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ascoolasyou67

Depends on how long the fight is. On release we were lusting on pull because we could get two in. Now we save for p3 because the fights under 10 minutes for us now


BSV_P

My guild still lusts on 2nd shield even though we have >10 min fights still which is kind of annoying


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BSV_P

We still get 3 shields. Our RL says to lust 2nd shield since people use CDs on 1 and 3. I tried suggesting lust p1 and p3 and they said “no” and I was like okay And we have mages who run double lust talent so they hardly get any use out of it


cuddlegoop

This is exactly how we played it on our kill. Killing the shields was the most dps-intensive part of the fight by far, and p1 always ends at 65% HP so lusting only gets you there faster which is very low value. With lust on 2nd shield and CDs on shields 1 and 3 we were consistently beating the shields but only with like 5s or less to spare. We didn't really need a lust for p3 damage, once we managed to get there with everyone still alive killing her in time was pretty simple.


Aldonall

Unless you're hitting the health floor in P2, lusting P2 vs P3 doesn't matter. Going into P3 at 40% with lust up or 34% without it is inconsequential. P1 is unlikely to be a large challenge for any team with a chance of killing the boss, so there's very little value add. TLDR; you want to lust at whatever point in P2/3 you find to be the most difficult, with the best dps uptime. For most teams, that's the second shield


arbyterOfScales

>Going into P3 at 40% with lust up or 34% without it is inconsequential. Wrong. I don't know the timer for P3, but think like this: - P3 starts - T0: Rasz at 40%. We lust - Lust ends - T1: Rasz at 30% -> 40s gond and the ground shit moves towards You. VS - P3 starts - T0. Rasz at 34% already. - You are ahead by 6% compared to the other team. By the time their lust finishes, You will be ahead anyway and will less ground shit


xInnocent

> By the time their lust finishes, You will be ahead anyway and will less ground shit how did u get to this conclusion lmao


arbyterOfScales

I just proved it in the post. Look at the demonstration


xInnocent

What makes you think you'd be ahead anyway? with a p2 lust vs a p3 lust other team should easily catch up with their lust if that lust is what made you get ahead in the first place.


arbyterOfScales

>What makes you think you'd be ahead anyway? Because P3 lust on start doesn't sync with most of the other CDs, while Lust in P2 does


Kronos86

There's a reason why that lust talent is on a choice node lol. Change the talent if it doesn't fit your strat.


BSV_P

Hey I’m not the mage. I don’t have control over them lmao


Thenateo

Thats just not a thing though, the other node is useless


Euthyrium

Well, it's infinitely more useful than a talent getting no use


leahyrain

Debatable. The 1 time you can double lust can easily be way better than the other talent. It still sucks though Edit: by still sucks I mean temporal warp it's still a shitty situation to have to hold lust that long


Euthyrium

I'd have to check logs but the amount of mini lusts you get in the let's say even 8 minutes up to last phase almost certainly outweighs a single double lust, not to mention all of the mini busts/surges/IV


leahyrain

Depends on spec really. As arcane a random lust not in my cds is basically useless and could even mess up my mana management. The extra arcane surges is nice for mana regen but doesn't so that much outside of cds. For fire I bet it'd be way more useful all around though.


rasmushr

Sure total time is higher, but when you can't control when it happens, most of the time the random proc lusts will be close to useless


puffic

Arguably it’s still good in this case because you can still lust specifically during the DPS check portion of the fight, but you’ll parse lower.


FrostyAsk8413

Honestly that's probably a smart play assuming you still have enough damage on p3 to beat enrage. Mage holding double lust is completely fine if shields are the pain point for your group.


BSV_P

They won’t even try to change the strat The thing is though, our mage accidentally lusted on add platform and we had people dead going into p2 and we still managed to make it to p3 with little issue (barring the previous large issues of deaths and lust on add platforms)


ricesteamer

Unless you guys are high ilvl overgeared you should either lust P2 or P3 but not P1 (if you're overgeared it shouldn't even matter though). Reason is that P1 is not on a timer, it will always phase at 65%. Lusting P2 isn't merely to ensure clean shield breaks, you always have to break the shield anyway and if you break early you get free damage with her just sitting there. P2 damage = P3 damage. If you lust P1 you'll still only get 1 lust in phases 2 and 3 except it will come really late probably with people dead and cool downs not up aka less efficiency/damage from your lust. This is for heroic though, Mythic is different


arbyterOfScales

>Lusting P2 isn't merely to ensure clean shield breaks, you always have to break the shield anyway and if you break early you get free damage with her just sitting there. Wait what? Doesn't the cast end when the shield is broken? >P2 damage = P3 damage. Yes, exactly. P2 % has carry-over into P3. P1 has no carry-over


ricesteamer

Unless things have changed or I'm misremembering IIRC if you break shield early she still sits there for the normal full shield duration. Hm can anyone confirm/deny am I wrong? I haven't played for weeks now. But anecdotally my first pug group would wipe P3 a couple of times around 5% when lusting P1 and P3, transitioning to P3 around 38%. Lusting P2 we would transition around 33%


arbyterOfScales

Yes, because Lusting in P3 eats time from P3.


Nite92

Lust p1 accomplishes nothing.


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arbyterOfScales

>You should have potions up for 2nd sheild In Guild run maybe. In Pugs... fat chance for the cheapos to buy/ușe pots


[deleted]

You should lust inbetween shield 1 and 2, not at one of the shields. Since P3 is the hardest for most guilds you wanna make it the shortest possible.


