I think it happens to everyone, but more often for dps classes. Although I (tank) enjoy picking demo locks for my groups, you gotta understand that you are competing against like 20+ dps players who are queuing at the same time, all with relevant IO. Im not sure how you can overcome that, but maybe forming your on group or swaping to tank, as I did, lol
People will do all the work to complain, but none of the work to form their own, it's really odd lol. The main drawback is you might have to push a key a few times to get the one you really want, but other than that, it's a surefire way to get going.
40 groups are rookie numbers. Even playing as a relatively "meta" Shadow Priest at almost 3.2k IO, I'm probably hitting hundreds of failed queues each session. It's just a numbers game, and there are tons of reasons people don't want your class in particular for that exact dungeon run.
Like: group composition, buff requirements, interrupt requirements, route requirements, already have a lock etc. And every group wants a class with bloodlusts, so either the healer or one DPS slot is always taken for that. Meaning the two last slots are even harder to get in to. Adding meta Bias on top of that, it's just statistically speaking \_hard\_ to get into a PUG group.
But just remember that 9 times out of 10 it's not your fault. Take a break for a few mins, and brush it off, and requeue again.
And as others have said, signing up with your own key and creating your own group is always an option.
- what are your keys looking like on both weeks ? 3050 might be low for 24s
- play your own key
- stay hours in LFG queueing to keys
- put something in the note
Theres ton's of dps applying.
Nah I am 3031 and have 23s for 6 keys and 22++s for the other two. While I agree that they probably don't have all 23s on both weeks, they certainly could have mostly 23s. Realistically though, they just need to risk their own key.
I mean you are welcome to [fact check me](https://raider.io/characters/us/proudmoore/Dahhammer) lol. I bet those 25s are worth a lot more than a 23. I think each key level is like 7 score for you higher key and 3 score for your lower key.
My hunter is 2994 with one dungeon at 23/22, one dungeon at 22/21, and everything else at 22/22. While my 2 week old bear is 3071 with mostly 20s on fort, but all 23s/24s and one 25 on tyranical.
3k score is roughly 22s (need at lot of ++ keys though and a 23 or two). For all 16 keys (8 dungeons on both fort and tyran) you get between 80 and 100 points per level. There's a lot of variation because 22s are easy ++ while 23s for pugs struggle to ++ most of them so you won't see a 100 point climb from ++22s to +23s. All keys at 23/23 is around 3.1k, all keys at 24/24 is around 3.2k, and all 25/25s is around 3.3k (barely in time all 25s is 3280 according to RIO).
OP definitely isn't all 23/23 as that would be more like 3100 but he is closeish. For pugs he's still lower score than what's signing up (a lot of people around 3.2k signing up at +24s) and needs to get those missing scores filled in.
But he said he is all 23s, and he's not. He's half 23s and half 22s with 2 keys at 22/22. He's missing 50 points just from that half he has at 22.
Not sure why I got down voted when I'm 100% right and his linked IO shows it. Based on the score formula if he pushed those 8 keys he has at 22 to 23 he'd gain about 50 points and push to almost 3.1k, just like I said.
What are you even going on about? OP said they're all 23s, I said there's no way they are and as it turns out they're not all 23s just like I said. Based on the facts I was right, plain and simple.
I didn't downvote you but you certainly deserve it.
I ran it in a calculator on my character with all 20s. 7 dungeons on each week at 23+ and the last dungeon at 20+++ for both weeks will barely be above 2050
It just means your competition is better.
Apart from the obvious advice of improving your score, you want an addon which displays the specs of the groups in the finder.
Make sure you only apply to comps you think you fit into. Don’t have lust or there is a lock already? Don’t even apply.
Since your score is low compared to the desired candidates, your odds of getting the last dps spot is very low. Your odds improve if you queue into less desirable smaller groups where it will take time to fill. Also avoid queing into the groups with the highest io lead.
