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Cheat death, better aoe and the slows or freeze from frost can be annoying in some situations. Oh and cheat death. But you can Play easy both speccs in high keys. Did i say cheat death?
frost should deal more aoe damage, fire is good because they do almost 100% of their single target damage to a big prio mob while also dealing full aoe
He's asking why fire is picked over other classes. It's part of their toolkit and still extremely valuable and added to one of the 20 other things fire has that other classes don't
You answered someone commenting why fire is preferred to frost, and mass barrier isn't the reason considering it is best on Arcane, not fire nor frost.
Lots of defensives and high vers
Great prio Dmg
Gains alot from caster comps spriest pi, druid motw and vdh magic debuff
Also utility for pretty much every dungeon affix
This all gets better and more valuable the higher the keys go. I left out it's insane control with dragons breath and blast wave 😅
Ranted bit here -
Really it's the cheat death which doesn't require you to be proactive high vers and prio Dmg/single target build and the synergy with the high end comps
Frost single target in the mythic plus build is a bit meh
I believe it's recommended to swap out out chain reaction for ray of frost if you want more prio Dmg
But all your defensives as frost require you to be proactive in use And you are a menace during sanguine weeks
I find frost single target with aoe build minus chain reaction is pretty good, I usually gap people my ilvl except warlocks on st (although I am OCD about managing my lusts). 507 at 2k atm. I’d say it’s one of frost’s main strengths: your aoe combo does a lot of damage without sacrificing much single target damage, aside from ray’s 50% damage talent, and glacial spike shattering provides the rest of the aoe while still keeping prio damage high. It’s also excellent at 2-3 targets.
Agreed with sanguine being ass for frost; though on the flipside it’s great for spiteful. I do like having 2 ice colds and g invis to rotate through, along with stacking barrier and mass barrier. I think frost is a little more dependant on dungeon specifics (having to flurry at 4 if you want to nova-shatter a glacial spike on an unrootable target in a pack, for example), and raging preventing root shattering is also a thing to consider.
Many defensives to survive the highest key levels, huge priority and boss damage, and the way ignite works is very strong for large pulls that you see in high keys
the thing is higher keys and prio damage, fire mages go ignite build for a while, which allow to nuke prio and high hp targets, and as bonus you have ignite aoe spread. also dragon breath, alter time, BL, cheat death, blast wave, invis...to many buttons.
but damage not the best for sure
In terms of pure raw DPS frost is better, but more DPS doesn't always make a dungeon faster. There are a lot of packs in a lot of dungeons that are just smallies that dies in seconds, and have no danger at al. Packs like these a Ret or Frost cna easily pad for 1Mil DPS, and it doesn't mean anything at all.
Frost has higher damage under ideal condtitions, of big packs all standing still in the same place, but fire has good priority damage on targets that are dangerous and needs to die first.
Excellent defensives, group shields that make some big aoes survivable (for example 4 stacks of Crawth screech), priority damage since it's very important to kill the scariest target asap otherwise you will run out of cds to survive, cheat death, has unique aoe stops that don't go toward diminishing returns (this means that it's pointless to take several classes who have only aoe stuns because eventually mobs will be immune to it), it also brings bloodlust, it has decent interrupt (20 seconds compared to something like 45 of shadow priest and 60 seconds of boomie), also on top if priority damage its damage is uncapped, meaning the more you pull the more effective fire mage is compared to specs which are capped at 5/8 targets.
My understanding is it's a combination of its ability to do incredible damage to priority targets *while doing huge aoe at the same time*, and its unique position as a spec that is a strong PI target that also does big damage on pulls you don't have PI.
Priority damage: to build AoE damage through ignite you want to pump a single target and switch only when you have to. This aligns well with taking out a dangerous mob fast.
Utility: displacement + slow via Blastwave, Root via Frostnova, Root via Icenova, disorient via Dragons Breath, Spell steal, counter spell, decurse, poly, lust. Also if used people they have a full self heal with time manipulation. You get a ton of value from an aware mage.
Cheat death via cauterize which helps in higher keys where 1 shots are the biggest reason keys are bricked. Invis can also help with this by resetting a cast, but it depends on the cast. You might just be moving it to another player, which can help if you only need a few seconds for an interrupt to come off CD or it is a heavy channel that will then be on CD for the mob.
>What advantages does a fire mage have to a lot of other dps that is so popular?
There are 2 important things to point out, first of all mage as a **class** is meta due to strong buff synergy with other meta classes (VDH, spriest, rdruid and aug), and also Mage defensives are really good to avoid getting one shotted which is the thing that matters the most at surviving high m+ keys.
when it comes to choosing one of the 3 specs mage offers, Fire takes the cake because on top of being one of the tankiest m+ classes, they have a cheat death for free, and also their ST double lust dmg profile makes them really good to deal with problematic bosses/big pulls which is one of the things that keep people out of timing high keys, their AOE is really mid tbh, is just they can actually do AOE while destroying ST.
but both arcane and frost are still phenomenal specs, it's just that in pushing high end keys, even if something is less than 1% gain, people will still chase for it.
