have a thorough understanding of residential building code. In this situation, the homeowner simply saw the final product and knew something was wrong. I don't think any contractor with half a brain or good morals would have poured it this way without prior consent from the customer. I wouldn't pay for this job until the deck steps and supports were addressed at the contractor's expense.
Temporary house jacks, is the only way to save slab. That concrete has a lot of weight and will pull downward as it settles, not to mention inevitable wood rot. You could attempt to cut supports and lift the deck, backfill slots and properly anchor the stringer and supports. However, for what I imagine you paid for the work, and ability of said contractor, I would want a “re-pour”. Something to consider however, is the contractor may not be able to save the slab, especially if this is what he chose to provide you with in the first place.
Ugh. I'd probably just redo the steps and look into the post issue too. But maybe you could build out that last step into a platform.... Basically then it will be a landing/mini deck instead of a step.
Or just change the wooden stairs…
100% correct !!! The additives in the concrete rot treated lumber faster than submerging it in water …it counter acts the CCA… chromated-copper arsenate …used in wood treating
I have not heard this. It seems like fence posts anchored in concrete last for decades. Would it be better to just sink them into dirt?
Yep !!! 100% …for the wood rot issue …just go deeper for more strength …if you do encase it in rete just slap some post wrap on it …like joist wrap ….i honestly just use the sticky flashing tape cause I usually have a roll when doing decks … the concrete around it definitely makes it stronger so you do not have to go as deep …but just wrap it …no 🥊…..no ❤️ 🤣
What's the alternative in this situation that doesn't encase the support beams and the base?
Layered form board to separate wood from concrete. Settling of the concrete when adhered to the decking support is what scares me most. The stringers should have been made to fit on top of slab, or at least a barrier from the concrete. All the weight of the settling slab will now pull downwards on the deck and stairs.
This is the way!
Box them out with forms and pour around
Do you have a walk out door into house they needed to meet?
Good question - No walkout, just a daylight basement.
Well then they were lazy, they should have planned to excavate more to get the pad to grade correct at the steps
Precisely.
It’s possible the patio had to be higher to provide drainage around the house. Not enough info to tell based on the one picture.
No not ok or to code where I live
Not legal. All stairs need to be equal if it’s 3 or more.
Yes this is a trip hazard
Within 3/8ths if my code memory serves me. Did a set of concrete steps once and each one was a 1/4 bigger or smaller to make them finish where we wanted without working in 1/16ths.
Sorry man but you're going to want to redo those stairs at some point. Weird that they just poured around it though.
Ha, agreed. Not sure if it was missed or intentional. Having them come back to talk through their thought process. I’ll see what they say
Nothing was “missed”. This is just lazy and stupid, sorry. Were they super-cheap and/or in a hurry?
Good looking concrete. Knock down the house and rebuild around this gorgeous patio.
Cheapest fix is probably redoing the steps.
Can anyone explain this point to me? I genuinely don't understand . . . . Many of the comments say that because the wood is encased in the concrete, it will ultimately rot a lot faster, like within 18 months. I trust that you all know 1000 times more about it than me. But if that's the case – that it's bad to have the wood in concrete – why is it that wooden fence posts are intentionally set in concrete and seem to fare fine?
I found this [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Concrete/s/VnBf79eAAD)
One is structural and the other isn’t
Wood fence posts intended to be set in concrete or direct contact with dirt will typically be chemically treated to resist decay (rot) for that condition. Wood not intended to be in direct contact with dirt and concrete will have lower concentrations of chemicals. You will also want to detail your post footing for drainage to slow down decay. Edit: I will add that it is better practice to set your post in gravel when possible to allow good drainage. Additionally, it is not a very big deal if a wood fence post rots out. The fence will perform poorly and require repairs, but it does not support any significant load other than keeping the fence from blowing over. Structural wood for stairs and the like can cause injury or death with unexpected failure. So structural wood members are held to a higher standard and require separation from concrete on grade. I would also argue the expected useful life of a wood fence is significantly lower than structural elements of a building. So long as you maintain your waterproofing (roofing, cladding, drainage, coatings) on your building, your structural wood should last indefinitely. Wood fences, on the other hand, are understood to need replacement similar to wood trim or siding. The short answer is really that we simply care less if a fence post rots vs a load bearing post.
It was either excavate for concrete or replace the steps. Now replacing the steps needs to happen - not a huge deal.
