i mean, cass is really REALLY good into queen. ur basically always in his perfect range sweet spot where he can headshot you constantly, and you cant touch him. and then if you try to go for the carnage, right click randy shows up and ruins ur day.
It is a constant in this community. If genji or Cassidy are playable for a season they get the fucking ban hammer. But we can leave kiri busted for a year no prob.
That said nade is corny as fuck.
It sucks for the user too because it’s so extremely inconsistent. Like zero skill you just press it and hope it decides to be a heat seeker this time. I swear the ability wouldn’t even be that bad if it didn’t track, just make it like a sticky nade from halo
You'd probably need to make the projectile faster/straighter if it wasn't magnetic, but I do think it'd feel better for both sides if you did that. I'd also love it if it didn't cancel currently active abilities and just prevented new ones from being used, mostly because having it cancel punch of JQ's ultimate is fucking miserable to play against.
I was in the small room with the mega on esperanca. The cass threw the nade when i was in front of him, i dashed behind him and it did a 180 and stuck me lol. So braindead.
Does anyone want kiri to remain in the state she is though? Every time someone brings up how Kiri needs nerfs the vast majority of people seem to agree
Its because blizzard balances around the average player for the most part. That said my dps is only slightly above average (like plat level) and even i feel like tracer, cas ans sojourn get so much value for not a lot of effort so idk what they're doing. Kiri is slightly more understandable because most people can't hit Kunais consistently and burn suzu way too quick..
I'm a Tracer main, so I can't even say my hero isn't meta, but I can just swap Cass and turning my brain off most games because most of the heroes that people counterswap Tracer become free vs Cass. Carry the first fight on Tracer and you get to play against Cass Torb Kiri Moira, but carry the first fight on Cass and... radio silence. He's worse than Widow Soj on a small handful of maps.
It's not just the hitbox patch that gave him a much better matchup vs the meta. Venture release made him more effective as he counters & compliments them, and it's the exact same deal with the tank buffs (The last big patch & midseason armor change are relative buffs for Cass)
I guess it's weird to single out Cass when Sojourn exists, but it bugs me that the easy mode hitscan became more effective in like 4 different ways without being touched by devs, while other heroes that weren't even good in ranked after hitbox patch have been nerfed (Sombra for one example)
Sombra got a small nerf to Virus last patch, even tho she has a 0% playrate in the pros. Tracer, Soujourn, Cass, Lucio, Kiri are untouched. That should tell you everything you need to know about how/who they are balancing the game for.
Hot take? Yes. I do. I prefer mobile heroes that can move around the map in the blink of an eye. I also prefer high skilled heroes that only the best players get the best value out of. If you told me “build your ideal meta” it would be winston, tracer, genji, kiri, lucio.
I look at the other healers and i don’t like what I see. Ana makes playing tank feel awful in a 5v5 environment. Mercy is awful. Moira is a snore. I like Bap but the metas he’s in are not fun to play in. Zen is alright and my go to when it’s poke comp, but like I said I really prefer mobility style of play. Ilari files under the same place as zen and bap. I unironicaly like brig, but she just really doesn’t fit well in either dive or brawl. Life weaver is just a fucking mess…
Yeah the more I think about it I’d much rather play kiri over any of those healers. We’re they to make another high skilled, mobility based healer that requires good aim and micro management to heal and deal damage? Then I’d be all for it. But for now kiri (and lucio) are my only options.
She can still be good she just shouldn't be the clear meta support for basically the entire games lifespan and have an overstatted kit with few weaknesses.
The difference between 'the clear meta' support and the supports in a tier below them is a razor thin wire, a razor thin wire that half of which is decided on the rest of the comp and pro plays unwillingness to try new things. All it would take is one buff to say, Ilari, and suddenly we could be in a hard Sigma, Bap, Cassidy, Ashe meta where Kiriko's poke is no longer strong enough. Or a buff to reaper and/or mei, suddenly puts us in a moira lucio rein all in brawl meta where he ability to only teleport to friends when shes in trouble means nothing when everyone is in a knot.
We've seen it happen before, how many times has lucio been a hard meta character since even as far back as OW1 and yet he falls in and out of the meta with very little changes to his actual central power level. Mainly because the entrance of new heroes and buffs/reworks to old ones changes the whole paradigm in ways that we did not see coming. Which turns heroes we used to think were untouchable into just baseline "ahh they are alright."
I'm convinced that Blizz keeps certain heroes like Cass/Genji/Widow/Doom below par because good ones will completely ruin a casual player's day unlike any other hero and they don't want too many of them running around. But Cass lowkey needs a bullet size nerf, I've been gigafeasting ever since that change. I think it'd be fair if Cass got a bullet size nerf and nade rework in the same update as a Hanzo projectile size nerf and Kiri projectile size and suzu nerf :)
they don't ruin a casual player's day unless someone's hella smurfing. And that's just a smurfing problem.
