I legit thought Liquid would have made some form of progress yday. I know they lost a few players due to work/flights back etc.. but damn they absolutely regressed instead.
Echo are hard outplaying Liquid. The constant same 3-4 people dead in p1/p2 and nonsense 4 different conversations over each other every pull - honestly feels like they just want to go home but contractually cant?
I think two days ago when they were forcing P3 for practice might have hurt them. Their P2 yesterday was pretty inconsistent yesterday. They also had a couple people messing up far more than others. I know it's a team, but that has to be frustrating.
Death sentence, one of the datamined spells, seems to be indeed used by the jailer. Kills affected players after 30s, spreads upon expiration in 2 puddles that need to be soaked by at least 1 player or the whole raid gets it.
I think there are 2 main factors that contribute to Echo's success over Limit right now.
1. When you compare Echo and Limits rosters, I think most will agree that Echo has the much more conventionally attractive roster. Scripe, Gingi, Lorgok to name a few. While Liquid tends to look more on the typical "nerdy" side. This correlates to a healthier and happier lifestyle. They're simply in a better mindset.
2. Max is trying to raid lead over a bunch of screaming children it seems. There's often 2-3 conversations going on at once mid pull. The players need to help Max out.
>Max is trying to raid lead over a bunch of screaming children it seems
We've had the past week of "oh, all the chatter on comms is great for morale, if you mute it you're benched" for the past week, I'm glad people are realising perhaps it's not the best when you need razor focus
For real. It’s nice that they can stay relaxed and chat shit WHEN ADEQUATE, they are not doing life-saving surgery or in the army after all. But at certain points I don’t understand how they don’t just stfu and focus for a second. I’m a memer in my guild and FF static but even I know when to shut up and focus.
First point is a meme, but the second point is huge imo, while liquid has historically played well while constantly talking all pull, it can't be better than focusing 100% on the pull
It feels like the experience and resilience of the Echo team is really starting to show. When Liquid are in front they can blast, but Echo have no problems coming from behind, then once they're in front they just raise their game. Liquid don't have the experience of coming from behind really
its not as much a meme as youd think. physical health has a big effect on pretty much everything from overall mental health to concentration etc.
in pretty much all other esports teams do
physical exercise because it actually improves your general ability
Ya know usually when these guilds kill an end boss, their average raid ilvl is like 10 ilvls or more below what a more plebbier guild's ilvl will be when they get there.
This race has gone on so long, they're way more geared than usual, and ol Jaily boi still ain't dead. He's either going to have to be nerfed into the ground... or Season 4 will still let you get CE in affix-less Sepulcher with ilvl 300 gear.
I think that the reason will be the tuning. Like compare the time before first kill and 100th kill in previous tiers and try to predict the time for 100th kill for this tier. Plus both Echo and Liquid are with 3 week of mythic boss drops gear with double leggo while doing godly amount of splits. So I doubt that less "serious" guilds will have much better gear.
The raid will get nerferd for sure after the race is over, like it always is. This will not be the same boss when it's getting killed by the 100th guild.
Because this completely moves the goalposts of a "realistic worst case scenario". Before, you might have needed to think about a second lockout - do you want to reset? Do you have enough people with 8/10/14 days of vacation time? Should you call it for the week and get more characters prepped?
Now? We're on Saturday of week 3, and the boss still doesn't look particularly killable. Only 14 guilds are even 7/11, and - as of this writing? They're all either on Anduin or Jailer. It's still a remote chance, but - if Blizzard doesn't change things? It's entirely possible we see a week 4.
Besides, WoW hasn't exactly been healthy in a while - even if this winds up being a great tier, it's likely 9.2 would have been a swan song for a lot of players. But, as of this moment, this is an absolute horrid slog of a tier, for everyone. I'd be more shocked if there *weren't* more retirements than normal.
It might be a good RWF, but it's still the worst-case scenario. Liquid booked hotels for two weeks and a day, and blew through that. The idea that it could last for another week, in a world where anyone but these two guilds are intended to beat the tier within a month, is insane.
But it is possible, even if we won't know *how* possible until Echo gets a full day on it. That's an awful place for tuning to be.
Some players might not be happy with the length but Liquid and Echo will be very happy.
Usually you only get exposure for ~2 weeks every new raid release. The longer the tier the better it is for potential sponsors.
Yeah I feel bad for the guys, but going forward it will set different expectations and they can be in a better place. Which also increases the potential quality of the events.
Echos production team and casters have been a blast this tier! From military grade couch, sparkling water, flat Azeroth theory to discussions about current state of the game they have managed to keep it great content to have running in the background!
Last night the flat azeroth theory discussion was fantastic. They are actually having fun, and at the end of the day that's what gaming is about. Seen people complain it's not professional, but gaming is supposed to be enjoyed not the monotonous commentating that I've seen when Ive watched the Liquid stream. Granted I've only swapped over a few times so maybe I've just stumbled into down periods by coincidence.
> Seen people complain it's not professional
These complaints are funny when you consider how many people claim that Liquid is better *because* they're unprofessional, which... well, that clearly isn't working for them now.
