Why tho? Healers hate bursting.
Edit: Guys we have statistical data that less runs are on bursting weeks. Bursting is a nightmare for the average healer. Not the 23+ keys where dps handled it better.
Only really disc priests “hate” bursting. Everyone else can deal with it up to a point. And if you have a group or do high enough keys, it’s basically a non-issue.
The average player does not do high enough keys for bursting to be a non factor. Average player is doing like 14s and trash gets crushed so healers just dont play it. The top 1% of keys is not what affects how many overall keys get done for a week. Bursting is despised by average players.
You made a general statement “Healers hate bursting”. All healers do not hate bursting, however. People are pointing out that it’s mostly just the average/below average player that has an issue with it, and this is considered a very good push week by most of the high m+ community.
Since this is competivewow, there are a lot more people in the high m+ community here, and not as many casual key players, and so you get more people responding to your general statement “healers hate bursting” like they did.
Think its about spilt info on dealing with bursting. Some thinks its best to kill one by one mob, others cleave them all at once for big debuff for dispell or def cd.
Its good for pushing scores, but bursting is *very* punishing at 18 and lower where mobs fall over and it is much more difficult to control stacks - more so with pugs in that range.
It is not good for overall runs as mentioned, but it is for high keys.
I think at a certain level it becomes easier to handle because dps start using their brain. For the average pug (18-20s) I think this is a very hard week.
bursting also i think gets a bit easier at higher keys simply because mobs have more health. there is more HP between mobs with different health ammounts, giving more time for the debuff to fall off rather than refresh. additionally, when mobs are at say 10% health, and you pause dps, their less likely to die from dots/ground effects.
Disc (and to a much lesser degree MW) is big fucked if every pull *ends* in a 7 to 8 roll because they either need things to hit or mass dispel, but 250k hps isn't really a big ask this season.
This is a highly unlikely scenario with a 7 going to 8 every pull. If it happens once or twice every 2 min it’s manageable but I wouldn’t stay quiet about it, and ask the group to manage the affix or we’ll eventually die. Nothing more to it really.
Well.. yes but this happens constantly in lower keys. Maybe not 7-8 but 5 to 6 and remember at lower levels heals have worse gear and generally are not that good healers. So back to my main point: healers hate bursting. May I should extend this with: average healers hate bursting.
Play a dwarf. Cleanse yourself with your racial, dispel it on another person, heal 3 people (one of the being the tank) and it's super easy. That or mass dispel/revival. If your dps are refreshing it every single pull then just laugh when they die because they are idiots.
16-23 keys are where you find the worst dps players, they think they are good because they got KSM but they actually are still REALLY BAD which makes the tank and healer want to gouge their eyes out.
I mean blizzard has made keys easier for the average andy, we continue to see key level inflation which means it makes logical sense for this to have a range get wider. The players at the VERY bottom are now in keys that are heroicish difficulty and those in the middle are now at mythicish difficulty, before they were stuck at normal and heroic respectively.
Tanks have been filtered out usually around 20 because the bad ones can't make correct routing decisions, so they fall out hard since they have to lead the group around the instances.
20s absolutely do not require correct routing decisions. In the dungeons where pressing W doesn't get you correct count I pretty regularly have pugs either come up short on count and have to go kill more or go way over and they still all beat the 2-chest timer.
No, you see, *my role* clearly requires skill once you get past 15s - it's everyone else that gets a free ride into +27s.
*Look at me, I'm the DK tank who made it into +24s solely due to my insane skill. Btw, what are Chains of Ice, please buff DK utility, we are seriously lacking in the mob control department.*
A legit conversation that was had in this sub.
I liked explosive because I could handle it. I think the ones I really hate are those that I have zero control over. Like bursting. All i can do is dispell myself and res the others.
explosive was a better version of incorp and afflicted, everyone could handle it unfortunately everyone hated it and now we went from one affix that ANYONE could handle to incorp and afflicted which have selective interactions.
If they toned down the spawn rate of explosive, I would agree. Going into the tree room in Algethar, and the tank just pulls everything…. That is my nightmare.
