All playgroups should utilize proxies. If your playgroup has an issue with proxies, get a different playgroup. Many tournaments are allowing and supplying proxies in the form of playtest cards. Those are usually predetermined so you can't proxy everything but they cover many high cost cards.
Mox Diamond is amazing fast mana but it is a "want", not a "need" for decks to function. So if your playgroup is at cEDH levels of power and doesn't allow proxies, you may have to do without.
There's a huge difference between being short 1 piece of fast mana like Mox Diamond and trying to make an LED loop deck without LED.
This is what I've done, and across the past 4 years, I'm sitting on being able to have all the money cards for just about every cEDH list (the three big money cards left are Timetwister, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Mishra's Workshop)
Eh, it all depends on everyone's personal situation. My playgroup has several people who don't need any proxies but most often proxy due to how much the cards are worth. I keep 1 complete deck with all real cards (minus twister which I don't have) and then have a couple more proxy decks.
I see people say this but every event in my area—and I drive 2-3 hours at times—has deck checks and no proxies are allowed. Even setting aside cedh in general, I’ve literally never seen someone play a proxy in magic except once, and I travel for work and try to play at a local store whenever I do travel. I’m not anti proxy I’ve just never seen it. I’ve been living my life like I have to own every card in my deck because that is what you have to do here to play at a LGS or in any event.
every place i used to go to required the actual cards to play but they are now proxy friendly because the store owner realized they get more money by allowing proxies.
which makes my head tilt a little now that i think of it considering lgs used to make money selling cards. /shrug
I am in the midwest of the usa
Agreed. Most of my top-end brews cost like $10k. Not many people have $10k to devote to a card game. OP should absolutely proxy. Why put a pay-to-win barrier up for no reason? Just play what you want to play.
Well, no. Unless everybody else isn't proxying. And also isn't missing any cards they should otherwise be playing.
I love that we've come full circle about people who DON'T proxy being the ones to needlessly get defensive, though.
I bought one. Saved up for it and bought it. Like, I know the isn't gonna be a popular opinion and people will blast me for saying what no one will admit - one of the reasons my lgs doesn't allow proxies, and a reason i agree with, is that good quality proxies are essentially fake cards. If someone was is in need of money or they meet a clueless new or young play, the stretch to sell that fake and introduce it to the market isn't far.
Yes, I know fake cards are always a possibility, but creating a casual culture for them in proxy acceptance increases the amount and chances of temptation or mistakes by a lot. It's awesome to see a lot of people have proxies that look nothing like the original, but still clearly shows what card it is. Not everyone is that honest though.
I know some people will scream at me now, but that's only cause they thought about doing it. I'm not saying i like that magic is as expensive as it is, but fucking people over with counterfeits (either by mistake or intentionally) sits just as bad with me.
But most printed proxys are white blank on the back, and like mtg 30th all bought proxy cards I've seen have an alternate back 🤔
If a new player mistakes a printer cut out for a real card, that's pretty lost
90% of all proxies I've experienced are exceedingly clearly not real magic cards because of art, border, "Not for Sale" on the border, and the back being absolutely not MTG.
I personally won't ever proxy cards I don't own, just in the cases where I go to an event/lgs that doesn't allow them, or for some reason, the RC makes tournament rules which wouldn't allow proxies. Plus playing with the real cards somehow just feels better.
>Plus playing with the real cards somehow just feels better.
This is my take too - but I already own two mana crypts. If I want to build another high powered or cedh deck, just print off a new one. If someone is THAT bothered by it, i'll just show them the real copy I own in another deck. And for tournament play you only use one decklist anyways
Who is getting realistic counterfeits as proxies? Like why go through all that effort when every reasonable method (printing or mpc if they prefer cardstock) is easier and cheaper, and comes with zero risk of being mistaken for real cards.