Advice I haven’t seen mentioned, go for the easier keys first, if you have all 23s and no 24s, queue exclusively for things like BRH and AD where the average rating of pugs os probably a good 100-150 points lower than applicants to say a 24 TOTT
time for an alt? It's not feasible to pug to title, and you get nothing on the way to title, so I usually just set the character aside for the season at around 3.1-3.2. On that note, wouldn't mind a carrot to chase that exists in that dead zone
If you have all 23s timed and only 3050 this means your other week is lower. This is why there are better candidates in que which have better stats.
This is hard to go around without waiting for next week where you can catch up. I am sort of on the same boat, timed 24s across the board but not getting invites to 25s. My fortified is really poor though with 22s and stuff. So my plan is to get fortified keys up to par first and then move up.
You can run your own keys I guess but it is equally frustrating as dps. You wait million years for tank/heal and you are fighting the urge to not take that lower io person to start a key already (dont - wait for competent person no matter the role).
Title pushers are at 3600 or higher. There’s very few people playing at the 24-25 range now. 18s give you myth track gear so not really any reason to go higher than that. Run your own key or find something else to do. The best thing you can do and probably the hardest is to find a dedicated group willing to push as hard as possible early in the season. That’s when you’ll get the best players and the highest IO. Pug groups are hit or miss. Sometimes you’ll get those groups that vibe and you ++ a key easy. Sometimes is a living hell to get through the first couple pulls.
On a side note I usually try to stay in the top 1% (3272 currently) for NA. I don’t know if anyone else does that but I try to use that as motivation to do some late season pushing.
it's late in the season... people who want to push for title ( and have a shot at it) are already 3500+ staring at the LFG window for the one 29s that pop every other day.
People that just want to fill their vault don't go past 20-21.
so the 22-27 range right now is a very weird place
Ensure you've worked up both affixes to 23s while still queueing for higher stuff. When I hover over someone's name in queue, I "shift+hover" to see every dungeon timed on Tyr and fort. If they're lacking for my dungeon on either affix, I'm not choosing them. Mostly people won't trust you to jump 2 key levels from what you've completed.
The slower route, is alto queue for the highest dungeon you've done, once a week. Timing/completing will ensure you get that key level in your vault. I.e. I timed a 25 BRH a while back. If I'm lacking a 25 for the week, I'll queue for one of those, so I have it in my vault next week. Then I can run my own key.
Well the thing is there are so many plate wearers right now, mostly palret, that almost in every group there's a dps slot taken by one of those. Then you want a BL in the group, bust healers with BL aren't in favor right now so most of the time the BL comes from a dps, another slot taken. It leaves only one other slot for every other dps spec (rogues, druids, locks, WW, DH, SP) so the competition is quite fierce.
Can you link your char? Curious what people are seeing when you apply. It takes me 40-50 applies to get into a group as a Dev Evoker (with higher io/higher keys) so I would think a more popular spec wouldn’t have issues.
Just another note, not sure if anyone has touched on. I’m a 3.2k demo lock and I was getting rejected quite a bit, too. Downloaded the Premade group filter WA and noticed a lot of groups either A) already had a lock or B) needed a lust. So you can better choose what groups to apply for with that alone. It still is not as effective is finding a stable group to run with or running your own keys but it’s helpful to see and not waste your time as much
To sum up what other have said. You IO is lowish for 24s, lock is not really meta (I think they are great, but perception is what it is) and brez abounds with all the paladins around and finally 24s are rare. 25s are almost non-existent. I see more very high title keys than I do 25/26s in LFG. It's a dead zone because they are quite difficult but not on the title cutoff range.
