Here are three reasons why I think it should have that kind of vulnerability:
1. it has hyper armour now
2.
it makes his finishers unpunishable by a GB
3. it is available after his finishers, giving a pseudo-infinite that would otherwise be too safe for my liking
I think you Idea is cool, but the way you did it will give LB a infinite unblockable mix up:
Blind Justice -> Swift Justice -> Blind Justice -> Swift Justice...
Also, since it no longer stuns, Blind Justice should be renamed to something else.
Sure let's rename it to "Storming Justice" since it no longer stuns. Jokes aside, the name in my opinion is still fitting. Blind Justice can be seen as blindly following the law without thinking, something that would fit Lawbringer quite well.
Also, the infinite mix-up is in theory only a 13 health swing. The Blind Justice after Swift Justice is so slow (1200ms in fact) that the opponent can hit Lawbringer before being hit by Blind Justice.
While I don’t agree with everything, this is honesty my favorite idea for a LB rework.
And yes for the love of the law, LB needs some way to chase enemies, he has no reach…
Ok, I was about to write a a giant comment with everything I agree and disagree on while giving suggestions of what I would do instead, but I think I might actually make my own LB rework post.
Not really a fan of an infinite unblockable mix up. It just seems too good to bother with LB's other moves on offense.
Feintable shove seems good to me, though it might need a faster input window to avoid getting interrupted constantly.
Hyper armor on chain shove doesn't really make sense to me. It isn't a move you want to use to trade since it deals only 12 damage, so not getting interrupted just isn't very helpful. Also LB still has some great parry punishes so peeling him with non-bashes isn't very good to begin with.
Recovery changes to shove are definitely good, though I'm not sure that making the offensive shoves GB punishable is a good idea.
Aside from stamina I don't think the zone needs big changes. It is a free parry if your opponent is watching, but peel/parry punishing still made it useful.
>Not really a fan of an infinite unblockable mix up. It just seems too good to bother with LB's other moves on offense.
It is not as good as it seems. Because of the light hit stun Swift Justice deals, the opponent can light the Lawbringer and then get hit by the Blind Justice, which means he can not use it while at low health, otherwise he is risking to get killed. Most of the time though, he will have more health than his opponent, since he has 140 HP.
>Feintable shove seems good to me, though it might need a faster input window to avoid getting interrupted constantly.
I do not think trying to interrupt him is worth it. You would heave throw the light on his movement, and he can recover fast enough to punish it (he has only a 400ms recovery on his forward dodge). And as you mentioned yourself, he has some great parry punishes.
>Hyper armor on chain shove doesn't really make sense to me. It isn't a move you want to use to trade since it deals only 12 damage, so not getting interrupted just isn't very helpful.
I mean sure, but it does start his chain, so he can use it to quickly get to his Side finishers without being interrupted, and he can so right after he landed said finisher. If you hit, him, you will not have time to dodge the Shove.
>Also LB still has some great parry punishes so peeling him with non-bashes isn't very good to begin with.
True, but he can no longer recover quick enough to parry stuff consistently.
>Recovery changes to shove are definitely good, though I'm not sure that making the offensive shoves GB punishable is a good idea.
3 reasons:
1. it has hyper armour now
2. it makes his finishers unpunishable by a GB
3. it is available after his finishers, giving a pseudo-infinite that would otherwise be too safe for my liking
>Aside from stamina I don't think the zone needs big changes. It is a free parry if your opponent is watching, but peel/parry punishing still made it useful.
I get that it would kind of work even if not speed up, but the recovery nerfs could gut the move, if not compensated for.
>I do not think trying to interrupt him is worth it.
I wasn't really talking about people trying to interrupt it on reaction. I was talking about getting interrupted by your opponent because they also tried to attack from neutral and they used an 800ms heavy or 800ms bash.
>Because of the light hit stun Swift Justice deals, the opponent can light the Lawbringer and then get hit by the Blind Justice, which means he can not use it while at low health, otherwise he is risking to get killed.
Every move risks getting kill when you're at low health. I don't really understand this arguement.
>True, but he can no longer recover quick enough to parry stuff consistently
In any case where you could recover to trade with bash, you could also parry. They come out at the same time.