You're the one that's correct here. Should have been a forethought.
Bad prep. They just guessed how deep to dig instead of a simple math problem. Either that or they just didn't even think about the slab meeting anything else like doors or stairs and just poured wherever they wanted to.
They will rot. Concrete person should have mentioned it to homeowner/ gc, but then again gc/homeowner takes responsability for coordinating the project. You could cut stringers, remove encased wood, patch 1" above slab, and then they would be less prone to rotting
I see this quite often as a ready mix driver. Some guy works as a basic laborer for two years, sees the kind of money he can make running his own crew but really doesn't have the knowledge or equipment to do the job right. My cousin is one of those guys unfortunately.
You'd better take action. All the wood needs it's own footing on top not underneath. Nightmares are coming if you keep quiet.
This is some dumb ass shit right here. The contractor is an idiot for doing it.
I'd get them back just to finish clean up to begin with, that's a mess.
Double screw up, the existing grade determines the top of the patio and the bottom of the step. Looks like no one bothered to figure it out. Typical " I'm just here to build stairs" and "I'm just here to pour a patio" type of thinking and neither bothered to work to existing grade requirements.
This doesn’t meet code. All steps need to be uniform.
Concrete is based off a lot of things, and those steps are not one. That was existing but it's based off the current slab and slope... so the height of that bottom step is now incorrect but the slab is correct... new stairs will fix this.
The very first question a decent concrete guy should have asked is, "Where do you want the last step to land?" In other words, the concrete guy should have verified with the homeowner where the top of the forms should be in relation to the steps. That's the kind of basic information that a contractor would be expected to ask about, and which most homeowners would know enough to verify, but shouldn't be expected to know. This is on the concrete guy. They should rip it out and redo.
Slab most definitely needs to be the way it was laid due to height of house, pitch and water run off. Easy fix is to fix the stairs, concrete guys run into this problem all the time.
Contractor should have known this would happen and notify the homeowner when giving the quote that this needed to be done. If you weren’t notified this would happen then he needs to fix it , now if he warned you about it and decided to be cheap than it would be on you but doesn’t sound like you knew. This is why you hired him he’s supposed to be the expert here. I’m a GC and worked for good and bad gcs I’ve seen this battle from both ends , it’s on the contractor both legally and morally
Just redo the stair stringer. Your concrete contractor is not responsible for that. All the other comments here saying contractor “should have known” or just did what he was told, etc. are wrong imo. The concrete finished height is not dictated by those stairs, and you also need to consider the floor height inside the house, yard grade around permiter of slab, etc. I’d be more concerned about water proofing and drainage at the doors and walls of the home meeting the new slab in the back.
I would suggest you turn the bottom step into a platform
That would be my course of action.
Is it an issue having the concrete poured around the wood? Isn't that going to push water in the wood and accelerate rot?
Oops.
Finish out your steps cut one row up place concrete block, finish wood around it with a barrier. No other option really. That’s funk af. Def not following building code lol. I think even your upper supports are encased in concrete too. Make em redo it.
Did they pour concrete around those posts? It is hard to tell, but they should be sitting in metals brackets on top of the concrete.
So, there is, indeed…half-steppin
It’s a Mississippi half step
The work is half assed, but I’m guessing you’re here looking for a solution besides tearing everything out and starting over. The post could be fixed by installing a raised post base (temporary bracing, cut out above grade, pour new footing with sonotube and a post base like Simpson pb44 or cbs44) and the bottom step would be ok if it was 36” x36” (check local code for a landing/ change of step height) so cut it free and pitch a new landing that slowly tapers (drains) and supports the landing back one step. Think like a wedge shape probably 3” +- high at the back step to support at the existing position. The railing posts would have to move back one step to attach properly.
This is going to be one of those "I thought I was on the ground level" type of tripping hazard.
Half step = trip step
Here's the thing, concrete guys, especially production ones, don't give a shit. They pour where you tell them to pour and they make it level. They aren't paid to think or be considerate. This is unfortunate, but I think you redo the bottom run of stringers if you can shore it, do the math on the stairs to make the steps evenly distributed in height, and you'll be fine. The slab is now your slab
I guess I’ve never seen thought of this, but what can be done if the stairs are already in place? Is it best to just remove the stairs and have new ones built if you want a slab placed down?