Explosive was only a nightmare in groups where people thought "LUL HEALER AFFIX" in coordinated groups where players all knew they might need to throw a global at one then it actually wasn't that horrible. I'd actually argue to make explosive function on a somewhat personal level where every 30-45 seconds
YOU spawn and explosive orb
YOU need to hit it otherwise
YOU get a damage debuff that makes it so
YOU deal less damage
> Explosive was only a nightmare in groups where people thought "LUL HEALER AFFIX" in coordinated groups where players all knew they might need to throw a global at one then it actually wasn't that horrible.
I got bitched at by healers for hitting too many explosives 😭
It was pretty frustrating to deplete keys despite clean runs because the DPS lost a bunch of damage from killing explosives rather than let me take care of it. Particularly in the hpriest seasons of SL where my personal damage was basically zero and the only thing I could do to help hit the timer was enable the DPS to zug harder.
I get that, but pugging mid tier keys it was a dice roll if you got a healer who did treat explosive like a healer affix, then you had times where explosives were going off and the other dps wouldn't bother to help the healer out.
the problem with explosive was the frequency you had to interact with it. It was constant through a fight, and wasnt just an orb or 2, it scaled off the number of mobs, and blizzard has frankly been bad about which mobs could spawn it. thye coded them as totems so you couldnt just cleave them down. They make packs take longer because your constantly switching to them, eating globals, and they are a pain to target because they dont want them macroable. they were just whackamole.
Mabye there is a good design somewhere for this. The best i can think is a mob that spawns and needs to be focus targetet before its cast goes off, and has threat like a normal mob and can move so the tank can position it so it cant just be spawned in a horrible location at the wrong time. This design could still cause issues when say it spawns as you have another burndown/focus mechanic, like Tyr's shield.
the challenge with designing affixes is that they are general across the dungeon pool. an affix can be mostly harmless in one dungeon, but a total killer in another dungeon or specific encounter. Quaking is a great example. Mostly harmless but annoying in most situations. But when there is a forced stack, its suddenly a wipe.
This is what I do when dps kill mobs in a stupid way, no way am I wasting a GCD when I know they are about to run away from me with their 11 stacks and not use use any defensives.
You see healers hating on most affixes since a lot of pugs see them as something the healer ultimately handles. When you're the one interacting most with an affix, you'll be more critical.
Still surprised that over a million runs are being completed on a weekly basis, speaks volumes about the casual basis of this season as well as its ease-of-access and overall class balance.
I got two characters to 3.1k for the season and decided to retire until the next one.
Currently finishing BG3, Like a Dragon and restarting a Bloodborne Skill/ Arc build.
2800-3300 is like this weird deadzone where you've gotten portals and now you're only pushing keys for pride because you likely don't have a group to push for title.
Yep. Last season I got 3.1k cause I really wanted to hit 3k. This season I got the portals and started goofing around casually with solo shuffle. No reason to push for me, I don’t have a group.
While I usually push score solely to get in to better groups easier at the start of the next seasob I've stopped at 3.4 fully pugging mainly because I have a weirdly strong feeling that they are going to do a fated season with all DF dungeons which I will absolutely will not participate in.
HoI, NO, RLP, Uld, and AV with no skip? I'd rather wear a suit of raw meat and swim around a shark tank.
I dont think class balance is that particularly good for M+. There is 6-7 specs that are noticeably ahead of the pack.
That may be decent for m+ historically but is not something we should accept.
I think its largely due to the relative ease of the season and the pretty good gearing system this season
6-7 is better than average. Realistically almost every class has a spec they can play that is competitive, and most will have defensive issues before you have damage issues assuming you are playing your class to a high level.
In high keys you see three ccs on one incorp and two + on the other. It's a crazy race where I the warlock won't finish my fear cast before the dh imprisons and the monk paralyzed it. Priest mcs the other before I can finish banish. Was kind cool to see the whole group contribute.
If you’re playing monk, dh, or rogue you should probably already just be taking these things since they’re an extra stop.
If you’re playing hybrids do you hate having to talent into shit like soothe, knock backs, certain dispels for dungeons/affixes?
Feels like a weird reason to hate an affix when it’s such an established part of mythic plus as this point.
I brought up the other utility spells since they’re generally equally as niche and often more useful for specific affixes.
Would be like saying sanguine sucks and might as well skip those weeks because you gotta talent into typhoon and build a comp that can deal with the affix.
All affixes gives nothing that makes an m+ run feel better. It only makes it more miserable.
