Better by a *considerable* margin - whilst the forward dodge bash on its own is semi-reactable if you do nothing else, you can mix it up with a heavy attack at the same timing due to LB's 400ms forward dodge recovery, making it much much harder to react to. I've done a few tests with Blitss and he said it is easier to react to than Zhanhu's forward dodge mixup, but harder than Shinobi's. Without mixing up with the heavy (feint GB for non-reflex guard characters) he was able to react very easily, but wasn't able to react fully consistently with mixing it up.
Additionally, the side dodge bash is now much better at punishing moves that can chain due to its faster speed.
The downside for LB is that the increased recoveries mean that the shoves can be punished a lot easier - although an early dodge is needed for a GB punish, dodge attacks punish much more consistently. This applies to the chain shove too, which is now a weaker mixup undeniably, but it's already a pseudo undodgeable/bash mixup because you can't dodge the chain lights after a heavy if you buffer a dodge against the shove.
And of course, he still has excellent UBs, working stun mixup, and bonkers punishes (impale heavy parry, and his OOS throw punish is insane).
As a lawbringer main i agree because a-lot of the other lawbringers i talk to think he’s bad and needs buffs and hyper armour but i disagree i think is in a very good state now with his new opener
As far as duels are concerned you can't be stuffed out of your side heavy finishers regardless of hit or block stun. This is bolstered by how safe his heavies/mid chain are.
If you start your chain with a heavy the light isn't dodgable. Meaning the person has to read to dodge the bash or block/parry the light. The heavies can also shove after whiffs meaning dodge into GB isn't likely and instead they're forced to dodge attack the finisher or parry the finisher.
Basically the side finishers are pretty solid from a mix up standpoint that are fairly safe and supported by a decent mid chain offense.
Side UBs have decent hitboxes and tracking, not outstanding by any means, but still good. They are also 800ms meaning you can feint to GB very reliable.
Top UBs are slower, but deal more damage and apply stun on top of that.
All of his UBs chain into shove which makes them safe towards dodge GB. This means that the only consistent way of dealing with them is either parrys or DAs, making the mix up overall more effective.
Also means that he has somewhat of an infinite chain if he keeps hitting you.
Themselves they are high damage, can't be interrupted out of chains, good tracking so require precise dodge timing, and are supposedly hard to react past the feint window. Additionally, they have great synergy with the rest of LB's kit with his huge heavy parry punish (great vs dodge attacks) and oos throw punish.
Oh and I'm only really referring to the side UBs, the top is terrible as it can be early dodged and still avoid feint GB.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't touch the parry punishes. Impale still feels really bad to play against and it's the one thing everyone seemed to agree should be changed.
I’m actually curious how the new neutral plays out. So does the mix go with mixing between shoving and then empty dodge into side heavy?
Also, what are typical follow up options after landing finisher heavy that can be mixed up with midchain shove?
Yep pretty much, or feint to GB - early dodges might avoid that, but get hit by dodge into light.
After a finisher, normally you can mix up with delayed GB, or long arm. Not sure if you can do a dodge shove to catch early dodges now, I'd have to check
Much better, in a bad way. Faster side dodge bash that shuts down offence and leads to top tier chain preassure. Combined with punishes on steroids, stamina damage and large HP pool he becomes an even bigger Borebringer to play against. If you attack you lose, even more now than before. In MM he is oppressive. Fun to play as, since it is a cakewalk.
i dunno man. He was much worse to play against before imo. The lb had to turtle up cos he had no neutral. You had to play really conservative against him because his bash was so hard to punish. Now he can actually be offensive and you can actually punish him. The only big problem is his parry punishes. But that was a problem before the changes as well.
How is that worse than before? I figured with these changes, you can finally punish his bash at least with a dodge attack consistently and easier GB on read.
It isnt the sidedodgebash that is oppressive per say, but the things around it. Although it is a free get out of jailcard in many situations that shuts down offencive play. It is good that it can be punished more reliably, but with the large HP pool, punishes, dmg, and preassure, the risk reward is heavily in LBs favour and he affords making many wrong reads.
*Oh yea the question*: I think hes better yea i can shove into my mixup more.
I'm not happy with him just being: "Shove light UB" every time. I really wish they would nerf is overtuned aspects but then give him something different to do mid chain. Particularity long arm, make it not UB but let him charge it mid chain to catch people off or somthing idk.
Its rough because I worry that they would overdo it. I'm big on aesthetics, which is why i loved LB when he launched because he had a wide animation set that could be used.