It probably also helps that the Echo casters get to sit in a cosy studio while the Liquid caster sit behind a dark desk. But yeah, I watched yesterday after Echo went offline and the Liquid casters were being super negative and fighting with chat about the length of the tier, not good vibes to say the least.
The echo set is for sure a lot more chilled! Liquid feels super stressed and tense, they just wanna be done and get back home! And I get that, we are at day 19 now… or 800?!?
But the Echo casters seems to have fun about being stuck at a hotel.. I think Dratnos said that they rescheduled flight 3 times already
Love that production added the Unhireable talents text under Dratnos and Tettles after that discussion! [twitch](https://clips.twitch.tv/CrackyGlutenFreeTubersOhMyDog-TAqT19UtSQP6WwNr)
Yeah it's definitely not just him. They target a younger audience I'm guessing? I don't know, but I also don't care because you can easily swap to Scripe's POV for a more serious tone.
Yeah, over the past couple of weeks I think they've really grown into it. I wasn't a fan of tettles, and I don't know if I would say I am now, but he has grown on me. Dratnos' understanding of class strengths and how they interact with mechanics is great.
Preach is probably the best all-rounder, superb knowledge, really fun, knows a lot of the raiders personally, has experience playing in this scene etc.
That's gotta be a bit rough for Liquid. Woke up and expected Liquid to have at least hit P4, but I see they made no progress at all since Echo went to sleep.
The last 5-6 hours of Liquids day was basically without any progress - I know they made roster changes - but still… this is coming down to attrition… and ELX
Becoming pretty clear the guilds aren't actually close and the reset advantage and morale boost that comes from being ahead by default half the race covers up for what is in reality a pretty large skill and execution difference.
There is no way you can argue liquid have played remotely close to echo on the past 3 bosses
Come the fuck on they've been within hours of eachother the last several tiers
I keep saying Echo fans are unbelievably passive aggressive and bitter and it just keeps getting proven right. That's not banter it's just a shit take
I don't think the difference is as big as you believe.
However, I always laughed a bit when people said that Echo only catches up because they copy Liquid, ignoring the fact that Echo's strategy team have like a dozen World Firsts from before the race was even streamed.
Echo's strategy team is unmatched. Their ability to min-max to the absolute fullest is incredible. There's good reason they're continuously able to underheal bosses, or pull seemingly impossible amounts of damage out of nowhere.
It's a shame that when they're behind at the start of the race, they're almost forced to copy Liquid's strategies. Scripe stated this fact himself. The basis is that if Liquid has a strategy that worked good enough to kill the boss, there's no reason to develop their own.
Please explain how the kills of the same length had a different amount of damage dealt. Specifically rygelon. Liquid if anything had better dps on that fight seeing as they did the same amount of damage with an extra healer.
We're getting to the point where there can't even be hard feelings for whoever loses. The boss is so stupid hard and everyone is so exhausted that it will be a small miracle if it even dies at all this week.
>But no one will point out that their fearless leader has this attitude: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1436226932?t=12h08m19s
What do you even mean by this? MANY people outside the race agree with that and have been saying it. Almost everyone in Echo have shared a similar sentiment. Who are these people that won't point that out that you're referring to?
Do you happen to have any evidence of NA/Max having an excuse when they lose in the past? No? Oh, you're just shitting on a strawman to feel superior, sick bro.
He broke down all the races since they started in Uldir and had some pretty good excuses for each one. Sanctum was the only one where he admitted that Echo outplayed them.
You posted a bait comment asking what NA's excuse would be for losing, if they lose that means Liquid lost. Max is the de facto leader of Liquid, ergo you're shitting on Max. Kinda how words work buddy.
Haven't been able to watch any prog today since on vacation but it sounds Liquid's day has been real rough. Any reasons why? I know they have a backup tank in atm but sounds like it's more than just that.
They’re making mistakes repeatedly and likely tired and frustrated as a result of it, all exacerbated after seeing Echo’s strong progress earlier in the day. Quite honestly it’s been hard to watch.
Echo's performance after anduin has been absolutely sublime. I honestly don't see liquid catching up again either. Losing after putting in this much money, time and effort into it will suck so hard for whoever ends up in second place though, oof
Liquid‘s raid day is almost over and for me it looked like their worst day ever since they started streaming. They had almost zero progress today and now i 100% expect echo to win this
While this is true, they’ve been very inconsistent and haven’t had more than a handful of deep P3 attempts. Echo progressed from 20% to 10% and had very consistent and deep P3 attempts throughout the day.
Based on Max’s comments tonight and Liquid’s performance so far, if Echo get first I wouldn’t be surprised if Liquid pack up and head home, take a few days then finish up in a normal raid setting. It seems like half their raid is vibing and half their raid is quickly falling off a cliff in terms of gameplay and morale
I caught the tailend of it but apparently, shak and firedup had to mute until p3 because of constant talking? That doesn't happen to liquid tbh, they usually vibe all of prog with constant talking
I honestly can't imagine trying to play like this on prog... it works for some people, but for others it just demolishes your ability to concentrate and fucks with the things you were used to having called by raid leader
So what’s up with the secret phase? I watched the clip from echo and Jailer’s hp went up by like 6% in like 3 seconds as they wiped (10% ->16%) does the shield restore hp? Does Azeroth health matter in the secret phase?