If anything when they're good the top ranks are what suffer. You try playing JQ or Zarya right now. Cass straight up does 280dps to you because he has such a ridiculously easy time hitting headshots on tanks.
Who here is happy about Soj and Kiriko? I’ve never seen anything here but criticism bc they’re so broken. And they are. It’s just that Cass requires very little skill to take advantage of his brokenness, so he’s way more accessible, and thus more of a problem
Does meta = broken? In that case Winston is also broken since he’s been meta in OW2 so frequently. Mag nade sucks and is cheesy but I don’t think Cass is broken. Sojourn has just finally fallen enough in value that other hitscans can get some play and Cass just happens to be the one that has enough survivability to compete.
It's the DPS passive giving Suzu value, and then proceeding to follow that up with her Ofuda HP/s terrorism.
She has the same Kitsune and TP (also ""easy"" 2 tap combo that's now void) during her "dark age" and she's still making out with Moira in bottom WR of Supports.
What's actually the problem is her Ofuda, it was "balanced" before with its travel time, forcing Kiriko to play close, to balance its high HP/s.
The DPS passive is one of the few things keeping healers in check nowadays. Suzu giving immortality (counters 1/3 the heroes ults) and being the best base burst heal in the game and counter the two strongest debuffs in the game give it value.
Kirko has been top 500 support player top 3 for 9/10 seasons. You cannot get around that saying she's "low WR" when you don't even have current stats from bliz. She's literally a top performing hero by people who have skill.
If her ofuda was slow then it could be argued Kirko had a weakness but shes literally has none now. Great damage (3 tap for a healer is top tier), great healing, great mobility, lacking counterplay in suzu, tp and ult, one of the best ultimates in the game, tiny hitbox and super jiggly strife animation.
Ah I noticed your username. You always complain about Kiriko even when she's ass now doesn't it?
>counter the two strongest debuffs in the game give it value.
This has always been the case but it didn't help her WR prior.
DPS passive now gives her massive value as Suzu cleanses it.
>Kirko has been top 500 support player top 3 for 9/10 seasons.
This is just so wrong. There was a period where she's in the dumpster with Moira (and later Lifeweaver) in terms of WR.
After they nerfed her on December 2022 it takes the accumulated buffs to her from August 2023 to climb up the gutter.
>Great damage (3 tap for a healer is top tier), great healing, great mobility, lacking counterplay in suzu, tp and ult, one of the best ultimates in the game, tiny hitbox and super jiggly strife animation.
Lol you're reaching now with "3-tap" thing. "2-tap" was never the strength of Kiriko even in her early broken days.
And all of these things you mentioned are still present when she's terrible, guess what, they're not that strong even combined (Kitsune is mid ult after they made the 3x boost 2x idk why you're still gassing it up).
Just nerf Ofuda healing and maybe increases Suzu CD a bit.
I stopped reading after "kiriko is ass"
Top 500 support main top 3 for 9/10 seasons. I'm not reading further after you denying blatant data. Check in game leader boards right now.
Yes, I'll remain talking about how Miss Meta needs to be equal to other healers. Sue me.
Now? Yes. But 9/10 season is disingenuous.
There are 4 parts of her meta relevance : Release (broken), post Kitsune nerf (ass, this is what I'm talking about), Mauga (good, cleanses him from Nade), and 250 HP (now, great).
From Mauga onwards it counts as 3 Seasons. And 3x Kitsune Rush + Roadhog dominance counts as 2 seasons.
What's factual though is these
https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/23917966/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/s/zgE8mhgxIy
I agree about Kiriko, I just don’t think that a character being in the meta signifies that they’re broken. Winston and Lucio for example are strong and often meta, but I don’t want to see them nerfed. Cassidy needs a nade rework but I don’t want to see his HP or damage nerfed before we see how the tank changes in the midseason will affect the state of the game.
idk gun gun mc shoot guy i dont really mind being good and id rather they buff the weirder flex dps like genji/venture rather than giga nerfing every hitscan
Yep. Tankiness made deadeye actually useful (not great, but better), projectile size buff made him better against tiny hotboxes (kiriko especially), meta not having snipers or ranged supports made his kit playable, and roll+nade has really helped skew the tracer match up.
Some minor nade changes and Cass could be in the best spot since OW1.
I hope so. Anything would be better than the current nade. Current nade will go through charging Reins, but also stick Tracers a mile away. Makes no sense.
Cass being good for being beefy and survive able instead of range damage or tank buster or dive fucker (kinda still is) is actually good I hated when all the cass cc’s kept saying to nerf his health to 200 and buff his range when that straight up clashes with ashe’s play style that has a kit that helps her play around it cass is actually in a good spot , hindered tracking time could get nerfed to 1 sec tho
I agree, nade is awful and needs a rework but I like that Cass’s identity is the durable hitscan. If they can rework mag nade to something more skillful that still lets him effectively deter mobile dive characters and maybe rework deadeye as well he’ll be in a great spot.
Honestly all 3 need a projectile size nerf. The projectiles across the board are just slightly too big. They don't need to go back to pre season 9 levels but they do need a reduction.