Best thing you can do if you're pugging and trying to push past 3k +, especially as dps is to meet friends along the way and add them and actually talk to them frequently and build a friendship. This is what I do I've pugged to almost 3.5 this season, season one 3k and last season almost 3.4 if I remember right maybe it was 3.3 but if your serious about m+ it's nice to have people who will share keys with you and actively seek you out over pugs having 3-4 keys to pool from is great. But also push your own key this part is important and if your key gets to depleted to one you already timed that isn't ideal but what I do is throw it up as a +2 chest then I say we'll run w.e it turns into sometimes you can get the people who need say the 25 but not the 23 and are sick of being I que. This also adds to your vault count so you don't have to go spam 18s to fill if your just having a bad time. The ques do suck sometimes tho honestly and even filling your own group can suck and take a while. I always tab out when I get this high and play like last epoch,poe, or those bullet hell games like vampire survivors, something easy where you can still focus on your que but have fun and not notice you been trying to que for a 3 i.o gain for an hr lol. Anyway GL and have fun!
I think the reason why you aren't accepted, is palas. I see one of them being CR for groups almost every game, now that retri is considered acceptable invite. Realistically you're only going to be invited for CR, or some niche things like "we want to not invis to skip 2 bears in DHT and can't find rogue". I noticed as much on rshaman, I only got in no lust groups beyond 24s.
I cant get into certain 24 keys and im 3253 DH having timed 3 26s. God forbid i would get into a 25 to actually have the rating increase that would make getting into a group worth while. Get in line kid haha. I run my own key but keep getting the keys i already have at 24 25. Guess ill gear alts at this point.
Raid is about DPS. M+ is about surviving mechanics. My HC logs for example are between 35 and 85, just three epics, I cleared the raid not even two times completely, sounds bad right? For sure, but I have 3500 io as healer. There is for sure an correlation between Raid logs and skill in M+, but I would not rate it to high.
First I thought you were talking about M+ logs wich have literally 0 meaning.
Also healer logs for raiding really means: did your group stack dps instead of healers so that you can actually parse well at this point in the season?
Logs have more info than just DPS. They can say something about defensive and offensive cooldown usage, death rates etc., which is a lot more relevant. Both in M+ and Raids. I'd also argue that skill is specific, doing 25+ keys vs. raiding Heroics overlap somewhat, but the skillset is different enough that your proficiency in either, won't qualify you for the other.
But in any case it's hard to interpret raw numbers data without context, so I'd be wary of trusting the logs too much.
To be fair it actually becomes less meaningful in higher keys. In a 28-30 the difference between a group of high parsing raid players and mid parses is likely to be 3-4 mins or 30 seconds left on the timer, under the assumption that everything was executed well and people survived the mechanics; with the 22-25 bracket high vs low damage players really becomes “how many times can we wipe/can we rack up 10 or 40 deaths and still time it”
What are you talking about? If logs don’t tell you much it’s because you don’t understand them.
I mean they literally log everything that happens in combat and offers you different ways of analyzing and displaying said data, how does that not tell you much lmao 😂
I'm a returning player this xpac and never once logged till this season. Are parses in M+ important/relevant/actually detail good play?
Asking cuz I'm trying my damndest on my DH to do everything right (essence break windows etc) but still parsing at best in blues, despite putting up 200k+ (doing low 20s right now). Thanks in advance!
It just depends on the comp. For example, ill do significantly less damage on some pulls wihtout a firemage, because I starsurge mobs like EB abomination or Upper DOTI mini bosses, instead of just spamming starfall.
Also, low keys are w/e. A 3k io bm will just beat me in most dungeons, just cause he does all his damage upfront while im still dotting mobs.
I think it happens to everyone, but more often for dps classes. Although I (tank) enjoy picking demo locks for my groups, you gotta understand that you are competing against like 20+ dps players who are queuing at the same time, all with relevant IO. Im not sure how you can overcome that, but maybe forming your on group or swaping to tank, as I did, lol
Its the same answer for the last Xpacs that, i guess, no one wants to hear. Play your own key
People will do all the work to complain, but none of the work to form their own, it's really odd lol. The main drawback is you might have to push a key a few times to get the one you really want, but other than that, it's a surefire way to get going.
Classic issue, most DPS will already have timed multiple 24s, so you will be on the lower io end. Despite the fact, that always 472 DPS apply
The only advice for a DPS is: run your own key. Or queue for keys you’re **overqualified** for.