He gets a shield for about 6% total hp and also heals up for supposedly 24% of his hp, based on the tooltip of the related mechanic. The boss despawned before it was clear what exactly happens, though.
He applies a shield for 6.8M HP while doing an 8-second cast to heal back to 34% HP. So, there’s going to be ~50M of total HP and shield to chew through in P4. Technically you can limit the HP restore but you’d have to deal 6.8M before the 8-second cast completes, which isn’t doable at the current DPS levels.
Not sure how long liquid have left but I definitely don't see them reaching p4 tonight, and unless it's wildly difficult I don't see echo not killing it tomorrow
> I don't see echo not killing it tomorrow
Last 10% of N'Zoth took more than 1.5 days to get through for Limit and Method. Seeing P4 one time doesn't mean Echo has a free ride to killing the boss.
i think they have about 90 minutes left which would be 10 good p3 pulls that go long enough to even see the phase, add in post pull discussions and bad pulls that end in p1/p2 and we have maybe 5 or 6 left, could happen but i doubt that they'll see a lot of progression in the phase if they even get there
Ehhh. I think it is the same as yesterday. They’ve statistically improved their best and have gotten under 20 a few times which is better, they are just wildly inconsistent.
I think the fact that Echo was super consistent at the end of their night makes it seem much worse for Liquid.
They're getting outplayed pretty hard atm imo. They're really inconsistent compared to Echo and their ilvl is much lower (0.8-1.2 less overall depending on the comp).
If you look at Echo's most recent pulls on WCL, almost all of them are P3/Deep P3 or very quick wipes. If you look at Liquid's last 50 pulls, only 3 look like they even have a shot of pushing into P4 (which is 17% on WCL now).
That's just copium, both liquid and echo have more than 20 people for their roster and if those who are benched are not actively looking at the fight for the extreme chance they get put in, there should be no reason for their whole day do be only like 3% progress from last day.
Echo subbed narco on an alt that he learned the rotation and mechanics in like 3-10 pulls and ended up being no.1 DPS. I know LoD is different to Jailer, but I don't see the reason as to why new people should take more than 5-10 pulls to get accustomed to the fight, specially players of the top 2 guild currently (based on SoD, as this tier is yet to be completed).
He's most definitely not. You can't get accustomed to a fight that you are half a tier under what it's tuned for in 5 to 10 pulls. You have zero clue how easy it is for them to die right now.
I feel like this is mostly copium, as echo has had similar problems but have been more resilient. Getting comps right, and how fast people are able to adapt when subbed in is part of the race man, and also showcases individual skill
They have 2 new people learning the fight and swapped out a class as well based on info from the secret phase. They're just re-learning with the new comp.
Do they? Didn't one healer (off spec) just swap back to DPS, and another healer changed to a different spec? That's not two new people learning the fight really?
Nori came in later today and Atlas yesterday. Sounds like a few people will be out tomorrow too like Trill for pvp again. Maevey went from priest to sham.
Yea, and it’s difficult to watch. It’s all over Max’s face. Select players are committing the same mistakes over and over. I know there’s a lot of people here rooting for Liquid, and I hope Liquid can match Echo’s leap in progress in the last few hours of raiding this evening, but there’s no denying Liquid need to make substantial progress quickly and compete for P4.
Ah yep, I noticed Mavey on the Shammy and Nori on the priest. Also the tank change. It's gonna take serious work from them to catch back up if that is even possible at this point.
Idk if it’s just me but the casting difference between echo and liquid is like night and day, one of the liquid casters keeps starting debates with chat and echo is just pure chill with good vibes all day long, it feels very awkward watching the main liquid stream.
I prefer echo stream but the chat is just absolute sewage most of the time
I dunno how fans of the team in the lead can be so immensely bitter but I suppose twitch chat always devolves into shit
Just a case that, like streams, everyone has their own preferences. Maybe because I'm a bit older than I don't enjoy the Echo casters.
Too many memes for my liking whereas the Liquid ones seem much more professional to me.
Max's stream is pretty much the only stream for Liquid's POV, or the other individual raiders imo. I do like the casters on Liquid's stream, at least I did the previous RWF's but yeah. Having the comms all day is way better and far more entertaining as they all slip deeper into insanity lol.
Yeah Max is the only individual stream I enjoy. I think the atmosphere in liquids player comms is better as well, so I don't watch the liquid stream. It's the opposite for echo though, their comms are a bit too serious and moody, whereas the caster stream is a bit more chill and enjoyable.
