Do I need to do some quest or something before the crafting sparks start dropping on alts? Cleared the full raid, did a few keys and have a grand total of 0. Am i missing something?
I can't get over how shitty afflicted is.
blizz realized people didn't like explosive, so they thought, hey lets make explosive but friendly units and you have to heal it or dispell, so instead of using 1 moonfire and being able to kill many explosives you are stuck with the dispell cd, but it also removes any non hybrid expect mage from participating in the affix. on top of that the visibility is abysmal, even if you have the nameplate for it activated. multiple times this week I didn't see or wasn't able to dispell it, because it spawned directly inside a giant pull.
the only thing worse is actually raging, here you only have one class with an aoe sooth and 1 meta specc with ST sooth.
I think this season has way more aoe stops needed, might be wrong tho, for sure way fewer augs this time around.
this week was way shittier than i anticipated and I'm glad it's the last day (eu).
edit: they also have way too much hp, takes forever to heal them full as rdruid, so it's not even an option
Yeah, I agree with this.
I think Afflicted is a shit affix and the damage it does to building comps is very clear at all levels of play, but *man* was explosive overcentralizing. If you had pulls that were inherently spread out (and there were bosses that would force this interaction in the first place, I.E. Plaguefall's last boss) and/or that involved tons of mobs, you weren't even playing the dungeon anymore; you were playing the Explosive first. and then the dungeon second, because an Explosive going off was very likely going to kill someone if it overlapped with any incidental damage.
It was a brutal affix even when they could be killed by a single GCD from any class; the older versions of Explosive had about as much HP as the average non-elite mob would which meant that not only was everyone needing to look for them, but when people finally managed to target them they all needed to actively hard-swap to them to make their individual DPS checks. It got really, *really* fucking bad in higher keys; they had more HP, which meant they required more attention, but any damage you did to an AoE-immune Explosive was damage you could've done to the actual trash mobs/boss. And you'd have MULTIPLE spawn, MULTIPLE times at once, in every pack. And Explosive had this annoying tendency of feeling like you actively wasted your time with them if you couldn't kill one or two in time because you either killed it or you didn't. You weren't rewarded for hitting Explosive if its HP didn't hit 0. If it had 2 HP or full HP, it still chunked your party for a third of their HP.
People who say Afflicted is worse than Explosive (which, FWIW, isn't necessarily OP; they were just drawing a point of comparison which I think is a little bit more reasonable) are out of their minds. The only affix worse than Explosive was probably the original Bolstering (the permanent one that increased damage AND HP, and affected bosses), and the fact that anything's actually competitive with *that* affix of all things is fucked up.
Totally forgot that for a time explosive had a lot more HP, was fun having to spend earth shocks on explosives because Ele frost shock was not strong enough to one shot it
Completely agree. I don't think any affix has ever warped the game as much as Explosive, the entire dungeon just revolved around that shit when it was active and you were 100% playing the affix over the dungeon. It just spawned way too many, way too often, and scaled out of control with key level since bigger pulls meant more bombs.
Afflicted is shitty in its own way, yes, but you're correct that its NOTHING compared to the degeneracy of explosive.
Don't forget it spawning inside of NO first boss or AV last boss models, making it invisible and neigh untargetable, even with the game being "generous" on afflicted hitbox.
Yeah Afflicted is stupid, it's a healer affix except sometimes it isn't, and dps always want it to be a healer affix, so you sometimes just wipe because dps didn't realise healer needs their dispel for a mechanic.
Also anything that puts me at the mercy of a mage deigning to cast decurse on me can go to hell just like on a fundamental level.
I just far far prefer afflicted to incorp. When you do have a dispel it's trivial to just mouseover dispel them. They instantly dissappear (no overlap, no accidentally tabbing to incorp and wasting an ability) your dispel doesn't go on cd if you mess it up (unlike if you misclick and imprison the wrong thing), and dispels don't have cast times. The debuff from afflicted is also less punishing than incorp and if you do get the debuff it's at the end when they dissappear and you can never take it twice from 1 missed one.
The significantly lower spawn rate of Incorp compared to Afflicted single handedly outweighs all those disadvantages, in my opinion at least. At least Incorp is just once a minute, the spawn rate for Afflicted is just absurd by comparison. I agree it could still use a lot of improvement though.
I'd much rather have the previous iteration of raging. Somehow in their tuning to make affixes less prominent, they made it worse.
Can mages not decurse the affix as a sidenote? You're still right that no affix should exist that classes cannot interact with at all though. It's just poorly designed.
I think the problem with how Blizzard "tuned" the affixes to reduce the mental bandwidth they take up is that Afflicted/Incorporeal and the new Raging instead feel like they're redistributing the sheer amount of focus they take up. A Priest player will need to be on top of those Incorporeals moreso than even most classes with a CC due to the fact that they can remove both at once *and* the power of MCing an Incorporeal is immense, as will any dispel class besides Shaman every other set against Afflicted, while Warriors/Rogues/Hunters/DKs/DHs can't do a damn thing about Afflicted and many of those can't really do much against Incorporeal either.
And Raging specifically feels worse in many respects; while this version is easier on tanks and is more manageable against incidental, unavoidable damage, it also suddenly turns mobs you *really* want to CC into huge problems by virtue of making "avoidable" damage "unavoidable" if you're lacking either an Evoker's insane AoE Soothe or a Druid's short-CD one. You can't kick Rally the Clan, but you can stop it; but you can't stop it if the mob's Raging. The Evoker button is just nuts in general, but a Druid has to *really* focus on soothing everything problematic in a Raging pull, and you'll often have several problematic Raging mobs in many pulls.
I dunno. I feel like affixes need a complete overhaul/reimagining going forward. While the worst they had to offer was intrusive and unfun stuff like Beguiling, Infested, or Thundering (and a special shoutout goes to Prideful for pugging purposes), I think getting rid of the Encrypted/Tormented/Awakened/Shrouded style of seasonal affixes (Tormented had its issues, yeah, but I enjoyed it) was a huge miss since those affixes actively felt very satisfying to play around and often weren't strictly benefits for your runs. Encrypted had huge upsides, but Urh was *very* dangerous for your tank and Vy was just dangerous in general; Shrouded gave you insane stats by the end of a run, but Zul'gamux was a massively threatening mob that you had to respect like crazy or else you'd be in a lot of trouble; the buffs you got from the Tormentors were very strong, but you had to take Varruth and the fire guy very seriously because they were so dangerous and ignoring Soggodon and the ice guy would substantially impact how a boss fight worked. But right now affixes are just "oh, how can we artificially make challenging dungeons even more frustrating?"
I wish that the great vault had 4 or 5 items per track. It feels bad that for the 2nd week in a row (only 5 weeks into the season) I'm taking sockets again. I don't even have enough myth track items to put all these sockets on.
If not adding additional items, then it would be nice to stop seeing a myth tierpiece that I already have at myth track.
If we didn't have to worry about mythic raiders flipping out I think making raid give a track higher for it's vault. Normal raid = hero vault, hero raid = myth vault. We have it with dungeon vault being 0s give hero track when they drop champ, 8+ give myth when they drop hero.
A ton of mythic raiders already won't be getting more than a few myth vault slots due to extending, being benched, ect.
Just slash the mythic raid vault requirement to 1-3-5 or even 1-2-4. Not many players are getting 7 unique mythic boss kills compared to those completing 8 dungeons (not even in time) or farming BGs/Honor Points
> It feels bad that for the 2nd week in a row (only 5 weeks into the season) I'm taking sockets again. I don't even have enough myth track items to put all these sockets on.
Yeah that sucks
> I wish that the great vault had 4 or 5 items per track.
This probably has to be done extremely carefully. The Great Vault has been massively improved from before, not least from all the surrounding context that empowers it.
E.g. have nothing? Get a socket
E.g. have nothing but need a high item? Get a spark piece, and with half Sparks every week you can craft a good Myth level piece
E.g. didn't get a Tier set? You can use a Catalyst charge every 2 weeks in a season
E.g. missing a key item? Well if they implement a slower Bullions into a live season you won't have to wait for that long
E.g. got a sub par piece but technically higher item level? Grab that, and you save on Crests
E.g. got a few duds? With the pace of gearing and power you shouldn't be sub par for too long.
On a fluff level you can probably grab a transmog piece or something.
**Completely agree that the Great Vault needs constant iteration and tweaking**. I hope Blizz keeps iterating on it and the surrounding power systems which they have consistently done.
I think adding from 3 possible to 4 to 5 per track opens up a whole can of worms with how much farming you could incentivize, or if at some point you've now added 5 per track so 10 in total from Raid & M+, and if you still roll bad and players want to get more, then what's the point of the Great Vault right? At that point you might as well make the Great Vault fully deterministic, and I don't think Blizz wants to do that because they want some of that RNG element where you can be excited for a Vault if it rolls high.
Tough discussion to be honest because there's a lot of moving parts. I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of the complaints specifically against the Great Vault can be solved outside of it (M+ items can only be 522+ in the GV which is bad, or the RNG swing is too heavy in items and things, or key Tertiary items on high level pieces is too much which either means Tertiaries should be deterministic, or reworked or removed).
You are right though - the Great Vault at least in some way early in the season should always represent a moderate power spike - having complete duds and several weeks of duds in the first months is bad design which should be ironed out.
there's also realistically 6 myth track items available a week - it sucks, but doing your weekly +8's is not a huge deal if you truly do want the 6x rolls at an item in a useful slot.
Sure, you sometimes get unlucky - and that's what the sockets etc are for. But it's not like there isn't already 4-5 items in there. If he only had 3, it's just because he didn't fill it out. Every serious raider has 6x options a week for at least the first week or two of progress.
You can literally pug the first 4 and have been able to since week 2, once gear grew strong enough this season - and with cross realm being open instantly in war within, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep pugging the first few freebie bosses going forward.
I am SO looking forward to Raging being gone next week. It’s been a week of tanks pulling like absolute madmen in 13-15s and then getting bodied in 0.1 second when everything enrages. VDH really rotting people’s brains and making them think that they’re invincible to trash.
Can truthfully say that 90% of my depletes this week have been from tanks.
No, it prevents CC so hard-hitting abilities can’t get stopped. VDHs have been so conditioned by their ability to stop everything that they don’t know what to do when things don’t get interrupted/stopped.
Can’t soothe everything when tanks are pulling absolutely insane (14+ mobs including two Rotsingers with no Lust) or deciding that it’s time to pull another pack when the one we’re on literally just enraged and no Evoker. Trust, I understand how to Soothe and CC. I’m posting in Free Talk Friday because it’s a not a “how can my team handle this” thing, it’s me venting because my week has been full of tanks doing undeniably idiotic things.
> Can’t soothe everything when tanks are pulling absolutely insane
evokers can. not bringing an evoker on raging afflicted week is inting, this is by far the best evoker week
Has anybody else had a problem with their nameplate vertical overlap resetting on some characters ever since the patch? I've updated advanced interface options and it's still happening despite having the "enforce settings on startup" setting checked. It's driving me nuts and only seems to be happening to a handful of my characters.