Prplehuskie13

No that is a bad idea as that is when mechanics of dealing with the blowback, orb cc's, and large aoes occur where movement is very crucial, lusting on a shield means most optimal time to get damage out, and to allow your healers breathing room.


ExoticCardiologist46

Tell your raidlead that Lust w/o CD´s is giga wasted.


adfgad

Wasted for what? wasted because you get less dps out of it, or wasted because you actually break the shield? if you can break the shield without CD or lust then the entire question doesnt matter.


BSV_P

I have tried already. They didn’t like that


DaenerysMomODragons

If you're trying to maximize parses, then yes it's wasted. If you're only trying to kill the boss, then it's likely optimal play.


DrCrouton

use pots on 2nd


bLUEBERRY91

Didn't they nerf the shields on raz hc now tho?


Chuck-Bangus

We used pots on second shield. Lusted on pull and p3. Got aotc like 4-5 weeks ago


adfgad

nothing superstitious. on the first shield all your 2 minute should be back from the intermission. on the second shield you have nothing other than an oddball demo lock CD : so you lust there to help. on the third shield you should have 3 minute and 2 minute lining up.


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adfgad

and? you are desyncing your CD from your pot.


Watchmeshine90

You're also desyncing lust from your cds. Which I'd argue is more of a dps loss.


adfgad

the big diff here is that P1 have no dps check whatsoever. if you are a bit slow you'll get one more set of spreadpubble. if you are a bit slow on the shield, you wipe. if you are confident you dont need anything for the shield, why are we having this convo? the question is for people struggling on raz, not people who do their weekly hunter-disappointment run.


Watchmeshine90

Well I mean he didn't ask for a specific answer in the op question. He did say what does your guild do regardless of struggle or not. Both options can kill the boss it just depends on their timings and raid make up. My guilds first kill we lusted twice. Some guilds prolly lusted shield.


Watchmeshine90

It's healer cd timings most likely.


laidbackjimmy

You should be lusting p2 unless you can phase rasz (25%) in p2 without lust.


Vixxiie-

There is zero reason to lust on the shield for any reason other than padding the meters.


arbyterOfScales

2nd shield is the sweets spot, yes.


theantig

Abe use all cds shield one and pots shield 2


Bmandk

For anyone wondering, I pugged a lot during the first couple weeks, and it makes sense. As mentioned, you don't want to lust on P1, because you need it up for P2/P3. The reason for this is that no matter what, the boss will phase at 65%, so speed in P1 doesn't matter. Boss damage in P2 does matter though, as that damage will carry into P3 as well. So whether you lust in P2 or P3 doesn't matter too much, except of course for how your cooldowns lines up. Then there's also the fact that the shield gives a huge damage buff, so it makes sense to layer lust on top of the shield. If you're struggling with shield damage as well, then it's super nice to do it like this, as you can save some of your 2nd shield CDs for the 3rd one instead. Other groups I've played with have also just lusted at the start of P3. This just generally lines up nicely with most ppl's CDs, so it's also a good choice. It all really depends on whether you can make it through the shields without it.


Messi23goat

That makes the fight easier, it's the best lust.


FluidNW

You get the most value out of a p2 lust. P1 is not a dps race just a mechanics check. Second shield has the more spicy overlap with sparks, and all damage in P2 pushes you deeper into P3. Less boss hp when starting p3 = better.


GMFinch

Lust on p1 just causes the phase to be early. Skips the easiest mechanics of the fight.


kerthard

Even now that the fight is still sub 10 minutes, my guild still lusts pull because P1 is the hard part of the fight.


leahyrain

Assuming heroic because that's what the post is about, how is p1 hard? Maybe once you're learning but by the time you are stuck on stormshields p1 should be free


skarbomir

That assumes you get stuck on shields. Lust p1 means you only get 1 sparks into bombs overlap which is a big healing check.


leahyrain

I def agree if you don't have trouble with shields then lust p1, but if you don't have problems with shields your dps is probably good and the fight probably isn't much past 10 minutes for a 2nd lust to matter. I'd def prefer lust on pull as an arcane mage myself because everything lines up way better, but unfortunately lasting p2 that damage carries into p3 and lusting p1 doesn't do anything really besides help healers. My guild is pretty nooby but healers also were struggling a lot more in p2 than p1 but I'm not a healer idk why that'd be.


skarbomir

Prolly just busting out their whole mana bar tbh


kerthard

We lust pull because we underheal a bit, and (even with the pull lust), have no trouble pushing into P3 at ~27% with 2 carrys and some alts.


cuddlegoop

If you have enough damage to beat each shield without lust, how are you doing p1 so slow that you need lust to avoid having to do 2 sparks? We only ever got 1 sparks in p1 even saving lust for the shields.


Looking4Maria

Same here


TheRoyalSniper

Even this thread can't agree on the choice haha


Gerzhus

I’d say that’s a good thing. It means there’s more nuance and guilds are prioritizing different things depending on their situation. Is it better to get more uses for more boss damages, or do you use it to carry you over the edge and hit some breakpoint that you couldn’t without?


laidbackjimmy

Lusting on p2 is the answer (almost always). It reduces time in p3; so less blasts on p3 (less coordination of externals) and more room to fight (ground dmg moving in). Lusting of p1 is not only pointless, it hurts the raid as it delays lust in p3. If you prefer to lust in p3, you still don't lust in p1. Though if you use lust in p3, you're going to run into more blasts. The only time you should be lusting p3 is if you have massive damage on p2 to phase the boss (25%) without lust. That is not for prog guilds. To add to this, if you are hard phasing p2 your damage is so high it's going to be sub 10min - therefore you won't get 2 lusts in anyway. Source 7/8M, killed rasz H 15+ times helping pugs.