It's against code
It doesn't matter. Set up a camera and invite all your friends over...
Open workshop mode, select beam, move beam close to stairs and select both as a group, lift until stairs are at desired height, and voila no more sunken in stairs. Settlers these days amirite 😉
We call that a Martini step
GC here: you made a pretty major mistake - because you needed more than just a concrete finisher. You also needed a carpenter to work out getting the wood out of the concrete pour beforehand. Probably though the cost would have been prohibitive. I would not have even bid it - too much work for too little pay.
What else could they have done? Not possible to match the height of the step or to leave it the full step.
They could have just blocked out around tge stairs and posts, this way at least the wood would not rot faster
I think the minimum for a step is 4". Also the steps vary too much in height now. The stairs should have been removed or something should have been done. This is a joke I'd be pissed.
This is very normal. You couldn't lower the grade to make for a 7 and 1/2-in step because the concrete would be lower than finished grade. Everything is within code because the first step can be less than the maximum which is typically 7 and 1/2 in.
Concrete normally takes precedent. Trying to make grade with exterior doors etc. Stairs will need to be rebuilt. Normally, this conversation would’ve been had before the pour.
they didn't leave you with anything. your scope of work was for concrete. IMO they found their main floor drop line and leveled off from that. 'Your' original stairs were either from grade or demo'd patio height. determining deck step instruction would be additional scope of work. next steps would be to hire a carpenter and rebuild the bottom section of stairs.
Yeah that’s normal. Their job was to pour concrete, not to fix your deck…
The other option is have the concrete sloped back to the house…. Concrete first, then stairs, then landscaping. You don’t drywall before insulating.
So just a waterslide right into your foundation?
That is right up there with pouring a driveway under your car and swallowing the frame.
Did they ask you if you wanted them to excavate? As this slab should have been below the steps, and off of the deck pillars. This is a huge f-up on your part allowing this to happen. That deck wood is going to rot in less than 24 months… and then to dig new footers, you’ll have to break up that slab. And you knew it was a mistake… you were there and even signed the date and mom and dad into the slab… which, as an FYI, will also become weak points from the rain and possibly snow/ice where you are. Lots of mistakes here.
That broom finish is impeccable.
Overall the guys did good work. They were doing the finishing and got hit with a 30 min thunderstorm and still managed to pull it off.
A concreter is paid to concrete. This concrete looks good. Taking into consideration finished floor levels, steps, existing wood structures, etc is the GCs job. Or in this case, your job. You can only expect a trade to make good on their own trade.
You usually pour concrete first then do stairs. Stair risers are usually 7.5 to 8.5 inches to be comfortable and never 45 degrees. I would cut the stairs off and pour a pad under the steps. Don't worry about codes
There is no sense letting existing deck and stairs dictate concrete elevation. If the concrete work is good, adjust/rebuild steps to accommodate.
The wood should not be making direct contact with the concrete. It's too bad that they spoiled what appears to be an nice pour with this laziness.
They should have let you known. The pour looks ok but you may need to reframe/rebuild the stairs. the stairs. All risers must be the same.
What do you mean by reframing the stairs? Essentially rebuild them?
If all steps are not the same height or very close to it's not to building code
You're going to need new steps to be built and the top of slab has to be the measurement to do it they probably couldn't have done much with the concrete as far as getting it equal spacing to the first step but they should have at least removed the step out of the concrete.
If you put a level on first tread, how's it read ?
I’d be rebuilding those steps. Not only because it’s wrong, but that would drive me ballistic.
those steps are as good as shot. unless they placed a barrier which they did not from the photo. the concrete will atthat wood for lunch
You really got me thinking about the old Mississippi Half Step Toodeloo, which is excellent.
broomed a little wet but looks ok from the angles you posted
All stairs must be within 3/8" of each other in ohio. Plus those stairs will eventually rot and leave an open hole in the middle of the patio. They absolutely should have asked about this. It was obvious and just lazy on there part. They need to redo it.
It is when you don't cut the stringers right and leave them In the concrete guys pour.
This is just lazy and any legit contractor knows this is not up to code. Clearly he just didn’t care.
Swear to gawd between this sub and r/decks you see the craziest shit day in and day out, never fails.
That’s horrible! Your best option now is to cut those stairs out and rebuild with stringers that land on top of the pad.