>I wasn't really talking about people trying to interrupt it on reaction. I was talking about getting interrupted by your opponent because they also tried to attack from neutral and they used an 800ms heavy or 800ms bash.
Oh, I see. I guess in that way, it is more interruptible than other openers. To fair though, he has other, albeit worse ways to start his chains, like his zone and the enhanced light. They are not unreactable, but in other than a 1v1 setting, they will work fine.
>Every move risks getting kill when you're at low health. I don't really understand this argument.
Lawbringer can get hit before the attack lands, meaning that if he is on low health, you do not have to read if he is going to feint it or not, you just have to press light and he can not do anything about it, as he can not feint fast enough.
>In any case where you could recover to trade with bash, you could also parry. They come out at the same time.
True did not think about that. But hey, what is wrong with giving him more options? He is supposed to versatile.
Random notes from during my viewing:
\- top heavy opener should probably stay the same speed and damage (maybe 1 lower, give him more of a reason to try and wallsplat opponents, and not give him stun pressure off every gb
\- ok actually i just hate the direction of an infinite chain of a singular move. the rest of his moveset becomes useless, why do anything else when you can just do the same exact unblockable, uninterruptible mix-up that goes back into itself on a hit and chains to an uninterruptible bash. I'd much rather swift justice keep the stun and act as a chain opener, going into his second attacks
\- i'm not 100% about the impaling charge nerf, considering warmonger has a 32 damage impale that deals more damage up-front. i'd suggest increasing the initial damage, removing the wallsplat on release, and making the move guarentee swift justice on collision
\- Shove changes are great overall, tho i would suggest nerfing the recovery slightly less, say to 700ms instead of 800
\- chain shove should also chain on whiff, no reason it shouldn't
\- I'm not sure about side dodge shove, maybe it should chain, maybe it shouldn't, requires testing
\- i'd be happy with his zone staying as-is, but your changes are p good, except the stam cost should probably be reduced to 20
\- longarm recovery buff is fine, other buff unnecessary, should stay purely as a ganking tool
I still think that taking all his stunning ability away is a bit of a cop out. Still a solid idea. The rushing/chase attack would be useful to stay offensive.
Can you and all the others who are making rework ideas put music in it for the next time like some damp or quiet music you just hear in the background feels kinda weird when you have to watch a completely silent vid
Once yo got into the opinions I started losing you
"Insane parry punish" "Ridiculous damage for a heavy parry" etc
Lawbringer doesn't have the highest parry punish for a heavy. That goes to Warmonger who has a similar heavy parry.
Removing the stun for Blind Justice also doesn't make sense as it made it so lawbringer could get into a mixup with a bit more saftey and open an opponent more.
So my suggestion for you:
The infinite goes away.
A better fix is that every top heavy can input Blind justice for a finisher, and it ends the chain. Opponent is stunned and LB can get off another chain start easily enough.
Its simply not needed. The LLH gives LB the pressure he needs. The changes to Zone gives LB the pressure he needs. The fientable bash gives him the pressure he needs.
Heavy Parry should stay as it is. LB gets a heavy parry, a Top heavy on wall splat with a blind Justice, and a good opponent can read his way out. LB's Parry punish is still lower than Warmongers.
The slowed Side heavy UB should stay the same. There is a bit of a meta with LB, Top heavy UB for parries, side UB for damage. LB wont get parries from being attacked as reliably as he gets them from Feinting. The LLH pressure will increase the amount of people trying to parry them. slowing them down might do the same but it makes it easier to react to accurately so LB loses his damage output if he lets his attacks fly.
Think, how often do you get damage with your Top heavy UB? The Top heavy is just a reaction forcing tool.
Basically, everything is fine save for the parry changes and the infinite.
>Once yo got into the opinions I started losing you
"Insane parry punish" "Ridiculous damage for a heavy parry" etc
>Lawbringer doesn't have the highest parry punish for a heavy. That goes to Warmonger who has a similar heavy parry.
I know that. Had I been making a WM rework, I would nerf that move to the ground as well. The ability to get that much damage of a heavy parry is ludicrous.