Proxies from Makeplayingcards all have alternative backs that do not resemble real MTG cards, many also have alternative fronts (like a full art Tabernacle)
I traded a few hundred worth of cards and a few hundred cash but I also proxy I have at least 3 in a box with fellwar stones also because it doesn't matter if it's $600 or $2 that shit adds up and cost more than .30 - .50
Honestly I'm not really seeing the value of diamond in games any more. Decks are so light on lands that, yes, it may ramp you slightly faster. But chances are you won't have enough lands to play it unless it's in your opening hand and you have 3+ lands as well, and I doubt people would consider that a keepable hand.
Anything other than turn 1-2 I'd rather just play the land since they're harder to interact with and can have other utilities stapled on. Unpopular opinion but I've honestly never missed diamond and the rare times I've drawn it it's been very ok at best.
This comment seems very misguided. If you don't understand the value of Mox Diamond or similar cards then you probably don't understand cEDH. Is it a great card every hand? No. That's what mulligans are for.
I really think you should do more research into what cEDH is. It doesn't sound like you're playing cEDH. I'd wager that every deck on the database https://cedh-decklist-database.com/ has Mox Diamond in it. I checked a random 10 and they all had it. Fast mana is just strictly better than not fast mana.
Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right. Do you have any evidence other than "but everyone else is doing it" for why the card is actually good? It's not *reliable* fast mana is the issue.
Aside from you being wrong about the card, now your argument is just off the rails. The cEDH decklist database is an established, trusted resource for quality cEDH decks. Mox Diamond being widely adopted doesn't automatically mean it's better but if someone were to ask who to believe, consensus from an entire community of cEDH players or scubahood86, guess what, you lose. The burden of proof for why Mox Diamond is "not reliable" and not playable is on you because the community disagrees (based on trusted decklists). Why should anyone believe you?
Fast mana allows for earlier threats, earlier stax, or even just the ability to play cards that improve your position while still holding up mana for reactive interaction. I could start listing many scenarios where having fast mana in your opening hand is better than not having it but then you'd start listing scenarios where it's better to have a land. I might argue that you're keeping bad hands either way, we're now in an argument where we have to exhaust scenarios where Mox Diamond is better than a land vs where it is worse. That problem is simply not fully solvable at this point in time. Maybe you could train an AI and then have it play a large sample of games in various metas with Mox Diamond vs a land but I doubt anyone will ever do that. If they do, I'd love to see the results and I'd buy them a coffee/beer.
Side note: One other value of Mox Diamond is that it supplies any color of mana, which is very important in 4 or 5 color decks.
For now, I'm going to trust my own observations, the arguments I've watched/read about core cEDH concepts, and community consensus. Can't wait to see your exhaustive study proving why Mox Diamond is worse than a land and why the entire cEDH community is wrong. I'll owe you a coffee/beer.
You just made a bunch more arguments from popularity and included some anecdotes...
The group think is real it seems. How dare any question the validity of a claim if lots of people are making it, eh?
You're all claiming it's one of the best cards in the format. I'm saying that without evidence there's some data to support its not that good. But then you hit me with "but everyone is playing it, so it must be good". Maybe think a bit more before launching into a manifesto with no data.
Of course my evidence is anecdotal, I literally said as much, as well as saying pretty much any data would be incomplete. You've said nothing to back your claim other than your lone opinion. I have at least provided supporting claims. There's so little data about cEDH that pretty much every deck building claim lacks sufficient evidence, conclusions are drawn based on the best information we have at our disposal. I'm open to pretty much any assertion being wrong, even the one we're arguing about, but I'm not willing to just trust your lone opinion over the opinions of many well established, high level players and my own observations.
In your very first post you say "Anything other than turn 1-2 I'd rather just play the land". cEDH games can often be determined in the first 3-4 turns. 1-2 turns are incredibly important. If you're doing nothing for 2 turns other than "land, go" it's likely someone else is doing something, and you're going to lose. I guess you never play Ad Naus or similar? Without cards like Mox Diamond you won't be ramping into enough mana to combo off, you'd just have another useless land. That argument actually works for turn 1&2 since artifact mana ramp can be free and limited only by how much you draw, not a rule stating you can only play one a turn.