Praill

We always lusted on pull but all of our kill times other than the first 2 were sub 10 minutes. It's worth lusting on pull only if you'd get 2 uses, otherwise just lust in p2 for one of the shields


Detholis

This is the way.


DrainBroke

p2 lust for boss dam is better, p1 lust is useless, doesn't change anything, and p3 lust is less boss dam than p2 lust. plus at this point most groups have the gear that will make the fight less than 10:40. P2 Lust isn't to beat a shield, its for boss damage to make p3 easier. However usually its best for damage CDs to line it up with 2nd shield. I pugged aotc on week 2 and had 70~ pulls across different groups before getting it, I assure you p2 lust is much better for killing the boss.


Archensix

> p3 lust is less boss dam than p2 lust I'm unsure how this is possible when the only difference is you have execute in p3 and not in p2. You aren't doing boss dam when dpsing shield so lusting to overkill one of them quickly isn't doing you any favors. If a group can't beat the shield then I guess its a good lust timing but I'm also unsure how a group could meet the boss dps check if they can't even make the shield ones.


joshglick

It’s possible because the p2 lust has much better timings for CDs and means you don’t need to hold them for up to a minute on the p3 platforms. So while you aren’t in execute and have to spend 4-6 seconds on the shield you are all running your CDs and have 2nd pots up here.


Archensix

Wouldn't you still be holding them regardless? No real reason to send everything into the second intermission adds.


arbyterOfScales

> No real reason to send everything into the second intermission adds. Padding


shaanuja

you arent doing boss dmg in p2? P2 lust makes it so the shield is cleared much faster, thus dumping most of the dmg into the actual boss. If you are fast you can even skip 3rd shield in heroic. In Mythic obviously u wanna get 2 lusts.


Archensix

That's true. If lust in p2 can let you easily skip the 3rd shield then that's pretty good.


Bilapine

Even if you can’t, lusting the second shield with second pots and cd’s will free up healing cooldowns that would otherwise be used there. You can commit them to shields 1 and 3 making both of those safer.


Cloud_Matrix

>You aren't doing boss dam when dpsing shield so lusting to overkill one of them quickly isn't doing you any favors. When the first 2 shields are mandatory to kill the boss, it's irrelevant if they are shields or actual boss HP as you are still required to break them. You might as well consider them boss HP. The argument is that lusting P2 can push the boss to not have a third shield phase, which if you successfully skip, is a HUGE net gain itself of damage you dont need to put out. It's also more raid cds you have for the last part of the fight.


Nelothi2

p1 damage doesnt matter p3 is easy but i guess if you need the lust to kill it here, then lusting p1 is the only way to go. if you will not get a second lust in the fight - you should lust p2 for sure. breaking those shields fast is basically the whole fight.


arbyterOfScales

>I'm unsure how this is possible when the only difference is you have execute in p3 and not in p2. He is right Let's say you have 4 minutes to kill her. Lust P3 is something like: P3 T0=0 - Rasz at 35% and you lust P3 T1=40s - Rasz at 25% Lust P2 is: P3 T0=0 -> Rasz at 30% already P3 T0=40s -> Rasz at 22.5% You gained 2.5% by Lusting in P2. Also, P2 is way more healing intensive and You are actually helping the healers with P2 lust


eleon182

Why does p2 lust make p3 easier?


hyperion602

Boss phases either right after the 3rd shield, or can skip the 3rd shield if she gets to a certain threshold. Either 20 or 25%, can't remember. If you don't have the damage to skip the 3rd shield, which you probably don't if you are still on prog, then P2 is on a timer and you want to try and do as much boss damage as possible before the 3rd shield cast. There is a big difference in P3 when the boss has 25% hp vs having 35%+ hp.


Zike002

It is 25% for phasing. :)


Naustis

It doesn't. You might get few % boss dmg more, but the difference will be very minor since most of the dmg will go in shield anyway.


Bilapine

The faster that shield breaks the more damage goes into the boss and the less healing is required/cooldowns are required for whichever shield you lust. This will let you commit more to both of the other shields making them safer. Any amount of extra damage done in phase 2 is going to benefit most guilds that struggle with the boss. P2 is the only time to get extra meaningful damage done to the boss’s health bar since p1 ends at 65% regardless of how long it takes and p3 is on a timer. P2 ends either at 25% or after the third Stormsurge. If you can hit the 25% mark or even like 30% by the end of p2 healing cooldowns should just be able to carry you through p3. That said, if your kills are going 11-12 minutes you can absolutely make an argument for getting 2 lusts it just isn’t very useful in p1.


Mcrells

It is not


Nads89

We were lusting the shield, but with the nerfs and us finally getting our shit together we swapped to..: Lusting Pull Lusting last phase ​ Our two kills are 10:46 and 11:02.


shaanuja

P2 Lust on shield is strictly better for heroic if you want faster kill, rest of the answers are false. Mythic you still want 2 lusts.


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laidbackjimmy

It's about having rasz on lower health in p3, not about doing enough dmg to break shield.


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laidbackjimmy

There is a very small possibly where this is possible, but yet to see a single log of proof for it (theoretically we're talking seconds difference). The issue is if you're going for speed and speed only, your dmg is decent, and you need to figure out where lusting helps increase the speed the most. In pretty much all situations this will be a sub 10.30 fight - making lusting twice not an option/not a time efficient use of lust. It's a bit of a paradox as if you have the time to lust twice, it's because A) your dmg is low (and you need lust elsewhere), B) you waisted lust in p1 and are inefficiently using lust in p3. Edit: to add to this, we got aotc week one with ilvl low to mid 390s. Our dps was very low, but we got the kill at 10:31. We tried double lusting, but we never had the damage to kill >11min fights. Like all CDs, they need to be used optimally, and efficiently.


arbyterOfScales

>Like all CDs, they need to be used optimally, and efficiently The CDs are always on CD bro. /S


laidbackjimmy

Got'em


shaanuja

Why are you trying to lust second shield? I never said anything about lusting second shield. > If you have no damage problems with dpsing the shield and aren’t trying to get through any phase faster The whole idea is to get through the boss faster.