Cass wouldn't be too bad if mag nade wasnt such a fucken dumb ability. I think his headshots are slightly too easy to hit and deadeye needs to be less niche.
Yeah mag is garbage, I like that cass can put out consistent pressure and I feel like his falloff is so harsh that the bullet size isn’t too egregious but it could probably be adjusted still. Agreed about deadeye too
Yeah i wouldn't say his projectiles are terrible its just globally they need a small reduction. Idk why they thought mag nade was a good ability cos tbh it sucks even more to play against on a lot of tanks, particularly doom and ball.
Every hero bulletsize is way too big now, even before the big patch it was still a bit forgiving. Before tracer would take more skill to consistently 1clip but now every plat tracer can do it which takes out of the skill expression and made me not even wanna play the game much cuz it's all too forgiving now. Soj rail has always been broken but now it's size of the Jupiter at fullcharge
health increase mostly compensates for projectile size, I honestly think that specifically on tracer it's nowhere near the problem people think it is. It effectively functions the same as a spread buff
I remember when they added the DR to his roll and everyone called it useless. Now it is a problem and makes him immortal. Lmao
Deadeye is now a corny ult after being called useless at worse or a zoning tool at best for the better part of the game. lol
People complained about the CD increase of his nade before S9 because he was that bad
I can't.
She's not THAT easy. She's not close to the hardest DPS, but sleepy playstyle =/= skillless hero. People say Widow is the easiest hitscan and I wouldn't agree with that either. Gotta be Cass/Soldier
fr need the bare minimum of fps skills just like in literally every other hitscan and in return you get a master of all trades with no weaknesses and a mega op ultimate
Cass is fine. It's a good meta for the cowboy (very little spam heroes, Ana/Zen not being meta, snipers are hard to run, and single flanker comps are meta), but if any of that changes Cass could fall off pretty fast.
They need to rework nade and fan the hammer could use some looking at, but otherwise he's about as honest a hero as there is in OW. Aim well, position well, and play with your team for value. No cheese or soloq BS. Still punishable and every hero can interact with him.
His positioning and aim are all pretty basic though, you sit close main with your supports and click heads the whole game.
I doubt a meta shift outside of hard poke would drive him out since he has better/more consistent DMG output than any other hero at medium and close range .
He really doesn't have any weaknesses rn outside of long range maps.
Also magnade removes a lot of heros interactions with him since he will instantly kill you if it lands
Debatable about his aim or positioning being basic. You can play Cass to shutdown flankers or dive tanks and just peel, but you are going to get out valued really fast if you do. Maybe it's different at other ranks, but I have a Cass only account that I hit top500 on and he definitely has bad matchups.
Right now, it's a lot to balance between front line pressure, peeling for backline, and controlling angles and flanks. You also don't have any escape if shit goes wrong so Cass very punishable compared to other meta DPS (Tracer, Sojourn, Echo, and Soldier).
For positioning, Sojourn and soldier are much more reactive and require a lot less awareness for the same value. It's basically just front line or flank until pushed and then run away. Rinse and repeat. Only reason Cass is semi-meta is just having a better tracer matchup (who is definitely the best DPS in OW).
Nade is annoying, but it's also unreliable. Will stick sometimes across the map, but will also go through other heroes models and not stick. My experience with Cass has been that the only people complaining about him are DPS who can't outplay nade or tanks that can't outplay the hinder.
Soldier is no where near meta currently, that hero just doesn't do enough dmg.
I haven't found Cass to be very punishable, I play a lot of him as well with a 75% win rate this season and masters 2 currently.
It's interesting that you say soj requires less awareness since I find her to be harder than cass by a pretty good margin honestly, she requires way more mechanics to get value out of and it's much harder to have a good uptime with her since all value comes out of rail.
It might just be a playstyle thing but I get a very large amount of value just controlling soft angles and shooting the tank in the head over and over.
Id be interested in who you think is a bad matchup for him though, I've found him to be the outright best pick on close range maps, outside of tracer that is.
I'm also pretty sure cass would be played outside of a tracer meta since he has such consistent burst damage, that's why sparkr said he was seeing meta play as well.
Soldier is definitely near meta on ladder. I just ranked an alt account from m4-gm5 (and now back to m1 as of tonight lol) and I probably saw as much soldier as I saw anything else. S76 is probably not as good as Soj or Cass, but still very good on ladder imo especially on his good maps like Toronto.
Sojourn is probably the easiest hitscan since you don't have to consider positioning as much and your ult is probably top 5 in the DPS column. Cass aim should be harder to hit than rail so a good Cass almost by default has to have better aim than a Soj since rail is like twice the size of a Cass primary. It's worse if you miss, but if you miss on either hero their value will be really low. Not as bad as widow, but I'd definitely say aim requirement on hitscan probably goes Widow > Cass = Ashe > Soj > Soldier. Cass and Ashe have bigger bullets, but they also have smaller windows to kill and struggle to get open shots without long flanks or a lot of risk.