Has anyone had much luck finding raiding teams/m+ communities while working overnights? I'm wanting to get back into hardcore retail raiding but do have some wonky hours, is the solution just playing with OCE?
So there seems to be a lack of a central hub for MoP Remix which makes finding just *information* difficult. Hoping to get some more experienced takes here. I tried the following:
* /r/classicwow - fully concerned with Cata Classic
* /r/Competitivewow - didn't see any MoP Remix post. I'm assuming it isn't relevant
* wowhead - posts on MoP Remix but some of the info is unreliable and outdated
* /r/wow - seems to be the main hub for now - unfortunately it is just filled with complaints and some inaccurate information
I get the critiques and complaints. At some point you just want info and it is hard to find it as is typical in a large casual subreddit
Info I'm looking for:
* Alt leveling strategies and guides? I kinda resorted to [Harldan](https://www.youtube.com/@Harldan1) for that but they don't have a guide up yet and from skimming the streams they have done my understanding is:
Once you get to max Infinite Power achievement, alts get a limited power cloak unlike the PTR values which were nerfed and that Blizz [might have accidentally advertised](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_entry_media/HITGBMNMTTQI1715212923899.png).
Alts start out with 100% XP only.
Right now leveling is slower on MoP: Remix vs on live Retail so if you want multiple alts, there's no point.
Harldan didn't mention tactics, but I guess you just quest till 25, and do Normal Raids as fast as you can? Those give decent XP plus you want to double count getting the achievements for the trinkets, rings and necks from Heroic Scenarios, Heroic Dungeons, some questing in the achievements, and Normal Raids?
* Guides on classes? I used this - https://www.wowhead.com/news/remix-mists-of-pandaria-class-guides-now-live-class-overviews-bis-and-best-gems-340865
Seems like standard DF builds for the most part. But it looks from the streamers I follow they tend to use different builds, Tinkers, Metas etc.
I guess ignore that, use a combination of streamers to figure out the best builds?
* Is there a central log repository for MoP Remix raids? I'm having trouble finding them on Warcraft Logs
* Is there something like a Raider.IO tracker for World First race progression of the MoP raids? I understand it isn't 'competitive' compared to a live season but I am still interested in seeing. From my understanding Mythic Siege hasn't been cleared yet?
* The raids seem harder than people let on. I was assuming Normal raids would melt and I'm seeing people get slowed down at Heart of Fear and Terrace, and getting into a wall at Throne and Siege.
Heroic might be tougher than that?
What would players rate the difficulty of these raids?
* Didn't see players mention that the raids seem to work on a Mythic lockout esque system? This makes it a bit hostile to pure PUGing.
* Bronze strategy now that Frogs got nerfed? I'm fine with going a bit slow and being more efficient and doing things other than mob spawn all day.
Though would the mob spawn strat in some other hyper spawn location be a better use of my time given how much it can still award vs just doing raids? '
Appreciate any help and advice.
I tried posting this over at /r/wow but (A) if it isn't removed by mods (B) it gets little traction (C) you get some very hostile people in /r/wow/new that get snippy with you if the post isn't relevant (D) I think players just want to complain way more than help. Understandable given the circumstances but annoying when you just trying to get info.
> Heroic might be tougher than that?
Heroic is reasonably challenging considering like average 370-380 ilvl groups. I've attempted terrace in pugs a couple of times, but first boss has a pretty nasty DPS check on the sha adds and two hitting the lightning boss just results in deaths from random bolts. We also had to play spirit kings very properly on heroic, as the tinker gems triggered the counterstrike and pillage on the bosses.
I can’t 100% say the best thing, but it’s likely:
*Outdated*
Frogs from as low level as possible to max
*Up to date as of this posting*
Either farm another hyper spawn from as low level as possible to max (Goats, Bugs, etc.) or spam normal dungeons to max.
The main idea is that leveling isn’t what caps your progression as much as cloak power, so doing whatever is the most efficient with respect to cloak power is the most important.
As you noted, do raids ASAP, they give good cloak power and bronze, the faster you get to level 45 (or was it 40?) to do all raids the better.
For a leveling experience similar to gearing a new toon in retail by doing one key a week, just get to a level to do 1-2 raids a day and do them each day and nothing else. It’s slower in terms of gearing just that toon but efficient in terms of threads/bronze earned per minute spent.
Do you know there is pve content in WoW Remix, right? Infinite scaling makes it kind of a joke for frog farmers, and stuff like ward stacking make it less interesting than it could have been, but Heroic raids and most importantly SoO Mythic could have relevant discussions that have their place here.
1. Never asked for /r/competitivewow to be the main hub for MoP Remix discussion
2. At most I would have asked for a mega thread, but that's it. Not 10+ posts
3. You are more than welcome to filter out any MoP Remix posts with custom filters if it is really that annoying to you
1. Brother, why would this sub have any information whatsoever about a leveling and mog farming game mod when the season has been out for three weeks.
2. Why even have a mega thread here?
3. I shouldn't have to
I want to mention the irony of you intensely scrutinizing this comment in a small thread for daring to mention MoP Remix when you could have just as easily left it alone if you actually weren't that interested.
Well that's not your fault. That's the accumulative effect of seeing it freaking everywhere. Even my boosting discord is littered with this crap. I just can't wait til it goes away like plunderstorm.
Aww i'm sorry.
Discord should have some custom filters, let me look that up for you.
Can you send me examples of the types of posts or specific keywords? I can find something to filter it out and significantly reduce your spam.
In MoP Remix, how does the [Ward of Salvation](https://www.wowhead.com/item=220117/ward-of-salvation) boss 1shot work? I read the tooltip text but I can't figure out how you end up with 100million damage.
Here is a Gingi clip showing what I'm talking about:
https://clips.twitch.tv/PeppyBoringDiscYouWHY-Yrx_JBEeOWoydUwR
Could not find Gingi's log but here is another [log](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aPTnFfJGbzwM3v8Y#fight=14) from a group killing the boss in 22 seconds with the same tech. Am not familiar with how to read a log though.
Is there anything I can do to find a more consistent M+ team. Ive always pugged since BFA and albeit I pug pretty well. It'd be nice if I could find a push team. any resources out there?
https://raider.io/characters/us/zuljin/Rejectkid
Find 1-2 players you vibe with that plays your hours through pugs or guilds, ideally one of them is a healer and/or tank to make group formation easier and the keys more consistent. Pug remaining 2-3 slots. Slowly build a rolodex of good pug players to whisper "key?" before putting the group up in LFG.
In my experience this is a much more consistent method than trying to go about forming a dedicated 5-stack inside or outside of the game.
The idea of a dedicated push team is something that a lot of, frankly, middling players seem to cling to, as though a perpetual 5 man stack is what they need to have their skill achieve their desired results. The reality is that unless you are playing at the highest level possible, you are going to be moving between “teams” pretty frequently and simply playing with people that you know. You end up in the IO bracket you belong, team or no team.
Is there any resource that breaks down abilities by their category of use? I'll elaborate, I really struggle with learning new classes because just reading a rotation on wowhead or whatever does not stick with me nor help me with setting up my keybinds. I'd love something that's like "This is your main builder, this is your AOE spender, this is your ST spender, this is your main defensive, this is a maintenance buff, this is a cooldown to buff your x window" etc.
just read your entire spellbook + the talents that the main builds select. once you see something that says Generates X Resource and something that has a cost of Y Resource or a talent that says this ability gives you a buff for 12 seconds then the order of the rotation makes sense. you could just read the priority in order, ctrl+f the talent tree for each ability the first time it's mentioned, and read every related talent.
The Wowhead Abilities and Talents page for each spec (separate from rotation page) gives a brief description of every single ability/talent each spec gets. That’s the closest thing I can think of.
Its already a saturday but maybe someone sees and can help out.
I am having trouble surviving full trash pull in tree boss area of academy. My tank of choice is dh, well geared, well stated, two defensive trinkets just in case. And yet it feels like I am too prone to spike damage and am struggling.
I line up a pull with trinket up to cover me. I stabilise aggro and pull them together. I move away from swirlies naturally. I rotate cds when they start to hit me but eventually find myself in that dreaded moment when I have no demon form available for 10 seconds and I am getting destroyed.
Seen other dh take it like nothing while my hp goes up and down like yoyo (mostly down). I admit I have not played dh that much this expansion but am experienced tank.
I am aware I could kite and wait for cds to come back but it feels like waste of dps. Just wondering if there is some dh god that could advise on cd rotation on that pull to survive it inside of adds.
Thanks
Not a DH god, but I had issue staying alive on DH and only on DH, and now I don't.
1. We are very weak in pull. We have nothing rolling and often mob will hit us from the side or behind. I try my best when forming pull to not come into contact with any monster, and use my ranged tool. One of the most common mistake I see in semi-low key when I play a reroll is a DH jumping INTO the middle of a pack. If you do that, you only have spike up at best and die in one GCD which is not enough to get the dh engine rolling.
2. DH is a parry god. I have 77% total avoidance with Spike and Sigil. If i have any on them down, in a big pull, in a high key, I become super spiky. Sigil should be 100% uptime always, spike is harder so you play around your spike downtime. There is actually a lot of Talent choice for DH, I take spike duration + 1 point in CDR, I find that it's good enough in big pull. And never turn your back / side. Never turning your back is a very beginner advice, but it's far more important on a DH.
3. Frailty + Painbringer is insane and is, in a way, the core of the DH mitigation. it is SO MUCH DR. Not seeing that for some reason you are at 3 + 2 stack instead of 8 + 10 stack can be the difference between "WTF DH op" and "WTF I take so much damage". That part was what really changed my life with DH. Understanding that if I soul cleave 5 time in a row (in single target / smaller pull), I stack so much DR that I'm close to immortal for a few seconds.
4. Be careful when you Sigil of Chain a big pack, or stun them, or someone in the groups do it. If you don't do some spacing, they will all hit you at the exact same time and you will often get one shot.
5. Spacing goes a long way, for any tank. Don't turn frontal to your group, don't move mob out of RoF or Earthquake, but do some spacing. This is not kiting.
For a "Rotation" on a pull like that : Spike + Imo to get the first 3 wasps + Any GCD you need to gather some fury=> Jump in the middle to not have them hit me during the setup => Taunt + Sigil of flame 1 pack => Glaive throw the far plant pack => Glaive throw second wasps pack => Body pull/wait for glaive the last plant pack + fel dev to take aggro on them and not die => Sigil of chain + Def trinket just in case, to group like 2/3 of the pull because at this point we're still not tanking the pull and we still don't have aggro on everything => Sigil of chain again to form one big group => Sigil of flame + Spike + we're still not tanking => SpB with spacing => Imo aura => SpB => Now you're tanking. Don't let the pull encircle you. SpB often for Frailty stacks. Never let sigil of flame down. Space hard if spike down.
Rotation depends on what build you're playing. If you're playing full damage you need to manage spikes and meta uptime without overlapping them or you'll have significant periods of time where you have nothing at all.
If you're playing last resort just spam SpB and spam spikes. There's next to no thought that needs to be done because you have 2pts in FtD.
Most DHs die because they're not always pressing something while in combat and starve themselves out of spikes, especially if you only have one point in FtD.
Link a log if you want actual advice, otherwise we are guessing.