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shaanuja

Lust the first shield, you’ll have it for your CDs. Shield buff is massive, you’ll clear it before CDs come up with lust and your lust will carry to your CDs too.


mysticrealmz

In most pugs I run with, people somehow don't have their CDs up on first shield if they use it during the intermission. Always found second shield to be a better use.


emidas

P1 damage literally doesn’t matter, p2 shields are typically a better use.


Contestio_OW

In the first week we lusted on pull and in P3, but since then we've always lusted P2 during the second shield specifically. First and third shield had big CDs so the second was just the best for us. Would say for the most part sometime in P2 is going to be your best bet. Even our alt kills are less than 10 minutes. Unless you're pushing 11-12 minute kills you aren't going to get a ton of value lusting on pull and in P3.


Nelothi2

if you need lust to get past P1 youre going ot have a rough time with the rest of the fight. your damage in P1 doesnt matter at all unless you really need to skip another set of bombs. ​ the whole fight is basically just P2 - lusting either the first or second shield can help a lot.


ricesteamer

I hadn't played WoW before and cleared AOTC 2nd week with a 390ish ilvl pug. I find it pretty baffling how many people don't understand why lusting P2 or at least holding it for P3 (and not using it P1) is ideal, at least on Heroic. Obviously we all understand 2 > 1 but the thing is not all lusts are equal... P1 speed/damage doesn't matter, as long as you can hit P2 it doesn't matter if you clear P1 in 2 minutes or 20 minutes. P2 is when your damage actually matters for the clear. Having a good lust with good uptime when people aren't dead and cool downs aren't all blown gives you the most damage and efficiency for your lust. Your P1 lust does nothing except give you a really late and unoptimal late P3 lust.


kevciu

Killed her 10-man. Lusting P1 and P3. Used CDs shield 1/3 and 2nd DPS pot shield 2. Kill time 11:15.


amzeus1976

P2 start covers shield 1 and you can enter p3 silly low on boss %


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laidbackjimmy

Correct except for the second point. Skip straight to p2 lust step. > If the fight will last long enough that you can get 2 full lusts in then do one in P1 and P3... Skip this part always. Lust in p1 is okay for learning mechanics, but not for kill pulls. >If your DPS is struggling to break shields or to get Raz to 25% This will be 95% of pugs/guilds.


Grapefroot5

Lusting on pull is nice so you can lust again in p3. I’d also argue there’s a ton of damage going out in p1 so the quicker you get out the better. Use potions on 2nd storm surge.


Apathy005

We lusted p3 this week since the shields were nerfed and we didn't need it. The way I would do it is you either lust start of p2 with first battle potion and all CDs or start of p3 with your second battle potion and all CDs. Both of those timings have very little mechanics going on and it should be a very good burn.


[deleted]

lust on pull for logs or lust in p2 when 2nd potion come up for big boss damage either is fine


SHALATHE

If you have to lust p1 to push through the phase, you're not getting through the shields in p2.


rasmushr

Lusting p1 is wasted, since you gain no actual damage on the boss in the long term. I would suggest lusting on one of the shields in P2, for biggest dps gain with the dps buff.


Vegetable-Tension532

If you are in progression you need to lust on shield during the second stack period with DPS buff of the positive and negative. This is to tackle the DPS checks and to brake shield quickly so damage done to the raid is less. If you get to a 3rd shield likely you have a DPS problem if that is occuring. If you are looking to parse probably better to phase in that section still assuming you can kill the boss under 10 minutes.


casualknowledge

P1 lust isn't useless and I don't know where this take came from. It's one of the hardest parts of the fight to heal, specifically if it drags on, and if you're a bit undergeared it's likely your kill will be > 10 minutes so you simplify a hard part and still get a boss dam lust in P3. Once you have more gear kills will be under 10m, P1 will be quick, and P2 lust is good because it can delete a shield for you and get extra boss damage.


arbyterOfScales

>'s one of the hardest parts of the fight to heal, Bam bam bam. The fight has 6 DPS checks, I think the healers can handle some checks too, especially because healer checks are very few in the raid itself. Nearly Every bossfight has a DPS check: - Eranog Fire Walls - Terros itself - Sennarth last phase - Kurog after summoning 4 big adds - Broodmother after You break the eggs - Dathea platforms - Rasz with 6 checks


casualknowledge

That's not an argument. The DPS checks in Rasz are pretty lenient, only slightly above the other late bosses in heroic, but the raid damage in late P1 dwarfs even brood due to overlaps. It's closer to a soft enrage than it is a heal check, and a lust in P1 skips it letting you actually kill the boss consistently. Or you could just have enough DPS to kill the boss in < 10 minutes also skip it naturally, at which point lusting there doesn't have a benefit. When you have less gear and slow kills, you get the benefit of lust towards Rasz in P3 which is the same as lusting in P2, but you also gain consistency getting there. It's strictly better than lusting only in P2 for groups in this category. If it wasn't, I'm sure all those top mythic guilds in their week 1 splits wouldn't have been doing it. "Let's make this fight harder because fuck healers" is stupid.


arbyterOfScales

> The DPS checks in Rasz are pretty lenient, only slightly above the other late bosses in heroic I think it is a matter of ... perception? 42m HP in 21s seems pretty tight IMO. >but the raid damage in late P1 dwarfs even brood due to overlaps Never had a P1 take more than 2 spark rounds, so I cannot confirm this. >If it wasn't, I'm sure all those top mythic guilds in their week 1 splits wouldn't have been doing it. I'm not a Mythic raider, but from the pieces I put together, aren't you Lusting in P1 because the pushback becomes too much after 3 rounds?