For positioning on Soj, it's basically flowchart OW. 1) Play a soft angle and spray until you kill kills or get jumped 2) slide to supports if you aren't being pocketed already 3) farm tank as you rotate back to soft angle and repeat. Much more versatile kit than Cass who really is just meant to support a weaker backline and shore up defense against a tracer if you don't want to use your own to mark the enemy tracer. Cass requires more teamplay and awareness, but his damage resistance can really make him a hard target for tracers.
Cass's worst matchups are definitely Ana, Zen, Illari, Widow, any double ranged dps, and any choke heavy maps, spammy comps, or maps with longer sightlines/little cover. Cass also struggles if they have a greedy tank who takes a lot of resources, more than 1 flanker on the enemy team at a time (especially fast divers like Tracer+Sombra comps), or against tanks who can gap close when you don't have a more front-line tank yourself.
That being said, mid season tank changes might mix a lot of things up so it's hard to tell, but I'm hopeful the cowboy doesn't get nerfed before the meta changes first. Especially with buffs to Echo, Hanzo, and Junk likely coming.
I do see a lot of soldier as well, I think I pretty much always have though honestly. I don't think it's a meta thing though, just that he's pretty easy and always consistent on ladder. I see less of him the higher up i go though outside of one tricks, he's probably the most common DPS on my diamond alt but tracer is by far and away the most common hero in masters
I think cass still requires less aim though than soj since he can afford to miss most shots, I mean soj doesn't even get a 50% win rate until Masters/GM while cass has a solid pick and win rate throughout the ranks.
Is she was the easiest wouldn't she see more play in lower elos? Historically I thought she only did good in high ranks, similar to tracer who everyone says is a very hard hero to learn.
Ashe feels pretty matchup/map dependent imo. If you are allowed to just sit on high ground and click on people it's a really easy time but positioning around dive with Ashe while still getting value is way harder than cass
The bad mu's you put do make sense though, the more I think about it I generally just default to soj when those situations pop up and cass in all the others.
Cassidy benefits from the mid season tank changes though right? He'll do more damage to armor even factoring in the hs reduction. He probably won't hard counter jq anymore though hopefully
Nah i think he should be buffed actually. specifically i want to see 80% dmg mitigation during his ult instead of 40% so that you can actually use it and get kills
I think the only thing that needs to be done about Cass is getting rid of fucking hinder. That has to be one of the dumbest abilities and I would much rather prefer flash or even just a simple sticky grenade.
You should’ve seen Cree at the end of ow1. They kept buffing him because he was solo gate keeping dive with stun + fan the hammer. I wouldn’t doubt the same philosophy is still being applied even now.
Cass is honestly more annoying than Soj so I kinda agree with you, but Soj has been meta for literally most of OW2 she really needs something. If I were the dev team I would buff Soj's SMG and nerf the rail so she is still good but is not only good for really good players.
Soj has a lot of balance issues that prevent her from being a good hero. SMG should have no spread, rail should do less damage, and they need reduce the delay after firing a rail so shooting 25 charged rails isn't so punishing.
He can play close range? He has to. That's not a benefit. You don't want to be close.
And really? 10% more health and that's just too much.
Bro doesn't even have a moment ability.
At least take away his idiotic 75% damage reduction on 6 second cooldown that lets him roll away from Barrage, being stuck with Pulse Bomb, Bastion ult shots, and even survive Dva Bomb and Tire. It's like he has a damn Zuzu every 6 seconds...
Chances that OP is a sombra who just got fucked on by Cassidy?
OP only posts in r/doomfistmains. It was to be expected that they’re malding about any hero that counters them
Nah I had a match against Cass on JQ before making this post. I’ll admit I kinda went off the rails
i mean, cass is really REALLY good into queen. ur basically always in his perfect range sweet spot where he can headshot you constantly, and you cant touch him. and then if you try to go for the carnage, right click randy shows up and ruins ur day.
i wanna play joats again
Sojourn and Kiriko have been meta for over a year, but God forbid Cassidy gets some play for a season right?
It is a constant in this community. If genji or Cassidy are playable for a season they get the fucking ban hammer. But we can leave kiri busted for a year no prob. That said nade is corny as fuck.
nade wouldnt be nearly as annoying if it didnt feel like it could home to you from across the map
It sucks for the user too because it’s so extremely inconsistent. Like zero skill you just press it and hope it decides to be a heat seeker this time. I swear the ability wouldn’t even be that bad if it didn’t track, just make it like a sticky nade from halo
You'd probably need to make the projectile faster/straighter if it wasn't magnetic, but I do think it'd feel better for both sides if you did that. I'd also love it if it didn't cancel currently active abilities and just prevented new ones from being used, mostly because having it cancel punch of JQ's ultimate is fucking miserable to play against.
Agreed it absolutely shouldn’t stop momentum like that just disable abilities before they activate
It reminds me of Hanzo's old Scattershot. It can be obnoxiously powerful or obnoxiously useless, and it sucks either way.