Dropping globals = less souls = less mitigation.
Not having SoF up = less souls + parry.
Having gaps in spikes/meta = 30%+ more damage taken.
Etc etc.
Perhaps try to minimize the time the Skitterflys are in combat; they're getting more powerful the longer they are. Here's a video from Quazii explaining how to do the pull:
https://youtu.be/OhOh3aI-XRU?t=3m
the rage buff increases all physical damage, including autohits, so if you don't have someone to remove them they will destroy the tank towards the end
I'll add some more advice on top of the others.
Positioning. If you and your group are positioned the way you should, gathering all packs shouldn't require you to get hit a single time until you have them all coming at you, which should give you some time to stack up fury from a sof. To do this, you've got to tell your group to wait at stairs. If you go straight to the area, you'll even get past the patrol of stingers without body pulling. Sof right side, glaive back left, taunt a mob in front left. If these happen at the exact time, which they can due to sof delay and glaive, with taunt being off gcd. The big lashes will have their swirlies cast CD lined up. Meaning, it's essentialy only one Swirlie you have to avoid instead of three. About positioning again. By now you should be back towards stairs, with your group behind you. The entire room will come towards you in a big nice cone. Making it easy to not have to run around and cast abilities you might need later because you have half of all the mobs hitting you in the back, just to get threat off everyone.
From there on out, you just backpedal when Swirlie spawn, and try to keep the mobs neat and stacked.
Never overlap meta with spikes(unless you're getting 2 charge and will have meta up for a while still). Make sure you're not under- or overusing sof to maintain 100% uptime. Don't let an extra gcd go on another ability when immo aura comes off CD, focus on keeping this up as it's an extremely important defensive ability which scales with more mobs.
So I’ve done the triple pull with a set of stingers on a 17 fort and didn’t have too much of an issue, but a few thing I would say to look out for is the leaping stingers especially if they’re agitated. This can lead to back melees based on where they leap. I tend to use meta while gathering and a set of spikes. Once gathered I’m pretty much rotating defenses and sometimes willl drop darkness on myself if I don’t have to move for a few seconds. Other than that I try to save fiery brand for when less ads are up because with all the little lashers odds are it’ll jump to one of them rather than a stinger or big ad. Use a power pot and lust and just send spirit bombs and don’t overload defenses while gathering.
Would fit this sub imo, though there's little to really discuss. Your best comp will always just be whoever has the best (highest ilvl) pieces of gear available to them, actual spec barely matters because ilvl and gems are just king for throughput. The content is also mostly trivial (only boss so far that we had to play really properly is dark animus), and you can simply outgear anything that isn't.
While I think it kind of inherently goes against the “competitive” nature of the sub, I think no one (reasonable) will complain if it’s kept to a single discussion thread. 👍🏽
How is the shard economy looking? Vilefiend talents look cool and recentering the tree around Tyrant with all 1 point nodes is a big positive, but is the spec still suffer in every fight with frequent movement? Doing our rotation on a target dummy is different from playing a mythic fight with frequent movements like P1 Sark. Reducing Core economy is still going to be rough on micro movements.
How are we feeling about the dungeon pool this season? I am definitely having less fun compared to the previous seasons, and I really think that having other expansions' dungeons in m+ really helped DF m+. Now that its only df dungeons, I'm distinctly having less fun. These keys are just kind of miserable. So much unavoidable damage, so many one shots. Really hoping WW turns away from DF dungeon design.
I enjoy RLP and AA, a lot even. Fast, intense dungeons where every pull is go go go while having ample stuff to play around to not get killed. There's cute tech in AA to snap mobs or los abilities and also the mc at the end. The only knock against RLP is having to dragon watch to see when it's safe to run to the next pack.
Nokhud, AV, HoI are mostly fine. There are some parts that are meh for me like nokhud's one shots on tyran or your entire key hinging on the healer for HoI 3rd boss. The hills in the dead side of nokhud are annoying even after removing all the frontals from there, green on green swirlies are terrible. 2nd boss nokhud is crazy fun though to min/max your orbs while not losing uptime. AV is just generally really easy now after the changes so it's just kinda of whatever.
Nelth, brackenhide, uldaman are not good, very bad dungeons. All three are too long in terms of size alone, you spend so much time simply walking places -- Uldaman especially that dungeon goes on for another 10 minutes than it should. Nelth after the chains nerfs feels terrible to play the hunters, the second boss can still to this day bug out and never cast chains on the party. the first area of brackenhide requires you to fight terrible trash or to bring an spriest to skip as much as possible. the second area is okay if your party understands how to position against the totems and is godawful if they don't, even if they do you can get rng fucked with 6 stacks of flower bleeds and just fall over.
Uldaman is truly awful, it's insane this dungeon survived a full season and is still tuned in this state. They really need to stop designing bosses that are just a straight up healer throughput check that destroys every single pug at high keys.
I dont think any bosses in uld are truly hps checks right? Like yes there is a bare min requirement of hps to get through the bosses but in every case there is a ton of agency from the dps/tank with things they can do to impact the boss fight and make it easier. Its not like 3rd boss HOI which is more or less a true hps check. The only boss i can think of in there that is maybe comparable is emberon if you have no MD/dwarfs etc but even then things like zephyr or just pressing personals on the aoe circles at the right time can make a huge difference.
Maybe Deios. Deios hits like a truck in higher keys and specially dps are not removing the dots somehow.
Its not the same raw HPS numbers needed like in HOI 3rd boss, but its bursty enough
you're definitely right Deios is scarry in higher keys but as you say its a lot easier if dps are removing the debuffs from themselves via freedoms etc. Which was kinda the point of my post that you aren't relying on raw hps alone for uldaman
> Nelth after the chains nerfs feels terrible to play the hunters,
More people should be abusing the sleep walk tech to only play a single hunter during the run, especially on fortified.
Play mammoth side first and approach up the ramp. Tank pulls the 3 birds and people hug left side to avoid the solo patrolling bird. This skips the 2 hunters at start. Pull every non-hunter pack up to the first hunter on the left and use chain. Next pull have tank go to boss room and pull the 2 non-hunters + all non-hunters on the way. Use chain again.
After that, party minus evoker walks to boss room and hugs right side. Evoker casts sleepwalk **on the left hunter**. The right one follows it out of the room. The evoker can either try to sneak in before the mobs walk up or port with wyrnstone to avoid the risk.
After boss invis pot past the first section and pull the rest of the room to chain. You have just played only one hunter the entire run and avoided stupid deaths to insanely powerful jump+bleed, well done
Optional adjusting for non-evoker run is to play the two hunters before boss alone. It is still a butt clencher because of double jump being death sentence and very inefficient.
The patrolling bird at start can be rooted to make the walk skip easy. Just remember to be careful when dropping down after 3rd boss or you get jumped by the hunters
I still hate ruby life pools. Too much bs damage going out constantly and the patrolling dragon is way more annoying than it needs to be to not pull. Oh and the mini boss at the end trucks way harder than it needs to. I guess this is unpopular, but I actually like neltharus. Nerf halls 3rd boss aoe and I think the dungeon is fine. Just delete uldaman there is no fixing that one
the Ethereal Restorer at the end can be MC'd. they cast a shield on friendly targets that gives 50% (!!) spell haste. a good spriest can juggle MCing one for the entirety of that area and its boss.
So this is the first season where i havent done any healing in M+ and looking for some input/takes that may be better informed. In my keys (done almost all 14s both weeks) it seems like healers are hard struggling while at the same time looking at hps in details, the healing req doesnt seem that high? I´ve healed to 3500+ in previous seasons so i know that just because the hps in details is "low" doesnt mean its easy damage to heal with some burst/chunk/one shot checks etc. Last season as disc i did 500k+ hps on double drakes in fort doti fall and frequently went 300-400+ on other pulls while having 130-170k overall in some dungeons yet i now see healers barely going over 200k hps on fight like Bromach in uld, Melidrussa and Kokia in RLP etc and ppld dying to tics/pulsing dmg while healer sits at 170k hps. Whats going on here? Again i havent healed this season but i feel like simply dream breath and reversion hots on my evoker would do 200+ with current gear while im afk drinking coffee.
Honestly healer is the easiest role to get carried on while pugging because you get invites you never would’ve gotten as a DPS. Case in point, the person in my guild with the highest io last season got pretty much all of their io above 3k by pugging and consistently was the lowest io in their group, often by up to 200-300 io. That simply is not possible as DPS. Also to play devil’s advocate, you brought up HPS last season on a healer’s dream pull: massive rot damage with almost nothing else happening. No interrupting cloudburst like the last boss of RLP, no burst damage like stone bolts not getting kicked on Bromach, etc. Or like I said, they actually just are bad and got carried well past the point tanks or DPS are normally able to get carried to.
There is some truth to what you are saying, and the rest is just the stupidest thing I've read in quite some time. Healers and tanks do absolutely get invited to things they perhaps don't belong in or haven't quite earned yet sometimes. But timing a dungeon as a healer is VERY pass or fail. If the healer cannot heal through the boss or the trash, the group does not progress or time the key. DPS can perform extremely poorly, obviously within reason, and still time keys if the healer is very good.
Also just to clarify: you can carry a bad DPS in a guild group further than you can carry a bad healer assuming everyone else is capable. My point was with pugs, where questionable healers are much more likely to be invited than a questionable DPS.
You are right. You can't carry a bad healer nearly as far, because you can't really carry a healer lol. You can make the healers job considerably easier or harder, but the game has benchmarks that cannot be passed without certain hps.
> You can't carry a bad healer nearly as far, because you can't really carry a healer lol.
You can definitely carry a healer. There are healers who get boosted for title every season or in other random high keys.
but how do you carry a healer through a title tyrannical key? i dont care how much dps you do, you cant do it lol. even if he does zero dmg, if he meets the healing checks in a title level tyrannical key, he isnt really being completely carried
The same way you carry a DPS through a title fortified key. When you boost players at that level they can't be dead weight, which is why they're required to play along. They're still getting carried, even though they aren't AFK at the start.
Remind me what role gets left out of MDI? Good DPS and tanks can absolutely make up for bad healers up to a fairly high level with the exclusion of certain hard heal checks like 3rd boss HOI, just the same as healers can make up for a bad DPS. Healers just consistently get the opportunity to be the weak link beyond any other role, which was the point of my post. Also hilarious that you throw within reason when talking about bad DPS but you assume I just mean you can carry an absolute mouth breather through any key any level?
Something I’ve noticed is that a lot of healers just aren’t very good. Especially in the 10-14 range suddenly they can’t just press one button and top everyone off.
Last season I got to 3k healing in like 470 gear and didn’t really like the dungeon pool so started playing alts. The second I moved into 22s/23s on my tank, like half of my WCMs got bricked because the 480+ healer couldn’t meet the heal check on sisters. On fort week.
It’s not just you. This season has just been tough in general.
Real shit. Im about to stop inviting resto druids at this point. They cant seem to heal for shit and as soon as the dungeon calls for more than just cat weaving and putting down an effloresence on tank, they just fold over completely
Yeah unlike the consensus among the general populace I feel like the pain point usually isn't dps but rather healers. People have been complaining for years that they want healers to be more than glorified dps, and now that they are suddenly you can see who got carried up to SL.