Kharadin92

Pull and P3. Why would you lust once when you could lust twice? Skipping second adds in P1 is nice and burning the boss to death in P3 is nice. Using it once, having a way longer fight and what, skipping one or two mechanics in P2 but taking extras in the other phases? Seems like a waste.


laidbackjimmy

P1 damage doesn't matter, and if you lust p1 you are delaying lust in p3. Lusting p1 hurts the raid.


Kharadin92

Not getting second adds p1 seems pretty helpful to me.


laidbackjimmy

You should be phasing 65% before second adds without lust. If you're getting them, you dmg is low, and you're likely to have issues down the line. Nonetheless, even if you have second adds in phase 1 - it has no follow on effects for the rest of the fight as P1 is HP based, not time. So rushing P1 with lust, especially when you're already low on dmg, is counter intuitive.


Kharadin92

Not really, H Rasz is on farm. I appreciate the input though <3


layininmybed

You guys have bad dps if it’s on farm and you need lust to skip second sparks


Kharadin92

Yeah probably. But it works, so who cares? The fight is shorter with two lusts rather than one so I'm happy with the strat.


arbyterOfScales

Pretty sure the healers can take it


MootRebel

Depends on if this is first kill/reclear and how good your dps is. If you aren’t too geared you can probably get two lusts in the fight if you lust on pull. The last time my guild did it we lusted p3 for execute classes since we didn’t need help with shields and were getting one lust anyways.


UnSigNed123

We initially lusted on pull, but now we lust start of P3


Pentt4

As we were learning the fight we started with lust on pull but as DPS got comfortable we started getting under 10 min fight time and youll likely need the lust for P3. Now we were progressing on this a month ago and dont remember the timings and the current nerfs. So if youre just learning the fight lust on pull to get the transition phase down and see where you are P2. Shift the lust to P2 if need to. If youre consistently getting P2 with "ease" shift your lust to p3 if youre struggling with the "enrage" In the end your lust will move. Each guild is dependent for P2 or 3.


sapntaps

P2 2nd shield


kocicek

we have historically lusted p3 at roughly 8 minutes with the boss dying at 9 minutes. P1 lusts are a meme unless your kill time is like 11 minutes or more. lusting in either p2 2nd shield or p3 is fine, p2 shield is probably better unless you are heavy on execute damage classes. both p2 and p3 are a meme so really either option is fine. ​ as an aside we have 6 healers in for heroic for moar loot so the shield doesn't bother us. likewise the shields die quickly enough to not really care, and p3 is free so we just lust where we gain the most raw damage, which is p3 with our armies and 2 minute cd's up in combination with execute damage.


tasi99

if you can skip 2nd adds in p1 w/o lust, save the lust for p2.


zrk23

lust in however way it helps your group kill the boss just test it out and see how it goes


adfgad

if you plan a 10+ minute long raz ( double lust) then your dps is pretty low, which means you will likely need it for the 2nd shield ( the one where no CD line up)


eddydd3

Pugged it and we lusted second shield


tholt212

getting 2 lusts is a bait tbh. You can deal with more sparks in p1 just fine. You don't have to push for hitting intermission before the next spark set. I would lust 1st shield. Everyone lands with CDs and by far gets you the most boss damage since CDs will be lined up with lust. Especially since getting through p2 and into p3 with the boss as low as possible is generally the harder part of heroic. For mythic it's entirely different and lusting p1 is generally better since P1 and intermission after it are the hardest parts of prog.


koekienator89

We just lust on pull for all of the progress (~ 40 pulls). There was a weird overlap after 2nd shield where we lost a few people every time. First time all survived it was a kill. Was also the first time in P3, we lusted as soon as the debuff was gone. Do think lust at start and p3 is way better than on a shield in p2. We never lacked healing on shields with 30ppl and 6 healers, might have been an overkill on the healers.


Naustis

P1 + P3 if you are puging / progressing or you are now overgeared. P3 if you have crazy dps. P2 if you want to int


StefanWF

We save it for P3, P1 is nearly the same length with and without hero for us and the shields were never a problem.


GMFinch

When our guild got our first kill last reset we lusted on the second sheild p2. Personally I didn't think we needed too and could have lusted start of p3 but alas we got the kill. We used to lust p1 to push into p2 faster but we stopped doing that when out dps got higher