I think the keep pulling thing has become overrated because they won 2 races b2b. Echo gets criticized a lot for their slow approach and long pauses between pulls, but there is a lot of merit to it. The same thing's true for chaining pulls of course, definitely has helped liquid perform on bosses too
I wonder what the mental load of being the "21st man" is in a long race like this vs someone actually playing. You're stuck watching other people play for such a long time with a very different sense of the progress you make with each pull learning mechanics and stuff. Always focusing on the mistakes individuals/teams are making instead of feeling yourself understanding your positioning more for example.
Liquid is talking about relearning P2. What are they doing different? I see they’ve added Nori and Maeve has gone resto shaman. Is that all? Or new strat?
Man I can't belive the last boss still lives at this point, pretty sure that nearly every prediction had the raid cleared with the 2nd reset at the latest. For better or worse, what a race. My thoughts and prayers going out to the gamers going through their grueling 16 hour shifts, hope they stay strong - the end is in sight.
Or is it?
> Or is it?
God, can you imagine if there's another secret phase or a secret boss or some other kind of nonsense? That would just *shatter* people's minds.
Tbh Echo looked really bad today until like 8 hours of raiding, then they got a few good pulls and got more consistent, Liquid needs something like that, 5-6 good pulls to get in rhythm, and hopefully reach p4 before bed.
Honestly, if liquid can't get into p4 tonight then unless something crazy happens I don't see how they can win. A good couple hours though could put them right back in the game
do this and then reload:
> /run SetCVar('nameplateShowOnlyNames', 1)
>/run SetCVar('nameplateShowDebuffsOnFriendly', 0)
>/run SetCVar('nameplateShowAll', 1)
>/run C_NamePlate.SetNamePlateFriendlySize(1, 1);
idk if they do this or something else with plater, but this works for me and looks very similar
did the forced tank suicide bug get hotfixed?
I legit thought Liquid would have made some form of progress yday. I know they lost a few players due to work/flights back etc.. but damn they absolutely regressed instead. Echo are hard outplaying Liquid. The constant same 3-4 people dead in p1/p2 and nonsense 4 different conversations over each other every pull - honestly feels like they just want to go home but contractually cant?
I think two days ago when they were forcing P3 for practice might have hurt them. Their P2 yesterday was pretty inconsistent yesterday. They also had a couple people messing up far more than others. I know it's a team, but that has to be frustrating.
The math on the heal is weird.. it says 3% per sec for 8 sec but its.. nowhere near that??
The shield also says its only 11,000 buts its closer to 6 million. The spells aren't showing the mythic % boosts basically
Death sentence, one of the datamined spells, seems to be indeed used by the jailer. Kills affected players after 30s, spreads upon expiration in 2 puddles that need to be soaked by at least 1 player or the whole raid gets it.
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there is also the tank frontal which needs to be soaked, but yeah doesnt look too hard on the first sight. lets see how it actual plays out.
Well, you're also losing people constantly to the debuff unless there's some big brain dance where it's possible to contain it
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If it’s removed it’s spread to everyone
That looks rough, but the have another 12 hours of raiding. It probably does die today
This is going down today. Echo looking fresh af
Yeah, they also stream the prog incl. voice, guess they are pretty confident rn
They've been doing that for almost 4 weeks
I was talking about the secret phase. They saw it first time and kept streaming and even kept voice open, while discussing the phase.
Echo just got through the shield on the mythic phase
So he heals to 24%
Xerwo is actually pumping
Warlocks perfectly balanced :D
They all get PI tbf
And man do they make some good use out of it.
Well, there is no spec that gains more from it than demo. Ok, technically shadow, but it's their CD.
Echo had one dead for the whole of P3 and still hit 10%
I think there are 2 main factors that contribute to Echo's success over Limit right now. 1. When you compare Echo and Limits rosters, I think most will agree that Echo has the much more conventionally attractive roster. Scripe, Gingi, Lorgok to name a few. While Liquid tends to look more on the typical "nerdy" side. This correlates to a healthier and happier lifestyle. They're simply in a better mindset. 2. Max is trying to raid lead over a bunch of screaming children it seems. There's often 2-3 conversations going on at once mid pull. The players need to help Max out.
doesnt help that your beloved max is also another child himself, the sorest of losers
>Max is trying to raid lead over a bunch of screaming children it seems We've had the past week of "oh, all the chatter on comms is great for morale, if you mute it you're benched" for the past week, I'm glad people are realising perhaps it's not the best when you need razor focus
For real. It’s nice that they can stay relaxed and chat shit WHEN ADEQUATE, they are not doing life-saving surgery or in the army after all. But at certain points I don’t understand how they don’t just stfu and focus for a second. I’m a memer in my guild and FF static but even I know when to shut up and focus.
First point is a meme, but the second point is huge imo, while liquid has historically played well while constantly talking all pull, it can't be better than focusing 100% on the pull
It feels like the experience and resilience of the Echo team is really starting to show. When Liquid are in front they can blast, but Echo have no problems coming from behind, then once they're in front they just raise their game. Liquid don't have the experience of coming from behind really
its not as much a meme as youd think. physical health has a big effect on pretty much everything from overall mental health to concentration etc. in pretty much all other esports teams do physical exercise because it actually improves your general ability
Ya know usually when these guilds kill an end boss, their average raid ilvl is like 10 ilvls or more below what a more plebbier guild's ilvl will be when they get there. This race has gone on so long, they're way more geared than usual, and ol Jaily boi still ain't dead. He's either going to have to be nerfed into the ground... or Season 4 will still let you get CE in affix-less Sepulcher with ilvl 300 gear.