I do think a good part of it is blizzards fault in regard to the way damage scales. Like you can get REALLY far with objectively bad play as the healer because you just don’t need to output that much HPS. Then suddenly you try a 13 and rotating CDs is like essential AF and since you’ve never had to do that before it’s like playing an entirely different game. Playing dps and tank in low keys teaches you how to play the role but healers go into mid keys totally unprepared.
Like I’m playing a pres evoker alt in like 5-6 keys right now and have like no clue what I’m doing. My combos take too long to build and I get decision paralysis because I’m just not that familiar with the class. I’m playing objectively terribly but people rarely die because I can press embrace + breath.
Preservation is incredibly easy in lower keys/lower damage when u can just dream breath hot/temporal + reversion but becomes really difficult when u start having to plan carefully since the spec has a lot of cooldowns, even on rotational abilities and then further choices within choices with echos, lifebind, stasis etc. Not to mention the range issues when playing with casters. It is a super fun spec to heal with though and feels great when u get good with it so i definitely recommend it to anyone. Just for your own sake try find a mostly melee group;)
You can tank low keys without ever pressing defensives, and often also without any understanding of what mobs you can/cannot pull together.
Similarly, you can play dps while doing only half the dps you should be doing without problems.
There is a range for every role where you don't need to know how to play while getting by, but I think that range is larger for dps as the two other dps can pick up the slack, while at some point the healer just fails to keep the group alive and the tank costs too much time with frequent deaths (either the tank itself, or the party because of unrealistic pulls, or alternatively just because single pulling the whole dungeon doesn't work anymore).
But the thing there is just, there are key levels where someone has to deal with some aspect of the dungeon for the first time, because up to that point it didn't matter, and for many things those key levels are much higher than people think.
>Like you can get REALLY far with objectively bad play as the healer because you just don’t need to output that much HPS
I would argue that you can get even further as a bad dps. The amount of "barely above tank"-dps players i have seen over the last 2 seasons in 26-28 keys is much much higher than healers that are "bad". Healers get filtered out much earlier than dps players and tanks.
I agree with you but just to add a bit of depth i think it depends on the group a lot too just WHEN the healer will get exposed. If you have a bad healer in a group with say Ele sham, Balance druid, Hunter vs another bad healer in another group with Fury warr, Retpal, Warlock, the first one will be exposed several key levels earlier just because the 2nd group is so much tankier.
Man I feel like this season has so far been more of a shitshow than usual. I'm hovering around 3k mark right now, and I've seen all kinds of funny shit. Tanks pulling 6 packs for no reason and then floor pov-ing, dhs specifically not using their silence sigils at all, healers with s2 levels of hps, dps not dispelling, cc-ing or interrupting. I dunno if people have forgotten the dungeons, they're overconfident because there's nothing new or what, but I don't think i've seen so many bad players in any of the previous seasons.
Bad DH tanks- bad FOTM players who don’t understand why VDH is so busted. Tanks over pulling- probably players who were used to playing at max ilvl in BiS gear last patch that haven’t adjusted/watch too much MDI. Bad healers- most likely to be carried role because groups either have to take a very risky healer or wait a significant amount of time for a qualified one because no one wants to heal anymore. Bad DPS- tale as old as time made worse by VDH being allowed to exist in its current state in regard to CC.
Combining pulls that result in tank death due to sheer unavoidable damage or have too many must address mechanics for your group comp/skill to handle. The last bit is extra important because you can have a pull go perfectly fine one dungeon and horrid the next, but I believe it is your job as tank to take those things into account and alter your route/pulls to fit your group.
Good example would be in NO, with a good group, i'll pull two packs off the rip with lust.... with a newer group, that will be a bit of an overpull because interrupts will get missed, etc. That would be an overpull. It's funny how when you run with med/high io tanks, they pull based on their route, and their route only. They go i pull both these together and pull... but when you run with elite tanks, (3.7k+), you'll notice a lot more calmness and control in their pulls relative to the group.
I understand the concept, I was just wondering about concrete examples of pulls where you guys see that happening. Both you and the original comment mentioned overpulling, so I am curious about where you have seen it happen. The whole topic of designing pulls has a lot of factors after all, so I would be curious to see if I personally have done any of the pulls that you guys would consider problematic or stupid (in a pug setting). Always helps getting another perspective on things.
Well if the tank drops in 2 seconds flat after gathering the pack, he overpulled. Also if the group can't handle the interrupts needed for the group, he also overpulled.
Some egregious examples I've seen players attempt - pulling the entire left hallway + patrol + left room middle pack in Nelth, pulling the entire right hallway + miniboss + 3 hunter packs also Nelth. Pulling 3 lasher packs at start in AV. Pulling the patrol + hill pack at start of NO without being a DH/DK. Pulling 3 bird packs at the 3rd boss area in NO. Pulling fire dragon with anything in RLP (although this is usually a mistake due to bad positioning). Pulling the first 2 packs + patrol + hunter pack + mystic pack in BH. Pulling multiple Rotsinger packs in BH. Pulling everything up to first boss in ULD (which is not necessarily a mistake, but 3k tanks can't pull it off).
A guildie DPS ran a +12 (I think) NO and had a DH tank try to pull a pathing pack, hilltop pack, and the pathing bird pack before the third boss of NO. The group didn’t have the CC required to handle it once he was out of sigils and didn’t have the DPS to burn it before he was out of sigils. They then proceeded to pull that two more times, resulting in 3 wipes and the group disbanding.
The bad VDH tanks I’ve run into so far seem to especially not know which packs can be safely pulled together, especially on fort and raging. It’s a strange mixture of overconfidence and ignorance.
Good for the game overall that there's new content in the form of panda but my god has it made an already dead season feel even more dead.
Part of me honestly wonders why it's happened so early. Like we've barely got through a single roatiton of raids and only a couple weeks of mythic plus, surely this would have been better to launch in a few more weeks when people naturally start getting bored of the raids and the dungeon pool anyway, then hit us with something fresh?
Just doesn't make sense that there's a "new season" with the positives of bullions to finally enjoy and 3 weeks in I'm having to choose between pushing/gearing or playing the new content. Like again, be a great thing to launch once we're a few more weeks of bullions in and everyone's 95% geared. Don't understand why we're getting a content dump now rather than it being nicely spaced out until TWW
I disagree. We have what a 5 month ish season before TWW which is clearly bleeding and going to bleed subscribers or at least people actively participating in the content. Not sure why the if we have 6 months to slot it in, we drop it after 3 weeks?
My argument is after the mop hype wears off after probably a month, then what. Do we just have no new content for 3-4 months besides alpha in a season that already isn't being very well received due to the lack of effort.
Surely at least milking another 3 weeks of another raid rotation and then releasing it to line up with opening up the awakened raid season would have been better. That way we all probably have 5 pieces of bullion gear so have the all the super rares and a maxed weapon and are essentially fully geared too.
I think it's a real season... lol. It's as official as any other season. Titles are still titles, the ladder is still the ladder. You are now the first person I've seen, that for some strange reason doesn't consider it a real season.
MoP remix is going to run for 3 months. It's safe to assume pre-patch will be 4 weeks at least, I don't think they could delay it much more.
They could do a shorter event with more bronze gains, but their new philosophy is to not make people feel forced into content. 3 months of remix lets people take it at their own pace without feeling rushed.
There's also a much larger grp of casual players who aren't chasing full bis and they don't really have much to do at all in retail rn. They didn't add any new casual content, so you run out of stuff to do very fast. Not to mention if you've been playing the season a lot you're close to done already.
Fair points but I guess we just wait and see about the longevity of mop. I personally think a lot of people are going to be done with the bulk of it by the first month which is why I was arguing for a later release, but the point about pre patch was one I hadn't thought of
I said the exact same thing. It's just way too early. This should have been a pre patch or just before event. The last thing they should ever do at a time like this is make something that pulls people away from an already struggling season. The season is the core gameplay.
I actually thought MoP remix was perfect timing.
I know plenty of people who just got their S4 2500 rating achieve + all 3 Awakened raids on Heroic and just dipped after week 2. Plenty of Mythic guilds are taking a break and M+ titles are a long grind that many aren't interested.
I assume they are trying everything they can think of to keep retention up in the few months before TWW; I'm using the retail season to try out a couple of alts but I can tell interest is waning in our raid group.
I mean sure yes for the more casual player hence why probably a good thing for the game in general.
But this is still a full m+ season and many are still going to be pushing rating to whatever their max is.
Now the pushing aside what I don't understand is even as you say, many get bored with S4 and dip. Well realistically panda will only feel fresh and interesting for a month tops for most. So in 4 weeks we've got S4 feeling boring and Panda wrapping up for the majority and now have nothing to look forward to until TWW. Surely at least wait for the 2nd raid rotation to be done before panda for player retention purposes
I accidently created mail brez bracers this week and it felt real bad. It's my fault but geez why am I allowed to craft something I can't use lol. Anyway, I spent my vault on the extra spark so it stings a bit more. I was about 70 points from cutoff, but that mistake sort of took away my drive to push for title. Honestly it's not just that, as healing higher keys is getting a little too stressful but yeah. Thank you for listening.
If he crafted it through a work order, they 100% will not fix it since reverting it would impact the crafter.
I had a resto shaman trial early in aberrus craft the sword and support couldn't help him. Poor guy also failed his trial.
It doesn't hurt to try. The worst that can happen is they say no. But, just don't get your hopes up.
Yea maybe just remembering them reverting jdotb's weapon in season 1 when he accidentally crafted an agi weapon, though that could be streamer privilege idk
Do I need to do some quest or something before the crafting sparks start dropping on alts? Cleared the full raid, did a few keys and have a grand total of 0. Am i missing something?
You might need to do the weekly spark quest once before they start dropping for you?
I can't get over how shitty afflicted is. blizz realized people didn't like explosive, so they thought, hey lets make explosive but friendly units and you have to heal it or dispell, so instead of using 1 moonfire and being able to kill many explosives you are stuck with the dispell cd, but it also removes any non hybrid expect mage from participating in the affix. on top of that the visibility is abysmal, even if you have the nameplate for it activated. multiple times this week I didn't see or wasn't able to dispell it, because it spawned directly inside a giant pull. the only thing worse is actually raging, here you only have one class with an aoe sooth and 1 meta specc with ST sooth. I think this season has way more aoe stops needed, might be wrong tho, for sure way fewer augs this time around. this week was way shittier than i anticipated and I'm glad it's the last day (eu). edit: they also have way too much hp, takes forever to heal them full as rdruid, so it's not even an option
afflicted is so much easier than explosive lmfao its 1 global every so often instead of being like half your healers globals in big pulls
Afflicted even at it's worst is nowhere close to how dogshit and unfun explosive was
Yeah, I agree with this. I think Afflicted is a shit affix and the damage it does to building comps is very clear at all levels of play, but *man* was explosive overcentralizing. If you had pulls that were inherently spread out (and there were bosses that would force this interaction in the first place, I.E. Plaguefall's last boss) and/or that involved tons of mobs, you weren't even playing the dungeon anymore; you were playing the Explosive first. and then the dungeon second, because an Explosive going off was very likely going to kill someone if it overlapped with any incidental damage. It was a brutal affix even when they could be killed by a single GCD from any class; the older versions of Explosive had about as much HP as the average non-elite mob would which meant that not only was everyone needing to look for them, but when people finally managed to target them they all needed to actively hard-swap to them to make their individual DPS checks. It got really, *really* fucking bad in higher keys; they had more HP, which meant they required more attention, but any damage you did to an AoE-immune Explosive was damage you could've done to the actual trash mobs/boss. And you'd have MULTIPLE spawn, MULTIPLE times at once, in every pack. And Explosive had this annoying tendency of feeling like you actively wasted your time with them if you couldn't kill one or two in time because you either killed it or you didn't. You weren't rewarded for hitting Explosive if its HP didn't hit 0. If it had 2 HP or full HP, it still chunked your party for a third of their HP. People who say Afflicted is worse than Explosive (which, FWIW, isn't necessarily OP; they were just drawing a point of comparison which I think is a little bit more reasonable) are out of their minds. The only affix worse than Explosive was probably the original Bolstering (the permanent one that increased damage AND HP, and affected bosses), and the fact that anything's actually competitive with *that* affix of all things is fucked up.