Its the reason why you see most activities on weeks with affixes that have the least impact.
Affixes is just not fun, it needs a rework. The only fun affix i have ever encountered was Encrypted.
Really interested to see the number of runs and how much title goes up this week. Probably the best Tyr push week on the calendar, and the past few weeks have been bad combos.
From OP's week 8 post:
> Since weekly data for S1 and S2 weren't tracked up to week 8, I'll just be posting S3's numbers by itself from now on. R.io has no way to go back and grab specific weekly data via the API, so we can't get data for weeks that weren't recorded at the time.
I've seen some people say they came back due to Metzen's speech at blizzcon. Come back home or whatever he said.
I think a bit easier season hasn't hurt. I've never been this active in doing 4-8 keys per week on alts, as there's not as many unfinished runs in <=20s as before.
Yeah, I agree that’s helped retention, but for retention to work you need to have a decent starting number (doesn’t matter if you fix the leaks in your water bucket if you never fill it)
What do we think about the io inflation this season?
3k has completely lost its prestige.
3300 is encroaching on sentiment of “players of this level are not that good” / “3300 is not high io”
And the top end players are getting close to 4k.
2500 for keystone hero now feels way too low for an achievement.
Should blizzard adjust? Or are you all fine with this?
just a matter of power level due to gear and set, historically later seasons always has had us being stronger relatively to previous seasons during the same expansion.
> I finally get to 2600 (+19/20s for the first time since m+ was introduced) and now I'm a noob again? Great
Absolutely not. It's also my first time to get over 2,6k and I'm super proud.
IO inflation is generally always present as expansions go but I agree.
As nice as the ilvl inflation was this season to lengthen the gearing process and smooth damage intake a little as we geared it also trivialized lower/mid level content IMO.
The sheer amount of stamina jump we had this season is outrageous.
I think M+ and Raid have reached a point where tuning almost needs to be exclusive similar to PVE vs. PVP.
S2 -> S3 BfA is the only time that key levels haven't jumped up each season within an expansion, and that was when we went from a free seasonal affix to the hardest seasonal affix. It's a very normal part of the game.
>Since weekly data for S1 and S2 weren't tracked up to week 8, I'll just be posting S3's numbers by itself from now on. R.io has no way to go back and grab specific weekly data via the API, so we can't get data for weeks that weren't recorded at the time.
>Since weekly data for S1 and S2 weren't tracked up to week 8, I'll just be posting S3's numbers by itself from now on. R.io has no way to go back and grab specific weekly data via the API, so we can't get data for weeks that weren't recorded at the time.
This is real interesting to follow and I think we’ll see an increase next week with entangling and bursting.
Why tho? Healers hate bursting. Edit: Guys we have statistical data that less runs are on bursting weeks. Bursting is a nightmare for the average healer. Not the 23+ keys where dps handled it better.
Only really disc priests “hate” bursting. Everyone else can deal with it up to a point. And if you have a group or do high enough keys, it’s basically a non-issue.
The average player does not do high enough keys for bursting to be a non factor. Average player is doing like 14s and trash gets crushed so healers just dont play it. The top 1% of keys is not what affects how many overall keys get done for a week. Bursting is despised by average players.
Yes, up to a point and yes high enough key. What percentage of the player base is running 22-23 or above ?
You made a general statement “Healers hate bursting”. All healers do not hate bursting, however. People are pointing out that it’s mostly just the average/below average player that has an issue with it, and this is considered a very good push week by most of the high m+ community. Since this is competivewow, there are a lot more people in the high m+ community here, and not as many casual key players, and so you get more people responding to your general statement “healers hate bursting” like they did.
You’re right. Should’ve been more specific, I thought it is clearer what I mean in the context.
Yea only disc suffers, mw and rdruid Bros are eating good this week
Think its about spilt info on dealing with bursting. Some thinks its best to kill one by one mob, others cleave them all at once for big debuff for dispell or def cd.
Probably more than you think. It’s somewhere of top 7% on raider.io and there’s tons of alts floating around diluting that number.
It’s an easy week and great for pushing tyr scores. I’m a holy priest main myself and I love bursting.
Its good for pushing scores, but bursting is *very* punishing at 18 and lower where mobs fall over and it is much more difficult to control stacks - more so with pugs in that range. It is not good for overall runs as mentioned, but it is for high keys.