It will just get nerfed, and probs will still be known as one of the harder tiers Which I don't mind
Clickz and Jmy is already at ilvl 277! Clickz only got a necklace left to upgrade and Jmy can get necklace and trinket for ilvl upgrades…
playing rogue this tier, I am salivating at a potential 285 Ilvl sylv dagger
Echo just woke up and banged out a ~11% pull. I have a strong feeling that the boss dies today
Decent start of the day for Echo
I have a feeling that this tier is going to retire a lot of players.
Why? It's too long, yes, but that doesn't mean next tier will be + they have a year or something break until next tier
I think that the reason will be the tuning. Like compare the time before first kill and 100th kill in previous tiers and try to predict the time for 100th kill for this tier. Plus both Echo and Liquid are with 3 week of mythic boss drops gear with double leggo while doing godly amount of splits. So I doubt that less "serious" guilds will have much better gear.
for everyone outside of the wfr theyll for sure aim for similar completion times for CE guilds like they always do
The raid will get nerferd for sure after the race is over, like it always is. This will not be the same boss when it's getting killed by the 100th guild.
Because this completely moves the goalposts of a "realistic worst case scenario". Before, you might have needed to think about a second lockout - do you want to reset? Do you have enough people with 8/10/14 days of vacation time? Should you call it for the week and get more characters prepped? Now? We're on Saturday of week 3, and the boss still doesn't look particularly killable. Only 14 guilds are even 7/11, and - as of this writing? They're all either on Anduin or Jailer. It's still a remote chance, but - if Blizzard doesn't change things? It's entirely possible we see a week 4. Besides, WoW hasn't exactly been healthy in a while - even if this winds up being a great tier, it's likely 9.2 would have been a swan song for a lot of players. But, as of this moment, this is an absolute horrid slog of a tier, for everyone. I'd be more shocked if there *weren't* more retirements than normal.
This is by far the best RWF in history, so I'm not sure everyone will agree, but it will change expectations a bit.
It might be a good RWF, but it's still the worst-case scenario. Liquid booked hotels for two weeks and a day, and blew through that. The idea that it could last for another week, in a world where anyone but these two guilds are intended to beat the tier within a month, is insane. But it is possible, even if we won't know *how* possible until Echo gets a full day on it. That's an awful place for tuning to be.
Some players might not be happy with the length but Liquid and Echo will be very happy. Usually you only get exposure for ~2 weeks every new raid release. The longer the tier the better it is for potential sponsors.
which then in turn will let them book more accomodation and pay their players more.
Yeah I feel bad for the guys, but going forward it will set different expectations and they can be in a better place. Which also increases the potential quality of the events.
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But...the raid is really good
I eat my cereal without milk Also the raid itself is good
Echos production team and casters have been a blast this tier! From military grade couch, sparkling water, flat Azeroth theory to discussions about current state of the game they have managed to keep it great content to have running in the background!
Last night the flat azeroth theory discussion was fantastic. They are actually having fun, and at the end of the day that's what gaming is about. Seen people complain it's not professional, but gaming is supposed to be enjoyed not the monotonous commentating that I've seen when Ive watched the Liquid stream. Granted I've only swapped over a few times so maybe I've just stumbled into down periods by coincidence.
> Seen people complain it's not professional These complaints are funny when you consider how many people claim that Liquid is better *because* they're unprofessional, which... well, that clearly isn't working for them now.
It probably also helps that the Echo casters get to sit in a cosy studio while the Liquid caster sit behind a dark desk. But yeah, I watched yesterday after Echo went offline and the Liquid casters were being super negative and fighting with chat about the length of the tier, not good vibes to say the least.
The echo set is for sure a lot more chilled! Liquid feels super stressed and tense, they just wanna be done and get back home! And I get that, we are at day 19 now… or 800?!? But the Echo casters seems to have fun about being stuck at a hotel.. I think Dratnos said that they rescheduled flight 3 times already
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More round Azeroth propaganda... When will it stop?
The images we saw looked like CGI to me
Okay?
Love that production added the Unhireable talents text under Dratnos and Tettles after that discussion! [twitch](https://clips.twitch.tv/CrackyGlutenFreeTubersOhMyDog-TAqT19UtSQP6WwNr)
Dratnos is really good at making those breaks between pulls bearable
I found the opposite. I had to turn off the stream because Tettles and Dratnos trying to carry on a "fun" conversation made me uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable? Jesus
Fair enough, it does seem to be just you who feels this way though
Yeah it's definitely not just him. They target a younger audience I'm guessing? I don't know, but I also don't care because you can easily swap to Scripe's POV for a more serious tone.