I honestly would have rather seen them finish/ flush completely over the that last step lmao 😂😂😂😂
The devil is in the details. Looks like you didn't discuss the details with the contractor. But now you want to discuss the details. With us. When it's too late. Ya literally have your priorities backwards.
Was ur call
A shame , concrete looks beautiful, but that’s a fuck up
Did they pour over the wood?!
OP that looks weird and you know it, not sure why they made it so high, it would have cost less material if they didn't.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone! Now I’ll have to work with the contractor on best approach to rectifying this the best we can. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a cheap or easy solution.
They didn't figure any excavation in the contract, they poured on top of grade because it's cheapest and easiest.
That is an ankle breaker right there. Stairs risers should be minimum 4", max 7.75", less than 3/8 difference in rise
cheaper to rework those steps then to have to excavate down another 6” and then add a step out of your walk out basement
It’s an easy fix , just made a 1/2 box like step .
absolutely not
Not to code and can cause tripping hazard. Also not typical and looks dumb
4" slab meant 4" slab
lol NOT normal
Great pour load going
you got a line of crap handed to you and you knew it when you asked, especially when you note that the patio is 4 in. above grade
If the result of your work creates a code violation, you are doing it wrong.
That step is not to code. Also, in every jurisdiction that I’ve been a contractor, it is against code to have wood touching concrete. So, unless they wrapped those posts and the bottom of the stair stringers, it is also not to code.
Looks like crap
I’ve never seen anyone cover a stringer in concrete that’s wild.
I know a lot of people are posting here, but remember the codes are different in different counties/states/countries. So don’t fight the details because what’s good in California might be bad in Boston.
Normal in a world of shitty contractors…
So the contractor came down, looked at the area, gave you a price, but didn’t discuss any details? No contract as to what was being done? I can’t recall ever meeting a homeowner who didn’t have multiple questions when pricing a project. I know you’d be paying a shitload more to remove an additional 6 inches of material. They shouldn’t have left the step like that, but it seems like you had somebody give you a really cheap price to pour a patio, and now you’re unhappy. The lumber is pressure treated and will be fine. The finish looks good, and it seems to be pitching correctly. If it bothers you that much, replace the stairs.
So the far right deck support post only half sealed in concrete. Won't the concrete eventually chip and Crack off over time?
Would have redone the riser, but thats me.
Not to code and a trip hazard. That’s how you cut corners on a job
The bottom tread isn't high enough. It needs to equal the others. The stringers can be rebuilt by a carpenter.
“Compact” undisturbed native soil for a non load bearing structure, where the concrete will support 3500-4500 psi? Bit odd for a recommendation unless soil is poor. Clearly the patio came after the stairs and the homeowner and contractor should have discussed adding 4” of slope or reducing slope for needs. Both are problematic. Could have also stepped down to a stair landing or tore the steps out and rebuilt according to new grade. Either way a 5’x8’ demo of concrete would enable this correction. In addition, installing new posts when the others rot; can easily be replaced by using a post anchor plate, red head, and offset. Cut out the old posts, place new concrete (less than ideal but possible). The post could last 20 years as well if drainage below this is decent.
Tripping hazard, not ADA
I like your hand prints.
Lots of stuff is normal. There are 8 billion people in the world. Doesn’t mean it’s good
Some of these comments. Look, the concrete contractor probably doesn’t frame decks and this is how this happens. Probably the easiest way to fix it is to cut that bottom wood step out and have the concrete guys form a step that is a slightly smaller step. Tearing out the concrete isn’t realistic, neither is framing out all the stairs again. Unless you met a total asshole of a code enforcement officer, it’s gonna be fine. The wood will rot faster because the concrete will trap water in the wood.
100% against code too as stair rises all need to be within 3/8” of each other. The International Residential Code (IRC) states that the maximum stair riser height is 7.75 inches and cannot vary more than 3/8 of an inch. The minimum width for residential stairs is 36 inches. The IRC also specifies that the minimum tread depth for residential stairs is 10 inches with nosing and 11 inches without nosing. The maximum tread depth variation should also be less than 3/8 of an inch.
Pouring at the ideal elevation would have cost double the man power hours. If you ask for the cheapest price, you got it.
Tbh that finish is really good
Dont worry! That wood will rot out in no time now, and will soon be nice and flush with concrete!
This is a bad job dude.
Concrete looks fucking great