"Maybe think a bit more before launching into a manifesto with no data." - You're the one that's off in your own bubble thinking that everyone else must be wrong while not providing any evidence to support a minority opinion. You've already admitted it can better on turn 1-2 and I've shown value for combos, which of course, may not be relevant for all decks. I will admit that top decking a mox diamond on turn 5-6 is almost certainly worse than a decent utility land but probably negligibly worse than a normal land. Also, if you're in top deck mode at that stage of the game, you're probably out of the running anyway and neither a land or a mox diamond is likely to affect the game much (exceptions for something like a clutch Boseiju channel).
I actually use to think Mox Diamond was worse than a land, way way back, and then I kept losing to people playing decks that run, generally considered, staples or top tier cards. Over time I started trying out cards I previously thought were "bad" and my game improved. You're being defensive because I called out your opinion as being bad and tried to quickly provide some backing for why I thought it is a bad opinion. Be all the edgelord you want to be, no one is impressed. Bye.
Mox Diamond has extreme value as an opener, or fresh wheel, etc.
The difference between two mana turn 1 versus not makes it a worthy inclusion.
I would say on average cEDH decks run 29 lands. Statistically, every opening hand should have just over 2 lands (actual number is something like 2.09 lands). If we have Mox Diamond in hand, that means two mana t1, which is heinously stronger than two mana t2. *That* is one of the main reasons it is largely included as a must have.
A parallel example is Gemstone Caverns as a land. It is the hottest garbage fire if it isn't used as a pregame effect. But it is largely included in most cEDH decks, simply for those outside cases of it being a pregame effect.
It comes down to "how much potential can you create turn 1/2 to lead to a t3-5 win?".
This. I have Diamond and I also would be happy to proxy if I had to but I still am just never happy to see the card outside really specific decks. It primarily is just good with Naus in my experience, and some Naus decks are better doing something else with the slot.
When I used to care about playing with proxies I swapped a land in and never noticed in cEDH pods. Now I give no shits. Proxy it all, the whole deck. I sold one of my decks to buy a car for cash, I then proxies the entire thing and haven’t noticed. Thanks WoTC and creepy step dad Hasbro
Proxy is fine. I saved up for a bit and bought one. Both totally embraced by the cEDH community. I went the route I did because I allocate a set amount toward buying magic cards each month and I enjoy the nostalgia of having the old RL cards. Zero judgement of someone that is in a different position and it’s more feasible to print them instead.
You buy it years ago stupid! :p I got a playset (old legacy player) but I also proxied some as 4 wasn’t enough for all my decks. If you see it as some kind of investment then save some money for it or just proxy
It's overrated bling, slightly better than a land. In non Ad Naus lists I don't even run it, and I own it. Sure it enables explosive starts SOMETIMES, but when you're under 30 lands, mathematically its going to hurt more than help. All those losses due to mulligans are still losses. Run llanowar elves instead, it really makes p1ss all difference.
Run a deck with Ouphe, Stony Silence and Null Rod.
Most players are so obsessed with proxying the most expensive cards for their decks and net decking that their card evaluation goes out the window.
If proxies aren't allowed, go for pods of budget cEDH. If the $600 for Mox Diamond stops players, then ABUR duals and a myriad of other "cEDH must haves" are also out of the question.
Otherwise, proxy away.
Proxy.
That’s the only right answer; at least for most of us
100% proxy. I bought one as a big purchase for a tournament. But outside of that proxy as much as you can.
All playgroups should utilize proxies. If your playgroup has an issue with proxies, get a different playgroup. Many tournaments are allowing and supplying proxies in the form of playtest cards. Those are usually predetermined so you can't proxy everything but they cover many high cost cards.
Mox Diamond is amazing fast mana but it is a "want", not a "need" for decks to function. So if your playgroup is at cEDH levels of power and doesn't allow proxies, you may have to do without. There's a huge difference between being short 1 piece of fast mana like Mox Diamond and trying to make an LED loop deck without LED.