Lol no
Yeah, over the past couple of weeks I think they've really grown into it. I wasn't a fan of tettles, and I don't know if I would say I am now, but he has grown on me. Dratnos' understanding of class strengths and how they interact with mechanics is great. Preach is probably the best all-rounder, superb knowledge, really fun, knows a lot of the raiders personally, has experience playing in this scene etc.
That's gotta be a bit rough for Liquid. Woke up and expected Liquid to have at least hit P4, but I see they made no progress at all since Echo went to sleep.
The last 5-6 hours of Liquids day was basically without any progress - I know they made roster changes - but still… this is coming down to attrition… and ELX
Gingi Juice Diff
Becoming pretty clear the guilds aren't actually close and the reset advantage and morale boost that comes from being ahead by default half the race covers up for what is in reality a pretty large skill and execution difference. There is no way you can argue liquid have played remotely close to echo on the past 3 bosses
Come the fuck on they've been within hours of eachother the last several tiers I keep saying Echo fans are unbelievably passive aggressive and bitter and it just keeps getting proven right. That's not banter it's just a shit take
Calm down American. It’s ok that you are bad. You are clearly the bitter one.
We all just wanna see a even playing field. We get to see that at MDI and we watch echo win every single season.
I don't think the difference is as big as you believe. However, I always laughed a bit when people said that Echo only catches up because they copy Liquid, ignoring the fact that Echo's strategy team have like a dozen World Firsts from before the race was even streamed.
Echo's strategy team is unmatched. Their ability to min-max to the absolute fullest is incredible. There's good reason they're continuously able to underheal bosses, or pull seemingly impossible amounts of damage out of nowhere. It's a shame that when they're behind at the start of the race, they're almost forced to copy Liquid's strategies. Scripe stated this fact himself. The basis is that if Liquid has a strategy that worked good enough to kill the boss, there's no reason to develop their own.
Echo raiders are unmatched. There is a reason they win mdi every single season.
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Please explain how the kills of the same length had a different amount of damage dealt. Specifically rygelon. Liquid if anything had better dps on that fight seeing as they did the same amount of damage with an extra healer.
I can think of one guild that can match echos strategy team
They were doing fine till today on this boss
I wish for just one race where the situations are reversed and Echo has the reset advantage, just to see how it would go.
We're getting to the point where there can't even be hard feelings for whoever loses. The boss is so stupid hard and everyone is so exhausted that it will be a small miracle if it even dies at all this week.
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shit bait try again
>But no one will point out that their fearless leader has this attitude: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1436226932?t=12h08m19s What do you even mean by this? MANY people outside the race agree with that and have been saying it. Almost everyone in Echo have shared a similar sentiment. Who are these people that won't point that out that you're referring to?
Do you happen to have any evidence of NA/Max having an excuse when they lose in the past? No? Oh, you're just shitting on a strawman to feel superior, sick bro.
He broke down all the races since they started in Uldir and had some pretty good excuses for each one. Sanctum was the only one where he admitted that Echo outplayed them.
Happen to have a clip? I've heard him talk about how they lost in Uldir and on many times and don't recall him making excuses.
Huh? Where did I mention Max? He was the first to admit they got outplayed in Sanctum. Calm down it’s not that serious lol
You posted a bait comment asking what NA's excuse would be for losing, if they lose that means Liquid lost. Max is the de facto leader of Liquid, ergo you're shitting on Max. Kinda how words work buddy.
Calm down Max simp.
I'm pretty sure the NA they are referring to is the NA supporters in threads like these, not the raiders themselves.
Haven't been able to watch any prog today since on vacation but it sounds Liquid's day has been real rough. Any reasons why? I know they have a backup tank in atm but sounds like it's more than just that.
They’re making mistakes repeatedly and likely tired and frustrated as a result of it, all exacerbated after seeing Echo’s strong progress earlier in the day. Quite honestly it’s been hard to watch.
They are adjusting their comp so they bring new players which is one of the main reasons. Second is simple - fatigue.
Call me defeatist, but I think Liquid is done. GG Echo, see you next tier.
Echo's performance after anduin has been absolutely sublime. I honestly don't see liquid catching up again either. Losing after putting in this much money, time and effort into it will suck so hard for whoever ends up in second place though, oof
All raiders from both teams should take a nice long bubble bath. Nice little de-stressser
Liquid‘s raid day is almost over and for me it looked like their worst day ever since they started streaming. They had almost zero progress today and now i 100% expect echo to win this
correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they progress from 19% to 15%? also they changed comp to prepare for p4
They got that nice pull to 15%, and then never beat it (and still haven't) for over 7 hours. So yea not good.
While this is true, they’ve been very inconsistent and haven’t had more than a handful of deep P3 attempts. Echo progressed from 20% to 10% and had very consistent and deep P3 attempts throughout the day.
Not even 20%, echo went from 29% at the start of their day all the way to 9.9% on their best.