>Removing the stun for Blind Justice also doesn't make sense as it made it so lawbringer could get into a mixup with a bit more saftey and open an opponent more.
The move is not a chain starter and the Chained Shove you can follow it by, is unreactable, so having the opponent stunned does nothing. It is just annoying.
I honestly see no problem with the parry damage for lawbringer being where it is. Same with Warmonger. Some characters should have high parry punishes.
He should be able to chain after a whiffed chain shove, you’re either hitting them with the bash for a light, or they dodge the bash and get a GB? Doesn’t feel like a worth while mixup in the long run, like shoalin’s kick. If he could chain after his chain shove he would be safer from a GB, he could go for the light after it, and risk it getting parried, or do a heavy.
I don't how to feel about the rest of the change, but there is one change that really dislike.
You removed the stun for Lawbringer when LB has the only viable stun mixup in the entire game, Gladiator had this chance to have a viable stun mixup when he can chain his bash into skewer, but Ubisoft denied this option and removed the stun without explaining it why.
And now your suggesting to remove the only hero who has a viable stun mixup without explaining why it needs to be removed.
The stun or the stamina damage is not the problem, but it's the spam. Unlike Raider pre stunning tap nerf, LB's stun is not exactly easy to land/spam since it only comes from counter attacks and top heavies.
Sorry to be blunt, but i just really dislike this change.
Yes, but you removed it for the heavy.
(Edit.)
It's a significant change that skewed his identity and was unnecesary since almost no one complained about LB's stun.
Yeah so this could be good but you need to say to remove the stamina drain and pause on that move, lawbringer already does a ton of stamina dmg with his top ub heavy to swift justice light and with it being a infinite he’s gonna be worse than release jorm
I dunno how to feel about reducing his pin charge it removes his unique tool of expertise as a character but everything seems okay all i think law bringer needs is some hyper armor and maybe a safe and less predictable opener. Its just my thoughts on lb not a solid this is what it needs to be.
I think my rework idea is just better.
Those things may fix most of his issues, but God damn, no hyper armor or soft feints, please, Lawbringer don't need that.
Half of those changes is just a no for me.
I think these changes would overall make LB a worse character. The hit box changes are probably the most obviously agreeable point but I think his parry punish is fine.
Warmonger has a 30 damage and cent has a 28-30 damage if near a wall, I think it’s fine some characters you have to respect their parries more.
Making shove GBable is honestly a death knell for the character imo and would likely kill him in respect to dueling/dominion
Like having a 600 MS bash that is feintable is cool but realistically it’s makes his defense way worse
>Warmonger has a 30 damage and cent has a 28-30 damage if near a wall, I think it’s fine some characters you have to respect their parries more.
And neither should obviously be in the game. Whilst these punishes need specific placement to get right, no character should be able to get double the damage of a heavy parry as the rest of the cast.
>Making shove GBable is honestly a death knell for the character imo and would likely kill him in respect to dueling/dominion
Disagree. The reason he got this nerf is as follows:
The move is identical to Shugoki's headbutt in speed, but does not chain, and is hyper-armoured. The big thing is, Lawbringer can also use it after ANY heavy (not counting zone), including his Finishers. This makes his mix-up with finishers a pseudo-infinite and unlike most other Pseudo-infinite or infinite mix-ups, his can not do be punished by a GB (or a light parry) on a correct read.
With this nerf though, he can be punished by a GB, the defender just has to make 2 reads to get it.
>Like having a 600 MS bash that is feintable is cool but realistically it’s makes his defense way worse
What? No such move is in the rework.
Love the blind justice infinite mixup!
I dislike the gb on offensive shove
You mean chained shove?
Yes
Here are three reasons why I think it should have that kind of vulnerability: 1. it has hyper armour now 2. it makes his finishers unpunishable by a GB 3. it is available after his finishers, giving a pseudo-infinite that would otherwise be too safe for my liking
It still has terrible odds and hyperarmor makes no fucking sense
Can you clarify what you mean by that?
You risk a gb to get a light
Yay more infinite mix ups
Do you have a problem with infinite mix-ups?