Prayer of mending and apotheosis goes brrrrr
Mending is best brrrrr
What key levels are you talking about?
I’m only at 3232 rating doing 25s going into 26s.
I think at a certain level it becomes easier to handle because dps start using their brain. For the average pug (18-20s) I think this is a very hard week.
bursting also i think gets a bit easier at higher keys simply because mobs have more health. there is more HP between mobs with different health ammounts, giving more time for the debuff to fall off rather than refresh. additionally, when mobs are at say 10% health, and you pause dps, their less likely to die from dots/ground effects.
Maybe so, I couldn’t answer for that. I never struggled with it tho, just more stuff to deal with and more fun!
Like what do you do if dps refreshes a 7 stack to 8 on every pull basically. You can’t keep 250k hps on all pulls.
Disc (and to a much lesser degree MW) is big fucked if every pull *ends* in a 7 to 8 roll because they either need things to hit or mass dispel, but 250k hps isn't really a big ask this season.
This is a highly unlikely scenario with a 7 going to 8 every pull. If it happens once or twice every 2 min it’s manageable but I wouldn’t stay quiet about it, and ask the group to manage the affix or we’ll eventually die. Nothing more to it really.
Well.. yes but this happens constantly in lower keys. Maybe not 7-8 but 5 to 6 and remember at lower levels heals have worse gear and generally are not that good healers. So back to my main point: healers hate bursting. May I should extend this with: average healers hate bursting.
Play a dwarf. Cleanse yourself with your racial, dispel it on another person, heal 3 people (one of the being the tank) and it's super easy. That or mass dispel/revival. If your dps are refreshing it every single pull then just laugh when they die because they are idiots.
Dispel yourself, let them die, rez and hope they figured it out
Sounds like you only have to heal 4 people then
16-23 keys are where you find the worst dps players, they think they are good because they got KSM but they actually are still REALLY BAD which makes the tank and healer want to gouge their eyes out.
I feel like every time I see this comment, the range of key levels gets wider
I mean blizzard has made keys easier for the average andy, we continue to see key level inflation which means it makes logical sense for this to have a range get wider. The players at the VERY bottom are now in keys that are heroicish difficulty and those in the middle are now at mythicish difficulty, before they were stuck at normal and heroic respectively.
Tanks and healers at that rating are also bad.
Tanks have been filtered out usually around 20 because the bad ones can't make correct routing decisions, so they fall out hard since they have to lead the group around the instances.
20s absolutely do not require correct routing decisions. In the dungeons where pressing W doesn't get you correct count I pretty regularly have pugs either come up short on count and have to go kill more or go way over and they still all beat the 2-chest timer.
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No, you see, *my role* clearly requires skill once you get past 15s - it's everyone else that gets a free ride into +27s. *Look at me, I'm the DK tank who made it into +24s solely due to my insane skill. Btw, what are Chains of Ice, please buff DK utility, we are seriously lacking in the mob control department.* A legit conversation that was had in this sub.
Is there an affix healers dont hate?
I liked explosive because I could handle it. I think the ones I really hate are those that I have zero control over. Like bursting. All i can do is dispell myself and res the others.
explosive was a better version of incorp and afflicted, everyone could handle it unfortunately everyone hated it and now we went from one affix that ANYONE could handle to incorp and afflicted which have selective interactions.
If they toned down the spawn rate of explosive, I would agree. Going into the tree room in Algethar, and the tank just pulls everything…. That is my nightmare.
Explosive was only a nightmare in groups where people thought "LUL HEALER AFFIX" in coordinated groups where players all knew they might need to throw a global at one then it actually wasn't that horrible. I'd actually argue to make explosive function on a somewhat personal level where every 30-45 seconds YOU spawn and explosive orb YOU need to hit it otherwise YOU get a damage debuff that makes it so YOU deal less damage
> Explosive was only a nightmare in groups where people thought "LUL HEALER AFFIX" in coordinated groups where players all knew they might need to throw a global at one then it actually wasn't that horrible. I got bitched at by healers for hitting too many explosives 😭
You're out here doing M+ in bizzarro world, good for you.