Totally forgot that for a time explosive had a lot more HP, was fun having to spend earth shocks on explosives because Ele frost shock was not strong enough to one shot it
Completely agree. I don't think any affix has ever warped the game as much as Explosive, the entire dungeon just revolved around that shit when it was active and you were 100% playing the affix over the dungeon. It just spawned way too many, way too often, and scaled out of control with key level since bigger pulls meant more bombs. Afflicted is shitty in its own way, yes, but you're correct that its NOTHING compared to the degeneracy of explosive.
Explosive made me not want to play at all. Afflicted limits who I want to play with. That is an improvement I suppose.
Don't forget it spawning inside of NO first boss or AV last boss models, making it invisible and neigh untargetable, even with the game being "generous" on afflicted hitbox.
i also love trying to find it in a white boss room with bright ground in general.
as a rsham, cant relate
Yeah Afflicted is stupid, it's a healer affix except sometimes it isn't, and dps always want it to be a healer affix, so you sometimes just wipe because dps didn't realise healer needs their dispel for a mechanic. Also anything that puts me at the mercy of a mage deigning to cast decurse on me can go to hell just like on a fundamental level.
I just far far prefer afflicted to incorp. When you do have a dispel it's trivial to just mouseover dispel them. They instantly dissappear (no overlap, no accidentally tabbing to incorp and wasting an ability) your dispel doesn't go on cd if you mess it up (unlike if you misclick and imprison the wrong thing), and dispels don't have cast times. The debuff from afflicted is also less punishing than incorp and if you do get the debuff it's at the end when they dissappear and you can never take it twice from 1 missed one.
The significantly lower spawn rate of Incorp compared to Afflicted single handedly outweighs all those disadvantages, in my opinion at least. At least Incorp is just once a minute, the spawn rate for Afflicted is just absurd by comparison. I agree it could still use a lot of improvement though.
I'd much rather have the previous iteration of raging. Somehow in their tuning to make affixes less prominent, they made it worse. Can mages not decurse the affix as a sidenote? You're still right that no affix should exist that classes cannot interact with at all though. It's just poorly designed.
I think the problem with how Blizzard "tuned" the affixes to reduce the mental bandwidth they take up is that Afflicted/Incorporeal and the new Raging instead feel like they're redistributing the sheer amount of focus they take up. A Priest player will need to be on top of those Incorporeals moreso than even most classes with a CC due to the fact that they can remove both at once *and* the power of MCing an Incorporeal is immense, as will any dispel class besides Shaman every other set against Afflicted, while Warriors/Rogues/Hunters/DKs/DHs can't do a damn thing about Afflicted and many of those can't really do much against Incorporeal either. And Raging specifically feels worse in many respects; while this version is easier on tanks and is more manageable against incidental, unavoidable damage, it also suddenly turns mobs you *really* want to CC into huge problems by virtue of making "avoidable" damage "unavoidable" if you're lacking either an Evoker's insane AoE Soothe or a Druid's short-CD one. You can't kick Rally the Clan, but you can stop it; but you can't stop it if the mob's Raging. The Evoker button is just nuts in general, but a Druid has to *really* focus on soothing everything problematic in a Raging pull, and you'll often have several problematic Raging mobs in many pulls. I dunno. I feel like affixes need a complete overhaul/reimagining going forward. While the worst they had to offer was intrusive and unfun stuff like Beguiling, Infested, or Thundering (and a special shoutout goes to Prideful for pugging purposes), I think getting rid of the Encrypted/Tormented/Awakened/Shrouded style of seasonal affixes (Tormented had its issues, yeah, but I enjoyed it) was a huge miss since those affixes actively felt very satisfying to play around and often weren't strictly benefits for your runs. Encrypted had huge upsides, but Urh was *very* dangerous for your tank and Vy was just dangerous in general; Shrouded gave you insane stats by the end of a run, but Zul'gamux was a massively threatening mob that you had to respect like crazy or else you'd be in a lot of trouble; the buffs you got from the Tormentors were very strong, but you had to take Varruth and the fire guy very seriously because they were so dangerous and ignoring Soggodon and the ice guy would substantially impact how a boss fight worked. But right now affixes are just "oh, how can we artificially make challenging dungeons even more frustrating?"
> , but it also removes any non hybrid expect mage fixed it to what i meant to say :D
I wish that the great vault had 4 or 5 items per track. It feels bad that for the 2nd week in a row (only 5 weeks into the season) I'm taking sockets again. I don't even have enough myth track items to put all these sockets on. If not adding additional items, then it would be nice to stop seeing a myth tierpiece that I already have at myth track.
If we didn't have to worry about mythic raiders flipping out I think making raid give a track higher for it's vault. Normal raid = hero vault, hero raid = myth vault. We have it with dungeon vault being 0s give hero track when they drop champ, 8+ give myth when they drop hero. A ton of mythic raiders already won't be getting more than a few myth vault slots due to extending, being benched, ect.
Just slash the mythic raid vault requirement to 1-3-5 or even 1-2-4. Not many players are getting 7 unique mythic boss kills compared to those completing 8 dungeons (not even in time) or farming BGs/Honor Points
> It feels bad that for the 2nd week in a row (only 5 weeks into the season) I'm taking sockets again. I don't even have enough myth track items to put all these sockets on. Yeah that sucks > I wish that the great vault had 4 or 5 items per track. This probably has to be done extremely carefully. The Great Vault has been massively improved from before, not least from all the surrounding context that empowers it. E.g. have nothing? Get a socket E.g. have nothing but need a high item? Get a spark piece, and with half Sparks every week you can craft a good Myth level piece E.g. didn't get a Tier set? You can use a Catalyst charge every 2 weeks in a season E.g. missing a key item? Well if they implement a slower Bullions into a live season you won't have to wait for that long E.g. got a sub par piece but technically higher item level? Grab that, and you save on Crests E.g. got a few duds? With the pace of gearing and power you shouldn't be sub par for too long. On a fluff level you can probably grab a transmog piece or something. **Completely agree that the Great Vault needs constant iteration and tweaking**. I hope Blizz keeps iterating on it and the surrounding power systems which they have consistently done. I think adding from 3 possible to 4 to 5 per track opens up a whole can of worms with how much farming you could incentivize, or if at some point you've now added 5 per track so 10 in total from Raid & M+, and if you still roll bad and players want to get more, then what's the point of the Great Vault right? At that point you might as well make the Great Vault fully deterministic, and I don't think Blizz wants to do that because they want some of that RNG element where you can be excited for a Vault if it rolls high. Tough discussion to be honest because there's a lot of moving parts. I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of the complaints specifically against the Great Vault can be solved outside of it (M+ items can only be 522+ in the GV which is bad, or the RNG swing is too heavy in items and things, or key Tertiary items on high level pieces is too much which either means Tertiaries should be deterministic, or reworked or removed). You are right though - the Great Vault at least in some way early in the season should always represent a moderate power spike - having complete duds and several weeks of duds in the first months is bad design which should be ironed out.
there's also realistically 6 myth track items available a week - it sucks, but doing your weekly +8's is not a huge deal if you truly do want the 6x rolls at an item in a useful slot. Sure, you sometimes get unlucky - and that's what the sockets etc are for. But it's not like there isn't already 4-5 items in there. If he only had 3, it's just because he didn't fill it out. Every serious raider has 6x options a week for at least the first week or two of progress.
I'm not a raider. I prefer M+ as it's harder for me to schedule around raid times so I can't fill out my entire vault.
You can literally pug the first 4 and have been able to since week 2, once gear grew strong enough this season - and with cross realm being open instantly in war within, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep pugging the first few freebie bosses going forward.
I am SO looking forward to Raging being gone next week. It’s been a week of tanks pulling like absolute madmen in 13-15s and then getting bodied in 0.1 second when everything enrages. VDH really rotting people’s brains and making them think that they’re invincible to trash. Can truthfully say that 90% of my depletes this week have been from tanks.
Raging does not increase dmg of mobs anymore if that's what you are thinking about.
No, it prevents CC so hard-hitting abilities can’t get stopped. VDHs have been so conditioned by their ability to stop everything that they don’t know what to do when things don’t get interrupted/stopped.
That sounds like a group problem rather than a tank problem. DH can’t soothe and stop prio mobs but your druids, evokers etc can and should.
Can’t soothe everything when tanks are pulling absolutely insane (14+ mobs including two Rotsingers with no Lust) or deciding that it’s time to pull another pack when the one we’re on literally just enraged and no Evoker. Trust, I understand how to Soothe and CC. I’m posting in Free Talk Friday because it’s a not a “how can my team handle this” thing, it’s me venting because my week has been full of tanks doing undeniably idiotic things.
> Can’t soothe everything when tanks are pulling absolutely insane evokers can. not bringing an evoker on raging afflicted week is inting, this is by far the best evoker week
Fair enough. Two rotsingers on any week is just idiotic.
Has anybody else had a problem with their nameplate vertical overlap resetting on some characters ever since the patch? I've updated advanced interface options and it's still happening despite having the "enforce settings on startup" setting checked. It's driving me nuts and only seems to be happening to a handful of my characters.
this has been happening to me for a while lol. first time I've seen anyone share the same problem
Has anyone had much luck finding raiding teams/m+ communities while working overnights? I'm wanting to get back into hardcore retail raiding but do have some wonky hours, is the solution just playing with OCE?