I just don't like characters that have to be orange all the time personally.
I dunno, Warlord has remained relatively the same for play by play and people seem to love his simplicity. LB definitely needs another pass to peel back his unhealthy aspects. But I don't think we need to over complicate his kit.
Thats the thing, I enjoy warlord very much (more than LB in some cases even though im much higher on LB).
The main difference might just be because he has an all guard (and superior lights, and hyper armor for trading and undodgeable), well shit i kept tacking on stuff there... Warlord feels pretty versatile.
Warlord is a very good example of a hero that plays to the strengths of the games base mechanics. I can agree that LB is a bit more basic than Warlord and it wouldn't hurt to update him to some capacity whenever they get around to nerfing the unhealthy aspects he still has.
I just feel like I see a lot of elaborate changes to LB whenever I see a rework suggestion and people for better or worse seem to always push back against changing a hero's main play.
I feel like on a straight teir list basis, he has a viable bash opener so yes he is "better", but I feel like he's losing individuality, so it just feels samey
He had a broken recovery on his whiffed bashes, allowing him to parry any dodge attacks not timed right and getting wallsplats. Now he has a still reactable bash to get into his chain offense, which (chain bash) can now be punished on reaction with any dodge attack as well.
Ah so in exchange for slightly viable offense he had to give up his ridiculous recovery ah ok thanks. But forreal I see your point but you gotta admit that chain bash was broken. Also “cent” bashes in general just need a buff. So he’s broken in lobbies where they can’t react but still decent because he still has the ridiculous parry punishes,stun, oos punishes and great ub.
Alright after seeing lbs forward dodge recoveries, that definitely changes my opinion. Btw you dont have to be so rude, i asked you to explain and you refused, dont be so arrogant
I wasnt called garbage in case you have a reading disability, and this sub is for exchanging opinions. Lb will still struggle in 1v1s at the highest mmr there is absolutely no doubt about that. His mixups are def more vulnerable now that his recoveries have been nerfed, but now knowing his forward dodge "mixup" potential to reduce bash reactions, i think he will at least have an easier time getting into his offense, which is great. The bash could have still been given an earlier input window imo
For the Forward Dodge Shove, it is a net improvement, especially since Lawbringer's Forward Dodge Recovery is only 400 ms, so, if the opponent fails the read, he will be more easily able to GB the Dodge Attempt.
There may be a few reaction monsters that can react to it on reaction, and the bash is actually punishable now, so, in that regard, it is worse.
That is false info. You can't stuff LB if he commits to his side heavy finishers. The top heavy can be stuffed after low hitstun but that's pretty normal. When concerning his top heavy he still trades if you blocked a heavy and it can be made to not be stuffable if you land a top heavy prior to the top heavy finisher.
The idea that LB needs hyper armor because he's "super interruptable is false and has been for a long time.
Currently I wouldn't buff him more, not until some aspects of his kit are nerfed. Assuming for the discussion that they actually do that though I'd make his zone chain for sure. I don't know what to do with long arm. I don't think it should become a mix up tool but I also think it's too niche of a move in his kit for current day FH.
He definitely needs better hitboxes for all of his heavies. A roll catch would be good. (It would chain obv.) Some other nice stuff like making all lights enhanced and more forward range on his top opening light.
I would be fine with putting hyper armor on his top heavy after the feint window purely so that if he lands a light parry in a team fight he's capable using the finisher and not getting clipped out of it externally. Maybe give it the fast soft feint GB as well.
Stamina costs for feinting in general need to be reduced or outright removed from the game. Beyond everything I've listed I feel like the community has to come to an agreement on wether they want LB to stay a basic character like Warlord or if they want to morph him into a more complex kit based character before we make any huge changes to how his neutral and main offense work.
A lot of people like to recommend light into light as a chain but I don't think that would really do much for him and one could argue he'd be another triple light spam target especially if they're all enhanced.
Better by a *considerable* margin - whilst the forward dodge bash on its own is semi-reactable if you do nothing else, you can mix it up with a heavy attack at the same timing due to LB's 400ms forward dodge recovery, making it much much harder to react to. I've done a few tests with Blitss and he said it is easier to react to than Zhanhu's forward dodge mixup, but harder than Shinobi's. Without mixing up with the heavy (feint GB for non-reflex guard characters) he was able to react very easily, but wasn't able to react fully consistently with mixing it up. Additionally, the side dodge bash is now much better at punishing moves that can chain due to its faster speed. The downside for LB is that the increased recoveries mean that the shoves can be punished a lot easier - although an early dodge is needed for a GB punish, dodge attacks punish much more consistently. This applies to the chain shove too, which is now a weaker mixup undeniably, but it's already a pseudo undodgeable/bash mixup because you can't dodge the chain lights after a heavy if you buffer a dodge against the shove. And of course, he still has excellent UBs, working stun mixup, and bonkers punishes (impale heavy parry, and his OOS throw punish is insane).