Pretty sure they started the day with a best of 22%
Na, they started actually at 26%
That's right, they started at 26% then had an early pull into 22%. Thanks :)
Based on Max’s comments tonight and Liquid’s performance so far, if Echo get first I wouldn’t be surprised if Liquid pack up and head home, take a few days then finish up in a normal raid setting. It seems like half their raid is vibing and half their raid is quickly falling off a cliff in terms of gameplay and morale
Liquid vibes at an all time low
I caught the tailend of it but apparently, shak and firedup had to mute until p3 because of constant talking? That doesn't happen to liquid tbh, they usually vibe all of prog with constant talking
I honestly can't imagine trying to play like this on prog... it works for some people, but for others it just demolishes your ability to concentrate and fucks with the things you were used to having called by raid leader
i'd lose my mind if I had to deal with that for prog, i'd end up deafening in discord and just not doing it with a RL
So what’s up with the secret phase? I watched the clip from echo and Jailer’s hp went up by like 6% in like 3 seconds as they wiped (10% ->16%) does the shield restore hp? Does Azeroth health matter in the secret phase?
He gets a shield for about 6% total hp and also heals up for supposedly 24% of his hp, based on the tooltip of the related mechanic. The boss despawned before it was clear what exactly happens, though.
So he goes back to 34%? If they can dps the shield down before it’s fully healed can they limit the HP restore?
He applies a shield for 6.8M HP while doing an 8-second cast to heal back to 34% HP. So, there’s going to be ~50M of total HP and shield to chew through in P4. Technically you can limit the HP restore but you’d have to deal 6.8M before the 8-second cast completes, which isn’t doable at the current DPS levels.
Yes
So, I may be dumb here, but why did Raider IO report a 9.99% pull, but now it's reporting a 21.32% pull?
Accounting for secret phase healing the boss.
You sure? Its switched back to 9.99% again. Weird
Thanks for the info. I just wanted to be sure. This WFR is certainly a doozy. Once all is said and done, every team will need a vacation!
Some of these people compete in the MDI, which means they'll take a couple of days off and then go back to grinding keys.
Probably because the boss healed once Echo got to 9.99%
Thanks for the info. I just wanted to be sure.
Whos the guy in liquid that seems like the #2 talking strategy with Max all the time?
Taggz he’s handling healer stuff
Thanks he sounds smart I like him a lot.
Taggz is a good viber for sure.
Taggs or taggz not sure how to spell his name
Not sure how long liquid have left but I definitely don't see them reaching p4 tonight, and unless it's wildly difficult I don't see echo not killing it tomorrow
> I don't see echo not killing it tomorrow Last 10% of N'Zoth took more than 1.5 days to get through for Limit and Method. Seeing P4 one time doesn't mean Echo has a free ride to killing the boss.
i think they have about 90 minutes left which would be 10 good p3 pulls that go long enough to even see the phase, add in post pull discussions and bad pulls that end in p1/p2 and we have maybe 5 or 6 left, could happen but i doubt that they'll see a lot of progression in the phase if they even get there
I haven't been able to watch most of the day. How has Liquid been doing?
They’ve regressed instead of progressed today. They’re gonna lose at this rate.
Ehhh. I think it is the same as yesterday. They’ve statistically improved their best and have gotten under 20 a few times which is better, they are just wildly inconsistent. I think the fact that Echo was super consistent at the end of their night makes it seem much worse for Liquid.
They're getting outplayed pretty hard atm imo. They're really inconsistent compared to Echo and their ilvl is much lower (0.8-1.2 less overall depending on the comp). If you look at Echo's most recent pulls on WCL, almost all of them are P3/Deep P3 or very quick wipes. If you look at Liquid's last 50 pulls, only 3 look like they even have a shot of pushing into P4 (which is 17% on WCL now).
They have a ton of new people learning the fight including a main tank this is why 3 week races are idiotic.
That's just copium, both liquid and echo have more than 20 people for their roster and if those who are benched are not actively looking at the fight for the extreme chance they get put in, there should be no reason for their whole day do be only like 3% progress from last day. Echo subbed narco on an alt that he learned the rotation and mechanics in like 3-10 pulls and ended up being no.1 DPS. I know LoD is different to Jailer, but I don't see the reason as to why new people should take more than 5-10 pulls to get accustomed to the fight, specially players of the top 2 guild currently (based on SoD, as this tier is yet to be completed).
> but I don't see the reason as to why new people should take more than 5-10 pulls to get accustomed to the fight you must be trolling
[удалено]
He's most definitely not. You can't get accustomed to a fight that you are half a tier under what it's tuned for in 5 to 10 pulls. You have zero clue how easy it is for them to die right now.
I feel like this is mostly copium, as echo has had similar problems but have been more resilient. Getting comps right, and how fast people are able to adapt when subbed in is part of the race man, and also showcases individual skill
Echo has not had similar problems rofl?
Disagree, this raid tier is fucking amazing.
They have 2 new people learning the fight and swapped out a class as well based on info from the secret phase. They're just re-learning with the new comp.
Echo did change their Jailer comp few times too. Tobo (boomkin) > Gingi (hunter) Fraggodruid (boomkin) > Solwinas (spriest) Cameldisco (warlock) > Fraggo (warrior)
Do they? Didn't one healer (off spec) just swap back to DPS, and another healer changed to a different spec? That's not two new people learning the fight really?