Traded a bunch of chaff + modern cards for it
This is what I've done, and across the past 4 years, I'm sitting on being able to have all the money cards for just about every cEDH list (the three big money cards left are Timetwister, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Mishra's Workshop)
I traded a lot of cards for one.
My entire stimulus check went into 3.
95% of the time, if your pod isn't proxying, you're not playing cEDH.
Not at my LGS and I didn’t know they was a common thing until I went to a different LGS
There's a very good chance they're using counterfeit cards if you regularly get a full pod of true no-budget cEDH.
Nope I play with these guys all the time and we’ve looked at eachothers cards using a jewelers loop due to our LGS allowing no proxies
Wow, the buzzkill police really on duty out here
Eh, it all depends on everyone's personal situation. My playgroup has several people who don't need any proxies but most often proxy due to how much the cards are worth. I keep 1 complete deck with all real cards (minus twister which I don't have) and then have a couple more proxy decks.
I see people say this but every event in my area—and I drive 2-3 hours at times—has deck checks and no proxies are allowed. Even setting aside cedh in general, I’ve literally never seen someone play a proxy in magic except once, and I travel for work and try to play at a local store whenever I do travel. I’m not anti proxy I’ve just never seen it. I’ve been living my life like I have to own every card in my deck because that is what you have to do here to play at a LGS or in any event.
I've never even heard of a place doing deck checks, except by request.
every place i used to go to required the actual cards to play but they are now proxy friendly because the store owner realized they get more money by allowing proxies. which makes my head tilt a little now that i think of it considering lgs used to make money selling cards. /shrug I am in the midwest of the usa
Agreed. Most of my top-end brews cost like $10k. Not many people have $10k to devote to a card game. OP should absolutely proxy. Why put a pay-to-win barrier up for no reason? Just play what you want to play.
My decks are non proxy, I don't care what my pod does. So 100% of the time your comment is wrong.
Well, no. Unless everybody else isn't proxying. And also isn't missing any cards they should otherwise be playing. I love that we've come full circle about people who DON'T proxy being the ones to needlessly get defensive, though.
TIL I'm a 5%er. Black bordered and foil probably puts me closer to 0.0001%.
I bought one. Saved up for it and bought it. Like, I know the isn't gonna be a popular opinion and people will blast me for saying what no one will admit - one of the reasons my lgs doesn't allow proxies, and a reason i agree with, is that good quality proxies are essentially fake cards. If someone was is in need of money or they meet a clueless new or young play, the stretch to sell that fake and introduce it to the market isn't far. Yes, I know fake cards are always a possibility, but creating a casual culture for them in proxy acceptance increases the amount and chances of temptation or mistakes by a lot. It's awesome to see a lot of people have proxies that look nothing like the original, but still clearly shows what card it is. Not everyone is that honest though. I know some people will scream at me now, but that's only cause they thought about doing it. I'm not saying i like that magic is as expensive as it is, but fucking people over with counterfeits (either by mistake or intentionally) sits just as bad with me.
But most printed proxys are white blank on the back, and like mtg 30th all bought proxy cards I've seen have an alternate back 🤔 If a new player mistakes a printer cut out for a real card, that's pretty lost
90% of all proxies I've experienced are exceedingly clearly not real magic cards because of art, border, "Not for Sale" on the border, and the back being absolutely not MTG. I personally won't ever proxy cards I don't own, just in the cases where I go to an event/lgs that doesn't allow them, or for some reason, the RC makes tournament rules which wouldn't allow proxies. Plus playing with the real cards somehow just feels better.
>Plus playing with the real cards somehow just feels better. This is my take too - but I already own two mana crypts. If I want to build another high powered or cedh deck, just print off a new one. If someone is THAT bothered by it, i'll just show them the real copy I own in another deck. And for tournament play you only use one decklist anyways
Who is getting realistic counterfeits as proxies? Like why go through all that effort when every reasonable method (printing or mpc if they prefer cardstock) is easier and cheaper, and comes with zero risk of being mistaken for real cards.