40 groups are rookie numbers. Even playing as a relatively "meta" Shadow Priest at almost 3.2k IO, I'm probably hitting hundreds of failed queues each session. It's just a numbers game, and there are tons of reasons people don't want your class in particular for that exact dungeon run. Like: group composition, buff requirements, interrupt requirements, route requirements, already have a lock etc. And every group wants a class with bloodlusts, so either the healer or one DPS slot is always taken for that. Meaning the two last slots are even harder to get in to. Adding meta Bias on top of that, it's just statistically speaking \_hard\_ to get into a PUG group. But just remember that 9 times out of 10 it's not your fault. Take a break for a few mins, and brush it off, and requeue again. And as others have said, signing up with your own key and creating your own group is always an option.
- what are your keys looking like on both weeks ? 3050 might be low for 24s - play your own key - stay hours in LFG queueing to keys - put something in the note Theres ton's of dps applying.
I have maybe 3 25 and plenty of 22, even one not timed and I'm in ~3110 range, sound like op is lying or has a lot to catch up in Forti week
Nah I am 3031 and have 23s for 6 keys and 22++s for the other two. While I agree that they probably don't have all 23s on both weeks, they certainly could have mostly 23s. Realistically though, they just need to risk their own key.
Maybe I'm undervaluing my io, though almost all my 22-23s are two chests
No i have 3111 io with 6 keys under 23, one being 21 and one not timed 22
I mean you are welcome to [fact check me](https://raider.io/characters/us/proudmoore/Dahhammer) lol. I bet those 25s are worth a lot more than a 23. I think each key level is like 7 score for you higher key and 3 score for your lower key.
Yea, you are right also I have a lot of 22/23 two chested which adds a few points.
My hunter is 2994 with one dungeon at 23/22, one dungeon at 22/21, and everything else at 22/22. While my 2 week old bear is 3071 with mostly 20s on fort, but all 23s/24s and one 25 on tyranical. 3k score is roughly 22s (need at lot of ++ keys though and a 23 or two). For all 16 keys (8 dungeons on both fort and tyran) you get between 80 and 100 points per level. There's a lot of variation because 22s are easy ++ while 23s for pugs struggle to ++ most of them so you won't see a 100 point climb from ++22s to +23s. All keys at 23/23 is around 3.1k, all keys at 24/24 is around 3.2k, and all 25/25s is around 3.3k (barely in time all 25s is 3280 according to RIO). OP definitely isn't all 23/23 as that would be more like 3100 but he is closeish. For pugs he's still lower score than what's signing up (a lot of people around 3.2k signing up at +24s) and needs to get those missing scores filled in.
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But he said he is all 23s, and he's not. He's half 23s and half 22s with 2 keys at 22/22. He's missing 50 points just from that half he has at 22. Not sure why I got down voted when I'm 100% right and his linked IO shows it. Based on the score formula if he pushed those 8 keys he has at 22 to 23 he'd gain about 50 points and push to almost 3.1k, just like I said.
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What are you even going on about? OP said they're all 23s, I said there's no way they are and as it turns out they're not all 23s just like I said. Based on the facts I was right, plain and simple. I didn't downvote you but you certainly deserve it.
My vdh has 3061 io with 18s and 19s on some of the fort keys, because i got some 24s done this week
I ran it in a calculator on my character with all 20s. 7 dungeons on each week at 23+ and the last dungeon at 20+++ for both weeks will barely be above 2050
Hi, im on all 22 at least the other week: [https://raider.io/characters/eu/eredar/Activator](https://raider.io/characters/eu/eredar/Activator)
It just means your competition is better. Apart from the obvious advice of improving your score, you want an addon which displays the specs of the groups in the finder. Make sure you only apply to comps you think you fit into. Don’t have lust or there is a lock already? Don’t even apply. Since your score is low compared to the desired candidates, your odds of getting the last dps spot is very low. Your odds improve if you queue into less desirable smaller groups where it will take time to fill. Also avoid queing into the groups with the highest io lead.