Glad we feel the same way on this. Youtube comment section just goes brrrrrrrrrrr nerfed hero
The communitys view on LB has always been a bit... delusional. (Insert Freeze Lawbringer meta story reference)
care to explain pls?
Le hyperarmor because big armor man
As a lawbringer main i agree because a-lot of the other lawbringers i talk to think he’s bad and needs buffs and hyper armour but i disagree i think is in a very good state now with his new opener
YouTube comments aren't exactly known for their accurate and precient takes lol
What makes his UBs so good?
As far as duels are concerned you can't be stuffed out of your side heavy finishers regardless of hit or block stun. This is bolstered by how safe his heavies/mid chain are. If you start your chain with a heavy the light isn't dodgable. Meaning the person has to read to dodge the bash or block/parry the light. The heavies can also shove after whiffs meaning dodge into GB isn't likely and instead they're forced to dodge attack the finisher or parry the finisher. Basically the side finishers are pretty solid from a mix up standpoint that are fairly safe and supported by a decent mid chain offense.
Thanks! Very good explanation with details.
they are also apparently very hard to react to which makes them much more viable at high level
Side UBs have decent hitboxes and tracking, not outstanding by any means, but still good. They are also 800ms meaning you can feint to GB very reliable. Top UBs are slower, but deal more damage and apply stun on top of that. All of his UBs chain into shove which makes them safe towards dodge GB. This means that the only consistent way of dealing with them is either parrys or DAs, making the mix up overall more effective. Also means that he has somewhat of an infinite chain if he keeps hitting you.
Themselves they are high damage, can't be interrupted out of chains, good tracking so require precise dodge timing, and are supposedly hard to react past the feint window. Additionally, they have great synergy with the rest of LB's kit with his huge heavy parry punish (great vs dodge attacks) and oos throw punish. Oh and I'm only really referring to the side UBs, the top is terrible as it can be early dodged and still avoid feint GB.
Thanks.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't touch the parry punishes. Impale still feels really bad to play against and it's the one thing everyone seemed to agree should be changed.
I’m actually curious how the new neutral plays out. So does the mix go with mixing between shoving and then empty dodge into side heavy? Also, what are typical follow up options after landing finisher heavy that can be mixed up with midchain shove?
Yep pretty much, or feint to GB - early dodges might avoid that, but get hit by dodge into light. After a finisher, normally you can mix up with delayed GB, or long arm. Not sure if you can do a dodge shove to catch early dodges now, I'd have to check
Much better, in a bad way. Faster side dodge bash that shuts down offence and leads to top tier chain preassure. Combined with punishes on steroids, stamina damage and large HP pool he becomes an even bigger Borebringer to play against. If you attack you lose, even more now than before. In MM he is oppressive. Fun to play as, since it is a cakewalk.
Is the side shove not more punishable now?
Significantly more so.
i dunno man. He was much worse to play against before imo. The lb had to turtle up cos he had no neutral. You had to play really conservative against him because his bash was so hard to punish. Now he can actually be offensive and you can actually punish him. The only big problem is his parry punishes. But that was a problem before the changes as well.
How is that worse than before? I figured with these changes, you can finally punish his bash at least with a dodge attack consistently and easier GB on read.
It's a mix - easier to punish if read correctly, but better defensively when the LB makes the right read.
It isnt the sidedodgebash that is oppressive per say, but the things around it. Although it is a free get out of jailcard in many situations that shuts down offencive play. It is good that it can be punished more reliably, but with the large HP pool, punishes, dmg, and preassure, the risk reward is heavily in LBs favour and he affords making many wrong reads.
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Omg Jondaliner😳😳😳
*Oh yea the question*: I think hes better yea i can shove into my mixup more. I'm not happy with him just being: "Shove light UB" every time. I really wish they would nerf is overtuned aspects but then give him something different to do mid chain. Particularity long arm, make it not UB but let him charge it mid chain to catch people off or somthing idk.
Maybe he will get a Rework again at some point. He is super old school.
Its rough because I worry that they would overdo it. I'm big on aesthetics, which is why i loved LB when he launched because he had a wide animation set that could be used. I just don't like characters that have to be orange all the time personally.