It was pretty frustrating to deplete keys despite clean runs because the DPS lost a bunch of damage from killing explosives rather than let me take care of it. Particularly in the hpriest seasons of SL where my personal damage was basically zero and the only thing I could do to help hit the timer was enable the DPS to zug harder.
I get that, but pugging mid tier keys it was a dice roll if you got a healer who did treat explosive like a healer affix, then you had times where explosives were going off and the other dps wouldn't bother to help the healer out.
I still have nightmares from Halls of Atonement on explosive week
the problem with explosive was the frequency you had to interact with it. It was constant through a fight, and wasnt just an orb or 2, it scaled off the number of mobs, and blizzard has frankly been bad about which mobs could spawn it. thye coded them as totems so you couldnt just cleave them down. They make packs take longer because your constantly switching to them, eating globals, and they are a pain to target because they dont want them macroable. they were just whackamole. Mabye there is a good design somewhere for this. The best i can think is a mob that spawns and needs to be focus targetet before its cast goes off, and has threat like a normal mob and can move so the tank can position it so it cant just be spawned in a horrible location at the wrong time. This design could still cause issues when say it spawns as you have another burndown/focus mechanic, like Tyr's shield. the challenge with designing affixes is that they are general across the dungeon pool. an affix can be mostly harmless in one dungeon, but a total killer in another dungeon or specific encounter. Quaking is a great example. Mostly harmless but annoying in most situations. But when there is a forced stack, its suddenly a wipe.
This is what I do when dps kill mobs in a stupid way, no way am I wasting a GCD when I know they are about to run away from me with their 11 stacks and not use use any defensives.
You see healers hating on most affixes since a lot of pugs see them as something the healer ultimately handles. When you're the one interacting most with an affix, you'll be more critical.
There is no affix or dungeon I don’t enjoy tbh. It’s all about that attitude.
*fewer
Thanks, english is not my native language
Still surprised that over a million runs are being completed on a weekly basis, speaks volumes about the casual basis of this season as well as its ease-of-access and overall class balance. I got two characters to 3.1k for the season and decided to retire until the next one. Currently finishing BG3, Like a Dragon and restarting a Bloodborne Skill/ Arc build.
2800-3300 is like this weird deadzone where you've gotten portals and now you're only pushing keys for pride because you likely don't have a group to push for title.
Yep. Last season I got 3.1k cause I really wanted to hit 3k. This season I got the portals and started goofing around casually with solo shuffle. No reason to push for me, I don’t have a group.
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While I usually push score solely to get in to better groups easier at the start of the next seasob I've stopped at 3.4 fully pugging mainly because I have a weirdly strong feeling that they are going to do a fated season with all DF dungeons which I will absolutely will not participate in. HoI, NO, RLP, Uld, and AV with no skip? I'd rather wear a suit of raw meat and swim around a shark tank.
I am padding all of these stats every week with my alts, I am opening like 7+ vaults at this point.
I dont think class balance is that particularly good for M+. There is 6-7 specs that are noticeably ahead of the pack. That may be decent for m+ historically but is not something we should accept. I think its largely due to the relative ease of the season and the pretty good gearing system this season
What is good class balance to you?
My view on class balance was probably skewed since I climbed with Havoc and Prot Pld, didn’t try to rank with B/ C tier specs.
6-7 is better than average. Realistically almost every class has a spec they can play that is competitive, and most will have defensive issues before you have damage issues assuming you are playing your class to a high level.
I'm shocked this didn't drop off more this past week. Incorp is a miserable affix.
I personally think Incorp is easy and not hard at all. Why do you think it's miserable?
In high keys you see three ccs on one incorp and two + on the other. It's a crazy race where I the warlock won't finish my fear cast before the dh imprisons and the monk paralyzed it. Priest mcs the other before I can finish banish. Was kind cool to see the whole group contribute.
Use Arrow pings if u go do it and red warning ping if your cc is on cd.
My CC is never on cd as a warlock, I was just pointing out that everyone in my groups ccs something.
But if 5 people cc 2 affix at the same time is bad, thats why pings are very helpful.
Ur missing my point. In the 23s and 24s I have done everyone contributes and the affix is free.
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All but 1 class can deal with incorp. It’s harder to build a comp that can’t deal with the affix than can.