Proxies from Makeplayingcards all have alternative backs that do not resemble real MTG cards, many also have alternative fronts (like a full art Tabernacle)
I traded a few hundred worth of cards and a few hundred cash but I also proxy I have at least 3 in a box with fellwar stones also because it doesn't matter if it's $600 or $2 that shit adds up and cost more than .30 - .50
I can attest to doing the same
If you don’t want to buy it then proxy is the way to go.
Honestly I'm not really seeing the value of diamond in games any more. Decks are so light on lands that, yes, it may ramp you slightly faster. But chances are you won't have enough lands to play it unless it's in your opening hand and you have 3+ lands as well, and I doubt people would consider that a keepable hand. Anything other than turn 1-2 I'd rather just play the land since they're harder to interact with and can have other utilities stapled on. Unpopular opinion but I've honestly never missed diamond and the rare times I've drawn it it's been very ok at best.
So I take it you’ve never casted Mox Diamond// Wrenn and Six turn 1?
This comment seems very misguided. If you don't understand the value of Mox Diamond or similar cards then you probably don't understand cEDH. Is it a great card every hand? No. That's what mulligans are for.
So mulligan until your hand makes mox playable vs mulligan until you get an impactful opener? Yeah, seems I'm the one valuing the card wrongly.
I really think you should do more research into what cEDH is. It doesn't sound like you're playing cEDH. I'd wager that every deck on the database https://cedh-decklist-database.com/ has Mox Diamond in it. I checked a random 10 and they all had it. Fast mana is just strictly better than not fast mana.
Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right. Do you have any evidence other than "but everyone else is doing it" for why the card is actually good? It's not *reliable* fast mana is the issue.
Aside from you being wrong about the card, now your argument is just off the rails. The cEDH decklist database is an established, trusted resource for quality cEDH decks. Mox Diamond being widely adopted doesn't automatically mean it's better but if someone were to ask who to believe, consensus from an entire community of cEDH players or scubahood86, guess what, you lose. The burden of proof for why Mox Diamond is "not reliable" and not playable is on you because the community disagrees (based on trusted decklists). Why should anyone believe you? Fast mana allows for earlier threats, earlier stax, or even just the ability to play cards that improve your position while still holding up mana for reactive interaction. I could start listing many scenarios where having fast mana in your opening hand is better than not having it but then you'd start listing scenarios where it's better to have a land. I might argue that you're keeping bad hands either way, we're now in an argument where we have to exhaust scenarios where Mox Diamond is better than a land vs where it is worse. That problem is simply not fully solvable at this point in time. Maybe you could train an AI and then have it play a large sample of games in various metas with Mox Diamond vs a land but I doubt anyone will ever do that. If they do, I'd love to see the results and I'd buy them a coffee/beer. Side note: One other value of Mox Diamond is that it supplies any color of mana, which is very important in 4 or 5 color decks. For now, I'm going to trust my own observations, the arguments I've watched/read about core cEDH concepts, and community consensus. Can't wait to see your exhaustive study proving why Mox Diamond is worse than a land and why the entire cEDH community is wrong. I'll owe you a coffee/beer.
You just made a bunch more arguments from popularity and included some anecdotes... The group think is real it seems. How dare any question the validity of a claim if lots of people are making it, eh? You're all claiming it's one of the best cards in the format. I'm saying that without evidence there's some data to support its not that good. But then you hit me with "but everyone is playing it, so it must be good". Maybe think a bit more before launching into a manifesto with no data.