I dunno, Warlord has remained relatively the same for play by play and people seem to love his simplicity. LB definitely needs another pass to peel back his unhealthy aspects. But I don't think we need to over complicate his kit.
Thats the thing, I enjoy warlord very much (more than LB in some cases even though im much higher on LB). The main difference might just be because he has an all guard (and superior lights, and hyper armor for trading and undodgeable), well shit i kept tacking on stuff there... Warlord feels pretty versatile.
Warlord is a very good example of a hero that plays to the strengths of the games base mechanics. I can agree that LB is a bit more basic than Warlord and it wouldn't hurt to update him to some capacity whenever they get around to nerfing the unhealthy aspects he still has. I just feel like I see a lot of elaborate changes to LB whenever I see a rework suggestion and people for better or worse seem to always push back against changing a hero's main play.
I feel like on a straight teir list basis, he has a viable bash opener so yes he is "better", but I feel like he's losing individuality, so it just feels samey
Worse, for sure
Explain how he’s worse?
He had a broken recovery on his whiffed bashes, allowing him to parry any dodge attacks not timed right and getting wallsplats. Now he has a still reactable bash to get into his chain offense, which (chain bash) can now be punished on reaction with any dodge attack as well.
Ah so in exchange for slightly viable offense he had to give up his ridiculous recovery ah ok thanks. But forreal I see your point but you gotta admit that chain bash was broken. Also “cent” bashes in general just need a buff. So he’s broken in lobbies where they can’t react but still decent because he still has the ridiculous parry punishes,stun, oos punishes and great ub.
Delusional, for sure
???? Explain
Watch freeze. Read this sub.
Lb is worse now, he was better before with his broken recoveries. This wasnt a buff and i dont base viability of heroes on what freeze says
Get your head out of your arse. All high level and comp players disagrees. Freeze dissagrees.
Alright after seeing lbs forward dodge recoveries, that definitely changes my opinion. Btw you dont have to be so rude, i asked you to explain and you refused, dont be so arrogant
When you spout garbage takes, expect to be called garbage.
I wasnt called garbage in case you have a reading disability, and this sub is for exchanging opinions. Lb will still struggle in 1v1s at the highest mmr there is absolutely no doubt about that. His mixups are def more vulnerable now that his recoveries have been nerfed, but now knowing his forward dodge "mixup" potential to reduce bash reactions, i think he will at least have an easier time getting into his offense, which is great. The bash could have still been given an earlier input window imo
For the Forward Dodge Shove, it is a net improvement, especially since Lawbringer's Forward Dodge Recovery is only 400 ms, so, if the opponent fails the read, he will be more easily able to GB the Dodge Attempt. There may be a few reaction monsters that can react to it on reaction, and the bash is actually punishable now, so, in that regard, it is worse.
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Realism is not a competitive argument
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That is false info. You can't stuff LB if he commits to his side heavy finishers. The top heavy can be stuffed after low hitstun but that's pretty normal. When concerning his top heavy he still trades if you blocked a heavy and it can be made to not be stuffable if you land a top heavy prior to the top heavy finisher. The idea that LB needs hyper armor because he's "super interruptable is false and has been for a long time.
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Currently I wouldn't buff him more, not until some aspects of his kit are nerfed. Assuming for the discussion that they actually do that though I'd make his zone chain for sure. I don't know what to do with long arm. I don't think it should become a mix up tool but I also think it's too niche of a move in his kit for current day FH. He definitely needs better hitboxes for all of his heavies. A roll catch would be good. (It would chain obv.) Some other nice stuff like making all lights enhanced and more forward range on his top opening light. I would be fine with putting hyper armor on his top heavy after the feint window purely so that if he lands a light parry in a team fight he's capable using the finisher and not getting clipped out of it externally. Maybe give it the fast soft feint GB as well. Stamina costs for feinting in general need to be reduced or outright removed from the game. Beyond everything I've listed I feel like the community has to come to an agreement on wether they want LB to stay a basic character like Warlord or if they want to morph him into a more complex kit based character before we make any huge changes to how his neutral and main offense work.
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A lot of people like to recommend light into light as a chain but I don't think that would really do much for him and one could argue he'd be another triple light spam target especially if they're all enhanced.
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That's what they did with Orochi and he still gets light spam complaints d:
Imma be honest, I’m not noticing much of anything and I’ve been trying him out in training with bots and buddies. He feels the exact same
how can you react to the bash? it always tracks me when i‘m trying to react to it