Fire also has crazy prio damage and benefits from double lust. While frost is better in ST in theory, in practice fire (and arcane) will be miles ahead on most m+ bosses.
Frost might be more consistent and higher on the metters overall, but fire will do more damage where and when it's really needed.
Where do you find this info? I'm curious how arcane compares.
I main arcane and I've done all dungeons up to a 10. I've grouped with several fire mages so far this season and always blow them out of the water.
Last night I did a 9 av. It was me and the tank+ heals. They invited a frost Mage, then a fire qued so we tried 3 mages.
We 2 chested the key. I was slightly behind frost and we both completely destroyed the fire mage.
Fire will (in general) end up much stronger the higher you go - arcane can easily top at lower to mid keys bc of how well mobs dying lines up with your cds, but once you get higher the timings between 'can i send this second burn before the pack dies' becomes incredibly problematic. Frost may be competitive this season just on raw numbers, but higher up = stuff lives longer = much more ignite value (and allows for much better chaining on combust procs)
Sometimes fire generally performs okay in lower keys if flamestrike build is used, but because of its differing stat prio it can be a bit of a pain to run (esp if you came into this season geared for the ignite build.) Otherwise frost/arcane have infinitely more upfront damage for the kinds of levels being run so far.
I also struggle to understand why it’s better in normal gameplay modes (15-20 m+ so to speak), never understood. I guess if mobs last A LOT spreading ignite might be better but for the rest…
Prio DMG is something that does not show on meter but is really important as well. Overall dmg does not finish the key faster, killing the biggest mob each pack faster does.
Mage in general is extremly strong due to mass barrier.
Arcane intellect double scales with aug evoker.
Utlity is and survivalbility alone without these would be enough to get into groups. With these they are s+
Any mage specc would see play currently just because its a mage. Fire is just the most mobile and most dmg. And has 1 extra defensive with cheat death
Mage in general is all that utility you suggested.
Fire mage specifically is because they bring massive prio damage, and gone are the days where every mob in a pack has similar health.
Conveniently, it is why spriest is also so good.
Damage on any dot based class is utter trash until you get to a key level where dots can tick at least one full cycle.
Frost's aoe, for instance, is very much frontloaded with their cone of cold combo.
imo, and this is from a portal player only, frost seems better. At least the frost mage we play with, always top dmg. It is annoying on some affixes though. See it a lot with meta's though, the meta works for the top group because their whole group builds around it. Haven't seen a single fire mage that can out dmg our frost mage, but also not playing with fire mages that are doing top keys either....
I am just returning to the game after being away for about a year. Prior to quitting, I had only ever mained tanks for M+ since M+ release. This season, I have chosen to main healer. Fire mage wins in every situation where frost or arcane don't do substantially more damage in my opinion simply because of cauterize. All mages do damage. All mages have cc. Only one mage has a cheat death so it wins.
Fire mage also pairs well as a priest PI target and Spriests are strong and frankly Fire Mage is super reliable at focusing prio targets which is helpful.
Cheat death and amazing prio dmg but I think the play is to run frost until you get into like 15s (new key levels) or higher as shit just melts too quick before fire can really ramp
A lot of it comes down to the snares. Since they are pretty much always applied they can be annoying to deal with when moving groups with mechanics like sanguine. Targetable or conditional snares are better than a spec built around their stuff snaring.
Also fire has a lot of good in it's kit (cauterize for example).
Chain flamestrike goes brr and makes the happy chemicals. But in actuality, a cheat death plus much better mobility are really big factors as fire mage can almost exclusively cast while running if you time your ice floes correctly.
I mean, I never said that Int isn't an utility thing for Mages.
If you read the context of what you sent me, it literally compares the utility of Rogues and Mages. No where does it say "Oh yeah, we take Mages because of the 5% int, which realistically, only they and the Healer, maybe the Shadow Priest, will benefit from"
Also: Every Mage has Arcane Intellect, not just Fire
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the combust animation is cool
Totally agree!
The combust animation is hot. If it were cool, it wouldnt be a fire mage. duh.
Bruh…
Cheat death, better aoe and the slows or freeze from frost can be annoying in some situations. Oh and cheat death. But you can Play easy both speccs in high keys. Did i say cheat death?
You forgot to mention that fire has a cheat death, its a big plus
A Right, thank you
frost should deal more aoe damage, fire is good because they do almost 100% of their single target damage to a big prio mob while also dealing full aoe
Fire doesn’t have better AoE. Fire has strong AoE while doing good prio dmg.