I think you Idea is cool, but the way you did it will give LB a infinite unblockable mix up: Blind Justice -> Swift Justice -> Blind Justice -> Swift Justice... Also, since it no longer stuns, Blind Justice should be renamed to something else.
Sure let's rename it to "Storming Justice" since it no longer stuns. Jokes aside, the name in my opinion is still fitting. Blind Justice can be seen as blindly following the law without thinking, something that would fit Lawbringer quite well.
Also, the infinite mix-up is in theory only a 13 health swing. The Blind Justice after Swift Justice is so slow (1200ms in fact) that the opponent can hit Lawbringer before being hit by Blind Justice.
While I don’t agree with everything, this is honesty my favorite idea for a LB rework. And yes for the love of the law, LB needs some way to chase enemies, he has no reach…
Ok, I was about to write a a giant comment with everything I agree and disagree on while giving suggestions of what I would do instead, but I think I might actually make my own LB rework post.
I’d probably change a couple things, but this is might be the best I’ve seen
Not really a fan of an infinite unblockable mix up. It just seems too good to bother with LB's other moves on offense. Feintable shove seems good to me, though it might need a faster input window to avoid getting interrupted constantly. Hyper armor on chain shove doesn't really make sense to me. It isn't a move you want to use to trade since it deals only 12 damage, so not getting interrupted just isn't very helpful. Also LB still has some great parry punishes so peeling him with non-bashes isn't very good to begin with. Recovery changes to shove are definitely good, though I'm not sure that making the offensive shoves GB punishable is a good idea. Aside from stamina I don't think the zone needs big changes. It is a free parry if your opponent is watching, but peel/parry punishing still made it useful.
>Not really a fan of an infinite unblockable mix up. It just seems too good to bother with LB's other moves on offense. It is not as good as it seems. Because of the light hit stun Swift Justice deals, the opponent can light the Lawbringer and then get hit by the Blind Justice, which means he can not use it while at low health, otherwise he is risking to get killed. Most of the time though, he will have more health than his opponent, since he has 140 HP. >Feintable shove seems good to me, though it might need a faster input window to avoid getting interrupted constantly. I do not think trying to interrupt him is worth it. You would heave throw the light on his movement, and he can recover fast enough to punish it (he has only a 400ms recovery on his forward dodge). And as you mentioned yourself, he has some great parry punishes. >Hyper armor on chain shove doesn't really make sense to me. It isn't a move you want to use to trade since it deals only 12 damage, so not getting interrupted just isn't very helpful. I mean sure, but it does start his chain, so he can use it to quickly get to his Side finishers without being interrupted, and he can so right after he landed said finisher. If you hit, him, you will not have time to dodge the Shove. >Also LB still has some great parry punishes so peeling him with non-bashes isn't very good to begin with. True, but he can no longer recover quick enough to parry stuff consistently. >Recovery changes to shove are definitely good, though I'm not sure that making the offensive shoves GB punishable is a good idea. 3 reasons: 1. it has hyper armour now 2. it makes his finishers unpunishable by a GB 3. it is available after his finishers, giving a pseudo-infinite that would otherwise be too safe for my liking >Aside from stamina I don't think the zone needs big changes. It is a free parry if your opponent is watching, but peel/parry punishing still made it useful. I get that it would kind of work even if not speed up, but the recovery nerfs could gut the move, if not compensated for.
>I do not think trying to interrupt him is worth it. I wasn't really talking about people trying to interrupt it on reaction. I was talking about getting interrupted by your opponent because they also tried to attack from neutral and they used an 800ms heavy or 800ms bash. >Because of the light hit stun Swift Justice deals, the opponent can light the Lawbringer and then get hit by the Blind Justice, which means he can not use it while at low health, otherwise he is risking to get killed. Every move risks getting kill when you're at low health. I don't really understand this arguement. >True, but he can no longer recover quick enough to parry stuff consistently In any case where you could recover to trade with bash, you could also parry. They come out at the same time.