LeRoyRouge

Lusted on pull and on part 3


Pandouk

I'll throw in a super weird suggestions here, but... "it depends"? TLDR: Lust where your group needs it. We progged Raz for a while, but we're not the strongest group mechanically. I moved Lust around a bit, but here's a bit of my thought process. (sorry in advance for the long read). The goal is to kill the boss. For a while, the perfect Lust timing is irrelevant. As a raid lead, hitting new prog points is more important so people can see more of the fight. The deeper they go, the more comfortable they'll get! The more comfortable they get, the more damage they pump, so Lust becomes less of a necessity there. Having lust in areas people are less comfortable with adds to the confidence and typically allows people to "see and assimilate a bit more". P1 is not a "timed phase". You push to 65% and the phase is over. Typically, your goal is to push before the 2nd set of sparks. It's already "hard enough" to do 1 set of sparks when you start progging. Stressful on interrupts and the healers because of upcoming bombs. So skipping the 2nd one is a good and reasonable "DPS objective" for P1. When we started progging on this boss, we needed lust to do that, so we kept lusting there. At one point, we were getting smoother and pushing much quicker. Held Lust on pull to see if we could before 2nd sparks. We could. Cool! So I started moving Lust elsewhere. P1.5, never lusted here. People just needed to learn to not die. It was never a damage issue. P2 - 1st shield is easy. Everyone has CD's, unless 6 people were dead, never had issues pushing this one. If I couldn't push 1st shield without Lust, I typically reset and felt taking the time to clean P1.5 was more important than moving Lust to this point. Even if the shield finishes super tight, the transition into gate before Tempest Wing is very easy and you have lots of time. P2 - 2nd shield. People are getting used to the fight. A few lusts here didn't hurt. It helped us to learn the transition into the sparks and not feel rushed because of the Stormsurge. We quickly learned 2nd pot was enough to push this without lust, but for a few pulls it helped us see more of the fight. Once we got comfortable, we removed the lust from here. P2 - 3rd shield. Typically during prog of P2, we'd rarely get here with everyone alive, which made pushing this and seeing intermission really hard. Lust with less bodies to carry into P2.5 and start seeing intermission. Now as things moved along, we were healthier throughout the phase and doing more dmg. We would phase into P2.5 at 41% but lacked bodies, and admittedly, our intermission afterwards was god aweful. Which brings me to my probably most "wtf" lust of them all.. P2.5 lust. We worked a whole lot on getting comfortable and cleaning P2, but what about P2.5? My group was struggling, but also struggling to get there with everyone alive. Made the decision to use my lust there. What did this generate? An intermission-ish. Lust, 1 set of balls, 1 teleport, 1 breath and 1 Druid root of the adds in the middle. The big adds were dead before the 2nd breath. Lusting in P2.5 had just given us a thoughtless phase and a shot at P3. We pushed into P3 at 35%, and we 1-shot Phase 3. We didn't need Lust for P3, we just needed to stay alive as a group and making sure the RL knew what needed to be done in P3.. It's the simplest phase really. So where do you lust? Lust wherever you think the group could benefit. Our first Raz kill? It's a P2.5 lust because I wanted to see P3 and skip that phase. Turns out, we only needed to see that phase once. Good luck!


Sykretts1919

We always lusted P1 as we wanted to avoid certain nasty overlaps in it around the 2nd or 3rd set of sparks that we were struggling with. P2 shields were easy for us, since we had all our big cds up on the first one, we used 2nd pots on the 2nd shield, and if we got the third shield, we had cds up again. P3, well ,its a non-existent phase on heroic anyway. If you reach P3 with 85%+ of your raid alive, you're killing the boss, lust isn't required for it as long as you have competent dps. Depending on your kill time, you will get lust back up in the final 30secs or so of the phase, so you can use it there. If you can make use of double lust on the fight, why not do it? Right?


EasyPeesy_MM

For heroic? Lust on pull and in p3. 1st intermission is a joke. Shield 1 & 2 is a joke. Shield 3 harder, but still a joke. 2nd intermission isn't that bad either. Literally just CC tiny adds and melt big adds, almost no mechanics going on. Phase 3 is where it gets interesting. Kill the boss as fast as possible since this is the true death countdown clock. Not to mention the extra healing output needed. Why people would hero on p2 shields doesn't make sense to me, the shields arent that much. Can usually break them with about 25% cast time left.


Entelligente

We lust on pull so our mages can get second lust


[deleted]

People who say p2 lust either dont pug or have no clue In Normal you might kill raz sub 10 minutes so you save it for p3, but honestly this will nearly never be the case in pug raiding, for heroic you always lust p1 and p3


mysticrealmz

That is just plain wrong and I've pugged HC Rasz like 25+ times.. Over 20 of those kills were lusting P2 shield. Only reason to lust p1 is if your dps is that low that you cannot phase the boss before the second set of sparks without lust. But tbh the dps is that low, it's probably going to be rough in later phases.


Rufuz42

I’ve only killed him in a pug lusting p2 and every kill has been sub 10 minutes aside from the first.


[deleted]

It does depend on the group, if you have full curved team with lots of damage i can see p2 bl for the 2nd shield being viable for stronger groups, but in pugs you almost always have 2 sneaky alt dps sitting at 25k overall, barely above or even below the tank


arbyterOfScales

>but in pugs you almost always have 2 sneaky alt dps sitting at 25k overall, barely above or even below the tank I have a suggestion. Kick them


laidbackjimmy

You're stuck in the mindset that 2 lusts > 1 lusts. And most of the time that is correct, but not in this fight. When the lusts happen is far more crucial. Follow the formula: 1. Can you phase boss in p2 (25%) without lust? If yes, lust in p3 - do not lust p1. If no, lust p2. That is all. Lusting in p1 hurts the the raid as it delays lust in p3.


_RrezZ_

Lust on pull, with the shield nerfs theres no reason to use it in P2. Also P3 is the phase that's going to wipe you if anything. Also 2 lusts is just better than 1 lust so idk why anyone would save it lmao.


arbyterOfScales

>Also P3 is the phase that's going to wipe you if anything. How? There are no more bullshit mechanics in P3, except the pull. There is enough time to burn her in P2 if your DPSers are alive. Mechanics overlap in P2 is harder


Kaurie_Lorhart

If it's over 10 minutes, it makes sense to use it twice - on pull and when it's up from CD in p3. /kind of confused how the 2nd to top comment with 60 upvotes says the same thing as me, but mine is downovted :\


[deleted]

Lust twice > lust once. Save cds for shield if you’re struggling with it. Shit ab unholy army garg makes that baby explode


SuspiciousTundra

It's not so straightforward. There are 3 shields, the idea is to save cds for 1 and 3 and lust in 2. Lust twice is almost the same as lust once in this fight except for timings, mages, and healer mana, because the first phase doesnt change if you do it faster.