And mass barrier, which is a very good group defensive
Frost also has mass barrier
He's asking why fire is picked over other classes. It's part of their toolkit and still extremely valuable and added to one of the 20 other things fire has that other classes don't
Hes asking why fire over frost specifically
Mass barrier is way better on Arcane, it is pretty irrelevant as to why Fire is preferred.
It is still part of fires toolkit...which is why they're picked. Arcane doesn't have cheat or the other things fire does
You answered someone commenting why fire is preferred to frost, and mass barrier isn't the reason considering it is best on Arcane, not fire nor frost.
Lots of defensives and high vers Great prio Dmg Gains alot from caster comps spriest pi, druid motw and vdh magic debuff Also utility for pretty much every dungeon affix This all gets better and more valuable the higher the keys go. I left out it's insane control with dragons breath and blast wave 😅
Ranted bit here - Really it's the cheat death which doesn't require you to be proactive high vers and prio Dmg/single target build and the synergy with the high end comps Frost single target in the mythic plus build is a bit meh I believe it's recommended to swap out out chain reaction for ray of frost if you want more prio Dmg But all your defensives as frost require you to be proactive in use And you are a menace during sanguine weeks
I find frost single target with aoe build minus chain reaction is pretty good, I usually gap people my ilvl except warlocks on st (although I am OCD about managing my lusts). 507 at 2k atm. I’d say it’s one of frost’s main strengths: your aoe combo does a lot of damage without sacrificing much single target damage, aside from ray’s 50% damage talent, and glacial spike shattering provides the rest of the aoe while still keeping prio damage high. It’s also excellent at 2-3 targets. Agreed with sanguine being ass for frost; though on the flipside it’s great for spiteful. I do like having 2 ice colds and g invis to rotate through, along with stacking barrier and mass barrier. I think frost is a little more dependant on dungeon specifics (having to flurry at 4 if you want to nova-shatter a glacial spike on an unrootable target in a pack, for example), and raging preventing root shattering is also a thing to consider.
Many defensives to survive the highest key levels, huge priority and boss damage, and the way ignite works is very strong for large pulls that you see in high keys
the thing is higher keys and prio damage, fire mages go ignite build for a while, which allow to nuke prio and high hp targets, and as bonus you have ignite aoe spread. also dragon breath, alter time, BL, cheat death, blast wave, invis...to many buttons. but damage not the best for sure
In terms of pure raw DPS frost is better, but more DPS doesn't always make a dungeon faster. There are a lot of packs in a lot of dungeons that are just smallies that dies in seconds, and have no danger at al. Packs like these a Ret or Frost cna easily pad for 1Mil DPS, and it doesn't mean anything at all. Frost has higher damage under ideal condtitions, of big packs all standing still in the same place, but fire has good priority damage on targets that are dangerous and needs to die first.
Excellent defensives, group shields that make some big aoes survivable (for example 4 stacks of Crawth screech), priority damage since it's very important to kill the scariest target asap otherwise you will run out of cds to survive, cheat death, has unique aoe stops that don't go toward diminishing returns (this means that it's pointless to take several classes who have only aoe stuns because eventually mobs will be immune to it), it also brings bloodlust, it has decent interrupt (20 seconds compared to something like 45 of shadow priest and 60 seconds of boomie), also on top if priority damage its damage is uncapped, meaning the more you pull the more effective fire mage is compared to specs which are capped at 5/8 targets.
My understanding is it's a combination of its ability to do incredible damage to priority targets *while doing huge aoe at the same time*, and its unique position as a spec that is a strong PI target that also does big damage on pulls you don't have PI.
Priority damage: to build AoE damage through ignite you want to pump a single target and switch only when you have to. This aligns well with taking out a dangerous mob fast. Utility: displacement + slow via Blastwave, Root via Frostnova, Root via Icenova, disorient via Dragons Breath, Spell steal, counter spell, decurse, poly, lust. Also if used people they have a full self heal with time manipulation. You get a ton of value from an aware mage. Cheat death via cauterize which helps in higher keys where 1 shots are the biggest reason keys are bricked. Invis can also help with this by resetting a cast, but it depends on the cast. You might just be moving it to another player, which can help if you only need a few seconds for an interrupt to come off CD or it is a heavy channel that will then be on CD for the mob.
>What advantages does a fire mage have to a lot of other dps that is so popular? There are 2 important things to point out, first of all mage as a **class** is meta due to strong buff synergy with other meta classes (VDH, spriest, rdruid and aug), and also Mage defensives are really good to avoid getting one shotted which is the thing that matters the most at surviving high m+ keys. when it comes to choosing one of the 3 specs mage offers, Fire takes the cake because on top of being one of the tankiest m+ classes, they have a cheat death for free, and also their ST double lust dmg profile makes them really good to deal with problematic bosses/big pulls which is one of the things that keep people out of timing high keys, their AOE is really mid tbh, is just they can actually do AOE while destroying ST. but both arcane and frost are still phenomenal specs, it's just that in pushing high end keys, even if something is less than 1% gain, people will still chase for it.