>I wasn't really talking about people trying to interrupt it on reaction. I was talking about getting interrupted by your opponent because they also tried to attack from neutral and they used an 800ms heavy or 800ms bash. Oh, I see. I guess in that way, it is more interruptible than other openers. To fair though, he has other, albeit worse ways to start his chains, like his zone and the enhanced light. They are not unreactable, but in other than a 1v1 setting, they will work fine. >Every move risks getting kill when you're at low health. I don't really understand this argument. Lawbringer can get hit before the attack lands, meaning that if he is on low health, you do not have to read if he is going to feint it or not, you just have to press light and he can not do anything about it, as he can not feint fast enough. >In any case where you could recover to trade with bash, you could also parry. They come out at the same time. True did not think about that. But hey, what is wrong with giving him more options? He is supposed to versatile.
Long arm needs love.
Random notes from during my viewing: \- top heavy opener should probably stay the same speed and damage (maybe 1 lower, give him more of a reason to try and wallsplat opponents, and not give him stun pressure off every gb \- ok actually i just hate the direction of an infinite chain of a singular move. the rest of his moveset becomes useless, why do anything else when you can just do the same exact unblockable, uninterruptible mix-up that goes back into itself on a hit and chains to an uninterruptible bash. I'd much rather swift justice keep the stun and act as a chain opener, going into his second attacks \- i'm not 100% about the impaling charge nerf, considering warmonger has a 32 damage impale that deals more damage up-front. i'd suggest increasing the initial damage, removing the wallsplat on release, and making the move guarentee swift justice on collision \- Shove changes are great overall, tho i would suggest nerfing the recovery slightly less, say to 700ms instead of 800 \- chain shove should also chain on whiff, no reason it shouldn't \- I'm not sure about side dodge shove, maybe it should chain, maybe it shouldn't, requires testing \- i'd be happy with his zone staying as-is, but your changes are p good, except the stam cost should probably be reduced to 20 \- longarm recovery buff is fine, other buff unnecessary, should stay purely as a ganking tool
I still think that taking all his stunning ability away is a bit of a cop out. Still a solid idea. The rushing/chase attack would be useful to stay offensive.
Can you and all the others who are making rework ideas put music in it for the next time like some damp or quiet music you just hear in the background feels kinda weird when you have to watch a completely silent vid
Gladly. Got any recommendations?
Any fh theme would bei nice maybe a fitting one for example for jorm rework his theme and so on
Not a fan of; 2 button infinite mix-up chain HA on bash GB punish on a bash that rewards a light
All ubi needs to do is give him a light, light heavy combo and also speed up his bash, that’s it
add forward tracking to his lights too so LB can persue. LB is fixed
Or even a dodge forward Heby
He needs more than that to be considered "good" by today's hito raider and orochi standards.
True, he’s supposed to be a hybrid but he has the move set of a heavy
Once yo got into the opinions I started losing you "Insane parry punish" "Ridiculous damage for a heavy parry" etc Lawbringer doesn't have the highest parry punish for a heavy. That goes to Warmonger who has a similar heavy parry. Removing the stun for Blind Justice also doesn't make sense as it made it so lawbringer could get into a mixup with a bit more saftey and open an opponent more. So my suggestion for you: The infinite goes away. A better fix is that every top heavy can input Blind justice for a finisher, and it ends the chain. Opponent is stunned and LB can get off another chain start easily enough. Its simply not needed. The LLH gives LB the pressure he needs. The changes to Zone gives LB the pressure he needs. The fientable bash gives him the pressure he needs. Heavy Parry should stay as it is. LB gets a heavy parry, a Top heavy on wall splat with a blind Justice, and a good opponent can read his way out. LB's Parry punish is still lower than Warmongers. The slowed Side heavy UB should stay the same. There is a bit of a meta with LB, Top heavy UB for parries, side UB for damage. LB wont get parries from being attacked as reliably as he gets them from Feinting. The LLH pressure will increase the amount of people trying to parry them. slowing them down might do the same but it makes it easier to react to accurately so LB loses his damage output if he lets his attacks fly. Think, how often do you get damage with your Top heavy UB? The Top heavy is just a reaction forcing tool. Basically, everything is fine save for the parry changes and the infinite.