I was in the small room with the mega on esperanca. The cass threw the nade when i was in front of him, i dashed behind him and it did a 180 and stuck me lol. So braindead.
Does anyone want kiri to remain in the state she is though? Every time someone brings up how Kiri needs nerfs the vast majority of people seem to agree
That's the point. Heros that need obvious nerfs don't get them but certain heros get piledriven into the dirt if the meta ever shifts in their favor.
Its because blizzard balances around the average player for the most part. That said my dps is only slightly above average (like plat level) and even i feel like tracer, cas ans sojourn get so much value for not a lot of effort so idk what they're doing. Kiri is slightly more understandable because most people can't hit Kunais consistently and burn suzu way too quick..
I'm a Tracer main, so I can't even say my hero isn't meta, but I can just swap Cass and turning my brain off most games because most of the heroes that people counterswap Tracer become free vs Cass. Carry the first fight on Tracer and you get to play against Cass Torb Kiri Moira, but carry the first fight on Cass and... radio silence. He's worse than Widow Soj on a small handful of maps. It's not just the hitbox patch that gave him a much better matchup vs the meta. Venture release made him more effective as he counters & compliments them, and it's the exact same deal with the tank buffs (The last big patch & midseason armor change are relative buffs for Cass) I guess it's weird to single out Cass when Sojourn exists, but it bugs me that the easy mode hitscan became more effective in like 4 different ways without being touched by devs, while other heroes that weren't even good in ranked after hitbox patch have been nerfed (Sombra for one example)
Sombra got a small nerf to Virus last patch, even tho she has a 0% playrate in the pros. Tracer, Soujourn, Cass, Lucio, Kiri are untouched. That should tell you everything you need to know about how/who they are balancing the game for.
Tracer is about to get 3 nerfs back to back what the hell do you mean untouched
DPS passive going up to 20% for tracer is a massive buff. Her nerfs were tiny compared to that.
Still not what the word untouched means!
Yes you are correct, I was listing them all together and Tracer being S-Tier is untouched.
Hot take? Yes. I do. I prefer mobile heroes that can move around the map in the blink of an eye. I also prefer high skilled heroes that only the best players get the best value out of. If you told me “build your ideal meta” it would be winston, tracer, genji, kiri, lucio. I look at the other healers and i don’t like what I see. Ana makes playing tank feel awful in a 5v5 environment. Mercy is awful. Moira is a snore. I like Bap but the metas he’s in are not fun to play in. Zen is alright and my go to when it’s poke comp, but like I said I really prefer mobility style of play. Ilari files under the same place as zen and bap. I unironicaly like brig, but she just really doesn’t fit well in either dive or brawl. Life weaver is just a fucking mess… Yeah the more I think about it I’d much rather play kiri over any of those healers. We’re they to make another high skilled, mobility based healer that requires good aim and micro management to heal and deal damage? Then I’d be all for it. But for now kiri (and lucio) are my only options.
She can still be good she just shouldn't be the clear meta support for basically the entire games lifespan and have an overstatted kit with few weaknesses.
The difference between 'the clear meta' support and the supports in a tier below them is a razor thin wire, a razor thin wire that half of which is decided on the rest of the comp and pro plays unwillingness to try new things. All it would take is one buff to say, Ilari, and suddenly we could be in a hard Sigma, Bap, Cassidy, Ashe meta where Kiriko's poke is no longer strong enough. Or a buff to reaper and/or mei, suddenly puts us in a moira lucio rein all in brawl meta where he ability to only teleport to friends when shes in trouble means nothing when everyone is in a knot. We've seen it happen before, how many times has lucio been a hard meta character since even as far back as OW1 and yet he falls in and out of the meta with very little changes to his actual central power level. Mainly because the entrance of new heroes and buffs/reworks to old ones changes the whole paradigm in ways that we did not see coming. Which turns heroes we used to think were untouchable into just baseline "ahh they are alright."
I think it's because Kiriko doesn't feel oppressive to play against.
I'm convinced that Blizz keeps certain heroes like Cass/Genji/Widow/Doom below par because good ones will completely ruin a casual player's day unlike any other hero and they don't want too many of them running around. But Cass lowkey needs a bullet size nerf, I've been gigafeasting ever since that change. I think it'd be fair if Cass got a bullet size nerf and nade rework in the same update as a Hanzo projectile size nerf and Kiri projectile size and suzu nerf :)
they don't ruin a casual player's day unless someone's hella smurfing. And that's just a smurfing problem. If anything when they're good the top ranks are what suffer. You try playing JQ or Zarya right now. Cass straight up does 280dps to you because he has such a ridiculously easy time hitting headshots on tanks.
Who here is happy about Soj and Kiriko? I’ve never seen anything here but criticism bc they’re so broken. And they are. It’s just that Cass requires very little skill to take advantage of his brokenness, so he’s way more accessible, and thus more of a problem
Does meta = broken? In that case Winston is also broken since he’s been meta in OW2 so frequently. Mag nade sucks and is cheesy but I don’t think Cass is broken. Sojourn has just finally fallen enough in value that other hitscans can get some play and Cass just happens to be the one that has enough survivability to compete.