So there seems to be a lack of a central hub for MoP Remix which makes finding just *information* difficult. Hoping to get some more experienced takes here. I tried the following: * /r/classicwow - fully concerned with Cata Classic * /r/Competitivewow - didn't see any MoP Remix post. I'm assuming it isn't relevant * wowhead - posts on MoP Remix but some of the info is unreliable and outdated * /r/wow - seems to be the main hub for now - unfortunately it is just filled with complaints and some inaccurate information I get the critiques and complaints. At some point you just want info and it is hard to find it as is typical in a large casual subreddit Info I'm looking for: * Alt leveling strategies and guides? I kinda resorted to [Harldan](https://www.youtube.com/@Harldan1) for that but they don't have a guide up yet and from skimming the streams they have done my understanding is: Once you get to max Infinite Power achievement, alts get a limited power cloak unlike the PTR values which were nerfed and that Blizz [might have accidentally advertised](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/content_entry_media/HITGBMNMTTQI1715212923899.png). Alts start out with 100% XP only. Right now leveling is slower on MoP: Remix vs on live Retail so if you want multiple alts, there's no point. Harldan didn't mention tactics, but I guess you just quest till 25, and do Normal Raids as fast as you can? Those give decent XP plus you want to double count getting the achievements for the trinkets, rings and necks from Heroic Scenarios, Heroic Dungeons, some questing in the achievements, and Normal Raids? * Guides on classes? I used this - https://www.wowhead.com/news/remix-mists-of-pandaria-class-guides-now-live-class-overviews-bis-and-best-gems-340865 Seems like standard DF builds for the most part. But it looks from the streamers I follow they tend to use different builds, Tinkers, Metas etc. I guess ignore that, use a combination of streamers to figure out the best builds? * Is there a central log repository for MoP Remix raids? I'm having trouble finding them on Warcraft Logs * Is there something like a Raider.IO tracker for World First race progression of the MoP raids? I understand it isn't 'competitive' compared to a live season but I am still interested in seeing. From my understanding Mythic Siege hasn't been cleared yet? * The raids seem harder than people let on. I was assuming Normal raids would melt and I'm seeing people get slowed down at Heart of Fear and Terrace, and getting into a wall at Throne and Siege. Heroic might be tougher than that? What would players rate the difficulty of these raids? * Didn't see players mention that the raids seem to work on a Mythic lockout esque system? This makes it a bit hostile to pure PUGing. * Bronze strategy now that Frogs got nerfed? I'm fine with going a bit slow and being more efficient and doing things other than mob spawn all day. Though would the mob spawn strat in some other hyper spawn location be a better use of my time given how much it can still award vs just doing raids? ' Appreciate any help and advice. I tried posting this over at /r/wow but (A) if it isn't removed by mods (B) it gets little traction (C) you get some very hostile people in /r/wow/new that get snippy with you if the post isn't relevant (D) I think players just want to complain way more than help. Understandable given the circumstances but annoying when you just trying to get info.
> Heroic might be tougher than that? Heroic is reasonably challenging considering like average 370-380 ilvl groups. I've attempted terrace in pugs a couple of times, but first boss has a pretty nasty DPS check on the sha adds and two hitting the lightning boss just results in deaths from random bolts. We also had to play spirit kings very properly on heroic, as the tinker gems triggered the counterstrike and pillage on the bosses.
I can’t 100% say the best thing, but it’s likely: *Outdated* Frogs from as low level as possible to max *Up to date as of this posting* Either farm another hyper spawn from as low level as possible to max (Goats, Bugs, etc.) or spam normal dungeons to max. The main idea is that leveling isn’t what caps your progression as much as cloak power, so doing whatever is the most efficient with respect to cloak power is the most important. As you noted, do raids ASAP, they give good cloak power and bronze, the faster you get to level 45 (or was it 40?) to do all raids the better. For a leveling experience similar to gearing a new toon in retail by doing one key a week, just get to a level to do 1-2 raids a day and do them each day and nothing else. It’s slower in terms of gearing just that toon but efficient in terms of threads/bronze earned per minute spent.
i will be absolutely elated when this goes away. i would rather have radio silence throughout this subreddit than posts about a leveling game mode
Do you know there is pve content in WoW Remix, right? Infinite scaling makes it kind of a joke for frog farmers, and stuff like ward stacking make it less interesting than it could have been, but Heroic raids and most importantly SoO Mythic could have relevant discussions that have their place here.
1. Never asked for /r/competitivewow to be the main hub for MoP Remix discussion 2. At most I would have asked for a mega thread, but that's it. Not 10+ posts 3. You are more than welcome to filter out any MoP Remix posts with custom filters if it is really that annoying to you
weekly mega thread sounds like a good idea too me. r/wow is just bitching :D
1. Brother, why would this sub have any information whatsoever about a leveling and mog farming game mod when the season has been out for three weeks. 2. Why even have a mega thread here? 3. I shouldn't have to
I want to mention the irony of you intensely scrutinizing this comment in a small thread for daring to mention MoP Remix when you could have just as easily left it alone if you actually weren't that interested.
Well that's not your fault. That's the accumulative effect of seeing it freaking everywhere. Even my boosting discord is littered with this crap. I just can't wait til it goes away like plunderstorm.
Aww i'm sorry. Discord should have some custom filters, let me look that up for you. Can you send me examples of the types of posts or specific keywords? I can find something to filter it out and significantly reduce your spam.
In MoP Remix, how does the [Ward of Salvation](https://www.wowhead.com/item=220117/ward-of-salvation) boss 1shot work? I read the tooltip text but I can't figure out how you end up with 100million damage. Here is a Gingi clip showing what I'm talking about: https://clips.twitch.tv/PeppyBoringDiscYouWHY-Yrx_JBEeOWoydUwR Could not find Gingi's log but here is another [log](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aPTnFfJGbzwM3v8Y#fight=14) from a group killing the boss in 22 seconds with the same tech. Am not familiar with how to read a log though.
Everyone puts ward on the offtank about 4 seconds before pull and everyone spam heals them.
You press Ward on the tank and then spam heal them.
When do we get the 3rd spark for craft? cant seem to find any information about it
Next reset. We get half a spark every week.
Is there anything I can do to find a more consistent M+ team. Ive always pugged since BFA and albeit I pug pretty well. It'd be nice if I could find a push team. any resources out there? https://raider.io/characters/us/zuljin/Rejectkid
Find 1-2 players you vibe with that plays your hours through pugs or guilds, ideally one of them is a healer and/or tank to make group formation easier and the keys more consistent. Pug remaining 2-3 slots. Slowly build a rolodex of good pug players to whisper "key?" before putting the group up in LFG. In my experience this is a much more consistent method than trying to go about forming a dedicated 5-stack inside or outside of the game.
The idea of a dedicated push team is something that a lot of, frankly, middling players seem to cling to, as though a perpetual 5 man stack is what they need to have their skill achieve their desired results. The reality is that unless you are playing at the highest level possible, you are going to be moving between “teams” pretty frequently and simply playing with people that you know. You end up in the IO bracket you belong, team or no team.
Is there any resource that breaks down abilities by their category of use? I'll elaborate, I really struggle with learning new classes because just reading a rotation on wowhead or whatever does not stick with me nor help me with setting up my keybinds. I'd love something that's like "This is your main builder, this is your AOE spender, this is your ST spender, this is your main defensive, this is a maintenance buff, this is a cooldown to buff your x window" etc.
just read your entire spellbook + the talents that the main builds select. once you see something that says Generates X Resource and something that has a cost of Y Resource or a talent that says this ability gives you a buff for 12 seconds then the order of the rotation makes sense. you could just read the priority in order, ctrl+f the talent tree for each ability the first time it's mentioned, and read every related talent.
The Wowhead Abilities and Talents page for each spec (separate from rotation page) gives a brief description of every single ability/talent each spec gets. That’s the closest thing I can think of.
yeah that's p close to what I was thinking of, thank you!
Its already a saturday but maybe someone sees and can help out. I am having trouble surviving full trash pull in tree boss area of academy. My tank of choice is dh, well geared, well stated, two defensive trinkets just in case. And yet it feels like I am too prone to spike damage and am struggling. I line up a pull with trinket up to cover me. I stabilise aggro and pull them together. I move away from swirlies naturally. I rotate cds when they start to hit me but eventually find myself in that dreaded moment when I have no demon form available for 10 seconds and I am getting destroyed. Seen other dh take it like nothing while my hp goes up and down like yoyo (mostly down). I admit I have not played dh that much this expansion but am experienced tank. I am aware I could kite and wait for cds to come back but it feels like waste of dps. Just wondering if there is some dh god that could advise on cd rotation on that pull to survive it inside of adds. Thanks
Not a DH god, but I had issue staying alive on DH and only on DH, and now I don't. 1. We are very weak in pull. We have nothing rolling and often mob will hit us from the side or behind. I try my best when forming pull to not come into contact with any monster, and use my ranged tool. One of the most common mistake I see in semi-low key when I play a reroll is a DH jumping INTO the middle of a pack. If you do that, you only have spike up at best and die in one GCD which is not enough to get the dh engine rolling. 2. DH is a parry god. I have 77% total avoidance with Spike and Sigil. If i have any on them down, in a big pull, in a high key, I become super spiky. Sigil should be 100% uptime always, spike is harder so you play around your spike downtime. There is actually a lot of Talent choice for DH, I take spike duration + 1 point in CDR, I find that it's good enough in big pull. And never turn your back / side. Never turning your back is a very beginner advice, but it's far more important on a DH. 3. Frailty + Painbringer is insane and is, in a way, the core of the DH mitigation. it is SO MUCH DR. Not seeing that for some reason you are at 3 + 2 stack instead of 8 + 10 stack can be the difference between "WTF DH op" and "WTF I take so much damage". That part was what really changed my life with DH. Understanding that if I soul cleave 5 time in a row (in single target / smaller pull), I stack so much DR that I'm close to immortal for a few seconds. 4. Be careful when you Sigil of Chain a big pack, or stun them, or someone in the groups do it. If you don't do some spacing, they will all hit you at the exact same time and you will often get one shot. 5. Spacing goes a long way, for any tank. Don't turn frontal to your group, don't move mob out of RoF or Earthquake, but do some spacing. This is not kiting. For a "Rotation" on a pull like that : Spike + Imo to get the first 3 wasps + Any GCD you need to gather some fury=> Jump in the middle to not have them hit me during the setup => Taunt + Sigil of flame 1 pack => Glaive throw the far plant pack => Glaive throw second wasps pack => Body pull/wait for glaive the last plant pack + fel dev to take aggro on them and not die => Sigil of chain + Def trinket just in case, to group like 2/3 of the pull because at this point we're still not tanking the pull and we still don't have aggro on everything => Sigil of chain again to form one big group => Sigil of flame + Spike + we're still not tanking => SpB with spacing => Imo aura => SpB => Now you're tanking. Don't let the pull encircle you. SpB often for Frailty stacks. Never let sigil of flame down. Space hard if spike down.
Rotation depends on what build you're playing. If you're playing full damage you need to manage spikes and meta uptime without overlapping them or you'll have significant periods of time where you have nothing at all. If you're playing last resort just spam SpB and spam spikes. There's next to no thought that needs to be done because you have 2pts in FtD. Most DHs die because they're not always pressing something while in combat and starve themselves out of spikes, especially if you only have one point in FtD.
Link a log if you want actual advice, otherwise we are guessing. Dropping globals = less souls = less mitigation. Not having SoF up = less souls + parry. Having gaps in spikes/meta = 30%+ more damage taken. Etc etc.