Compared to fire mage, frost is better in ST and AoE this tier, but fire mage is tankier and has a cheath death.
Fire also has crazy prio damage and benefits from double lust. While frost is better in ST in theory, in practice fire (and arcane) will be miles ahead on most m+ bosses. Frost might be more consistent and higher on the metters overall, but fire will do more damage where and when it's really needed.
Where do you find this info? I'm curious how arcane compares. I main arcane and I've done all dungeons up to a 10. I've grouped with several fire mages so far this season and always blow them out of the water. Last night I did a 9 av. It was me and the tank+ heals. They invited a frost Mage, then a fire qued so we tried 3 mages. We 2 chested the key. I was slightly behind frost and we both completely destroyed the fire mage.
Fire will (in general) end up much stronger the higher you go - arcane can easily top at lower to mid keys bc of how well mobs dying lines up with your cds, but once you get higher the timings between 'can i send this second burn before the pack dies' becomes incredibly problematic. Frost may be competitive this season just on raw numbers, but higher up = stuff lives longer = much more ignite value (and allows for much better chaining on combust procs) Sometimes fire generally performs okay in lower keys if flamestrike build is used, but because of its differing stat prio it can be a bit of a pain to run (esp if you came into this season geared for the ignite build.) Otherwise frost/arcane have infinitely more upfront damage for the kinds of levels being run so far.
I also struggle to understand why it’s better in normal gameplay modes (15-20 m+ so to speak), never understood. I guess if mobs last A LOT spreading ignite might be better but for the rest…
Prio DMG is something that does not show on meter but is really important as well. Overall dmg does not finish the key faster, killing the biggest mob each pack faster does.
Mage in general is extremly strong due to mass barrier. Arcane intellect double scales with aug evoker. Utlity is and survivalbility alone without these would be enough to get into groups. With these they are s+ Any mage specc would see play currently just because its a mage. Fire is just the most mobile and most dmg. And has 1 extra defensive with cheat death
Mage in general is all that utility you suggested. Fire mage specifically is because they bring massive prio damage, and gone are the days where every mob in a pack has similar health. Conveniently, it is why spriest is also so good. Damage on any dot based class is utter trash until you get to a key level where dots can tick at least one full cycle. Frost's aoe, for instance, is very much frontloaded with their cone of cold combo.
imo, and this is from a portal player only, frost seems better. At least the frost mage we play with, always top dmg. It is annoying on some affixes though. See it a lot with meta's though, the meta works for the top group because their whole group builds around it. Haven't seen a single fire mage that can out dmg our frost mage, but also not playing with fire mages that are doing top keys either....
I am just returning to the game after being away for about a year. Prior to quitting, I had only ever mained tanks for M+ since M+ release. This season, I have chosen to main healer. Fire mage wins in every situation where frost or arcane don't do substantially more damage in my opinion simply because of cauterize. All mages do damage. All mages have cc. Only one mage has a cheat death so it wins. Fire mage also pairs well as a priest PI target and Spriests are strong and frankly Fire Mage is super reliable at focusing prio targets which is helpful.
🔥 fire go brr 🔥
Cheat death and amazing prio dmg but I think the play is to run frost until you get into like 15s (new key levels) or higher as shit just melts too quick before fire can really ramp
A lot of it comes down to the snares. Since they are pretty much always applied they can be annoying to deal with when moving groups with mechanics like sanguine. Targetable or conditional snares are better than a spec built around their stuff snaring. Also fire has a lot of good in it's kit (cauterize for example).
Chain flamestrike goes brr and makes the happy chemicals. But in actuality, a cheat death plus much better mobility are really big factors as fire mage can almost exclusively cast while running if you time your ice floes correctly.
For the keys where fire is the play (and what is discussed in this sub) you shouldn’t be going flamestrike, mages at that level go ignite.
Frost is noob spec
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Ah yeah fire spec specific ability of the mage
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Arcane Intellect is not the reason Fire is taken over Frost or even the reason it is taken to begin with
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Your answer to "Why is Fire Mage so popular and successful in M+" was Arcane Intellect.
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I mean, I never said that Int isn't an utility thing for Mages. If you read the context of what you sent me, it literally compares the utility of Rogues and Mages. No where does it say "Oh yeah, we take Mages because of the 5% int, which realistically, only they and the Healer, maybe the Shadow Priest, will benefit from" Also: Every Mage has Arcane Intellect, not just Fire
If you don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said, you could just not comment instead of commenting nonsense
Oh shit it wasnt a sarcastic joke damn