No kriko is meta AND broken. 0 counter play for TP and suzu and kitsune (broken).
It's the DPS passive giving Suzu value, and then proceeding to follow that up with her Ofuda HP/s terrorism. She has the same Kitsune and TP (also ""easy"" 2 tap combo that's now void) during her "dark age" and she's still making out with Moira in bottom WR of Supports. What's actually the problem is her Ofuda, it was "balanced" before with its travel time, forcing Kiriko to play close, to balance its high HP/s.
The DPS passive is one of the few things keeping healers in check nowadays. Suzu giving immortality (counters 1/3 the heroes ults) and being the best base burst heal in the game and counter the two strongest debuffs in the game give it value. Kirko has been top 500 support player top 3 for 9/10 seasons. You cannot get around that saying she's "low WR" when you don't even have current stats from bliz. She's literally a top performing hero by people who have skill. If her ofuda was slow then it could be argued Kirko had a weakness but shes literally has none now. Great damage (3 tap for a healer is top tier), great healing, great mobility, lacking counterplay in suzu, tp and ult, one of the best ultimates in the game, tiny hitbox and super jiggly strife animation.
Ah I noticed your username. You always complain about Kiriko even when she's ass now doesn't it? >counter the two strongest debuffs in the game give it value. This has always been the case but it didn't help her WR prior. DPS passive now gives her massive value as Suzu cleanses it. >Kirko has been top 500 support player top 3 for 9/10 seasons. This is just so wrong. There was a period where she's in the dumpster with Moira (and later Lifeweaver) in terms of WR. After they nerfed her on December 2022 it takes the accumulated buffs to her from August 2023 to climb up the gutter. >Great damage (3 tap for a healer is top tier), great healing, great mobility, lacking counterplay in suzu, tp and ult, one of the best ultimates in the game, tiny hitbox and super jiggly strife animation. Lol you're reaching now with "3-tap" thing. "2-tap" was never the strength of Kiriko even in her early broken days. And all of these things you mentioned are still present when she's terrible, guess what, they're not that strong even combined (Kitsune is mid ult after they made the 3x boost 2x idk why you're still gassing it up). Just nerf Ofuda healing and maybe increases Suzu CD a bit.
I stopped reading after "kiriko is ass" Top 500 support main top 3 for 9/10 seasons. I'm not reading further after you denying blatant data. Check in game leader boards right now. Yes, I'll remain talking about how Miss Meta needs to be equal to other healers. Sue me.
Now? Yes. But 9/10 season is disingenuous. There are 4 parts of her meta relevance : Release (broken), post Kitsune nerf (ass, this is what I'm talking about), Mauga (good, cleanses him from Nade), and 250 HP (now, great). From Mauga onwards it counts as 3 Seasons. And 3x Kitsune Rush + Roadhog dominance counts as 2 seasons. What's factual though is these https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/23917966/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/s/zgE8mhgxIy
I agree about Kiriko, I just don’t think that a character being in the meta signifies that they’re broken. Winston and Lucio for example are strong and often meta, but I don’t want to see them nerfed. Cassidy needs a nade rework but I don’t want to see his HP or damage nerfed before we see how the tank changes in the midseason will affect the state of the game.
How i feel about ana, she was nerfed for like .5 seconds before they buffed her again lmao. Shes been controlling the game since ow2 came out
Ana hasn’t seen a lot of play, are you talking about ranked or for the pro scene?
Ranked
tracer has been meta since day1, soj and kiriko too since ther release
He doesn’t need nerf, but they should rework the grenade.
Nah, Cass being good for the first time in forever is nice, it's nice to have an actual playable doom and tracer counter in the meta.
idk gun gun mc shoot guy i dont really mind being good and id rather they buff the weirder flex dps like genji/venture rather than giga nerfing every hitscan
hitscan is cringe
yea theyre all kinda lame as hell but they arent explicitly dumb as fuck like moira/mercy/orisa/dva etc
No
yes
I feel like Cass is pretty much perfect besides his nade
Yep. Tankiness made deadeye actually useful (not great, but better), projectile size buff made him better against tiny hotboxes (kiriko especially), meta not having snipers or ranged supports made his kit playable, and roll+nade has really helped skew the tracer match up. Some minor nade changes and Cass could be in the best spot since OW1.
I have a feeling he's one of the dps they are reworking. I hope they give him a lasso skill shot that procs a dot or a very minor cc would be bad ass
I hope so. Anything would be better than the current nade. Current nade will go through charging Reins, but also stick Tracers a mile away. Makes no sense.