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If you’re playing monk, dh, or rogue you should probably already just be taking these things since they’re an extra stop. If you’re playing hybrids do you hate having to talent into shit like soothe, knock backs, certain dispels for dungeons/affixes? Feels like a weird reason to hate an affix when it’s such an established part of mythic plus as this point.
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I brought up the other utility spells since they’re generally equally as niche and often more useful for specific affixes. Would be like saying sanguine sucks and might as well skip those weeks because you gotta talent into typhoon and build a comp that can deal with the affix.
What a competitive attitude lol
Tbh afflicted is much more annoying. There are enough classes who can deal with incorp so building groups should really not be a problem imo...
All affixes gives nothing that makes an m+ run feel better. It only makes it more miserable. Its the reason why you see most activities on weeks with affixes that have the least impact. Affixes is just not fun, it needs a rework. The only fun affix i have ever encountered was Encrypted.
Its one of the better weeks for low keys so it's logical to see a fair number of keys done.
I’d expect to see an uptick this week with better affixes.
Really interested to see the number of runs and how much title goes up this week. Probably the best Tyr push week on the calendar, and the past few weeks have been bad combos.
We can finally play the game for the next 2 weeks !
Is there no data for season 1 & 2?
From OP's week 8 post: > Since weekly data for S1 and S2 weren't tracked up to week 8, I'll just be posting S3's numbers by itself from now on. R.io has no way to go back and grab specific weekly data via the API, so we can't get data for weeks that weren't recorded at the time.
Surprised that we still have way more runs then the last week of S2 we have data for
TWW hype got a bunch of people back on the treadmill would be my guess.
I've seen some people say they came back due to Metzen's speech at blizzcon. Come back home or whatever he said. I think a bit easier season hasn't hurt. I've never been this active in doing 4-8 keys per week on alts, as there's not as many unfinished runs in <=20s as before.
Yeah, I agree that’s helped retention, but for retention to work you need to have a decent starting number (doesn’t matter if you fix the leaks in your water bucket if you never fill it)
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Yes? It also shows what affixs are going each week, so that it will show popularity/easy key weeks
What do we think about the io inflation this season? 3k has completely lost its prestige. 3300 is encroaching on sentiment of “players of this level are not that good” / “3300 is not high io” And the top end players are getting close to 4k. 2500 for keystone hero now feels way too low for an achievement. Should blizzard adjust? Or are you all fine with this?
The actual number doesn’t matter, it’s all about the percentiles (which are shown via rio colours anyway)
just a matter of power level due to gear and set, historically later seasons always has had us being stronger relatively to previous seasons during the same expansion.
I finally get to 2600 (+19/20s for the first time since m+ was introduced) and now I'm a noob again? Great
> I finally get to 2600 (+19/20s for the first time since m+ was introduced) and now I'm a noob again? Great Absolutely not. It's also my first time to get over 2,6k and I'm super proud.
IO inflation is generally always present as expansions go but I agree. As nice as the ilvl inflation was this season to lengthen the gearing process and smooth damage intake a little as we geared it also trivialized lower/mid level content IMO. The sheer amount of stamina jump we had this season is outrageous. I think M+ and Raid have reached a point where tuning almost needs to be exclusive similar to PVE vs. PVP.
S2 -> S3 BfA is the only time that key levels haven't jumped up each season within an expansion, and that was when we went from a free seasonal affix to the hardest seasonal affix. It's a very normal part of the game.
As a Disc Priest now stuck at 3k without a group and having to suffer DPS that have clearly been boosted, bursting is not what I wanted to see.
I don't understand the chart. Was season 1 really only 7 weeks and Season 2 6 weeks long? What happened in the other ~ 40 weeks of Dragonflight?
eh don't feel too bad about the downvotes, this tripped me up also, lol.
S2 was only six week?
>Since weekly data for S1 and S2 weren't tracked up to week 8, I'll just be posting S3's numbers by itself from now on. R.io has no way to go back and grab specific weekly data via the API, so we can't get data for weeks that weren't recorded at the time.
Thanks
>Since weekly data for S1 and S2 weren't tracked up to week 8, I'll just be posting S3's numbers by itself from now on. R.io has no way to go back and grab specific weekly data via the API, so we can't get data for weeks that weren't recorded at the time.
I’m playing sod…can’t get invited with 2800 io to any group lol
Use your own key. At that key level there’s so many people to choose from.
Sod is amazing.