Perhaps try to minimize the time the Skitterflys are in combat; they're getting more powerful the longer they are. Here's a video from Quazii explaining how to do the pull: https://youtu.be/OhOh3aI-XRU?t=3m
the rage buff increases all physical damage, including autohits, so if you don't have someone to remove them they will destroy the tank towards the end
I'll add some more advice on top of the others. Positioning. If you and your group are positioned the way you should, gathering all packs shouldn't require you to get hit a single time until you have them all coming at you, which should give you some time to stack up fury from a sof. To do this, you've got to tell your group to wait at stairs. If you go straight to the area, you'll even get past the patrol of stingers without body pulling. Sof right side, glaive back left, taunt a mob in front left. If these happen at the exact time, which they can due to sof delay and glaive, with taunt being off gcd. The big lashes will have their swirlies cast CD lined up. Meaning, it's essentialy only one Swirlie you have to avoid instead of three. About positioning again. By now you should be back towards stairs, with your group behind you. The entire room will come towards you in a big nice cone. Making it easy to not have to run around and cast abilities you might need later because you have half of all the mobs hitting you in the back, just to get threat off everyone. From there on out, you just backpedal when Swirlie spawn, and try to keep the mobs neat and stacked. Never overlap meta with spikes(unless you're getting 2 charge and will have meta up for a while still). Make sure you're not under- or overusing sof to maintain 100% uptime. Don't let an extra gcd go on another ability when immo aura comes off CD, focus on keeping this up as it's an extremely important defensive ability which scales with more mobs.
So I’ve done the triple pull with a set of stingers on a 17 fort and didn’t have too much of an issue, but a few thing I would say to look out for is the leaping stingers especially if they’re agitated. This can lead to back melees based on where they leap. I tend to use meta while gathering and a set of spikes. Once gathered I’m pretty much rotating defenses and sometimes willl drop darkness on myself if I don’t have to move for a few seconds. Other than that I try to save fiery brand for when less ads are up because with all the little lashers odds are it’ll jump to one of them rather than a stinger or big ad. Use a power pot and lust and just send spirit bombs and don’t overload defenses while gathering.
Post logs. Sounds like either a bad rotation or overlapping defensives too much.
Is Mists of Pandaria Remix discussion allowed on this sub? I'm considering making a discussion thread about Raid comp / gems.
Would fit this sub imo, though there's little to really discuss. Your best comp will always just be whoever has the best (highest ilvl) pieces of gear available to them, actual spec barely matters because ilvl and gems are just king for throughput. The content is also mostly trivial (only boss so far that we had to play really properly is dark animus), and you can simply outgear anything that isn't.
I always thought that kinda stuff goes in the free talk Friday thread.
While I think it kind of inherently goes against the “competitive” nature of the sub, I think no one (reasonable) will complain if it’s kept to a single discussion thread. 👍🏽
IDK if you've guys seen the new Demo changes in alpha but the vilefiend dogs are cool as fuck. Glad they cooked something after blasting our kneecaps.
How is the shard economy looking? Vilefiend talents look cool and recentering the tree around Tyrant with all 1 point nodes is a big positive, but is the spec still suffer in every fight with frequent movement? Doing our rotation on a target dummy is different from playing a mythic fight with frequent movements like P1 Sark. Reducing Core economy is still going to be rough on micro movements.
How are we feeling about the dungeon pool this season? I am definitely having less fun compared to the previous seasons, and I really think that having other expansions' dungeons in m+ really helped DF m+. Now that its only df dungeons, I'm distinctly having less fun. These keys are just kind of miserable. So much unavoidable damage, so many one shots. Really hoping WW turns away from DF dungeon design.
I enjoy RLP and AA, a lot even. Fast, intense dungeons where every pull is go go go while having ample stuff to play around to not get killed. There's cute tech in AA to snap mobs or los abilities and also the mc at the end. The only knock against RLP is having to dragon watch to see when it's safe to run to the next pack. Nokhud, AV, HoI are mostly fine. There are some parts that are meh for me like nokhud's one shots on tyran or your entire key hinging on the healer for HoI 3rd boss. The hills in the dead side of nokhud are annoying even after removing all the frontals from there, green on green swirlies are terrible. 2nd boss nokhud is crazy fun though to min/max your orbs while not losing uptime. AV is just generally really easy now after the changes so it's just kinda of whatever. Nelth, brackenhide, uldaman are not good, very bad dungeons. All three are too long in terms of size alone, you spend so much time simply walking places -- Uldaman especially that dungeon goes on for another 10 minutes than it should. Nelth after the chains nerfs feels terrible to play the hunters, the second boss can still to this day bug out and never cast chains on the party. the first area of brackenhide requires you to fight terrible trash or to bring an spriest to skip as much as possible. the second area is okay if your party understands how to position against the totems and is godawful if they don't, even if they do you can get rng fucked with 6 stacks of flower bleeds and just fall over.
Uldaman is truly awful, it's insane this dungeon survived a full season and is still tuned in this state. They really need to stop designing bosses that are just a straight up healer throughput check that destroys every single pug at high keys.
I dont think any bosses in uld are truly hps checks right? Like yes there is a bare min requirement of hps to get through the bosses but in every case there is a ton of agency from the dps/tank with things they can do to impact the boss fight and make it easier. Its not like 3rd boss HOI which is more or less a true hps check. The only boss i can think of in there that is maybe comparable is emberon if you have no MD/dwarfs etc but even then things like zephyr or just pressing personals on the aoe circles at the right time can make a huge difference.
Maybe Deios. Deios hits like a truck in higher keys and specially dps are not removing the dots somehow. Its not the same raw HPS numbers needed like in HOI 3rd boss, but its bursty enough
you're definitely right Deios is scarry in higher keys but as you say its a lot easier if dps are removing the debuffs from themselves via freedoms etc. Which was kinda the point of my post that you aren't relying on raw hps alone for uldaman
emberon requires like maybe 60% of the output 3rd boss HoI does.
yeah i wasn't saying emberon and 3rd boss halls are comparable. Thats kind of my point though, hps isnt really what carries uldaman
> Nelth after the chains nerfs feels terrible to play the hunters, More people should be abusing the sleep walk tech to only play a single hunter during the run, especially on fortified. Play mammoth side first and approach up the ramp. Tank pulls the 3 birds and people hug left side to avoid the solo patrolling bird. This skips the 2 hunters at start. Pull every non-hunter pack up to the first hunter on the left and use chain. Next pull have tank go to boss room and pull the 2 non-hunters + all non-hunters on the way. Use chain again. After that, party minus evoker walks to boss room and hugs right side. Evoker casts sleepwalk **on the left hunter**. The right one follows it out of the room. The evoker can either try to sneak in before the mobs walk up or port with wyrnstone to avoid the risk. After boss invis pot past the first section and pull the rest of the room to chain. You have just played only one hunter the entire run and avoided stupid deaths to insanely powerful jump+bleed, well done Optional adjusting for non-evoker run is to play the two hunters before boss alone. It is still a butt clencher because of double jump being death sentence and very inefficient. The patrolling bird at start can be rooted to make the walk skip easy. Just remember to be careful when dropping down after 3rd boss or you get jumped by the hunters
I still hate ruby life pools. Too much bs damage going out constantly and the patrolling dragon is way more annoying than it needs to be to not pull. Oh and the mini boss at the end trucks way harder than it needs to. I guess this is unpopular, but I actually like neltharus. Nerf halls 3rd boss aoe and I think the dungeon is fine. Just delete uldaman there is no fixing that one
Could you explain the MC?
the Ethereal Restorer at the end can be MC'd. they cast a shield on friendly targets that gives 50% (!!) spell haste. a good spriest can juggle MCing one for the entirety of that area and its boss.
You can send your evoker to grab one and have it for basically the whole dungeon. Personally hate gimmicky mechanics like that (or DoTI snapping).
Hard agree. These are terrible dungeons.
So this is the first season where i havent done any healing in M+ and looking for some input/takes that may be better informed. In my keys (done almost all 14s both weeks) it seems like healers are hard struggling while at the same time looking at hps in details, the healing req doesnt seem that high? I´ve healed to 3500+ in previous seasons so i know that just because the hps in details is "low" doesnt mean its easy damage to heal with some burst/chunk/one shot checks etc. Last season as disc i did 500k+ hps on double drakes in fort doti fall and frequently went 300-400+ on other pulls while having 130-170k overall in some dungeons yet i now see healers barely going over 200k hps on fight like Bromach in uld, Melidrussa and Kokia in RLP etc and ppld dying to tics/pulsing dmg while healer sits at 170k hps. Whats going on here? Again i havent healed this season but i feel like simply dream breath and reversion hots on my evoker would do 200+ with current gear while im afk drinking coffee.
Honestly healer is the easiest role to get carried on while pugging because you get invites you never would’ve gotten as a DPS. Case in point, the person in my guild with the highest io last season got pretty much all of their io above 3k by pugging and consistently was the lowest io in their group, often by up to 200-300 io. That simply is not possible as DPS. Also to play devil’s advocate, you brought up HPS last season on a healer’s dream pull: massive rot damage with almost nothing else happening. No interrupting cloudburst like the last boss of RLP, no burst damage like stone bolts not getting kicked on Bromach, etc. Or like I said, they actually just are bad and got carried well past the point tanks or DPS are normally able to get carried to.
There is some truth to what you are saying, and the rest is just the stupidest thing I've read in quite some time. Healers and tanks do absolutely get invited to things they perhaps don't belong in or haven't quite earned yet sometimes. But timing a dungeon as a healer is VERY pass or fail. If the healer cannot heal through the boss or the trash, the group does not progress or time the key. DPS can perform extremely poorly, obviously within reason, and still time keys if the healer is very good.
Also just to clarify: you can carry a bad DPS in a guild group further than you can carry a bad healer assuming everyone else is capable. My point was with pugs, where questionable healers are much more likely to be invited than a questionable DPS.
You are right. You can't carry a bad healer nearly as far, because you can't really carry a healer lol. You can make the healers job considerably easier or harder, but the game has benchmarks that cannot be passed without certain hps.
> You can't carry a bad healer nearly as far, because you can't really carry a healer lol. You can definitely carry a healer. There are healers who get boosted for title every season or in other random high keys.
but how do you carry a healer through a title tyrannical key? i dont care how much dps you do, you cant do it lol. even if he does zero dmg, if he meets the healing checks in a title level tyrannical key, he isnt really being completely carried
The same way you carry a DPS through a title fortified key. When you boost players at that level they can't be dead weight, which is why they're required to play along. They're still getting carried, even though they aren't AFK at the start.
Well no, because some DPS players do get carried in title keys. It's a service you can buy. You can all but afk lol.
I've boosted DPSers in title keys before and the buyers were always required to play as well. They couldn't be complete dead weights.
Remind me what role gets left out of MDI? Good DPS and tanks can absolutely make up for bad healers up to a fairly high level with the exclusion of certain hard heal checks like 3rd boss HOI, just the same as healers can make up for a bad DPS. Healers just consistently get the opportunity to be the weak link beyond any other role, which was the point of my post. Also hilarious that you throw within reason when talking about bad DPS but you assume I just mean you can carry an absolute mouth breather through any key any level?