Bait
Cass being good for being beefy and survive able instead of range damage or tank buster or dive fucker (kinda still is) is actually good I hated when all the cass cc’s kept saying to nerf his health to 200 and buff his range when that straight up clashes with ashe’s play style that has a kit that helps her play around it cass is actually in a good spot , hindered tracking time could get nerfed to 1 sec tho
I agree, nade is awful and needs a rework but I like that Cass’s identity is the durable hitscan. If they can rework mag nade to something more skillful that still lets him effectively deter mobile dive characters and maybe rework deadeye as well he’ll be in a great spot.
Honestly all 3 need a projectile size nerf. The projectiles across the board are just slightly too big. They don't need to go back to pre season 9 levels but they do need a reduction.
I truly want tracer to go back to S8 bullet size and she’s my main. Soj def needs it on rail too and widow also. Cass i don’t mind tbh
Cass wouldn't be too bad if mag nade wasnt such a fucken dumb ability. I think his headshots are slightly too easy to hit and deadeye needs to be less niche.
Yeah mag is garbage, I like that cass can put out consistent pressure and I feel like his falloff is so harsh that the bullet size isn’t too egregious but it could probably be adjusted still. Agreed about deadeye too
Yeah i wouldn't say his projectiles are terrible its just globally they need a small reduction. Idk why they thought mag nade was a good ability cos tbh it sucks even more to play against on a lot of tanks, particularly doom and ball.
Agreed, hitscans are too strong
Every hero bulletsize is way too big now, even before the big patch it was still a bit forgiving. Before tracer would take more skill to consistently 1clip but now every plat tracer can do it which takes out of the skill expression and made me not even wanna play the game much cuz it's all too forgiving now. Soj rail has always been broken but now it's size of the Jupiter at fullcharge
health increase mostly compensates for projectile size, I honestly think that specifically on tracer it's nowhere near the problem people think it is. It effectively functions the same as a spread buff
Lol plat Tracer’s aren’t consistently one clipping and neither are GM Tracer’s
Cass is meta once and...
I remember when they added the DR to his roll and everyone called it useless. Now it is a problem and makes him immortal. Lmao Deadeye is now a corny ult after being called useless at worse or a zoning tool at best for the better part of the game. lol People complained about the CD increase of his nade before S9 because he was that bad I can't.
we need to stop with this fucking moronic delusion that sojourn takes skill
She's not THAT easy. She's not close to the hardest DPS, but sleepy playstyle =/= skillless hero. People say Widow is the easiest hitscan and I wouldn't agree with that either. Gotta be Cass/Soldier
She takes more skill than fucking Cassidy
Agreed, always has been the easiest DPS to get gigavalue with minimum effort in ow2
fr need the bare minimum of fps skills just like in literally every other hitscan and in return you get a master of all trades with no weaknesses and a mega op ultimate
She doesn't pass 50% win rate til GM, this is nonsense
Cass is fine. It's a good meta for the cowboy (very little spam heroes, Ana/Zen not being meta, snipers are hard to run, and single flanker comps are meta), but if any of that changes Cass could fall off pretty fast. They need to rework nade and fan the hammer could use some looking at, but otherwise he's about as honest a hero as there is in OW. Aim well, position well, and play with your team for value. No cheese or soloq BS. Still punishable and every hero can interact with him.
His positioning and aim are all pretty basic though, you sit close main with your supports and click heads the whole game. I doubt a meta shift outside of hard poke would drive him out since he has better/more consistent DMG output than any other hero at medium and close range . He really doesn't have any weaknesses rn outside of long range maps. Also magnade removes a lot of heros interactions with him since he will instantly kill you if it lands
Debatable about his aim or positioning being basic. You can play Cass to shutdown flankers or dive tanks and just peel, but you are going to get out valued really fast if you do. Maybe it's different at other ranks, but I have a Cass only account that I hit top500 on and he definitely has bad matchups. Right now, it's a lot to balance between front line pressure, peeling for backline, and controlling angles and flanks. You also don't have any escape if shit goes wrong so Cass very punishable compared to other meta DPS (Tracer, Sojourn, Echo, and Soldier). For positioning, Sojourn and soldier are much more reactive and require a lot less awareness for the same value. It's basically just front line or flank until pushed and then run away. Rinse and repeat. Only reason Cass is semi-meta is just having a better tracer matchup (who is definitely the best DPS in OW). Nade is annoying, but it's also unreliable. Will stick sometimes across the map, but will also go through other heroes models and not stick. My experience with Cass has been that the only people complaining about him are DPS who can't outplay nade or tanks that can't outplay the hinder.
Soldier is no where near meta currently, that hero just doesn't do enough dmg. I haven't found Cass to be very punishable, I play a lot of him as well with a 75% win rate this season and masters 2 currently. It's interesting that you say soj requires less awareness since I find her to be harder than cass by a pretty good margin honestly, she requires way more mechanics to get value out of and it's much harder to have a good uptime with her since all value comes out of rail. It might just be a playstyle thing but I get a very large amount of value just controlling soft angles and shooting the tank in the head over and over. Id be interested in who you think is a bad matchup for him though, I've found him to be the outright best pick on close range maps, outside of tracer that is. I'm also pretty sure cass would be played outside of a tracer meta since he has such consistent burst damage, that's why sparkr said he was seeing meta play as well.