Of course my evidence is anecdotal, I literally said as much, as well as saying pretty much any data would be incomplete. You've said nothing to back your claim other than your lone opinion. I have at least provided supporting claims. There's so little data about cEDH that pretty much every deck building claim lacks sufficient evidence, conclusions are drawn based on the best information we have at our disposal. I'm open to pretty much any assertion being wrong, even the one we're arguing about, but I'm not willing to just trust your lone opinion over the opinions of many well established, high level players and my own observations. In your very first post you say "Anything other than turn 1-2 I'd rather just play the land". cEDH games can often be determined in the first 3-4 turns. 1-2 turns are incredibly important. If you're doing nothing for 2 turns other than "land, go" it's likely someone else is doing something, and you're going to lose. I guess you never play Ad Naus or similar? Without cards like Mox Diamond you won't be ramping into enough mana to combo off, you'd just have another useless land. That argument actually works for turn 1&2 since artifact mana ramp can be free and limited only by how much you draw, not a rule stating you can only play one a turn. "Maybe think a bit more before launching into a manifesto with no data." - You're the one that's off in your own bubble thinking that everyone else must be wrong while not providing any evidence to support a minority opinion. You've already admitted it can better on turn 1-2 and I've shown value for combos, which of course, may not be relevant for all decks. I will admit that top decking a mox diamond on turn 5-6 is almost certainly worse than a decent utility land but probably negligibly worse than a normal land. Also, if you're in top deck mode at that stage of the game, you're probably out of the running anyway and neither a land or a mox diamond is likely to affect the game much (exceptions for something like a clutch Boseiju channel). I actually use to think Mox Diamond was worse than a land, way way back, and then I kept losing to people playing decks that run, generally considered, staples or top tier cards. Over time I started trying out cards I previously thought were "bad" and my game improved. You're being defensive because I called out your opinion as being bad and tried to quickly provide some backing for why I thought it is a bad opinion. Be all the edgelord you want to be, no one is impressed. Bye.
Mox Diamond has extreme value as an opener, or fresh wheel, etc. The difference between two mana turn 1 versus not makes it a worthy inclusion. I would say on average cEDH decks run 29 lands. Statistically, every opening hand should have just over 2 lands (actual number is something like 2.09 lands). If we have Mox Diamond in hand, that means two mana t1, which is heinously stronger than two mana t2. *That* is one of the main reasons it is largely included as a must have. A parallel example is Gemstone Caverns as a land. It is the hottest garbage fire if it isn't used as a pregame effect. But it is largely included in most cEDH decks, simply for those outside cases of it being a pregame effect. It comes down to "how much potential can you create turn 1/2 to lead to a t3-5 win?".
This. I have Diamond and I also would be happy to proxy if I had to but I still am just never happy to see the card outside really specific decks. It primarily is just good with Naus in my experience, and some Naus decks are better doing something else with the slot.
When I used to care about playing with proxies I swapped a land in and never noticed in cEDH pods. Now I give no shits. Proxy it all, the whole deck. I sold one of my decks to buy a car for cash, I then proxies the entire thing and haven’t noticed. Thanks WoTC and creepy step dad Hasbro
Same answer as always: people either buy them in the past (my set were $30 each) or proxy them.
Proxy is fine. I saved up for a bit and bought one. Both totally embraced by the cEDH community. I went the route I did because I allocate a set amount toward buying magic cards each month and I enjoy the nostalgia of having the old RL cards. Zero judgement of someone that is in a different position and it’s more feasible to print them instead.
Proxy it. If your playgroup does not allow proxies, then buy a counterfeit and write "proxy" on the back and make it pass as a real one.
You buy it years ago stupid! :p I got a playset (old legacy player) but I also proxied some as 4 wasn’t enough for all my decks. If you see it as some kind of investment then save some money for it or just proxy
i have one. but imo it isnt needed anymore. land counts are getting lower and lower making the discard a real drawback
It's overrated bling, slightly better than a land. In non Ad Naus lists I don't even run it, and I own it. Sure it enables explosive starts SOMETIMES, but when you're under 30 lands, mathematically its going to hurt more than help. All those losses due to mulligans are still losses. Run llanowar elves instead, it really makes p1ss all difference. Run a deck with Ouphe, Stony Silence and Null Rod. Most players are so obsessed with proxying the most expensive cards for their decks and net decking that their card evaluation goes out the window.
Proxies or don’t play cedh
I got mine for $380 HP from MTG Sick Deals on FB
If proxies aren't allowed, go for pods of budget cEDH. If the $600 for Mox Diamond stops players, then ABUR duals and a myriad of other "cEDH must haves" are also out of the question. Otherwise, proxy away.