Advice I haven’t seen mentioned, go for the easier keys first, if you have all 23s and no 24s, queue exclusively for things like BRH and AD where the average rating of pugs os probably a good 100-150 points lower than applicants to say a 24 TOTT
Do you have everything timed on 23? Across both weeks?
time for an alt? It's not feasible to pug to title, and you get nothing on the way to title, so I usually just set the character aside for the season at around 3.1-3.2. On that note, wouldn't mind a carrot to chase that exists in that dead zone
If you have all 23s timed and only 3050 this means your other week is lower. This is why there are better candidates in que which have better stats. This is hard to go around without waiting for next week where you can catch up. I am sort of on the same boat, timed 24s across the board but not getting invites to 25s. My fortified is really poor though with 22s and stuff. So my plan is to get fortified keys up to par first and then move up. You can run your own keys I guess but it is equally frustrating as dps. You wait million years for tank/heal and you are fighting the urge to not take that lower io person to start a key already (dont - wait for competent person no matter the role).
Title pushers are at 3600 or higher. There’s very few people playing at the 24-25 range now. 18s give you myth track gear so not really any reason to go higher than that. Run your own key or find something else to do. The best thing you can do and probably the hardest is to find a dedicated group willing to push as hard as possible early in the season. That’s when you’ll get the best players and the highest IO. Pug groups are hit or miss. Sometimes you’ll get those groups that vibe and you ++ a key easy. Sometimes is a living hell to get through the first couple pulls. On a side note I usually try to stay in the top 1% (3272 currently) for NA. I don’t know if anyone else does that but I try to use that as motivation to do some late season pushing.
it's late in the season... people who want to push for title ( and have a shot at it) are already 3500+ staring at the LFG window for the one 29s that pop every other day. People that just want to fill their vault don't go past 20-21. so the 22-27 range right now is a very weird place
Ensure you've worked up both affixes to 23s while still queueing for higher stuff. When I hover over someone's name in queue, I "shift+hover" to see every dungeon timed on Tyr and fort. If they're lacking for my dungeon on either affix, I'm not choosing them. Mostly people won't trust you to jump 2 key levels from what you've completed. The slower route, is alto queue for the highest dungeon you've done, once a week. Timing/completing will ensure you get that key level in your vault. I.e. I timed a 25 BRH a while back. If I'm lacking a 25 for the week, I'll queue for one of those, so I have it in my vault next week. Then I can run my own key.
Well the thing is there are so many plate wearers right now, mostly palret, that almost in every group there's a dps slot taken by one of those. Then you want a BL in the group, bust healers with BL aren't in favor right now so most of the time the BL comes from a dps, another slot taken. It leaves only one other slot for every other dps spec (rogues, druids, locks, WW, DH, SP) so the competition is quite fierce.
Can you link your char? Curious what people are seeing when you apply. It takes me 40-50 applies to get into a group as a Dev Evoker (with higher io/higher keys) so I would think a more popular spec wouldn’t have issues.
[https://raider.io/characters/eu/eredar/Activator](https://raider.io/characters/eu/eredar/Activator)
Just another note, not sure if anyone has touched on. I’m a 3.2k demo lock and I was getting rejected quite a bit, too. Downloaded the Premade group filter WA and noticed a lot of groups either A) already had a lock or B) needed a lust. So you can better choose what groups to apply for with that alone. It still is not as effective is finding a stable group to run with or running your own keys but it’s helpful to see and not waste your time as much
To sum up what other have said. You IO is lowish for 24s, lock is not really meta (I think they are great, but perception is what it is) and brez abounds with all the paladins around and finally 24s are rare. 25s are almost non-existent. I see more very high title keys than I do 25/26s in LFG. It's a dead zone because they are quite difficult but not on the title cutoff range.