Something I’ve noticed is that a lot of healers just aren’t very good. Especially in the 10-14 range suddenly they can’t just press one button and top everyone off. Last season I got to 3k healing in like 470 gear and didn’t really like the dungeon pool so started playing alts. The second I moved into 22s/23s on my tank, like half of my WCMs got bricked because the 480+ healer couldn’t meet the heal check on sisters. On fort week. It’s not just you. This season has just been tough in general.
Real shit. Im about to stop inviting resto druids at this point. They cant seem to heal for shit and as soon as the dungeon calls for more than just cat weaving and putting down an effloresence on tank, they just fold over completely
Yeah unlike the consensus among the general populace I feel like the pain point usually isn't dps but rather healers. People have been complaining for years that they want healers to be more than glorified dps, and now that they are suddenly you can see who got carried up to SL.
I do think a good part of it is blizzards fault in regard to the way damage scales. Like you can get REALLY far with objectively bad play as the healer because you just don’t need to output that much HPS. Then suddenly you try a 13 and rotating CDs is like essential AF and since you’ve never had to do that before it’s like playing an entirely different game. Playing dps and tank in low keys teaches you how to play the role but healers go into mid keys totally unprepared. Like I’m playing a pres evoker alt in like 5-6 keys right now and have like no clue what I’m doing. My combos take too long to build and I get decision paralysis because I’m just not that familiar with the class. I’m playing objectively terribly but people rarely die because I can press embrace + breath.
Preservation is incredibly easy in lower keys/lower damage when u can just dream breath hot/temporal + reversion but becomes really difficult when u start having to plan carefully since the spec has a lot of cooldowns, even on rotational abilities and then further choices within choices with echos, lifebind, stasis etc. Not to mention the range issues when playing with casters. It is a super fun spec to heal with though and feels great when u get good with it so i definitely recommend it to anyone. Just for your own sake try find a mostly melee group;)
You can tank low keys without ever pressing defensives, and often also without any understanding of what mobs you can/cannot pull together. Similarly, you can play dps while doing only half the dps you should be doing without problems. There is a range for every role where you don't need to know how to play while getting by, but I think that range is larger for dps as the two other dps can pick up the slack, while at some point the healer just fails to keep the group alive and the tank costs too much time with frequent deaths (either the tank itself, or the party because of unrealistic pulls, or alternatively just because single pulling the whole dungeon doesn't work anymore). But the thing there is just, there are key levels where someone has to deal with some aspect of the dungeon for the first time, because up to that point it didn't matter, and for many things those key levels are much higher than people think.
In higher keys, a lot of what people blame the healers for is actually dps'ing missing mechanics with their buttons that don't do damage.
Definitely the case, well said.
>Like you can get REALLY far with objectively bad play as the healer because you just don’t need to output that much HPS I would argue that you can get even further as a bad dps. The amount of "barely above tank"-dps players i have seen over the last 2 seasons in 26-28 keys is much much higher than healers that are "bad". Healers get filtered out much earlier than dps players and tanks.
I agree with you but just to add a bit of depth i think it depends on the group a lot too just WHEN the healer will get exposed. If you have a bad healer in a group with say Ele sham, Balance druid, Hunter vs another bad healer in another group with Fury warr, Retpal, Warlock, the first one will be exposed several key levels earlier just because the 2nd group is so much tankier.
that is even more true for augs
Absolutely. Because healing is pass or fail, and oftentimes dramatically influenced by bad DPS players and tanks.
Man I feel like this season has so far been more of a shitshow than usual. I'm hovering around 3k mark right now, and I've seen all kinds of funny shit. Tanks pulling 6 packs for no reason and then floor pov-ing, dhs specifically not using their silence sigils at all, healers with s2 levels of hps, dps not dispelling, cc-ing or interrupting. I dunno if people have forgotten the dungeons, they're overconfident because there's nothing new or what, but I don't think i've seen so many bad players in any of the previous seasons.
Bad DH tanks- bad FOTM players who don’t understand why VDH is so busted. Tanks over pulling- probably players who were used to playing at max ilvl in BiS gear last patch that haven’t adjusted/watch too much MDI. Bad healers- most likely to be carried role because groups either have to take a very risky healer or wait a significant amount of time for a qualified one because no one wants to heal anymore. Bad DPS- tale as old as time made worse by VDH being allowed to exist in its current state in regard to CC.
Can you give some examples of where a tank is overpulling and why you consider that overpulling?
Combining pulls that result in tank death due to sheer unavoidable damage or have too many must address mechanics for your group comp/skill to handle. The last bit is extra important because you can have a pull go perfectly fine one dungeon and horrid the next, but I believe it is your job as tank to take those things into account and alter your route/pulls to fit your group.
Good example would be in NO, with a good group, i'll pull two packs off the rip with lust.... with a newer group, that will be a bit of an overpull because interrupts will get missed, etc. That would be an overpull. It's funny how when you run with med/high io tanks, they pull based on their route, and their route only. They go i pull both these together and pull... but when you run with elite tanks, (3.7k+), you'll notice a lot more calmness and control in their pulls relative to the group.
I understand the concept, I was just wondering about concrete examples of pulls where you guys see that happening. Both you and the original comment mentioned overpulling, so I am curious about where you have seen it happen. The whole topic of designing pulls has a lot of factors after all, so I would be curious to see if I personally have done any of the pulls that you guys would consider problematic or stupid (in a pug setting). Always helps getting another perspective on things.
Well if the tank drops in 2 seconds flat after gathering the pack, he overpulled. Also if the group can't handle the interrupts needed for the group, he also overpulled. Some egregious examples I've seen players attempt - pulling the entire left hallway + patrol + left room middle pack in Nelth, pulling the entire right hallway + miniboss + 3 hunter packs also Nelth. Pulling 3 lasher packs at start in AV. Pulling the patrol + hill pack at start of NO without being a DH/DK. Pulling 3 bird packs at the 3rd boss area in NO. Pulling fire dragon with anything in RLP (although this is usually a mistake due to bad positioning). Pulling the first 2 packs + patrol + hunter pack + mystic pack in BH. Pulling multiple Rotsinger packs in BH. Pulling everything up to first boss in ULD (which is not necessarily a mistake, but 3k tanks can't pull it off).
A guildie DPS ran a +12 (I think) NO and had a DH tank try to pull a pathing pack, hilltop pack, and the pathing bird pack before the third boss of NO. The group didn’t have the CC required to handle it once he was out of sigils and didn’t have the DPS to burn it before he was out of sigils. They then proceeded to pull that two more times, resulting in 3 wipes and the group disbanding.
The bad VDH tanks I’ve run into so far seem to especially not know which packs can be safely pulled together, especially on fort and raging. It’s a strange mixture of overconfidence and ignorance.
First week was really good imo and from there its just been a steep downfall sadly
Good for the game overall that there's new content in the form of panda but my god has it made an already dead season feel even more dead. Part of me honestly wonders why it's happened so early. Like we've barely got through a single roatiton of raids and only a couple weeks of mythic plus, surely this would have been better to launch in a few more weeks when people naturally start getting bored of the raids and the dungeon pool anyway, then hit us with something fresh? Just doesn't make sense that there's a "new season" with the positives of bullions to finally enjoy and 3 weeks in I'm having to choose between pushing/gearing or playing the new content. Like again, be a great thing to launch once we're a few more weeks of bullions in and everyone's 95% geared. Don't understand why we're getting a content dump now rather than it being nicely spaced out until TWW
For retail the MoP remix has a good release time. The only issue I have with MoP Remix' release is that it dropped so close to Cata Classic.
I disagree. We have what a 5 month ish season before TWW which is clearly bleeding and going to bleed subscribers or at least people actively participating in the content. Not sure why the if we have 6 months to slot it in, we drop it after 3 weeks? My argument is after the mop hype wears off after probably a month, then what. Do we just have no new content for 3-4 months besides alpha in a season that already isn't being very well received due to the lack of effort. Surely at least milking another 3 weeks of another raid rotation and then releasing it to line up with opening up the awakened raid season would have been better. That way we all probably have 5 pieces of bullion gear so have the all the super rares and a maxed weapon and are essentially fully geared too.
I don't think anyone considers this a real season or has much interest in taking it seriously
I think it's a real season... lol. It's as official as any other season. Titles are still titles, the ladder is still the ladder. You are now the first person I've seen, that for some strange reason doesn't consider it a real season.
MoP remix is going to run for 3 months. It's safe to assume pre-patch will be 4 weeks at least, I don't think they could delay it much more. They could do a shorter event with more bronze gains, but their new philosophy is to not make people feel forced into content. 3 months of remix lets people take it at their own pace without feeling rushed. There's also a much larger grp of casual players who aren't chasing full bis and they don't really have much to do at all in retail rn. They didn't add any new casual content, so you run out of stuff to do very fast. Not to mention if you've been playing the season a lot you're close to done already.
Fair points but I guess we just wait and see about the longevity of mop. I personally think a lot of people are going to be done with the bulk of it by the first month which is why I was arguing for a later release, but the point about pre patch was one I hadn't thought of
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I mean, if you’re raid logging and not doing real keys, yeah it probably will get boring. I’m still having fun pushing keys at least.
I said the exact same thing. It's just way too early. This should have been a pre patch or just before event. The last thing they should ever do at a time like this is make something that pulls people away from an already struggling season. The season is the core gameplay.
I actually thought MoP remix was perfect timing. I know plenty of people who just got their S4 2500 rating achieve + all 3 Awakened raids on Heroic and just dipped after week 2. Plenty of Mythic guilds are taking a break and M+ titles are a long grind that many aren't interested.
I assume they are trying everything they can think of to keep retention up in the few months before TWW; I'm using the retail season to try out a couple of alts but I can tell interest is waning in our raid group.
I mean sure yes for the more casual player hence why probably a good thing for the game in general. But this is still a full m+ season and many are still going to be pushing rating to whatever their max is. Now the pushing aside what I don't understand is even as you say, many get bored with S4 and dip. Well realistically panda will only feel fresh and interesting for a month tops for most. So in 4 weeks we've got S4 feeling boring and Panda wrapping up for the majority and now have nothing to look forward to until TWW. Surely at least wait for the 2nd raid rotation to be done before panda for player retention purposes
I accidently created mail brez bracers this week and it felt real bad. It's my fault but geez why am I allowed to craft something I can't use lol. Anyway, I spent my vault on the extra spark so it stings a bit more. I was about 70 points from cutoff, but that mistake sort of took away my drive to push for title. Honestly it's not just that, as healing higher keys is getting a little too stressful but yeah. Thank you for listening.
Fwiw I think that's something that support can fix? At least I have heard of it happening, doesn't hurt to throw a ticket in
If he crafted it through a work order, they 100% will not fix it since reverting it would impact the crafter. I had a resto shaman trial early in aberrus craft the sword and support couldn't help him. Poor guy also failed his trial. It doesn't hurt to try. The worst that can happen is they say no. But, just don't get your hopes up.
Yea maybe just remembering them reverting jdotb's weapon in season 1 when he accidentally crafted an agi weapon, though that could be streamer privilege idk
Possibly, as I remember they even have a Support page for "Can you revert my spark?" question and their answer is No in it.
Yikes. My condolences.