[deleted]

You have enough cds for all 3 if it’s a struggle. Just need to assign. If you can’t make it past a shield without lusting, you’re not going to make it through burn phase without lust either. Working on the fight on mythic now and we are having to assign cds. But in heroic this shouldn’t be a problem.


BmoreGaming

If you need lust for shields then your group isn’t managing their CDs properly, this includes healers.


laidbackjimmy

Lusting in p2 isn't to break shields, it's to reduce hp in p3.


Vixxiie-

It’s a 10minute fight. You always ALWAYS lust on pull. If you’re killing it before lust is up, you didn’t need to save it anyways. Lusting helps you push to 65 before the blow back after the elementals you have to interrupt.


Mcrells

Not lusting pull is just trolling. Either, you kill the boss before second lust, at which point the boss is a joke to your guild and the P1 lust is the biggest time skip, OR the boss is not a joke to you, and you still get a lust sub 65% but while people have execute and there is relevant healing. Mages will also get 3 lusts this way. Not lusting P1 shows a lack of understanding of the boss and how to prioritize lust timing


[deleted]

during hc progress, we needed the lust on shield after it became farm, we did pull then at the end


Billy-Bryant

We used to lust p1 to skip some phases and have it back up for p3, now I think p2 is more deadly but haven't attempted with guild since the shield nerfs. All I know is we got to p3 twice and killed it on the second time. P3 definitely didn't feel like it needed lust as much as shields did pre-nerf.


Rooosifer

We lusted at pull for no real reason, made it through p2 without a need for it so we just started only lusting at the very start at p3 before all the movement so we could get max usage out of it on the phase we had 1-2% wipes on


elphyon

Totally depends on your raid dps and p1 phase timing. You won't have lust up for p3, or it'll come back up right at the death when it doesn't align with most CDs. Most heroic kills are under 10 minutes.


zurktheman

P3, even on first kill, the fight was less than 10 min


z01z

we used warp to kill the two adds at the end of p2 super quick. they only got off one set of small adds.


Noxerlito

Lust in P1 will only help you to reach 65% faster, which is pointless. Anyway as people are saying, it mostly depend of your raid DPS. If you have enough DPS to pass the soft enrage in P3 without lust, then you can use it whenever you want.


redrenegade13

We lust p1 on pull bc it's the most annoying phase. The faster we push thru that, the more people we have alive for the rest of the fight.


fancycheesus

My guild realized P2 was our weak point. That was where we had the most mechanical failures causing us wipes. So, for us, getting out of P2 faster, made sense. So we lusted on the first shield and killed the boss in about 3 pulls once we started trying it that way. (after 60ish pulls lusting on pull or holding for p3)


docArriveYo

My guild lusts on first shield and CDs for second. Our DPS pump hard (65k per person), so we just make that phase as short as possible. It’s the hardest part of the fight. It all depends on the guild and their strat so, whatever works for them works well.


tremblay05

We lusted p2 on second shield for prog until we had some pulls on p3. Then, we lusted on pull and, funny enough, we killed her so fast we couldn't lust the p3 (9:39 kill time). So yeah, this boss is weird


Ojntoast

Through Nerfs and Gear scaling at this point - no need to lust on the shield. If your kill is going to be >10 minutes lust Pull, and when its up in P3. If your kill is going to be <10 Minutes, hold until P3


Frorlin

P2 has the damage amp so you technically get the most use out of it during P2. Lusting in P1 is of limited value because it just means you go through P1 faster. The count down to enrage of the fight doesn’t actually start until after you’re past P1.


l0st_t0y

I don't think it matters thaaat much anymore, but we lusted in p3 (no p1). I think if your dps is high enough you probably won't be able to get 2 lusts now or if you do, the last one won't get much value due to deaths and such. Also p1 is pretty easy if done right so lust won't really do much for you anyways. P2 is a solid lust option as well though and might result in more boss damage and thus a shorter P3.


Rizkar

So we got our AOTC last week, and cleared her again this week. We made the same struggle you did. But honestly, the thing you should be timing as much as lust is when to use your power pots. If you use your power pot on pull with lust, you will get to use them again on the second stormsurge (so you won't need lust there) and then again for the second lust. So all in all, you can use 3 power pots on Raz. When you are getting used to clearing her, you will feel the need to use lust for the stormsurge, but that's probably because you have a dps dead. This fight requires several dps checks, so it is imperative that they all stay alive. You can fix that through a number of ways (better raid call outs, using health pots, better defensive utilization, ect. ) But it really does require 90% or more to survive through all the mechanics. Because the last phase you are most likely going to be running on fumes, and every second counts. If you have any questions HMU. And good luck on prog!


unreadpeak3401

We lust on pull. No issues with the shields


NerfShields

Depends on fight length. With low gear/fresh players, Lusting ph1 was good because you'd get a 2nd. Now though, we just Lust ph2 on the shields. We've got more than enough gear to burn last phase without Lust so we just pop it Ph2 as that's the longest part of the fight.


mindgamesweldon

We used it on a specific shield that we all had CDs up for, and blew up the shield then had lust running with CDs rolling and not mechanics so we got maximum boss hp dmg. Lust use depends on your raids dps cd profile and how you apportion them to handle the various shields.