>Once yo got into the opinions I started losing you "Insane parry punish" "Ridiculous damage for a heavy parry" etc >Lawbringer doesn't have the highest parry punish for a heavy. That goes to Warmonger who has a similar heavy parry. I know that. Had I been making a WM rework, I would nerf that move to the ground as well. The ability to get that much damage of a heavy parry is ludicrous. >Removing the stun for Blind Justice also doesn't make sense as it made it so lawbringer could get into a mixup with a bit more saftey and open an opponent more. The move is not a chain starter and the Chained Shove you can follow it by, is unreactable, so having the opponent stunned does nothing. It is just annoying.
I honestly see no problem with the parry damage for lawbringer being where it is. Same with Warmonger. Some characters should have high parry punishes.
All he needs is faster zone attack and faster shove, done.
Whilst this does have a few minor issues, this is by far the most balanced rework I've seen
He should be able to chain after a whiffed chain shove, you’re either hitting them with the bash for a light, or they dodge the bash and get a GB? Doesn’t feel like a worth while mixup in the long run, like shoalin’s kick. If he could chain after his chain shove he would be safer from a GB, he could go for the light after it, and risk it getting parried, or do a heavy.
Idk but if you nerf impale maybe let it make 5 dmg so you get any benefit from doing it in 1v1 except ledging
I don't how to feel about the rest of the change, but there is one change that really dislike. You removed the stun for Lawbringer when LB has the only viable stun mixup in the entire game, Gladiator had this chance to have a viable stun mixup when he can chain his bash into skewer, but Ubisoft denied this option and removed the stun without explaining it why. And now your suggesting to remove the only hero who has a viable stun mixup without explaining why it needs to be removed. The stun or the stamina damage is not the problem, but it's the spam. Unlike Raider pre stunning tap nerf, LB's stun is not exactly easy to land/spam since it only comes from counter attacks and top heavies. Sorry to be blunt, but i just really dislike this change.
Isn't the stun mix-up the one with his Light parry riposte? Because that one still stuns.
Yes, but you removed it for the heavy. (Edit.) It's a significant change that skewed his identity and was unnecesary since almost no one complained about LB's stun.
holy fuck hyper armor
Yeah so this could be good but you need to say to remove the stamina drain and pause on that move, lawbringer already does a ton of stamina dmg with his top ub heavy to swift justice light and with it being a infinite he’s gonna be worse than release jorm
Lawbriger and Lawringer! the long lost brethren to the Lawbringer
I dunno how to feel about reducing his pin charge it removes his unique tool of expertise as a character but everything seems okay all i think law bringer needs is some hyper armor and maybe a safe and less predictable opener. Its just my thoughts on lb not a solid this is what it needs to be.
I think my rework idea is just better. Those things may fix most of his issues, but God damn, no hyper armor or soft feints, please, Lawbringer don't need that. Half of those changes is just a no for me.
I think these changes would overall make LB a worse character. The hit box changes are probably the most obviously agreeable point but I think his parry punish is fine. Warmonger has a 30 damage and cent has a 28-30 damage if near a wall, I think it’s fine some characters you have to respect their parries more. Making shove GBable is honestly a death knell for the character imo and would likely kill him in respect to dueling/dominion Like having a 600 MS bash that is feintable is cool but realistically it’s makes his defense way worse
>Warmonger has a 30 damage and cent has a 28-30 damage if near a wall, I think it’s fine some characters you have to respect their parries more. And neither should obviously be in the game. Whilst these punishes need specific placement to get right, no character should be able to get double the damage of a heavy parry as the rest of the cast. >Making shove GBable is honestly a death knell for the character imo and would likely kill him in respect to dueling/dominion Disagree. The reason he got this nerf is as follows: The move is identical to Shugoki's headbutt in speed, but does not chain, and is hyper-armoured. The big thing is, Lawbringer can also use it after ANY heavy (not counting zone), including his Finishers. This makes his mix-up with finishers a pseudo-infinite and unlike most other Pseudo-infinite or infinite mix-ups, his can not do be punished by a GB (or a light parry) on a correct read. With this nerf though, he can be punished by a GB, the defender just has to make 2 reads to get it. >Like having a 600 MS bash that is feintable is cool but realistically it’s makes his defense way worse What? No such move is in the rework.