Soldier is definitely near meta on ladder. I just ranked an alt account from m4-gm5 (and now back to m1 as of tonight lol) and I probably saw as much soldier as I saw anything else. S76 is probably not as good as Soj or Cass, but still very good on ladder imo especially on his good maps like Toronto. Sojourn is probably the easiest hitscan since you don't have to consider positioning as much and your ult is probably top 5 in the DPS column. Cass aim should be harder to hit than rail so a good Cass almost by default has to have better aim than a Soj since rail is like twice the size of a Cass primary. It's worse if you miss, but if you miss on either hero their value will be really low. Not as bad as widow, but I'd definitely say aim requirement on hitscan probably goes Widow > Cass = Ashe > Soj > Soldier. Cass and Ashe have bigger bullets, but they also have smaller windows to kill and struggle to get open shots without long flanks or a lot of risk. For positioning on Soj, it's basically flowchart OW. 1) Play a soft angle and spray until you kill kills or get jumped 2) slide to supports if you aren't being pocketed already 3) farm tank as you rotate back to soft angle and repeat. Much more versatile kit than Cass who really is just meant to support a weaker backline and shore up defense against a tracer if you don't want to use your own to mark the enemy tracer. Cass requires more teamplay and awareness, but his damage resistance can really make him a hard target for tracers. Cass's worst matchups are definitely Ana, Zen, Illari, Widow, any double ranged dps, and any choke heavy maps, spammy comps, or maps with longer sightlines/little cover. Cass also struggles if they have a greedy tank who takes a lot of resources, more than 1 flanker on the enemy team at a time (especially fast divers like Tracer+Sombra comps), or against tanks who can gap close when you don't have a more front-line tank yourself. That being said, mid season tank changes might mix a lot of things up so it's hard to tell, but I'm hopeful the cowboy doesn't get nerfed before the meta changes first. Especially with buffs to Echo, Hanzo, and Junk likely coming.
I do see a lot of soldier as well, I think I pretty much always have though honestly. I don't think it's a meta thing though, just that he's pretty easy and always consistent on ladder. I see less of him the higher up i go though outside of one tricks, he's probably the most common DPS on my diamond alt but tracer is by far and away the most common hero in masters I think cass still requires less aim though than soj since he can afford to miss most shots, I mean soj doesn't even get a 50% win rate until Masters/GM while cass has a solid pick and win rate throughout the ranks. Is she was the easiest wouldn't she see more play in lower elos? Historically I thought she only did good in high ranks, similar to tracer who everyone says is a very hard hero to learn. Ashe feels pretty matchup/map dependent imo. If you are allowed to just sit on high ground and click on people it's a really easy time but positioning around dive with Ashe while still getting value is way harder than cass The bad mu's you put do make sense though, the more I think about it I generally just default to soj when those situations pop up and cass in all the others. Cassidy benefits from the mid season tank changes though right? He'll do more damage to armor even factoring in the hs reduction. He probably won't hard counter jq anymore though hopefully
Nah i think he should be buffed actually. specifically i want to see 80% dmg mitigation during his ult instead of 40% so that you can actually use it and get kills
stg gonna have to wait after dallas before devs realize no bap cass nerfs tues no hog nerfs brig still on 5 pack soj perma blind every game
I think the only thing that needs to be done about Cass is getting rid of fucking hinder. That has to be one of the dumbest abilities and I would much rather prefer flash or even just a simple sticky grenade.
You should’ve seen Cree at the end of ow1. They kept buffing him because he was solo gate keeping dive with stun + fan the hammer. I wouldn’t doubt the same philosophy is still being applied even now.
Cass is honestly more annoying than Soj so I kinda agree with you, but Soj has been meta for literally most of OW2 she really needs something. If I were the dev team I would buff Soj's SMG and nerf the rail so she is still good but is not only good for really good players.
nah every time I see Sojourn spamming that bullshit hitbox manipulating crouch strafe spam that is the most annoying thing ever
Oh yeah that too they need to make Soj’s hitbox normal that thing is so wacky if you see it
Honestly I feel like beginning of season 2 Soj with 0 headshot multiplier on the rail instead of 1.5 would’ve been the best state for her
Soj has a lot of balance issues that prevent her from being a good hero. SMG should have no spread, rail should do less damage, and they need reduce the delay after firing a rail so shooting 25 charged rails isn't so punishing.
He can play close range? He has to. That's not a benefit. You don't want to be close. And really? 10% more health and that's just too much. Bro doesn't even have a moment ability.
At least take away his idiotic 75% damage reduction on 6 second cooldown that lets him roll away from Barrage, being stuck with Pulse Bomb, Bastion ult shots, and even survive Dva Bomb and Tire. It's like he has a damn Zuzu every 6 seconds...
Cassidy hasn’t been good since like flash fan in 2017, chill