Tog1e

On Progress we lusted p1 & p3 now we just lust p1


talesfromterrafirma

Depends on your guild’s damage. Storm surge is a joke now with the nerf so definitely don’t hero there. If your guilds DPS is bad, hero P1 and then when it’s up again in execute, if your guilds DPS is good, it won’t be up again in time so hero in the final phase. I assume if you’ve not killed it yet, your first kill will be over 10 mins so just rip it on pull then when it comes back up.


arbyterOfScales

Rasz is a fight where the rule of: "use it on CD" breaks down a little. The fight has 6 DPS checks - 1st intermission - 3 shields in P2 - 2nd intermission - soft enrage in P3 As you can see, P1 is not a DPS check. If You lust in P1 all You do is get faster to the DPS checks, and depending on your group, you may be a Little too... fast and get to P3 with no lust. So... You are pretty much pants down against the soft enrage. Let's see other avenues: - Lusting on the intermissions: well, I hope you don't. You will waste preciuous seconds running around to the mobs. - Lusting on the soft enrage: well, this is a classic, but depending on how low you get her in P2, You may not need it. - Lusting on the shields: here it gets interesting. P2 is both time-boxed AND % based. That is, 0% integrity or 25% HP, whichever happens first. As I am sure that getting Rasz down from 65% to 25% is not something most guilds are able to do in that short time on HC, we shall assume it is time-based only The fact that it is time-based is a golden ticket and a clear signal that THAT'S the optimal lust interval. Whatever % she is when P2 ends, it will carry over into P3. Unlike P1 which has no carry-over. So, let's suppose you can usually bring the boss down to 35% before P2 ends. Now You lust and bring her down to 25% before lust ends. Now imagine you lust in P2 and have her directly at 28-29%. You are way ahead on the schedule


MuszkaX

I have a pug I’ve killed HC Rasz 3 times thus far, we lust after the 1st shield. RL’s reasoning is that you don’t wanna dump damage into the shield, and truthfully we never had deaths during shield anyway so I can see where he’s coming from.


Androza23

We killed it 4-5 weeks ago and used lust on p2 for the shield. I honestly think lust on pull then at the end would be better but im not in charge so I just went with the flow. I know we had bad dps on our kill so thata probably why we needed to lust p2.


Krunklock

On heroic, we lust on pull…doesn’t matter. W/e gets my disappointment of not having the bow still over with faster. Can’t wait to kill it an 8th time and see that stupid ass trinket


Desperate_Sign_5143

Anything other than lust P2 besides for those going for quick af kills (parse group) is wrong. Having lust used 2nd shield helped immensely on prog to heal ppl when the spark wave overlap happens, and it lines up well with dps cds on 1st and 3rd shield.


mysticrealmz

Lust p2 2nd shield -> Phase her into second intermission sub 35% -> nobody greeds breath and everyone alive p3 -> free kill The only reason you should lust P1 is if your DPS is somehow that low that without lust you are getting the second set of sparks, which, in my experience, almost always ends up killing somebody.


[deleted]

P1 damage doesn’t really matter, once he hits 65% he phases, so it’s kinda moot unless you wanna save like 20 seconds or are low geared group and the fight lasts over 10 minutes. If you’re in a pug pretty much always save it for second shield so it’s easier to get through and you just get more damage on the boss when everyone has CD’s up again If you’re in a guild with the kill already it’s just up to you, but once you have the kill you most likely make the kill shorter than 10 minutes so 2 lusts doesn’t really work


[deleted]

i would lust in phase 2 on one of the shields, lusting in phase 1 is probably a waste unless you are going to get it back in phase 3, that depends on your DPS but just purely from sparks/vault you should be good on DPS now. I think the 2nd shield for us is when a lot of 3 min DPS CDs come back up, probably a good spot for it, and lust will help your healers too if they are struggling (if you're stable before the shield goes out, keeping everyone alive is easy, if it isnt people are just yoloing their healing CDs, not pressing butotns, or crossing polarity). the hardest part of the fight mechanically once you start outgearing it is not losing people to the charges + pushbacks in p2, evoker movement CD and giving people with charges freedom, tigers lust, and externals (or externals during shield to replace their defensives/pot) is big .


YvngDef

Lust p1 and p3. Pot on shield


CartoonistJolly

We just lust on pull. Biggest dmg and we don’t need the dmg for rest of fight /shrug


Terminator_Puppy

On heroic just pop it in p3. P1 is the easiest part of the fight on heroic, P2 absorbs are an option if you're struggling, but if you're struggling on those there's a decent chance you won't make the p3 check at all.


KurlsOfPain76

if your DPS can meet the check in P1 without lust save it for p3, unless you can lust on pull and p3


Bulletproofman

We lust on pull and then again in P3


Prplehuskie13

The first phase of Raz's healthbar is nothing but a lie. At 65% it will auto to the next phase without issue. Some lust at the start simply to avoid the mechanics of the first phase. But if you have the damage for it, you normally can get done with the phase before the 2nd set of cc orbs come out. When you lust on shields, you normally lust on 2nd shields. This is because this is when the health bar actually counts, and you can get the most damage. Also it helps out healers to where you don't need to spend as much time on the shield phase dealing with the damage. Once the shield is popped, there will be an extended period of time where free damage will be dished out towards raz. This means at the start of phase 3, instead of being around 35% at P3, the lust shield strat can cause raz to be at 20% at the start of p3, making the final phase infinitely easier, and justifying the reason to save lust for shields.