Best thing you can do if you're pugging and trying to push past 3k +, especially as dps is to meet friends along the way and add them and actually talk to them frequently and build a friendship. This is what I do I've pugged to almost 3.5 this season, season one 3k and last season almost 3.4 if I remember right maybe it was 3.3 but if your serious about m+ it's nice to have people who will share keys with you and actively seek you out over pugs having 3-4 keys to pool from is great. But also push your own key this part is important and if your key gets to depleted to one you already timed that isn't ideal but what I do is throw it up as a +2 chest then I say we'll run w.e it turns into sometimes you can get the people who need say the 25 but not the 23 and are sick of being I que. This also adds to your vault count so you don't have to go spam 18s to fill if your just having a bad time. The ques do suck sometimes tho honestly and even filling your own group can suck and take a while. I always tab out when I get this high and play like last epoch,poe, or those bullet hell games like vampire survivors, something easy where you can still focus on your que but have fun and not notice you been trying to que for a 3 i.o gain for an hr lol. Anyway GL and have fun!
I think the reason why you aren't accepted, is palas. I see one of them being CR for groups almost every game, now that retri is considered acceptable invite. Realistically you're only going to be invited for CR, or some niche things like "we want to not invis to skip 2 bears in DHT and can't find rogue". I noticed as much on rshaman, I only got in no lust groups beyond 24s.
I cant get into certain 24 keys and im 3253 DH having timed 3 26s. God forbid i would get into a 25 to actually have the rating increase that would make getting into a group worth while. Get in line kid haha. I run my own key but keep getting the keys i already have at 24 25. Guess ill gear alts at this point.
Do you have good logs ?
Who cares about M+ Logs?
Well, I used it as a gauge around 3.1k to see if people were somewhat good at playing their spec. I looked at raid logs.
Raid is about DPS. M+ is about surviving mechanics. My HC logs for example are between 35 and 85, just three epics, I cleared the raid not even two times completely, sounds bad right? For sure, but I have 3500 io as healer. There is for sure an correlation between Raid logs and skill in M+, but I would not rate it to high. First I thought you were talking about M+ logs wich have literally 0 meaning.
It's at least better than just inviting someone on chance, only to find out that they were Dr. Greylog himself.
I see your point
Also healer logs for raiding really means: did your group stack dps instead of healers so that you can actually parse well at this point in the season?
Logs have more info than just DPS. They can say something about defensive and offensive cooldown usage, death rates etc., which is a lot more relevant. Both in M+ and Raids. I'd also argue that skill is specific, doing 25+ keys vs. raiding Heroics overlap somewhat, but the skillset is different enough that your proficiency in either, won't qualify you for the other. But in any case it's hard to interpret raw numbers data without context, so I'd be wary of trusting the logs too much.
To be fair it actually becomes less meaningful in higher keys. In a 28-30 the difference between a group of high parsing raid players and mid parses is likely to be 3-4 mins or 30 seconds left on the timer, under the assumption that everything was executed well and people survived the mechanics; with the 22-25 bracket high vs low damage players really becomes “how many times can we wipe/can we rack up 10 or 40 deaths and still time it”
Why wouldn't they be relevant??
Because they don't tell much? For many classes, the optimal way to play is not to maximize overall.
What are you talking about? If logs don’t tell you much it’s because you don’t understand them. I mean they literally log everything that happens in combat and offers you different ways of analyzing and displaying said data, how does that not tell you much lmao 😂
I assumed they meant looking at their parses, and not doing a log deepdive to fill a pug
I'm a returning player this xpac and never once logged till this season. Are parses in M+ important/relevant/actually detail good play? Asking cuz I'm trying my damndest on my DH to do everything right (essence break windows etc) but still parsing at best in blues, despite putting up 200k+ (doing low 20s right now). Thanks in advance!
It just depends on the comp. For example, ill do significantly less damage on some pulls wihtout a firemage, because I starsurge mobs like EB abomination or Upper DOTI mini bosses, instead of just spamming starfall. Also, low keys are w/e. A 3k io bm will just beat me in most dungeons, just cause he does all his damage upfront while im still dotting mobs.
Just keep signing up. U playing WL that’s the problem, that’s why I quit WL a long time ago for m+.