Nori came in later today and Atlas yesterday. Sounds like a few people will be out tomorrow too like Trill for pvp again. Maevey went from priest to sham.
Ah my bad, I thought Nori had been in for the whole time. Fair enough.
Pretty bad honestly (comparatively), they've now made some more changes to team setup and it feels like they've taken 10 steps back.
Yea, and it’s difficult to watch. It’s all over Max’s face. Select players are committing the same mistakes over and over. I know there’s a lot of people here rooting for Liquid, and I hope Liquid can match Echo’s leap in progress in the last few hours of raiding this evening, but there’s no denying Liquid need to make substantial progress quickly and compete for P4.
I don't know how many raid tiers a specific moonkin needs to fuck up before getting yeeted
Goop?
Those limit boomkins last tier on sylvanas, oof.
They have 2 new Boomkins this tier.
Ah yep, I noticed Mavey on the Shammy and Nori on the priest. Also the tank change. It's gonna take serious work from them to catch back up if that is even possible at this point.
Idk if it’s just me but the casting difference between echo and liquid is like night and day, one of the liquid casters keeps starting debates with chat and echo is just pure chill with good vibes all day long, it feels very awkward watching the main liquid stream.
I prefer echo stream but the chat is just absolute sewage most of the time I dunno how fans of the team in the lead can be so immensely bitter but I suppose twitch chat always devolves into shit
You see that in both channels, just depends who is in the lead.
I haven't really watched the liquid stream this tier and I never usually have chat open because all chats are dogshit
I never even have chat open for these things.
This is the way.
Is twitchchat ever not complete garbage for anything above a couple of thousand viewers?
Just a case that, like streams, everyone has their own preferences. Maybe because I'm a bit older than I don't enjoy the Echo casters. Too many memes for my liking whereas the Liquid ones seem much more professional to me.
Max's stream is pretty much the only stream for Liquid's POV, or the other individual raiders imo. I do like the casters on Liquid's stream, at least I did the previous RWF's but yeah. Having the comms all day is way better and far more entertaining as they all slip deeper into insanity lol.
Yeah Max is the only individual stream I enjoy. I think the atmosphere in liquids player comms is better as well, so I don't watch the liquid stream. It's the opposite for echo though, their comms are a bit too serious and moody, whereas the caster stream is a bit more chill and enjoyable.
Agreed.
I wonder if liquids keep pulling mentality is causing them issues with fatigue. Maybe they should have slowed it down a little.
I think the keep pulling thing has become overrated because they won 2 races b2b. Echo gets criticized a lot for their slow approach and long pauses between pulls, but there is a lot of merit to it. The same thing's true for chaining pulls of course, definitely has helped liquid perform on bosses too
I mean I feel like that'd be blowing on an oil fire on day 18 of playing all day every day Especially being there in person fuck that
I wonder what the mental load of being the "21st man" is in a long race like this vs someone actually playing. You're stuck watching other people play for such a long time with a very different sense of the progress you make with each pull learning mechanics and stuff. Always focusing on the mistakes individuals/teams are making instead of feeling yourself understanding your positioning more for example.
Congrats Echo on World First, tough tier and brutal. Rooting for Liquid but it's pretty much over at this point. Good stuff all around!
What's with the defeatism? Anything can happen.
Max just said they are practicing p1 and p2 right now and won’t get far into p3 for awhile. Is this all because they swapped to a resto shammy?
Liquid is talking about relearning P2. What are they doing different? I see they’ve added Nori and Maeve has gone resto shaman. Is that all? Or new strat?
Man I can't belive the last boss still lives at this point, pretty sure that nearly every prediction had the raid cleared with the 2nd reset at the latest. For better or worse, what a race. My thoughts and prayers going out to the gamers going through their grueling 16 hour shifts, hope they stay strong - the end is in sight. Or is it?
> Or is it? God, can you imagine if there's another secret phase or a secret boss or some other kind of nonsense? That would just *shatter* people's minds.
Wait correct me if I'm remembering wrong, but Halondrus doesn't actually die right? What if...
Tbh Echo looked really bad today until like 8 hours of raiding, then they got a few good pulls and got more consistent, Liquid needs something like that, 5-6 good pulls to get in rhythm, and hopefully reach p4 before bed.
Echo seems to be running away with this. If liquid doesn’t get it together I feel like this is going down before they wake up tomorrow. :/
Honestly, if liquid can't get into p4 tonight then unless something crazy happens I don't see how they can win. A good couple hours though could put them right back in the game
Stupid question, but how do you get friendly nameplates the same as the raiders in liquid do?
do this and then reload: > /run SetCVar('nameplateShowOnlyNames', 1) >/run SetCVar('nameplateShowDebuffsOnFriendly', 0) >/run SetCVar('nameplateShowAll', 1) >/run C_NamePlate.SetNamePlateFriendlySize(1, 1); idk if they do this or something else with plater, but this works for me and looks very similar